Full Version: How powerful is magic in Shadowrun?
Teleportation and time travel involve the altering the space/time continuum...
Fuggin 'ey. Space time continuwha? You sound like you watched a few too many episodes of Star Trek. Look chummer, Sorcery is the art of manipulating, chanelling and transfering "mana" or Astral energy. Manipulations, illusions and the lot are pretty much a direct result of a sham... uh... magic user taking energy directly from the astral plain to the physical plain and transmuting it into a type of energy that exists here on the physical plain. Mana spells on the other hand channels Astral energy into, out of and through things that already have astral presences, mainly life forms. In so far as I know, I mean I didn't graduate from MIT&T or anything, we don't know of any physical law that would allow us to manipulate time or move matter from one point in space to another like a teleporter or something. Magic is pretty fantastic, but it doesn't really do anything you couldn't do without it. I mean, I sometimes wish I had a rocket launcher instead of a fireball spell, it would cut down on my Bayer intake. And I often use my Yamaha Pulsar instead of my mana dart. Heck no drain!
As whiz bang as magic is, there is really just a tool and tools are only as powerful as those who use them. Is it more powerful than its "mundane" counterparts? HELLL NO. I'm just as dead as anyone else looking down the barrel of a Colt Manhunter, no matter what grade initiate I am. In the Shadows, it all comes down to who is lucky and who is smart, not who is magic and who is not.
As whiz bang as magic is, there is really just a tool and tools are only as powerful as those who use them. Is it more powerful than its "mundane" counterparts? HELLL NO. I'm just as dead as anyone else looking down the barrel of a Colt Manhunter, no matter what grade initiate I am. In the Shadows, it all comes down to who is lucky and who is smart, not who is magic and who is not.
OK I'm going to wade in on this whole thing. If you want to find a magic system that works well, take a look at the Palladium system. No spell limit per day you just have to have the energy to cast the spell. TONS of different magic classes that are pretty well balenced and unique. A player can all of the basic rules in an hour and (more importantly) all of the rules make sense!!!! Any character can use any wepon (no wep. skill, No bonuses).
Technically you CAN 'alter' time and space with real-world physics. Quantum teleportation already works (but, alas, is NOTHING like Star Trek has, or magical teleportation would be like). The time-space continuum can be altered by the application of enough force (aka gravity / acceleration) and given the right circumstances something very like teleportation can be accomplished (other than quantum teleportation, that is).
To Coyote: Actually, Magic CAN do something you couldn't do without it. It's called 'Create food' this spell literally creates something from nothing, something you can't do without magic. Similarly Mind Probe allows you to read someone's thoughts from across a room, which you couldn't do normally (barring some weird cybernetic hookup). The Shapechange and Transform spells actually allow you or others to assume completely inhuman forms, not even to mention Petrify or everyone's favourite 'Turn to Goo'.
Magic can't alter the space/time continuum because it costs a metric assload of energy to produce any noticeable effect, and that's out of the range for metahuman magicians (think 'create sun' spell. Take the drain for 'create food' multiply by a very, very large number. Watch magician's head explode just contemplating it)
To Coyote: Actually, Magic CAN do something you couldn't do without it. It's called 'Create food' this spell literally creates something from nothing, something you can't do without magic. Similarly Mind Probe allows you to read someone's thoughts from across a room, which you couldn't do normally (barring some weird cybernetic hookup). The Shapechange and Transform spells actually allow you or others to assume completely inhuman forms, not even to mention Petrify or everyone's favourite 'Turn to Goo'.
Magic can't alter the space/time continuum because it costs a metric assload of energy to produce any noticeable effect, and that's out of the range for metahuman magicians (think 'create sun' spell. Take the drain for 'create food' multiply by a very, very large number. Watch magician's head explode just contemplating it)
er, well, given that mass and energy are interchangeable, you're technically not creating food from nothing. though the exchange rate seems to vary wildy for mana-to-whatever transmutations.
Well, that magic is some form of energy is a given, though its exact nature remains obscured. But strictly speaking energy does not have mass, form, size or location, and so cannot be said to 'exist' in the same way that the end product, that is food, exists. So while it's true that you are not creating the food from 'nothing' in the most literal sense, you are creating it from void, that is something without substance, which is traditionally referred to as nothing. Hence you create the food from nothing with the caveat that the energy to create the food had to be present before the act of creation itself, though not necessarily where the food would eventually be.
i'm sure that nano technology can replicate the effects of both petrify and turn to goo.
and if you get weird enough cyber limbs, you can definitely appear non human.
and if you get weird enough cyber limbs, you can definitely appear non human.
Quantum teleportation doesn't actualy alter space-time, it just destroys one particle and creates an exact copy somewhere else via quantum entanglement, which is like Star Trek teleportation. You can magically kill yourself, so you are half way to magical teleportation. You just have to find a way to create a magical clone at the exact instant you commit suicide using ritual sorcery.
Likewise, one can carve a path through the metaplanes and achive an effect that may as well be teleportation. Most spirits can already do this, as can certain immortal elves. You just have to have a way to shift your physical body onto the astral plane and it is a cakewalk from there.
The moral of the story is that you should drug, kidnap, and repeatedly mindprobe Harlequin or Ehran.
Edit: Sharaloth, that is a rather spurious assertion. In fact, energy does have location, form, and magnitide. Take light, for example. It lacks mass but it most definatly has location form, magnitude and volume.
Likewise, one can carve a path through the metaplanes and achive an effect that may as well be teleportation. Most spirits can already do this, as can certain immortal elves. You just have to have a way to shift your physical body onto the astral plane and it is a cakewalk from there.
The moral of the story is that you should drug, kidnap, and repeatedly mindprobe Harlequin or Ehran.
Edit: Sharaloth, that is a rather spurious assertion. In fact, energy does have location, form, and magnitide. Take light, for example. It lacks mass but it most definatly has location form, magnitude and volume.
sharaloth, creating matter from energy doesn't violate any real-life physical laws. so saying that magic can create food from mana isn't a good example of magic doing the impossible. it's just doing what is already possible through unknown means.
edit: and light only lacks mass part of the time.
edit: and light only lacks mass part of the time.
You're right, Quantum teleportation doesn't alter space-time. However, it doesn't 'create' an exact-copy particle somewhere else either, since the two particles have to already exist and be entangled, it's just the instant transmission of information from one particle to another regardless of the intervening distance or the speed of light (not like Trek teleportation, which turns matter into energy then sends it to a place where it then reassembles it). I don't understand the whole thing, so I'm not going to comment furthar, I was just pointing out that teleportation does already exist.
Tunnelling through the Metaplanes is also not teleportation (though, indeed, it may as well be), more a dimensional side-step. Also technically possible, though the how of it would be the tricky part.
edit: Light does have magnitude, as does all energy, but magnitude was not part of my argument. mass, size, form and location are. Light is a bad example for your side, because it is not strictly energy in the same way that, for example, heat is. Photons, pure energy, do not have mass, while light may (part of the time, at least). Light is a medium for transmission of energy (yeah, this is getting into areas that I'm only on shaky ground with, but this is the way I was given to understand it), and due to the nature of it, can have mass given the right circumstances. Energy does not have form, for what is the shape of a gluon? We're talking Bosonic stuff here, which is half the damn problem. Suffice it to say, energy is not 'stuff' like matter is, and what is not 'stuff' is void. What is void is nothing. energy can exist within a void, but does not make it any less of one. therefore, create food makes something from nothing.
Yes, this is sophistry. No I don't care.
Yes, this is possible by real-world physics, never suggested it wasn't. What i DID say was that you couldn't do it without magic in SR. You can't. my point is proven.
As to nanites making 'turn to goo', sure, but can they put him back together perfectly afterwards (ie can they do it without actually breaking the holistic wholeness of his body and spirit)? Cyberlimbs for Shapechange? No, cyberlimbs can make you look odd, but they do not allow you to literally become a badger.
Tunnelling through the Metaplanes is also not teleportation (though, indeed, it may as well be), more a dimensional side-step. Also technically possible, though the how of it would be the tricky part.
edit: Light does have magnitude, as does all energy, but magnitude was not part of my argument. mass, size, form and location are. Light is a bad example for your side, because it is not strictly energy in the same way that, for example, heat is. Photons, pure energy, do not have mass, while light may (part of the time, at least). Light is a medium for transmission of energy (yeah, this is getting into areas that I'm only on shaky ground with, but this is the way I was given to understand it), and due to the nature of it, can have mass given the right circumstances. Energy does not have form, for what is the shape of a gluon? We're talking Bosonic stuff here, which is half the damn problem. Suffice it to say, energy is not 'stuff' like matter is, and what is not 'stuff' is void. What is void is nothing. energy can exist within a void, but does not make it any less of one. therefore, create food makes something from nothing.
Yes, this is sophistry. No I don't care.
Yes, this is possible by real-world physics, never suggested it wasn't. What i DID say was that you couldn't do it without magic in SR. You can't. my point is proven.
As to nanites making 'turn to goo', sure, but can they put him back together perfectly afterwards (ie can they do it without actually breaking the holistic wholeness of his body and spirit)? Cyberlimbs for Shapechange? No, cyberlimbs can make you look odd, but they do not allow you to literally become a badger.
| QUOTE (setankhtep) |
| OK I'm going to wade in on this whole thing. If you want to find a magic system that works well, take a look at the Palladium system. No spell limit per day you just have to have the energy to cast the spell. TONS of different magic classes that are pretty well balenced and unique. A player can all of the basic rules in an hour and (more importantly) all of the rules make sense!!!! Any character can use any wepon (no wep. skill, No bonuses). |
That is the best written humor piece I have seen on these boards for a long time. You almost had me, but the four exclamations in a row in the sentence right after you flagrantly used creative spelling on balance gave it away. If you want to trick people into getting into an argument about Palladium, you can use typographical errors or unlikely punctuation, but not both.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Sharaloth) |
| Light is a bad example for your side, because it is not strictly energy in the same way that, for example, heat is. Photons, pure energy, do not have mass, while light may (part of the time, at least). Light is a medium for transmission of energy (yeah, this is getting into areas that I'm only on shaky ground with, but this is the way I was given to understand it), and due to the nature of it, can have mass given the right circumstances. |
Your understanding is incorrect. Light is carried by photons. It is always massless.
Could you source that for me? I was under the impression that light carries photons, not the other way around (considering the photon is a pure unit of electromagnetic energy). And I was conceding my lack of knowledge when I accepted the premis put forth by mfb that light was 'not always massless'. I had read some things to that effect before, and decided to go with it.
Ugh. OK:
Light is composed of photons. Photons are massless particles that are propagated in waves at the speed of light. Each photon has quantifiable amount of energy which is exactly the same as every other Photon propagating in a wave with the same frequency.
Energy is equivalent to Mass by that fabulously famous equation E = M * C^2. So anything which has Energy also has Mass by definition. Does that sound like a contradiction to you? It should.
Photons are a massless particle and they have mass! What the fuck? The key here is that they are travelling at the speed of light, and anything that is moving has its measured mass increased according to special relativity. The effective mass is the normal mass times 1 divided by the (square root of( one minus (velocity squared divided by the speed of light square))). Got that?
For any particle travelling at the speed of light, its mass is actually multiplied by infinity - as the formula gives us 1 divided by zero. That's a big reason why you can't move at the speed of light - infinity times your positive mass would be enough gravity to collapse the universe in zero time. But photons are massless! So for the measured mass of a photon, you get zero multiplied by infinity, which as we know from the stern lectures of our Calculus classes gives us basically any value we want.
And that value is the Energy of each Photon which is represented by its frequency.
Are you happy? What the heck does any of that have to do with Shadowrun?
-Frank
Light is composed of photons. Photons are massless particles that are propagated in waves at the speed of light. Each photon has quantifiable amount of energy which is exactly the same as every other Photon propagating in a wave with the same frequency.
Energy is equivalent to Mass by that fabulously famous equation E = M * C^2. So anything which has Energy also has Mass by definition. Does that sound like a contradiction to you? It should.
Photons are a massless particle and they have mass! What the fuck? The key here is that they are travelling at the speed of light, and anything that is moving has its measured mass increased according to special relativity. The effective mass is the normal mass times 1 divided by the (square root of( one minus (velocity squared divided by the speed of light square))). Got that?
For any particle travelling at the speed of light, its mass is actually multiplied by infinity - as the formula gives us 1 divided by zero. That's a big reason why you can't move at the speed of light - infinity times your positive mass would be enough gravity to collapse the universe in zero time. But photons are massless! So for the measured mass of a photon, you get zero multiplied by infinity, which as we know from the stern lectures of our Calculus classes gives us basically any value we want.
And that value is the Energy of each Photon which is represented by its frequency.
Are you happy? What the heck does any of that have to do with Shadowrun?
-Frank
Light is photons, photons are light and light is always* massless.**
*Always except when the definition of mass is interperated in wierd anal-retentive ways, which is usual here on dumpshock.
This site explains it better
**This statement is subject to change as scientific understanding of the universe changes.
*Always except when the definition of mass is interperated in wierd anal-retentive ways, which is usual here on dumpshock.
This site explains it better
**This statement is subject to change as scientific understanding of the universe changes.
Frank
First of all, I was not trying to "trick" anyone into an "argument" about Palladium. I was stating an opinion. Secondly, I'm sorry I didn't notice that the moderators of this forum appointed you the fucking grammar cop.
First of all, I was not trying to "trick" anyone into an "argument" about Palladium. I was stating an opinion. Secondly, I'm sorry I didn't notice that the moderators of this forum appointed you the fucking grammar cop.
| QUOTE (Grinder) |
| @Lindt: you meant a mage with the 2nd grade of initiation, right? |
Yeah, I did. Dayquil does odd stuff to me.
But ya'll get the drift I hope? IMO, in compairison, SRs magics' big advantage is what it dosent take away. Shall I try that again?
*announcer again*
In the red corner, at 7 stone, Findarth the Halfling mage!
In the blue corner, weighing in at 20 and a half stone, Butch the troll shamen!
*ding* And theres the bell. Findarth is waving his hands and seems to be starting to speak in strange tongues. But Oooo, Butch just kicked him in he junk. This isnt starting well for the little guy. I think he just lost concentration of his Azabedalms Horrid wilting spell. And Butch has just pulled Findarths underwear over his head.
Bill, is that a thong?! Ok, the troll is stepping back to admire his handy work, and the hobling is looking rather steamed. Butch seems to be sticking his hand down the front of his pants, and it appears like his looking for something. Oh look out, the hobbit just got a snap shot off, and it sounded like a Power Word stun! From our fact sheet, that should be the end of Findarths 8th level spells. Butch looks very, erh, stunned and the turn of events. And Findarth is falling back, and from the look of the tiny platinum sword this is going to get messy.
Thats right Dave, a Mordnkainens magical sword. Butch is shaking the dust off, and seems to have found what hes looking for! An Ares Alpha assault rifle.
Gees, Bill what else does he have in his pants. Findarth looks like his changing his mind, and is running for the far end of the steel cage, leaving his magical sword to swing wildy at the big troll. It seems Findy is going to try a new approach. He looks like he is digging some black powder out of his robe pocket and is using his magical sword thing to prod Butch closer! This might be the match right here.
Dave, that was a massive circle of death spell, that powder must have been crushed black pearls. But butch was expecting it, and seems to have used his massive bulk and some spell shielding to shrug it off completly. He dosent look happy at all, and is leveling that Assault Rifle at Findarths head.
Holy frag, I think I just dropped one, Bill, Butch just completly faked him out and let a HUGE Power Ball. I dont think they will ever find all the peices of him after that. The halfer saw it comming but just couldent muster the body to slow it down. But wait, the Troll is falling over! I think he out did himself a bit.
Dave, the medics are saying that hes still breathing, but seems to be out cold.
The rules state that the first one to regain concenous wins, and by default, I think its safe to say that Butch is going to wake up, and Findarth wont. What do you think Bill?
I think its safe to assume that the smoking crater that used to be the season ticket holders will have the most spray from the halfling, but that dosent count in the judges eyes.
The first example was better, I think That one just rubs it in. But, one could go with a different example and pit an random D&D god against an Shadowrun ultimate NPC. The most powerful NPCs in D&D could crush the the most powerful NPCs in SR. The two systems simply don't scale the same way. In D&D, PCs start off as pittiful weaklings who die from a stubbed toe and can't cast a decent spell or swing a swrods straight but are eventually able to shrug off nuclear bombs and slay gods. In SR, PCs start off with the skills and abilities needed to survive and become slightly more profecient over time. In SR/ED, few things are more powerful than a Great Dragon and even they have severe limits on their abilities. They are slain mortal armies and corrupted by Horrors just . Even Verjigorm, going by his stats, isn't that much mroe powerful than a Great Dragon. In D&D, quasi-omnipotent deities aren't exactly rare.
Since when did this turn into a Star Trek convention? For Pete's sake it was just a show that couldn't afford the set for their shuttle yet and had to come up with a different way to get a group of people off a fictitious space ship on to a fictitious planet with green slave girls. All this scientific justification came years later.
Massive amounts of matter or energy can distort space and time, but imagine the grade of initiate you have to be to channel that much energy. I suppose you could write a "Create Wormhole" spell but you would probably have to do a Ghost Dance to pull it off. I think that really just goes to prove what kind of hot drek good ol' Harley has to be.
Spells like Acid Stream are difficult to duplicate in the real world. I man making something from nothing is kinda hard. But, my point still stands that you can easily manufacture something that sprays acid all over someone. Hence the practical effect is still re-creatable. As far as being able to use Mana to create matter, its all a matter of how you percieve the interaction between energy and matter. If you can manipulate energy on a quantum level you can create matter.
Let me dumb it down a little. I can kill people with Magic and I can kill people with Technology. One is as effective as the other. Thus answering the question of how the power level of Magic stacks. I am sure you can even kill a Dragon with the application of enough ammo. I hear the Ghost that Walks did it.
Massive amounts of matter or energy can distort space and time, but imagine the grade of initiate you have to be to channel that much energy. I suppose you could write a "Create Wormhole" spell but you would probably have to do a Ghost Dance to pull it off. I think that really just goes to prove what kind of hot drek good ol' Harley has to be.
Spells like Acid Stream are difficult to duplicate in the real world. I man making something from nothing is kinda hard. But, my point still stands that you can easily manufacture something that sprays acid all over someone. Hence the practical effect is still re-creatable. As far as being able to use Mana to create matter, its all a matter of how you percieve the interaction between energy and matter. If you can manipulate energy on a quantum level you can create matter.
Let me dumb it down a little. I can kill people with Magic and I can kill people with Technology. One is as effective as the other. Thus answering the question of how the power level of Magic stacks. I am sure you can even kill a Dragon with the application of enough ammo. I hear the Ghost that Walks did it.
Magic is powerful because it gives you flexibility and is very concealable.
You do not need components, gestures or vocalization unless you have taken a geas. You do not have to count your magical bullets or watch your mana fuel gauge or have to worry about how much armour you are wearing. It is an endless resource if you can handle the drain. So magic is very powerful. Magic has been formulated to mimic most technological advances. Most importantly magic is powerful in that it is not limited to the laws of physics. You can defy the laws of gravity with levitate, create barriers from nothing, and blow up apartments with hellblasts. Magic doesn't always create matter, it just channels it from other places.
Magic has become more and power powerful with each edition of Shadowrun. In the olden days of SR2, gunbunnies used to run at the incredible speeds and saturate an area with lead, while the mages waited back. Mages used to be key in the fact that they would get you access to restricted and hard to access places either through some kind of masking or transportation spell. They would deal with the nasty spirits, and magic wards. Each member of the team was a specialist. Now, mages do it all. They are basically as fast as a gilette, with the init rules, they pack alot of power with their mojo, and have basically replaced street sams. Physads used to be great for dealing with spirits, and are basically combat monsters with huge skill ratings. Magic is where it is at in shadowrun. There are two things that limit magic - karma, and time to research/perform. If you have enough of either there isn't anything you can't do.
You do not need components, gestures or vocalization unless you have taken a geas. You do not have to count your magical bullets or watch your mana fuel gauge or have to worry about how much armour you are wearing. It is an endless resource if you can handle the drain. So magic is very powerful. Magic has been formulated to mimic most technological advances. Most importantly magic is powerful in that it is not limited to the laws of physics. You can defy the laws of gravity with levitate, create barriers from nothing, and blow up apartments with hellblasts. Magic doesn't always create matter, it just channels it from other places.
Magic has become more and power powerful with each edition of Shadowrun. In the olden days of SR2, gunbunnies used to run at the incredible speeds and saturate an area with lead, while the mages waited back. Mages used to be key in the fact that they would get you access to restricted and hard to access places either through some kind of masking or transportation spell. They would deal with the nasty spirits, and magic wards. Each member of the team was a specialist. Now, mages do it all. They are basically as fast as a gilette, with the init rules, they pack alot of power with their mojo, and have basically replaced street sams. Physads used to be great for dealing with spirits, and are basically combat monsters with huge skill ratings. Magic is where it is at in shadowrun. There are two things that limit magic - karma, and time to research/perform. If you have enough of either there isn't anything you can't do.
Can you cast while astrally projecting, like hellblasting a team of corp guards on the other side of a wall?
heh ... kind of caught me ... As of yet, not as you were intending, you can cast but it will not physically manifest.
You will just basically deal with a bunch of drain.
You will just basically deal with a bunch of drain.
I don't know how they add it up in the great white north, but a Street Sam with bad ass reaction mods will go before a mage without sustained spells just about every time and gets to keep shooting for several initiative passes. This basically means that a poor Coyote Shaman has one chance to kill that blood crazed madman or her cute cute self is FRM (fine red mist) only after he gets to drek her day up first. At least in this edition, an average Jowena has a chance against someone with Wired Reflexes. I do agree with the complaint that its just plain smarter to be a Phys Ad than a cyberboy since you can always get more magic but you cant get more essence. To me, mages make sure that most Street Sams don't survive without a high Willpower, which is the way it should be.
So you could cast a mana bolt on a group of guards and wipe their minds?
| QUOTE (Coyote_Moya) |
| I don't know how they add it up in the great white north, but a Street Sam with bad ass reaction mods will go before a mage without sustained spells just about every time and gets to keep shooting for several initiative passes. This basically means that a poor Coyote Shaman has one chance to kill that blood crazed madman or her cute cute self is FRM (fine red mist) only after he gets to drek her day up first. At least in this edition, an average Jowena has a chance against someone with Wired Reflexes. I do agree with the complaint that its just plain smarter to be a Phys Ad than a cyberboy since you can always get more magic but you cant get more essence. To me, mages make sure that most Street Sams don't survive without a high Willpower, which is the way it should be. |
Although I am just digressing for a moment. A mage can spent 1 essence and still get some reaction/init mods or if they are smart they will quicken a reaction/init spell onto themselves and mask it to get more actions. A street same doesn't get a boat load of actions anymore with the new rule set. Most mages will get 2 actions ... and most sammies will get 3, so it is not alot more. The point of having wired reflexes and going through major modification is to get that edge. The normal joe can still kill a sammie, but just has to do a little thinking.
I agree with your last statement as well.
Magic has transitioned and overpowers chrome in SR in sr3. Sr4 tries to have the two blend together, with encouraging the partial burnout.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| So you could cast a mana bolt on a group of guards and wipe their minds? |
nope ... their mind is still on the physical plane.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Can you cast while astrally projecting, like hellblasting a team of corp guards on the other side of a wall? |
No, not in 3rd edition. Astral projection is an exclusive action. No spell casting or conjuring allowed. In 2nd edition you can, but someone on the astral can't cast a spell on someone who is ONLY in the physical and vice versa. You need something or someone dual natured to ground the spell through.
I have no idea what it's like in 4th edition.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| No, not in 3rd edition. Astral projection is an exclusive action. No spell casting or conjuring allowed. |
That's the act of projecting. You can cast spells while projected, but only mana ones at astral targets will have any affect other than drain.
I agree with Herald. Only the transition from physical to astral space was exclusive. Once there, it's not exclusive anymore.
To avoid any conflict, I have the actual wording.
| QUOTE (SR3 172) |
| To use astral projection, spend an Exclusive Complex Action to leave your body and project onto the astral plane. Remaining in astral form requires no effort, but is considered a magical activity, and so precludes any Exclusive Actions while you are astrally projecting. Returning to your body is likewise an Exclusive Complex Action. |
So it breaks manually sustained spells when projecting or returning, and horrible rule-lawyers can make a weak case that it is impossible to return to a physical body except by disruption.
You're right. I had remembered that you can't conjure while projecting.
But the other stuff I said still stands. Astral beings can't directly effect anything that's only on the physical plane, only things on the astral or on both planes.
But the other stuff I said still stands. Astral beings can't directly effect anything that's only on the physical plane, only things on the astral or on both planes.
There's a handy chart on p. 162 of exclusive actions.
Also a bad reason to be dual natured. Mana bolt from the blue.
One thing I did rather drasticly over look in my ranting was the healing-type spells. SRs, kinda panzy compaired to anything that other system can bring to bare. Bloody sustaining the spell for 20 rounds.
One thing I did rather drasticly over look in my ranting was the healing-type spells. SRs, kinda panzy compaired to anything that other system can bring to bare. Bloody sustaining the spell for 20 rounds.
Healing magic in Deadlands is at the same level 
Other RPG systems don't have medkits and hospitals.
Other systems dont have shizt like Heal (restores all but 1d4 hp instently).
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