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Full Version: Flechette ammo, am I missing something?
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Crusher Bob
Even 300 rounds can go really fast, depending on what you need to do with them, any sort of close combat (in a city, for example) will burn through ammo like no tomorrow.
Look at it this way, in my example I had 46 rounds on me with my pistol setup. If I was a shadowrunner and wanted to do a run I would probably still keep my pistol and its fixings, maybe throw on 2 more mags of 15 rounds (total 76 on pistol) and for my main weapon I would go with an assault rifle (ares alpha) which can burn ammo fast so I would have at least a total of 4 extra mags (total 240 rounds in rifle==316 rounds total)
Since it was an alpha I would have a couple mags of grenades (+12==328).

This seems extremely normal to me, I don't think I am packing on to much. I am not sure the exact amounts real life soldiers take into battle, but I am sure they have at least 300 rounds, or a way of getting more quickly.

This of course is for the "run" when resistance is anticapated. I don't have my character stroll down the street with this, I would probably just have the 46 rounds and a pistol for casual times. But I don't think the example of suppresive fire was casual times, since the character had a full-auto weapon on him.

Another point I want to bring up, anyone hit by a fireball is not going to be happy. Regardless of how much ammo they have and if ammo really does "blow up" when it is in fire. I always play characters that fireproof their ammo pouches and packs so I know it is an issue, but in our games usaully only when explosive rounds are involved.

Last point, if you have an issue with 300 rounds. I'm sure since you mentioned you have shot and cleaned guns you have seen the standard 50 rnd box of ammo, its only 6 of those...not that much to have on you if you look at it like that....
If I recall correctly, the modern day soldier who carries the SAW has a 200 round box attached to the weapon and a pair (possibly three) spare boxes of 200 rounds each for a total of 600 to 800 rounds of ammunition. I'm sure the military buffs or soldier folks out there could say the exact amount, but I think what I've said here is accurate.

Pertaining to flechette ammunition. Reading some of the old descriptions of the ammunition makes you wanna scratch your head. From the way it is worded, the flechette ammo described is completely ineffective beyond about 15 feet or so. The flechettes spread out into an extraordinarily large spray pattern and are largely ineffective in damaging tissue. I have told my players that flechettes don't work like they describe. Instead they are an advanced frangible (similar to that MP round mentioned in an earlier post via a link) that breaks apart upon impact with a target and spreads to create a larger number of smaller wound channels. That's the basics of it, and I am in no way an authority on firearms or ammunition (despite my name tag), so anyone who can poke holes in my version please do. I don't mind learning a thing or two.
SAW gunners also distribute extra boxes to their squad mates, generally 2-3 a piece. Also, most SAW gunners Ive talked to prefer to have 4-6 boxes on their person, though only 2 are likely to be on the harness, with the rest in the pack.
Another thing that really gets to me is that I see no firefight lasting more than a few seconds. Sure weapons can throw hundreds of rounds a minute to over a thosaund a minute, but that would be continual firing. If your firefight outlasts 300 rounds of ammo, then something is not right.

A firefight should not be a primary thing in a run. If you have to fire a gun in the first place, something went wrong.
There are so many things wrong with that post, I don't even know where to begin.

Start at the beginning. It's the most common place to start.
Akimbo, I think this all boils down to play-style. I have a feeling that yours is a more covert style of play where the runs involve sneaking around, conning people, and working more "spy" style. Thats cool if it is.

But it's not the only way to play shadowrun. Some folks play mercenarys kinda like the fields of fire referenced to. Some of these folks use fully automatic weapons in tactical gunfights and carry around big-old guns and the fixins. Theres nothing wrong with either, if there was there wouldn't be anything beyond pistols in the gear section....

To address the firefights lasting a few seconds, I agree. In RL there are many police shootings that last a few tragic seconds, but when they do, most of the time the people involved burn all the ammo in the gun. These are also one on one confrontations, in a firefight with battle trained indivivduals and multiple enemies you could easily see that a person could burn that much ammo...
I actually have a very combat-oriented character. It's a gun adept. The fact of the matter is that my experiences playing paintball and airsoft have proved that a lot of ammo is wasted during a skirmish. However, I only go through a few hundred rounds in a single day. At no more than 10 cents a round, I can call it a good day. However, spending a few nuyen per round is horrible. But in a lot of runs, I often see myself avoiding fights at all costs. We have a street sam who hasn't attacked a single person since we started SR4. Usually what happens is that the wrong person for the wrong scenario shows up. In other words, the fighters get caught up in thinking and the social, stealth, and hacking folks find themselves in a fight.
One of the reasons firefights in SR tend to be over in seconds is that they're usually at pretty close quarters. It's easy to see a full fledged battle lasting many minutes, but at a hundred yards or more there tends to be a lot more wiggle room.
In Akimbo's defense, I generally consider a shadowrun to be successful if no one but the runners and the Johnson even know it happened. For the most part, the combats I've seen have been extremely quick and extremely brutal so my playerbase tends to avoid open engagement whenever possible.

That said, this is an action game. There's a whole lotta stuff in the book that lets you do very diverse and horrible things to the other guy. Shadowrun wouldn't be very much fun if it was about as violent as a brisk game of checkers.

So, yeah, it's a playstyle thing. One of the strengths of this particular game setting is that you can accomplish your goals in a gazillion different ways, each of which is potentially viable as long as you're willing to endure the consequences.

In normal city fight scenarios, you bring atleast 10 mags of ammo, + a stack of grenades, clearing rooms chews ammo like no tomorrow.. (300+ rounds)

firefights where cover is availible will last more than a coupple of seconds, several minutes infact, and during that time there wont be shooting all the time, half the time is hugging cover and moving, and someone laying down surpressive fire.

And firing 200-300 rounds in a very short span of time(ie, empty clip change, empty clip, change, empty clip, change empty clip and so on) will get your weapon VERY hot, but but it wont affect performance that much., tho in the long run it will wear out the barrel faster, but then we are talking about tens of thousands of rounds.. and loose perhaps 5000-10000 rounds depending on the barrel.. And depending on the weapon you don't even have to clean the weapon afterwards, the Swedish AK5(based on the russian or was it the german AK models fail to remember.) can be used for like 3-6 months without cleaning and it still works ok. But I as a soldier would do maintinence on the gun when I can, because a jamed gun can equal a dead soldier most of the time.

Then we get to shadowrun, some ppl like long firefights, some ppl like covert ops, neither is wrong.

Peace.. =)
Just as a note, what kind of Shadowrunner is clearing rooms, and why are they doing it with ammo and grenades?

Unless you are playing specifically mercenary, destroy/clear this facility we don't care who knows it was destroyed type runs I can't see any other where you would clear rooms, especially not with ammo or grenades. That is obscene as far as noise goes. Way to much for you to be hired in anything but the most destabilized and high risk situations.
If that's the game you play, go for it. Can't see where a corp would be hiring you though. Maybe, imitating ecoterrorists taking out a nuke plant or something.

In my games that I played, the guns were just in case, but they ended up being used. Oddly enough, when my shaman focused on noncombat joined, I managed to leverage two undetected and noncombat runs off.
Of course, others ended up with lots of crazy. Or just a misstep from the wrong security guard. He was put down as fast as possible, preferably melee.

Then there was the spirits, which was loud. Then there was the end of the world. That was loud too.
QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist @ Dec 1 2005, 12:10 PM)
Just as a note, what kind of Shadowrunner is clearing rooms, and why are they doing it with ammo and grenades?

Of course, but that was not Shadowrun related, I was speaking RL terms.

SR runs tend to be more hush hush jobs and such as tossing a nade or two will screw your run more often than not because of lonestar getting there ASAP (depending on the area ofc) not to mention the corps on security. But if the run goes bad, you would want to carry enough firepower to get your ass out of there.

Oh, and Ill add that carrying a LMG with 500 rounds aint that uncommon, nor bad for someone who aint 100% fit. LMG = 10-12kg, ammo prolly 3-5kg per 250 rounds(7,62). including the metal belt.
Now I'm scared to go to Sweden.

I thought you guys were only allowed to have hot blondes, fun massages, and tasty meatballs? What's with the ordinance? smile.gif
In the army of course.. cyber.gif
Yeah it was mainly the grenade use that threw me. wink.gif

I personally am of the opinion that as long as you can hide it or don't need to hide it, carrying a boatload of ammo isn't much of a problem.

I generally don't let my characters go on a run without at least four clips for each "main use" weapon, and two clips for any secondary weapons. As well as a grenade or two of various types for just in case situations.

Except for my non combat character, who didn't carry a gun and actually used slip spray in liter bottles. Those were fun times.
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