Okay, so a force 5 isn't quite as noticable, but it's still pretty darned high up there in power. So maybe beings without the ability to pierce the masking will look at you funny as opposed to with extreme reactions.
The mage is still entirely conspicuous in any case. She's still going to be utterly incapable of being subtle astrally; it's just an issue of how far away she's noticed. There isn't a single astrally perceiving Lone Star cop that isn't going to look into it further, for example.
Also, you go on a run, and someone notices you. How many people are there in your city, again, that run around with quickened force 5/10 spells on them? Not that many, I imagine. You'll be easy to make, and easy to track down (just look for the guy on astral that glows like a lighthouse).
And remember, no matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style. (Or in the case of SR3, a Barret Model 121 to the back of the head...)
This mage is a walking calling card. Just keep that in mind.
Full Version: Practical Flight
| QUOTE (Vaevictis) |
| (just look for the guy on astral that glows like a lighthouse). |
When you find me a quote in the SR3 rules that says a mage with many spells on him glows like a lighthouse, I'd accept that.
Couple of things...
First of all, as Torturi says, I'd like to see an actual canon quote stating that a mage "glows like a lighthouse" or words to that effect, just because they have spells sustained (which really is all Quickening does). Even before I started Quickening, I typically had from 2-5 spells sustained on either myself or my teammates, and I was hardly alone in that respect.
Two, Force 5 spell is not "pretty darned high", at least not from our campaign experience. In fact, it's pretty darned gimpy as far as I've seen. Consider that every starting two-bit mage out there has most of his primary spells (at least anything he expects to cast against another person) at Force 6. If he doesn't, he won't last long in the Shadows.
Three, how common is Quickening? I'd say that any mage Grade 4 or better at least has the Metamagic technique, if not actively using it (again, from my campaign experiences, both with Doc and previous games). It's simply too powerful to completely ignore. Quickening spells like Increase Reflex 3 are the single easiest way for a mage to at least keep up with his Samurai bretheren. I will grant you that my character is using it more actively and at higher force than many other mages; that was a choice I made that has both pluses and minuses.
Does it have drawbacks? Obviously. So does having most of the cyberware in SR3, most of which is also highly illegal (if you're going to bring Lone Star into this). The Barret 121 you are calling for having my shaman capped with is also a "walking calling card", in case you haven't noticed.
First of all, as Torturi says, I'd like to see an actual canon quote stating that a mage "glows like a lighthouse" or words to that effect, just because they have spells sustained (which really is all Quickening does). Even before I started Quickening, I typically had from 2-5 spells sustained on either myself or my teammates, and I was hardly alone in that respect.
Two, Force 5 spell is not "pretty darned high", at least not from our campaign experience. In fact, it's pretty darned gimpy as far as I've seen. Consider that every starting two-bit mage out there has most of his primary spells (at least anything he expects to cast against another person) at Force 6. If he doesn't, he won't last long in the Shadows.
Three, how common is Quickening? I'd say that any mage Grade 4 or better at least has the Metamagic technique, if not actively using it (again, from my campaign experiences, both with Doc and previous games). It's simply too powerful to completely ignore. Quickening spells like Increase Reflex 3 are the single easiest way for a mage to at least keep up with his Samurai bretheren. I will grant you that my character is using it more actively and at higher force than many other mages; that was a choice I made that has both pluses and minuses.
Does it have drawbacks? Obviously. So does having most of the cyberware in SR3, most of which is also highly illegal (if you're going to bring Lone Star into this). The Barret 121 you are calling for having my shaman capped with is also a "walking calling card", in case you haven't noticed.
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
First of all, as Torturi says, I'd like to see an actual canon quote stating that a mage "glows like a lighthouse" or words to that effect. |
Can't give you one right now . I know I read it in at least one or two Shadowrun books, but it could have been in any of them, including the novels.
And it's not the number of spells that are the issue. It's the force of the spells. A few low level sustained spells aren't going to raise any eyebrows. At force 4+ people start to notice, especially as force >3 is illegal.
An example is astral patrolling (MitS.89), where per 2 force points of spells and foci, an astral patroller gets -1TN to notice you. That one levitation spell is going to give a -2TN to find you on astral patrol (a pretty big difference). I assume you have more spells, right? I can see you becoming impossible to miss in short order.
That's about the closest to a canon "lit like a lighthouse" I can give you. In the original scenario I read, we were talking about crossing borders while flying -- open terrain, another -4TN, spirit with search -2TN {wind spirit}, possibly multiple spirits at -1TN each. The area size is not much of an impediment, as if you are only really concerned with people crossing a border, the cross section can be thin and the length long (ie, .1 meters wide, 800k meters long = 80k square meters, for example. Ticky-tacky on the interpretation of the table, but that's math for you).
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
Two, Force 5 spell is not "pretty darned high"... In fact, it's pretty darned gimpy as far as I've seen. Consider that every starting two-bit mage out there has most of his primary spells ... at Force 6. |
I wouldn't suggest using the fact that "every starting two-bit (Shadowrunner) mage" has it as a good reason for why it's not powerful. In case you haven't noticed, starting characters in Shadowrun can be very powerful in their particular specialties.
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
Does it have drawbacks? Obviously. So does having most of the cyberware in SR3, most of which is also highly illegal (if you're going to bring Lone Star into this). |
Keep in mind that at Force 5, your spell has a legality code of 3P-T. Go take a look in the books and see what kind of items are comparable. Wired 3. Hand Razors (spurs, etc). Kink bombs. Combat Axes. BTLs. Almost any grenade. Things that are less likely to get you unwanted attention -- basically any firearm smaller than an assault rifle (including SMGs, with the exception of the Ruger Thunderbolt), flame throwers, burst-fire capable shotguns, any non-sniper rifle, most melee weapons. Getting the picture?
You are the astral equivelent of a guy walking down the street with cyber-spurs extended. How often is Lone Star really going to let that pass in civilized areas? Sure, not every beat cop can see the aura, but those that can are very likely to respond.
(And to be fair, I'd say the same thing about being a "walking calling card" for those cyber-monsters that have the non-retractable spurs, dermal plating and obvious cyberskull, for example)
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
In the original scenario I read, we were talking about crossing borders while flying -- open terrain, another -4TN, spirit with search -2TN {wind spirit}, possibly multiple spirits at -1TN each. The area size is not much of an impediment, as if you are only really concerned with people crossing a border, the cross section can be thin and the length long <snip>
That is why I suggested approaching the border, sneaking across where the terrain isn't 'open' and then resuming flight.
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
<snip> (ie, .1 meters wide, 800k meters long = 80k square meters, for example. Ticky-tacky on the interpretation of the table, but that's math for you).
I would disagree with this interpretation, unless you only plan on patrolling the height of a standard floor in a building. Otherwise, I would say the width in your calculation should be the standard floor height, and the length and height of the patrolled area gets multiplied to arrive at a search area.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| That is why I suggested approaching the border, sneking across where the terrain isn't 'open' and then resuming flight. |
Except you don't necessarily know exactly where the search pattern is. Anyone who cares will layer the patrol at random intervals so that you there is some uncertainty.
Can she sneak across a border? I suppose so. But it's harder than if she didn't have such high force spells quickened. And if she wants to fly, it gets much, much harder because of the whole open terrain/wind spirit thing.
The real issue is whether or not the place she's sneaking into cares enough to have proper spiritual security on hand. It's not a matter of whether it's possible or not (it is), it's a matter of whether they're willing to spend that many resources on the job. UCAS border? Probably not. Ares research facility? (Keeping in mind that that is a border also) Most definately.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| I would disagree with this interpretation, unless you only plan on patrolling the height of a standard floor in a building. Otherwise, I would say the width in your calculation should be the standard floor height, and the length and height of the patrolled area gets multiplied to arrive at a search area. |
shrug, that's the problem with defining rules by area instead of volume. Area is a two dimensional space, and so it's up to GM interpretation by nature. If we're talking about a wind spirit, for example, it makes no sense that they would be bound in any fashion by how tall your standard floor is. Hearth, maybe. Wind? No way. Personally, I would be inclined to limit the height to the spirit's typical domain. Jungle spirit's patrol ends at the treeline, earth elemental's covers only those things touching the ground, etc. Wind, well, a wind spirit's domain is as high as the sky
That aside, I still think the most important thing is the whole "calling card" effect. How many mages in Seattle have a force 5 (10 if you can pierce masking) levitation spell quickened on them? This rapidly approaches something like "distinctive style" or "astral impressions" territory, IMO.
Another thing that would have to be asked is, given that "prolonged magical activity" in an area can cause a background count, does her domicile have the potential to accumulate one?
| QUOTE (Vaevictis) |
| Keep in mind that at Force 5, your spell has a legality code of 3P-T. Go take a look in the books and see what kind of items are comparable. Wired 3. Hand Razors (spurs, etc). Kink bombs. Combat Axes. BTLs. Almost any grenade. Things that are less likely to get you unwanted attention -- basically any firearm smaller than an assault rifle (including SMGs, with the exception of the Ruger Thunderbolt), flame throwers, burst-fire capable shotguns, any non-sniper rifle, most melee weapons. Getting the picture? You are the astral equivelent of a guy walking down the street with cyber-spurs extended. How often is Lone Star really going to let that pass in civilized areas? Sure, not every beat cop can see the aura, but those that can are very likely to respond. (And to be fair, I'd say the same thing about being a "walking calling card" for those cyber-monsters that have the non-retractable spurs, dermal plating and obvious cyberskull, for example) |
Your other points are interesting. I admit I don't read the SR fiction, so I can't comment on that. As for this though, every single sammy in our campaign has Wired 2 (or better), Assault rifles (Ares Alpha is the preferred), and multiple grenades. Most of them carry ExEx and APDS. A couple carry HMGs, LMGs, Panther Cannons and Sniper-class rifles (when the situation warrants it). Other carry Claymores and at least 1 carries an ATGM Launcher and missiles. No one has a Ruger but someone in the campaign is already gunning for it.
To be fair, most of this isn't when we're simply walking the streets; these would be when we were on combat-related runs and usually in the dark of night or in remote locations.
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
To be fair, most of this isn't when we're simply walking the streets; these would be when we were on combat-related runs and usually in the dark of night or in remote locations. |
That's kind of my point. These guys can put away (or at least conceal) most of that gear when it's called for. Your quickened spell, on the other hand, is always there.
A close analogy to your quickened spells in the -ware world would be stuff like wired reflexes or retracted spurs. The main point is that you now have a very similar weakness -- you're constantly carrying around something that is blatantly illegal, and is *obvious* to anyone with the ability to astrally perceive. From time to time, the wrong people are going to notice, and it's going to be inconvenient at best.
I would also comment that when someone is scanning for cyberware, it's generally (but not always) more obvious than if they're just assensing you and noticing the spell. Someone walks up to you with a wand that beeps? You notice. Someone in a crowded bar looking at you, not so much.
But there are a lot fewer people out there with the awakened abilities to assense you. However, anyone can use a wand or door scanner system. But then again, I don't think that's the issue (hell, I don't even know what the issue is anymore... 
)
)
| QUOTE (brohopcp @ Nov 15 2005, 02:27 PM) |
| But there are a lot fewer people out there with the awakened abilities to assense you. |
Absolutely. Shadowrunners seem to run into them with abnormal frequency, however
The original post was asking for potential issues with having a force 10 levitation quickened on a mage, and was initially interested primarily in those associated with actual flight.
The discussion has kind of morphed into a "problems with having higher force spells quickened on you" discussion.
Actually, another question. Exactly what target number were you casting against when you initially cast the quickened spell? This effectively becomes a limit on how much weight your levitate spell can move, yes?
Also, you guys were discussing physical barrier as a protection method for the mage. I was always under the impression that physical barrier was immobile. Is that not the case?
I was under that impression as well, but was unable to find a quote to back it up.
~J
~J
Physical Barrier, like all sustained area spells, is mobile. You can expend a Complex Action to move it anywhere within your LOS.
| QUOTE (Vaevictis @ Nov 15 2005, 06:57 PM) |
| ... especially as force >3 is illegal. |
Over Force 2.
| QUOTE |
| a legality code of 3P-T. |
You are aware that the 'P' in that code means that a permit is attainable. If people are able to aquire permits, then casual magic use isn't necessarily always considered illegal or questionable by the authorities.
It's worth noting that even with a permit, you're still going to get stopped by the cops - they won't know about your permit until they question you. Depending on the situation, getting detained by the police can range from being a minor inconvenience to an extremely deadly encounter.
Sometimes, but my point was that it not an automatic occurance that you will always be stopped and questioned for using magic publically.
IIRC, your chances of being stopped and questioned for carrying a restricted article are the same regardless of whether or not a permit is obtainable for the said article, assuming that the legality code remains constant. A permit just means you'll be able to walk away afterwards.
It also depends on the area. I really don't see every single Corp Wage Mage with sustained or quickened spells (or even those just performing magic in public) being stopped dozens of times a day. It is inefficient.
Conversely, nobody from the 'Star is going to give a damn if you want to wander around Glow City with 15 Force 10 spells wrapped around your body.
Conversely, nobody from the 'Star is going to give a damn if you want to wander around Glow City with 15 Force 10 spells wrapped around your body.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 16 2005, 12:35 AM) |
| Sometimes, but my point was that it not an automatic occurance that you will always be stopped and questioned for using magic publically. |
With a TN of 3 on Security/Police Procedures, it's exceedingly likely.
Given the low number of mages and the high possibility of damage from them, I argue it absolutely is efficient to at least ask for a permit from every mage visibly performing restricted magic.
~J
If you've got 15 Force 10 spells sustained/quickened on you, I imagine that Lone Star's official policy is going to be to get the hell out of Dodge and let the inevitable dragon-related complications take place.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| It also depends on the area. I really don't see every single Corp Wage Mage with sustained or quickened spells (or even those just performing magic in public) being stopped dozens of times a day. It is inefficient. |
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Given the low number of mages and the high possibility of damage from them, I argue it absolutely is efficient to at least ask for a permit from every mage visibly performing restricted magic. |
I'd have to agree with Kag on this one, depending on the context. Personally, I just replace "quickened spell" with "firearm" and try to judge contemporary reactions. In other words, if (hypothetically) a 2005-era city mayor is walking down the street flanked by a pair of dark-suited goons with clearly-visible (though holstered) weapons, I doubt any cops or security personnel will interfere. Given that by 2050 corporate execs are important officials, I think this analogy is a fair one.
If the same dark-suited goon is walking down the street alone with a clearly-visible (though holstered) weapon, I'm sure a police officer will stop them and ask for a permit.
Five pages on how to hose a player for using completely cannon stuff in exactly the way it was meant to be used.
Wow.
At least I now know that although crossing a border in any other way is usually a fairly easy task, don't try it as a single levitating human or you will instantly be attacked by everything the host country has to throw at you. You know, because you are much easier to notice than a 10 ton vehicle made of metal being kept aloft only by it's gigantic engines producing unbelievable amounts of down-thrust.
Wow.
At least I now know that although crossing a border in any other way is usually a fairly easy task, don't try it as a single levitating human or you will instantly be attacked by everything the host country has to throw at you. You know, because you are much easier to notice than a 10 ton vehicle made of metal being kept aloft only by it's gigantic engines producing unbelievable amounts of down-thrust.
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| Five pages on how to hose a player for using completely cannon stuff in exactly the way it was meant to be used. Wow. At least I now know that although crossing a border in any other way is usually a fairly easy task, don't try it as a single levitating human or you will instantly be attacked by everything the host country has to throw at you. You know, because you are much easier to notice than a 10 ton vehicle made of metal being kept aloft only by it's gigantic engines producing unbelievable amounts of down-thrust. |
Another wildly over-exagerrated sarcastic comment on Dumpshock.
Wow.
The point I see here Bearclaw, is that the player using said cannon stuff in exactly the way it was meant to be used seemed to think that they could do so repeatedly and with impunity, and the general agreement on these boards is "No, lots of things could go wrong with that plan, and here are a few examples."
Once again, the conversation dissolves into what a GM can or can't do and still be considered "fair." While we're at it why don't we argue the caliber of a Heavy Pistol, or whether or not you can bypass armor with a called shot.
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| At least I now know that although crossing a border in any other way is usually a fairly easy task |
Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
Hint: why the hell do you think they have T-birds? To compensate for small penis size?
~J
I'm new here so don't all fillet me at once! LOL! It's been some years since I played but I've always kept an interest and it has always seemed to me that by using the rules in such a way as to gain an advantage that wasn't originally intended goes against the spirit of the game/rule. Doesn't anyone else feel that if anyone was meant to fly around with near-impunity like superman they wouldn't have to cast and maintain 10+ spells but would rather just have to cast the spell Flight? IMHO I think Levitate has been taken well beyond the bounderies of it's intent in this case! Just an opinion and in no way is meant as fact or as an attempt to stifle creativity! 
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