Full Version: How vital are complex forms for technomancers?
| QUOTE (Xenith @ Mar 1 2006, 02:34 AM) |
| Interesting. I'm glad for that. Just wish something similar was in place for magic users. |
Only if the mage doesn't travel, he has 12h at max.
But, a force 12 bound spirit is much more scary - for the mage, too, if considering drain.
Yeah, under the basic rules Lofwyr has a substantial chance of simply dying every time he tries to bind a Force 12 spirit. That's unfortunate I think.
And if you go far enough away from the Equator your maximum spirit binding ritual gets longer. If you are willing to go to the Poles during Summer or Winter, you can potentially engage in a Force 840 binding ritual - which would of course kill you instantly to even begin.
-Frank
And if you go far enough away from the Equator your maximum spirit binding ritual gets longer. If you are willing to go to the Poles during Summer or Winter, you can potentially engage in a Force 840 binding ritual - which would of course kill you instantly to even begin.
-Frank
That brings up an interesting question. Above/below the Aritic/Anartic circles do unbound spirits stay around for a period of up to days long?
EDIT Lowfyr has no real chance of dieing to binding a Force 12 spirit once you factor in Twist of Fate. In some ways I like that it is completely scary to try Bind a high level spirit. Those are very scary creatures in all other aspects, why should harnessing them be any less scary? That banishing drain is so high though I'm not crazy about.
EDIT Lowfyr has no real chance of dieing to binding a Force 12 spirit once you factor in Twist of Fate. In some ways I like that it is completely scary to try Bind a high level spirit. Those are very scary creatures in all other aspects, why should harnessing them be any less scary? That banishing drain is so high though I'm not crazy about.
eh. high-force spirits are scary, sure, but compared to a dragon that's been around for tens of thousands of years?
| QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 1 2006, 01:02 PM) |
| eh. high-force spirits are scary, sure, but compared to a dragon that's been around for tens of thousands of years? |
As I pointed out Lowfyr is in no real danger if he is properly prepared. Given what he pulled off in 2065 it is safe to assume he is pretty much always properly prepared. He sure as hell isn't going to be doing it without a couple of topend foci.
What was the Force of the Denver City Spirit again?
| QUOTE |
| What was the Force of the Denver City Spirit again? |
Nitpick: That wasn't Lowfyr, that was Ghostwalker, who's considered the master of spirits even among GD's. And even he didn't get the full thing; he only got parts of it.
| QUOTE |
| As I pointed out Lowfyr is in no real danger if he is properly prepared. |
You didn't "point that out" you made the claim. That's not the same thing.
Lofwyr has a Magic Attribute that is higher than "normal" great dragons, let's give him an 18. He also has a higher Willpower than a "normal" great dragon, let's give him a 15. He probably also has Centering, and a big Binding Focus for every spirit type, so he's going to be rolling about 50 dice for drain resistance, which is non-trivial. And he can force the spirit to reroll its hits by spending an Edge point.
He has 16 boxes in his Stun Track, and if he passes out from Drain the spirit will turn on him and engulf him to death in a shockingly short period of time.
---
But the spirit rolls twenty four dice and every hit generates 2 drain. If the spirit spends an Edge point itself it rolls thirty six dice and half the hits give it an extra die to roll without limit.
Certainly, the balance is in Lofwyr's corner. Chances are good that he doesn't take any drain at all (average hits on 24 dice is 8 hits, which is a DV of 16, and the average hits on his ~50 drain resistance dice is about 17). But the variance on this is huge. If Edge is spent on both sides, it is within one standard deviation to generate a DV of 4 and 34. And a DV of 34 is even odds to leave Lofwyr dead.
And with 2 standard deviations you start having DVs of like 40 - if Lofwyr is running around binding 20 intransigent spirits, he's going to die.
-Frank
The difference comes in that using Twist of Fate allows Lowfyr to bring multiple points of Edge to bear on drain, coming from both sides. Twist of Fate absolutely hammers the variance because if the spirit rolls well Lowfyr the munchkin can say "nuh-ah, you can keep those failed dice but you have to reroll the hits to see if they really are". During Summoning there is a GM interpretation around whether Lowfyr would have LOS or not, IMO he likely wouldn't have LOS. But because this is Binding an existing owned spirit LOS shouldn't be an issue. If LOS is a problem Lowfyr shouldn't be so stupid as to attempt the Binding. 
EDIT That isn't to say that I like how much drain DV can vary. I would have liked the variance a little lower, but I do like that trying to bend high force spirits to your will is normally quite scary.
EDIT That isn't to say that I like how much drain DV can vary. I would have liked the variance a little lower, but I do like that trying to bend high force spirits to your will is normally quite scary.
I would add that Lowfyr would likely do sneaky stuff up front to eliminate the use of Edge. Adding Edge is generally a voluntary, as opposed to involuntary, optional action. If Lowfyr was able to bargin with the spirit or otherwise convince it to not actively resist the Binding then the Spirit's substantial Edge is out of the picture.
Another technique would be to have someone else get the spirit to draw down their Edge, but that is 12 points to bring down. That is likely going to cut a sizable path through the ranks of those unfortunate enough to be set to the task by Lowfyr.
Post Script
I found it using Search on the main forum. The Denver Spirit when made whole was a Great Form Force 18 spirit that is likely similar in age to many of the GD. That is indeed one scary mofo. Ghostwalker is some sort of specialist in spirits with access to the lunatic levels of handwaving metamagics, techniques, and artifacts that implies. Little wonder that it would be no triffling matter for him to first merge the fragments and then Bind the whole.
Also keep in mind that we don't yet know what the SR4 Free Spirit rules are, and therefor what knowing the True Name will do to the Drain DV range.
EDIT
In the past it is fairly rare to have spirits in canon above Force 10. I got those Denver Spirit numbers from an incomplete list compiled by AH sometime before 2005. I know there was at least one kick butt Spirit with Force level given in SoA, but I don't have that book with me at the momment. That is probably what I find the most disturbing about SR4 allowing a fairly modest character to attempt Summon and Binding such a spirit, even if it is likely to kill them. Canon seems to suggest there aren't many of Free spirits of that power normally seen by mortals. The ones that are run countries, AAAs, and stuff. They are indeed roughly comparable to dragons.
Another technique would be to have someone else get the spirit to draw down their Edge, but that is 12 points to bring down. That is likely going to cut a sizable path through the ranks of those unfortunate enough to be set to the task by Lowfyr.
Post Script
I found it using Search on the main forum. The Denver Spirit when made whole was a Great Form Force 18 spirit that is likely similar in age to many of the GD. That is indeed one scary mofo. Ghostwalker is some sort of specialist in spirits with access to the lunatic levels of handwaving metamagics, techniques, and artifacts that implies. Little wonder that it would be no triffling matter for him to first merge the fragments and then Bind the whole.
Also keep in mind that we don't yet know what the SR4 Free Spirit rules are, and therefor what knowing the True Name will do to the Drain DV range.
EDIT
In the past it is fairly rare to have spirits in canon above Force 10. I got those Denver Spirit numbers from an incomplete list compiled by AH sometime before 2005. I know there was at least one kick butt Spirit with Force level given in SoA, but I don't have that book with me at the momment. That is probably what I find the most disturbing about SR4 allowing a fairly modest character to attempt Summon and Binding such a spirit, even if it is likely to kill them. Canon seems to suggest there aren't many of Free spirits of that power normally seen by mortals. The ones that are run countries, AAAs, and stuff. They are indeed roughly comparable to dragons.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Mar 1 2006, 02:29 PM) |
| He has 16 boxes in his Stun Track, and if he passes out from Drain the spirit will turn on him and engulf him to death in a shockingly short period of time. |
There's a reason why all the texts on summoning spirits (in RL, and in SR too I assume) always talk about putting a ward around you, or summoning the spirit inside of a ward.
No way Lofwyr is going to summon a spirit that could theoretically knock him out without putting some uber-wards in place.
You can be sure that if I run a character that binds spirits, he'll be doing it from within his lodge/circle/warded area. Preferably wards layered like an onion, and of high level.
(Which reminds me, does anyone else think we need ritual summoning in addition to ritual sorcery?)
| QUOTE (Vaevictis) |
| (Which reminds me, does anyone else think we need ritual summoning in addition to ritual sorcery?) |
Yes.
Several people, who have RL degrees in this stuff, that I've argued with about SR & other game systems, all claim that the only way to perform a summoning that will hold an unbound spirit long enough to do a binding is through ritual summoning. As it requires targeting an entity of unknown location and ability, and forcing them to present themselves to you. A summoning is not an invitation to a social luncheon, but a challenge to the astral or metaplanar equivalent to a go-ganger's turf tag, and you'd best be ready to throw down when they arrive.
Rarely is a summoning an event that is mutually agreeable to both the summoner and the summoned. If it appears to be, then look out for the summoned being's hoop kissers. They're looking to clear up their own tally board of favors owed. The more powerful the being that is summoned, the more likely it is that some other being owes them a favor. The other possibility is that the summoned entity wants something from you, or one of your associates, and you may not be able to give it to them...immediately, willingly, or otherwise. In which case, you end up owing them a favor. The old Christian adage "Never make a deal with the Devil" applies to powerful spirits, just as much as the current wisdom says "Never cut a deal with a dragon."
So if I have magic 5 and binding 4, I'm going to be binding at most force 3 spirits if I don't want to die?
| QUOTE |
| Given what he pulled off in 2065 it is safe to assume he is pretty much always properly prepared. |
What did he pull off?
sorry, forgot who asked, but in SR3, it did specifically state in Target:Wastelands that if you summon a spirit in one of the 'long days' or nights in the arctic, the spirit will stick around that long. As long as it has services remaining of course. You'll have to check the actual verbiage to see what it sya in 4th ed though, since I don't recall if it states 8 hours or sun up to sun down or what.
How the hell did this come up on a thread about technomancers anyways? Silly thread-drift
How the hell did this come up on a thread about technomancers anyways? Silly thread-drift
Your Magic and Binding are not especially important for how large a spirit you can bind without the risk of death. If you get dropped from drain by any spirit with more Force than half your Magic attribute, you'll die. You're unconcious, and it's attacking you.
But just about every spirit you'll ever care about is more than half your Magic attribute, so the part of the equation you have control over is the "getting dropped" part - which is dependent upon the following contingencies:
1. Whether you have a Pain Editor. If you have a Pain Editor you don't get dropped if your Stun track gets filled in, which adds 10+ boxes to what you can absorb from Drain.
2. Your Willpower. Every point adds 1 die to drain resistance and adds 1/2 to your Stun Boxes.
3. Whether you have a Binding Focus for the spirit you are conjuring. A Binding Focus can be used to reduce drain, and a Power Focus is better at all other tasks. A Binding Focus might as well be called a "Drain Resistance Focus".
4. Whether you have Centering.
5. Your secondary Drain Resistance stat.
Now the problem with all the entries 3-5 is that they are just Drain Resist dice, and dice aren't reliable. Remember that even a Force 12 Spirit on average won't drop a good min/maxed starting character. The problem is that the total drain suffered is an extremely random quantity - a Force 12 spirit could potentially force you to resist 48 drain (if it uses Edge you could potentially be looking at 80+ Drain), and that's going to kill you even if you're Lofwyr.
If you want to futz around with high end spirits, you want reliability. And that essentially only comes from Willpower and Pain Editors.
-Frank
But just about every spirit you'll ever care about is more than half your Magic attribute, so the part of the equation you have control over is the "getting dropped" part - which is dependent upon the following contingencies:
1. Whether you have a Pain Editor. If you have a Pain Editor you don't get dropped if your Stun track gets filled in, which adds 10+ boxes to what you can absorb from Drain.
2. Your Willpower. Every point adds 1 die to drain resistance and adds 1/2 to your Stun Boxes.
3. Whether you have a Binding Focus for the spirit you are conjuring. A Binding Focus can be used to reduce drain, and a Power Focus is better at all other tasks. A Binding Focus might as well be called a "Drain Resistance Focus".
4. Whether you have Centering.
5. Your secondary Drain Resistance stat.
Now the problem with all the entries 3-5 is that they are just Drain Resist dice, and dice aren't reliable. Remember that even a Force 12 Spirit on average won't drop a good min/maxed starting character. The problem is that the total drain suffered is an extremely random quantity - a Force 12 spirit could potentially force you to resist 48 drain (if it uses Edge you could potentially be looking at 80+ Drain), and that's going to kill you even if you're Lofwyr.
If you want to futz around with high end spirits, you want reliability. And that essentially only comes from Willpower and Pain Editors.
-Frank
Of course, you can just *buy* successes instead. You'd need a much higher amount of dice, but it'd work. I don't know the math, but I'd assume that with the setup you're describing, even at the lower ratio a min/maxed character would survive the Drain.
| QUOTE |
| Several people, who have RL degrees in this stuff, that I've argued with about SR & other game systems, all claim that the only way to perform a summoning that will hold an unbound spirit long enough to do a binding is through ritual summoning. As it requires targeting an entity of unknown location and ability, and forcing them to present themselves to you. A summoning is not an invitation to a social luncheon, but a challenge to the astral or metaplanar equivalent to a go-ganger's turf tag, and you'd best be ready to throw down when they arrive. |
That depends on your views on spirits in general. A nature spirit oriented tradition, for example, might view "Binding" as a kind of advanced spiritual bribery. Voudoun, for example, tend to work this way-- there's simple rites to get the blessing and intervention of the loa for basic things, and then there's involved rites of bribery and flattery to get them to do something complicated.
At any event, binding might just be equal to ritual sorcery by itself; apparently the old SR Hermetic stuff was a combined summoning/binding attempt.
A pain editor's cyberware, right?
bioware, cultured IIRC
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