Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Practical Flight
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
DocMortand
I now have a mage in my game with Force 10 Levitation who is using this to zip around town and various other places (like going from Seattle to New Orleans) at speeds faster than I can calculate.

Now I can think of a few things that would slow a mage down, but what are the practical problems (and solutions) for flying to and fro without a plane/air car/helicopter's surface as a buffer.

Possible problems (at full speed):
1) Bug strikes (flying through mosquitos/flies at 100 mph)
2) Rain/hail/sleet/wind (general weather)
3) Detection of person (violating borders while flying)
4) Spirit interference (pesky things)

Possible solutions:
1) custom physical barrier? (would it hold up under repeated strikes?)
2) avoid. smile.gif or #1
3) Improved Invis would eliminate sensors, but do border watches have spirits/mages guarding astral?
4) dunno here - I think avoid.

The mage (Lina) has the spell, so I'm trying to figure out what I need to worry about. You would think that most mages would love doing this, so there should be many zipping around, but there never are. Why?

I open the debate.
Fix-it
just make sure they don't arrest you for smuggling, you can't just waltz across the border any time you please, you gotta present your passport, declare any items, also pay tariffs on imports, exports.

you(or that char's player) should be glad I'm not GM.
Kagetenshi
Problems:

Gear. You can't carry much by yourself, high masses raise the casting TN, and there's no real way to conceal anything of meaningful size that you're carrying.

Tipping your hand. Everyone knows you're a mage, and you'll probably receive more negative treatment than Billy over there who "everyone knows" can step into a room and know where everything is, or who can see around corners, but whose magic is on the whole essentially invisible.

Air traffic. You may be detained if you don't file a flight plan and go too high/too near SeaTac or another airport.

Sharpshooters. If you fly over a bad area, you may get some pot-shots thrown at you.

Avian paracritters. What a tasty morsel.

Speed. I don't know what your mage's Magic rating is like, but it takes a lot of successes to get up to what a decent aircraft can manage (!), or even a fast land vehicle. Moreover, you actually need to eat and sleep, unlike cars (autopilot) or planes (autopilot or, more often, someone else doing the flying).

It's a pretty bad solution for long-range travel unless you're desperate.

~J
LinaInverse
Lina the Aviator here...

Couple of things. Bugs and rain should be no serious threat to a Phys Barrier of any decent force if we're only talking 100mph or so (ie, unassisted by the Wind Spirit). People drive at this speed and a standard windshield doesn't come close to being compromised. Given that a Phys Barrier can stop low to medium calibur bullets, this shouldn't be an issue.

Smuggling isn't an issue if I am flying around Seattle only (not crossing any borders). Up to this time, I've only done so at night, with ImpInvisible, and/or with Spirit Concealment.

Now if/when we do start crossing borders, well, how thorough is their spiritual coverage? We're talking about countries with thousands of miles; are they really going to have Spirits and Watchers every single mile on duty? I'm not saying it's risk-free, but it can't be any riskier than trying to smuggle the old-fashioned way via trucks and vans.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Problems:

Gear. You can't carry much by yourself, high masses raise the casting TN, and there's no real way to conceal anything of meaningful size that you're carrying.

Tipping your hand. Everyone knows you're a mage, and you'll probably receive more negative treatment than Billy over there who "everyone knows" can step into a room and know where everything is, or who can see around corners, but whose magic is on the whole essentially invisible.

Air traffic. You may be detained if you don't file a flight plan and go too high/too near SeaTac or another airport.

Sharpshooters. If you fly over a bad area, you may get some pot-shots thrown at you.

Avian paracritters. What a tasty morsel.

Speed. I don't know what your mage's Magic rating is like, but it takes a lot of successes to get up to what a decent aircraft can manage (!), or even a fast land vehicle. Moreover, you actually need to eat and sleep, unlike cars (autopilot) or planes (autopilot or, more often, someone else doing the flying).

It's a pretty bad solution for long-range travel unless you're desperate.

~J

One, the spell is Quickened; casting TN isn't an issue. And regardless; the character in question never carries much stuff anyway, given her low Strength.

Speed: Mage has a Magic of 11 (soon to be 12). We did the calculations; her base flight w/o Spiritual Movement Power is 82.5 mph (132 kph). Throw in a Force 8 Air Spirit and that goes to 660 mph. Still think that land vehicle can catch her?

Shooters: She has a Sustaining Foci w/ Imp Invisibility. Not full proof, but not that easy either, especially when the target is moving that fast.

Avian paracritters: Granted, a legitimate threat. That's why she would be flying with a platoon of high-force Watchers as cover (most paras I've seen are Dual-natured, especially the more dangerous ones).

Bad Solution for Long-Range: I actually do agree with you. Right now, I use it for tooling around town and for personal mobility (no more plodding around 6 meters per turn). If I ever did use it for Long-Range, then rest assured, it'd be because the situation was that desperate (ie, they're watching all the trains/planes/cars leaving town).
SL James
Physical barrier, imp. invis., and spirits with the powers of Guard and Movement. With the right circumstances, he can fly Mach 2.
DocMortand
If you're flying 660 mph than the concern over bug impacts/other flying objects gets a little stronger. And jets can still catch you. Of course jets will be knocked out of the sky shortly afterwards, but hey...

Also, are either of the Guard or Movement powers exclusive complex? If so then you can't use them both at the same time (unless you have ally spirit plus regular air spirit I suppose)

I hadn't thought about the tipping the hand thing. With the number of quickened spells Lina has active, even with her mondo Masking she's going to be lit up in the astral like a Christmas Tree.

And to be frank, avian paracritters aren't much of a threat to Lina. Not with the spells and protections she has available. (still, I'm going to look. vegm.gif)
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (LinaInverse @ Nov 7 2005, 05:04 PM)
One, the spell is Quickened; casting TN isn't an issue.  And regardless; the character in question never carries much stuff anyway, given her low Strength.

Ouch, that's even worse. At least you probably have Masking, giving you more time before it gets brought down.

Wait, no you don't. Unless you lost magic down to 1, your initiate grade will be much lower than 10, so you can't mask it at all. I would call this a very bad tactical decision, as you can't walk through wards at all without the caster's knowledge and explicit consent.
QUOTE
Speed:  Mage has a Magic of 11 (soon to be 12).  We did the calculations; her base flight w/o Spiritual Movement Power is 82.5 mph (132 kph).  Throw in a Force 8 Air Spirit and that goes to 660 mph.  Still think that land vehicle can catch her?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Movement applies just as well to land-based vehicles, and they don't need to stop to rest.
QUOTE
Shooters:  She has a Sustaining Foci w/ Imp Invisibility.  Not full proof, but not that easy either, especially when the target is moving that fast.

Since I realized that you couldn't mask the Levitate, you can actually mask the Invis. That'll help, then.
QUOTE
Bad Solution for Long-Range:  I actually do agree with you.  Right now, I use it for tooling around town and for personal mobility (no more plodding around 6 meters per turn).  If I ever did use it for Long-Range, then rest assured, it'd be because the situation was that desperate (ie, they're watching all the trains/planes/cars leaving town).

It's a lifesaver if you're going to be flying or going by boat a lot. Nothing like the craft breaking to pieces around you while you just float away.

Doc: reread the Masking section. It doesn't go off of Magic, it goes off of initiate grade. Unless there's a lot of magic loss in this character's history, she's out of luck.

~J
LinaInverse
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Ouch, that's even worse. At least you probably have Masking, giving you more time before it gets brought down.

Wait, no you don't. Unless you lost magic down to 1, your initiate grade will be much lower than 10, so you can't mask it at all. I would call this a very bad tactical decision, as you can't walk through wards at all without the caster's knowledge and explicit consent.

You are correct; it's not masked. But there is a way around Wards w/o letting the caster know. You use Masking to basically spoof your way around them. At her grade (and humongous Karma pool), she can reasonably likely get around any Ward Force 7 or less. Much more than that, and yes, she has problems. And yes, that's the price I paid for having the Quickened spells that I have.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Movement applies just as well to land-based vehicles, and they don't need to stop to rest.

Well, most ground vehicles can't go nearly that fast, not to mention navigating a ground vehicle that fast would be a lot more challenging than air vehicles, especially if you're off-road.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

It's a lifesaver if you're going to be flying or going by boat a lot. Nothing like the craft breaking to pieces around you while you just float away.

Doc: reread the Masking section. It doesn't go off of Magic, it goes off of initiate grade. Unless there's a lot of magic loss in this character's history, she's out of luck.

~J

This nearly happened about a year ago in our campaign. We were hired to hijack a cargo super carrier out at sea and for a while, it looked like we might have ended up sunk if things went wrong. Luckily things worked out for the better (for now).

I'm aware of the masking rules and so is Doc. And yes, although she masks some of her stuff, a lot of her magic is not masked. Yes, that's the chance I take as far as being a visually obvious mage when viewed Astrally. It was a calculated risk which has already shown to have both plusses and minuses.
Trax
Why would you need a barrier spell against bugs? Just put on a motorcycle helmet, as for the weather, dress appropriately for the weather, mostly warm clothing if you plan on flying very high.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (LinaInverse)

Now if/when we do start crossing borders, well, how thorough is their spiritual coverage? We're talking about countries with thousands of miles; are they really going to have Spirits and Watchers every single mile on duty?

iirc those ghosties move at the speed of thought, so they don't have to be everywhere... that aside, they don't have to be everywhere; they just have to happen to be in the right place at the right time.
DocMortand
I suppose it hadn't sunk in about masking being versus initiate grade rather than magic. Bad things tend to get drawn to power lodes. Of course, Lina is getting more and more magical things being thrown at her, so it's all good.

I suppose the other question to ask all those aerodynamics people is this - Levitating at high speed - will air resistance become a factor?

And regarding border ghosties - I think an occasional occurence probably would be called for - just as long as it isn't every time, methinks.

Heck, if the ghosties were THAT efficient then smugglers are doomed.
SL James
Realistically, yes it will without some sort of protection if you're trying to fly 660mph.
pragma
The human body is not particularly aerodynamic. The absolute maximum speed attained in free fall was 614 MPH (my source) and that was in upper atmosphere where the minimal air density makes for very little drag.

Without special equipment speeds of 321 MPH have been reported (at best) and 180 MPH are common. As a result, assuming that you are flying in an aerodynamic position you would have to experience a force 2-4 times stronger than the gravitational force in order to have a max velocity of 660 MPH (and forget about accelerating to dodge anything).

At 4 G's the human body starts to lose blood flow to the brain over the course of a few seconds (my source). So it's likely that Lina will suffer from severe headaches, vision impairment and mild unconsciousness most of the time.

Of course, a much easier answer is that magic and physics don't mix.
pragma
Another note: Since, as has been observed, very few mages levitate as a chosen form of transportation the likelihood of being identified when you do so is very high. Nothing like announcing your presence and painting "Geek the Mage" on your forehead in one fell swoop.
Dog
What about Fovae? I don't remember exactly, but couldn't that nix your spell at the most inopportune time?

And, like lots of other cool spell applications, guns and so on, why isn't everyone else doing it?
Trax
Because they aren't cool.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (pragma @ Nov 7 2005, 09:16 PM)
At 4 G's the human body starts to lose blood flow to the brain over the course of a few seconds (my source). So it's likely that Lina will suffer from severe headaches, vision impairment and mild unconsciousness most of the time..

That's the great thing about levitate, instant inertialess acceleration of the entire object (or perhands a change in velocity without acceleration, which is a contridiction. However, graphing any function a=Dv/Dt where Dt = 0 shows that acceleration does not exist at those points. It may be possible to determine that a=Lim Dt->0 of Dv/Dt, in which case a=lim n ->inifinity of n for all values of Dv != to zero and is undefined where Dv=0).


In any case, levitate defies inertia. Lina won't feel a thing when changing velocities and acceleration forces only apply when changing velocity.
LinaInverse
Couple of things...

Shadowrun (specifically Levitate) makes no attempt to regulate physics. There are no numbers, no damage codes, etc for acc/decel. Is there really a comprehensive method of determining how much damage happens at each specific speed, acceleration? For that matter, Levitate has absolutely no turn radius listed.

What is Fovae? As for being observed, there are ways to foil that, at least to a degree.
FrankTrollman
I've always been under the impression that movement operated by time dilation, not by physically increasing your kinetic energy. That's why you can't use movement on bullets or arrows to have them do more damage or anything stupid like that. The movement power doesn't make things more dangerous, just reduces or increases the time it takes you to get where you are going.

That's explicitly stated in some of the versions of Movement, and heavily implied in others. If you are concerned about how much of a nuisance a fly or duck is going to be at the speeds you are going, use your speed before the movement power is applied. Which is to say that you've essentially driving at highway speeds and could get by with motorcycle goggles if for some reason motorcycle helmets annoyed you.

-Frank
pragma
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
In any case, levitate defies inertia. Lina won't feel a thing when changing velocities and acceleration forces only apply when changing velocity.


I agree that the startup won't require damaging acceleration (even if levitate wasn't magic you could start at a lower thrust and step it up graduallly to prevent large accelerations).

However, it is a problem when turning because that also requires a change in velocity and a relatively large one at high speeds (depending on the sharpness of the turn).
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (pragma)
However, it is a problem when turning because that also requires a change in velocity and a relatively large one at high speeds (depending on the sharpness of the turn).

No it's not. Levitate is limited by the amount of distance it can cover each round. That means that it effectively has infinite acceleration. Levitate can make a 90 degree turn and it will be just as jarring to the levitator as starting or stopping. Which is to say that it isn't jarring or painful at all.

Levitate can't be used to move people into the ground at super gravity causing their necks to snap, and because of that it actually can be used to fly around corners at full speed without problem.

-Frank
pragma
I'll agree that magic and physics don't mix.

However, the question
QUOTE (Linalverse)
Will air resistance become a factor?

was asked. Terminal velocity and acceleratiion blackout are the physical, if not magical, answer to experiencing an undefined (but unbounded) acceleration.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (pragma)
The human body is not particularly aerodynamic.

Well now, lets be fair. We should get a *very* detailed physical description of the character to be sure. Maybe she's a leather clad lesbian elf stripper. if I'm not mistaken they get +2 to aerodynmic manuevers.

Lina?

<crosses fingers>
ShadowDragon8685
That's acrodynamic, not aerodynamic.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (pragma @ Nov 8 2005, 01:26 AM)
I'll agree that magic and physics don't mix.

However, the question
QUOTE (Linalverse)
Will air resistance become a factor?

was asked. Terminal velocity and acceleratiion blackout are the physical, if not magical, answer to experiencing an undefined (but unbounded) acceleration.

Acceleration blackout is due to differences in acceleration between different parts of the body the end result is that the velocity of the blood realitive to the brain is too low to reach the brain in the necessary quantites.

However, with magical levitation one could apply acceleration evenly throughout the body and keep the realitive velocities between parts of the body constant. As a result, it would feel like standing still rather than accelerating.

Terminal velocity is a result of the drag force resulting from air resistance being equal to the accelerating force. Air resistance, in turn, is determined by velocity, exposed surface area, abd the viscosity of the air. Since there are several variables involved.

Terminal velocity can be increased several ways. You could reduce the drag force by decreasing exposed surface area. If it is within your power you could potentially reduce the viscosity of the air. However, the simpliest way to increase terminal velocity is to increase the acceleration.

The drag formula is F=(A/2)DSv^2 where v is velocity, S is the Drag Coefficient and D is the air density. Since velocity is squared, attempts to increase terminal velocity meet with diminishing returns. However, so long as you can put more force into the acceleration you can incerse the terminal velocity up to the lim n->C of n where C = the speed of light in a vaccum. Granted, it would take tremendous force and would cause extreme devestation but it is quite possible.

Since the acceleration provided by levitation is clearly unbounded, air resistance doesn't pose a problem. (A/2)DSv^2 < Lim n-> infinity of Mn (where M = the mass of the levitation target) for all real values of A, v, D, and S so long as M>0
If M=0 then the target isn't composed of matter at all is a collection of energy particles if it exists at all. If M<0 then we have a whole new problem since having negative mass sould not be possible according to the definition of mass.
Since our target exists and is a material being we can safely claim that M>0 .

Therefore, terminal velocity isn't an issue either.

Incidently, since the Lim n-> infinity of Mn is unbounded the levitate spell could be used to exceed C, with a ver high magic rating and many successes.
pragma
Point taken. I agree that if levitate generates an instantaneous acceleration with an infinite force on all parts of the body evenly then the physical effects listed above are non-issues.
nick012000
An easier way to do this:

Step 1. Summon a Force 1 watcher spirit, in the form of a motorcycle.
Step 2. Use Astral Perception, so you become Dual Natured.
Step 3. Ride the flying motorcycle.

Because fast astral movement beats the tar out of this, and because you're dual natured, you get pulled along for the ride. I'd make sure that watcher spirit had a head rest.
ShadowDragon8685
Magic should not be an excuse to completely violate physics. If for the simple fact that to exceed Cee, the number of successess you should need should be infinate. If not for that, the fact that traveling at lightspeed using magic would probably A: generate one motherfucker of a mana warp, and B: fling you into the warp of the void at an insane speed.
Birdy
Isn't there a rule about flying mages and dress code like:


Male have to wear blue spandex coveralls, red cape and short red throusers

Female a blue leotard(sp?), red cape, red boots and matching miniskirt


Something along that lines...


Oh and there are a few IRL ground vehicles that can match the speed of flying mage. Well, parts of the vehicles can. What vehicles? Well, Roland, Gepard, ZSU23-4, BSV....


Birdy
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Birdy)
Isn't there a rule about flying mages and dress code like:


Male have to wear blue spandex coveralls, red cape and short red throusers

Female a blue leotard(sp?), red cape, red boots and matching miniskirt


Something along that lines...

No, no, no. You're thinking of the Mutants and Masterminds RPG; those fourms are a few websites down the net that way.

This is SR. A dresscode like that would be silly. Though it's got to be worth a few bonus karma for style if you use a broom as your spell focus.
Birdy
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (Birdy @ Nov 8 2005, 04:25 AM)
Isn't there a rule about flying mages and dress code like:


Male have to wear blue spandex coveralls, red cape and short red throusers

Female a blue leotard(sp?), red cape, red boots and matching miniskirt


Something along that lines...

No, no, no. You're thinking of the Mutants and Masterminds RPG; those fourms are a few websites down the net that way.

This is SR. A dresscode like that would be silly. Though it's got to be worth a few bonus karma for style if you use a broom as your spell focus.

Na, it's a Near Future RPG. Use a vacuum cleaner!

Birdy
The_Gun_Nut
OK, most of the issues have been presented and rebutted.

Bugs in the face? Barrier spell to protect from small airborne objects. What about birds? Flying a little higher, or cranking up a much higher power barrier should do it. Remember though, birds give aircraft fits when they strike them. And that's at a relatively slow speed of 100 to 200 mph. At 660 mph, the bird is striking the poor mage with enough energy to breach even a moderately powerful barrier. The initiate spoken of here better use a force 8 or higher barrier there.

Flying at high altitudes isn't just about temperature or weather, although such things are incredibly important. Toss an oxygenate spell on there so the mage doesn't pass out. Special clothing or a "warmth" type spell should do the trick for the bitterly cold temperatures.

The big problem, which no one has mentioned, is the fact that someone's radar screen shows a small, missile like object flying at low altitude just under supersonic speeds. By the way, that is exactly how cruise missiles fly. And yes, the human body WILL show up on radar. And no, the improved invisibility spell won't help as it does not apply to radar systems, it applies to light. There is an obscure spell that counters radar and similar detection systems, but improved invis is not it. If any sort of military saw that pop up on their screens, countermeasures (IE. anti-missile missiles) will be launched to intercept. Please mention (or not, depending on whether or not you want the character dead) this tiny brush with radar guided love to the mage.
LinaInverse
Comments...

My mage is a human female; dress code is usually Lvl 3 Formfit (no it's not blue), some Armor Clothing pieces, gloves, boots (no, not red), and either a Long Coat or a Camo Full suit (and no, no mini skirt). As for aerodynamic shapes, I was thinking the Phys Barrier (properly shaped) could take care of that.

In terms of physics in an absolute sense, no one is talking about going anywhere near Cee. Right now, we're only talking about Mach 1 at the absolute highest. If/when my Magic attribute goes higher, then we'll talk about supersonic.

Doesn't radar reflect off metal? For that matter, I thought modern radar goes off transponders, not skin reflection. Also, wouldn't a Nature Spirit's Concealment power help baffle radar? Radar needs to make perception rolls like anything else, right? Concealment usually jacks that Tgt# up by several notches.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Incidently, since the Lim n-> infinity of Mn is unbounded the levitate spell could be used to exceed C, with a ver high magic rating and many successes.

I envision the start of an initiatory group, nicknamed "Frag off, Einstein", whose soole purpose is to create and ritually cast a Levitate spell powerful enough to break the light barrier, thereby giving the finger to all of relativity. nyahnyah.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 8 2005, 12:17 AM)
Incidently, since the Lim n-> infinity of Mn is unbounded the levitate spell could be used to exceed C, with a ver high magic rating and many successes.

I envision the start of an initiatory group, nicknamed "Frag off, Einstein", whose soole purpose is to create and ritually cast a Levitate spell powerful enough to break the light barrier, thereby giving the finger to all of relativity. nyahnyah.gif

Actually, exceeding C with levitation doesn't violate realitivity so much as it violates newtonian physics which were already hoop-widened by quantum physics anyway. (Levitate also violates quantum physics, as well but that is acceptable because no one really understands quantum physics anyway.)
You see, light speed is not a velocity limit; it is an acceleration limit. Objects can move facter than C without any problems. However, nothing can accelerate to a velocity faster than C. The ability to retain a velocity without the ability to achieve it is rather moo. Levitate causes a change in velocity without a change in time, meaning infinite acceleration. With an acceleration of (C+1)[m/s]/0s one could bypass light speed without experiencing any of realitivistic effects. Note that at this point the levitiated object may or may not be traveling backwards in time and it may or may not exist in all points in space simultaneously. It will certain be slung into outer space.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Nov 8 2005, 11:15 AM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 8 2005, 12:17 AM)
Incidently, since the Lim n-> infinity of Mn is unbounded the levitate spell could be used to exceed C, with a ver high magic rating and many successes.

I envision the start of an initiatory group, nicknamed "Frag off, Einstein", whose soole purpose is to create and ritually cast a Levitate spell powerful enough to break the light barrier, thereby giving the finger to all of relativity. nyahnyah.gif

Actually, exceeding C with levitation doesn't violate realitivity so much as it violates newtonian physics which were already hoop-widened by quantum physics anyway. (Levitate also violates quantum physics, as well but that is acceptable because no one really understands quantum physics anyway.)
You see, light speed is not a velocity limit; it is an acceleration limit. Objects can move facter than C without any problems. However, nothing can accelerate to a velocity faster than C. The ability to retain a velocity without the ability to achieve it is rather moo. Levitate causes a change in velocity without a change in time, meaning infinite acceleration. With an acceleration of (C+1)[m/s]/0s one could bypass light speed without experiencing any of realitivistic effects. Note that at this point the levitiated object may or may not be traveling backwards in time and it may or may not exist in all points in space simultaneously. It will certain be slung into outer space.

This of course would be more than enough reason to do it. smile.gif
The Stainless Steel Rat
Regarding the Wind Resistance/Terminal Velocity issue:

It was my understanding that when a Spirit of the Air uses its Movement power on you it is actually manipulating the air around you to assist in your movement. This being the case, why would there be any resistance at all? I see it as you are incased in a bubble of air that is motionless relative to you, and any resistance would exist between the bubble's edge and the "normal" air, which would all be handled magically by the Spirit's power.

Any reasons why my interpretation is wrong?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 8 2005, 09:21 AM)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Nov 8 2005, 11:15 AM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 8 2005, 12:17 AM)
Incidently, since the Lim n-> infinity of Mn is unbounded the levitate spell could be used to exceed C, with a ver high magic rating and many successes.

I envision the start of an initiatory group, nicknamed "Frag off, Einstein", whose soole purpose is to create and ritually cast a Levitate spell powerful enough to break the light barrier, thereby giving the finger to all of relativity. nyahnyah.gif

Actually, exceeding C with levitation doesn't violate realitivity so much as it violates newtonian physics which were already hoop-widened by quantum physics anyway. (Levitate also violates quantum physics, as well but that is acceptable because no one really understands quantum physics anyway.)
You see, light speed is not a velocity limit; it is an acceleration limit. Objects can move facter than C without any problems. However, nothing can accelerate to a velocity faster than C. The ability to retain a velocity without the ability to achieve it is rather moo. Levitate causes a change in velocity without a change in time, meaning infinite acceleration. With an acceleration of (C+1)[m/s]/0s one could bypass light speed without experiencing any of realitivistic effects. Note that at this point the levitiated object may or may not be traveling backwards in time and it may or may not exist in all points in space simultaneously. It will certain be slung into outer space.

This of course would be more than enough reason to do it. smile.gif

Well, either slung into space or hit something taking 89,937,737M stun per impact.
DocMortand
Lets get back to the Radar issue - I think that is the biggest problem at the moment. I don't know anything about how radar works, so how does it work in RL, and how is it treated in SR?
Kagetenshi
It isn't treated in SR. Sensors are generic conglomerations of radar, visible-spectrum, ultrasound, and Bob knows what else, and Invisibility/II does not affect them. Ordinary humans have a Signature of 6, Trolls 5, and Signature drops with 'ware. Some gear or the Vehicle Mask spell can drop Signature. Unfortunately for flying mages, only the Vehicle mask spell has this effect (not ordinary Physical Mask), and it is restricted-target Vehicles.

~J
DocMortand
I can just imagine the radar ops:

"Bob, we got a bogey on 2."
"Class?"
"Unknown. Speed 660 MPH, Heading 220."
"Great, is Lina doing aerial stunts again? Send a Grand Dragon to make her cut that out."
LinaInverse
Why wouldn't the Spirit power Concealment work then? Signature, as far as I know, is the target number Sensors have to roll to pick up their target. Concealment, by definition, increases that number. And yes, Concealment is a Physical power, not a Mana-based one.
Kagetenshi
Yep, it does do that. I'd made the mistake of reading the Concealment power, which explicitly applies only to Perception tests (which Active Sensor tests are not), but earlier in the Active Sensor test modifier table it includes spirit Concealment. That'll help.

~J
DocMortand
"I can't see it!"

"Stay on target..."
ShadowDragon8685
And then they launch a satellite-rigged rigger-drove AMM at you. smile.gif
FrankTrollman
I don't even understand the argument for why radar would be able to find someone concealed with improved invisibility. Radar stands for "Radio Detection And Ranging", and uses radio waves. Radio waves are light waves. It's just a very low frequency color of infrared light. Improved invisibility works on infreared light, so it should work on Radar.

Sonar, however, would find you just fine.

-Frank
Kagetenshi
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language has this to say:

Light (noun): Electromagnetic radiation that has a wavelength in the range from about 4,000 (violet) to about 7,700 (red) angstroms and may be perceived by the normal unaided human eye.

They're both in the electromagnetic spectrum, but they are not both "light". Next?

To counter the inevitable "rebuttal", from the Colombia Electronic Encyclopedia:

"The term “light” is often extended to adjacent wavelength ranges that the eye cannot detect—to infrared radiation, which has a frequency less than that of visible light, and to ultraviolet radiation and black light, which have a frequency greater than that of visible light."

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 8 2005, 10:34 PM)
I don't even understand the argument for why radar would be able to find someone concealed with improved invisibility. Radar stands for "Radio Detection And Ranging", and uses radio waves. Radio waves are light waves. It's just a very low frequency color of infrared light. Improved invisibility works on infreared light, so it should work on Radar.

Sonar, however, would find you just fine.

-Frank

Ah, but II doesn't do anything to light at all. It simply alters the viewer or viewing device to make it appear that the object is invisible. This only works on systems that interperate light visually. Systems that interperate light in non-visual ways, such as the thermosense organ, are unhindered by improved invisibility.

Radio imaging would be fooled by improved invisibility but radar detection wouldn't be. By the same token, light based moten detectors, laser tripwires and laser rangefinders are imune to II, as well.
Sunday_Gamer
A well prepared mage or any shaman can really cook when they have to, learn to live with it.

I do it all the time, it's one of the greatest advantages of being a shaman. Get up on the roof, summon a force 5 wind spirit, get at least 2 services.

Cast force 4 lev, get 4 success. 4 successes multiplied by my magic rating of 9 = 36 meters per turn. Sky spirit uses concealment and then movement. I'm now moving at 180 meters per turn with +5 to TN to see me.

180 meters per turn that's 216 kph. That's damn fast but certainly not earth shattering.

Now I hate to break it to you folks, but being able to move at 216 kph while inivisble (assuming the spell is used and not just the concealment power) means I'm getting in and out of Seattle any time I damn well please.

They are not going to catch 1 man, flying low and fast, invisible, crossing the border into the NAN. I'm not talking about bringing anything else out, just yourself.

Bugs are not a problem, please.

What exactly is the problem? Force 10 Lev? Ok so let's assume he scores 10 successes casting it, which isn't something he should casually pull off. Let's make him a rank 4 initiate with no Cyber, Bio or Magic Loss. So 10 successes times 10 magic rating is 100 meters per turn. 33 meters per second. 119 kph. Assuming he was also a shaman and his charisma was 6 and he was feeling saucy and summoned force 6, he could get close to 700 kph, still under Mach 1.

It's DAMN fast, but that's one extreme mage that's doing everything he/she can to fly as fast as he/she can.

I don't have a big problem with that. I wouldn't try flying through buildings at that speed. A collision would be MOST unfortunate.

Kong

PS: If one of my players summoned a force 1 watcher motorcycle and tried to ride it while dual, that poor, stupid, astral watcher would run his ass into a solid object so fast. Then the dark gods of Gouda would unleash unfathomable furies on the player for having tried.
tisoz
QUOTE (nick012000)
An easier way to do this:

Step 1. Summon a Force 1 watcher spirit, in the form of a motorcycle.
Step 2. Use Astral Perception, so you become Dual Natured.
Step 3. Ride the flying motorcycle.

Because fast astral movement beats the tar out of this, and because you're dual natured, you get pulled along for the ride. I'd make sure that watcher spirit had a head rest.

I've seen this proposed a couple of times now and no one has challenged it, so here goes. Wouldn't this be similar to a dual natured being getting forced through an astral barrier? The barrier/watcher either gets damaged enough to allow the astral form to pass through, or the barrier/watcher rips the astral form from the physical body. If the dual being can astrally project, it is an inconveniance, but if the dual natured being cannot astrally project, it is hosed.

Also on using wather spirits for patrolling borders or scouting ahead of the fast moving magician, there are restrictions on what can be observed moving at the fast movement speed, things pass by in a blur. I would only allow them to move at Normal movement to make a Perception test which is required to see anything in detail or assense. (SR3.173)

And using a spirits Movement power isn't as simple as some are implying. It is a Physical power, so the spirit must be present on the physical plane. This means the spirit is visible and not moving at great speeds unless it is helped with the Invisibility spell (cast by the magician in question or we compound the problem with more characters, which means the magician now gets sustaining modifiers) or by the Concealment power (by the spirit or compound the problem by having to add more spirits.) And there are no elementals with Concealment, so we are talking shamen or Invisibility.

It is a LOS power, so the spirit needs to keep up with the magician or the magician only fly around in a LOS radius. The Spirit can use Movement on itself to accompany the magician, but now the top speed may limited by the spirit's Quickness and run modifier, if less than the Levitation spells movement rate. The Spirit also requires 2 Complex Actions and 2 services to get the magician and itself up to speed. (3 services if using Concealment.) (SR3.265)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012