Already did, Grinder.

City in a Bottle, anyone?

Oh, i see. Simply overread it.

That's one of the coolest spells out there

It's not too shabby, but I don't particularly see it being used seriously in a game.

hmm, by the sound of it its in the same class as those instant dwellings found in d&d, only way up there

No, it's actually the opposite of that.

Take a city, put it in a bottle.

City in a Bottle.

...and with ED spells you can blow up mountains and bring back the dead.

Call Forth the Maelstrom
Journey to Life

And since there are NPC's from that era in SR it should be possible to do both.

Really you could just say that the Ghost Dance was a big nasty death magic ritual CAll Forth the Maelstrom spell.
So the moral of the story is to go Mindprobe (natch Kyoto) Harlequin, get a ritual group together, and hold a country hostage.

The Immortal Elves and the Great Dragons still can't use their powers up to their full potential because of the low mana level.

And the situation with resurrection spells is something special. The did indeed work once. But they worked because Death had been trapped under the Death Sea by the passions. There is no indication that he still is.

there was a ritual that nethermancers could do becuase fo that, but the Journey to Life is a 15th circle wizard spell. You may be right about the low mana though. Just go ask Lung permission to cast it on Mt Taishain while the comet is over head.

Also remember that the so-called- passion Death (because it was never conclusively even proved that there was a Passion Death) would be a lot less powerful, because passions live off of the strenght of belief. When was the last time the DocWagon questor of Garlen healed you for example?

Personally I prefer a higher mortality rate in SR, I like to keep that grit. But at the same time, I feel that it should be possible. Just my opinion.

Death's existence isn't questioned anywhere in Earthdawn. The question is just if he is a passion or something different.There have never been questors of Death, besides the Keys of Death, who do not have any special powers. My vote goes for "something different".

Death's realm is even described in the "Earthdawn Survival Guide". In the "Prelude to War" supplement the dwarfs of Throal are rallied to war against Thera by prince Neden after his father being slain by Jada Denairastas. After the resulting battle and the disastrous defeat of Throal's forces resurrection spells and potions do not work like they used to for a week or so. The reason is that so much blood has been shed that Death comes close to freedom. (Actually I am not sure about this reference. It could also have been after the battle of Sky Point in the "Barsaive at War" campaign.)

Concerning the passions: They have been replaced. By new passions. There is that Theran province that worships a single passion not yet born... ("Theran Empire")

EDIT: I once GMed a whole campaign centered around the imprisonment of Death. At first the PCs wanted to stop the Keys of Death from releasing Death from the Death Sea. At last the characters themselves realised that the Passions imprisoned Death because they fear him. And that Death is necessary to make life possible. And so the characters freed Death.

point was never whether or not death existed as 'something', only that had 'it' existed as some sort of intelligence, it would no longer have the same kind of influence as before, because SR/ED magic has always worked off of a system of belief. 'Death' had power because people believed it did (ever seen Skeleton Key BTW? Good flick) That kind of power isn't going to be reflected in SR.

eh, meh. there's evidence that magic springs at least partially from belief in SR--witness the Dragon totem. whether belief can give rise to something sentient is another question completely (unless you count totems as sentients).

Is it really magic that springs from believe? Or aren't people just putting their natural magical ability in a form they are able to comprehend with their cultural background?

To an extent, you can say that the belief simply shapes the mana and how it is used. But there is evidence that the more (or less) belief behind a concept, the more powerful it becomes. Blood magic in the 4th world for example, specifically states in Magic:MMoS that the strong belief of it's power (and growing belief) strengthens blood magic for spell use and oathes. Belief (or lack of) the passions reinforces that.

There were some that were forgotten in other parts of the world in the 4th age that simply went away. The only suggestion of a Passion in the 6th world is the appearance of 'Vestrial' to Harlequin, who is rumored to have been a questor of his in the past, lending to the idea that his belief in Vestrial gives him the power to manifest, even if it isn't a belief that he tries to foster.

Everything suggests that belief plays a very big role in how magic works in SR. Look at the UMT for example, where mages can learn to summon differnet types of servants because they open their minds to the possibilty.

Thus bringing it back full circle to ressurection spells. In ED, nothing in the spell description says anyhting about Death having any effect on the spell. The caster simply weaves threads to the spirit of the deceased, drawing them back to their body (and must overcome any other spirits that might want to stop in). 6th worls mages would likely not have the same mindset about Death, so it is unlikely the idea of Death being 'free' would have any effect on their spell. Now if they had learned it from someone that believed that way from the 4th world.... who knows, it could at least make it much more difficult.

Harlequin a questor of Vestrial? Fitting. But still, the questor of a mad passion? I don't know...

Vestrial wasn't always mad. Before he was the passion of mischief and trickery (or something to that effect)

And casting a force 10 Power Ball isn't powerfull?

Not when you compare it to Void Wave. Or maybe that's just me.

sorry but what the hell is a void wave?

A spell to slay whole regiments. Always liked it.

In the sixth world a powerball is powerfull. But in the ancient times of Barsaive it would have been a mere 3 on a scale from 1 to 10.

is this from the earthdawn world i know so little about?

Yes, it is.

Without fearing to get any damage at all.

Ah, sure.

I always like to think of "magic" being like in the David Edding's series, The Belgarad and The Malloreon. That it can be done, and it can make life easier, but there are so many rules and consequences involved, that most of the time it's easier just doing the jobs by hand. That if you make it rain or fog up when it's a perfectly sunny day, it could cause weather changes all over the globe (most for the bad), but if there's a bank of fog moving in, you could kind of hurry it up a little. Also, there's no destruction either. You can't "unmake" something, because it would just end up "unmaking" you.

That way, Magic is a powerful edge, but it's not to be over-used, or it will come back to bite you in the ass later.

Magic in SHadow Run and not comparing it to other games like Dungeon and Schwagons is rather powerful in combat and othter situation.

If it was'nt then why geek the mage first?

It's "Gekk the ki-ad first, quickly" since SR3.

In SR2, the correct choice was "Geek the Street Sam First." because you were going to have a couple of actions left over to geek the enemy mage once you'd done that.

In SR3, the correct choice was "Spray down all enemies lightly with automatic fire first." because TN penalties were ginormous and applied to dodging, and everyone was otherwise going to have an action in the first initiative pass anyway.

In SR4, the correct choice is "Take Cover First" because everyone is pretty lethal, everyone's going to get an action in the first IP, and wound penalties are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.

-Frank

And in SR1, it was "You Mean I Have To Roll For Each And Every Bullet Fired? What The Hell Is Up With That, Anyway?"

Or dead, because of the drain.

He could always learn blood magic and sacrifice people to absorb it.

He could sacrifice people to generate the power to resurrect them!

A great idea!

Lets see, 6 essense for the life, +restored magic rating (if present) and a 50% death tax.
Sounds like an easy enough prospect if you can survive the learning process.

IMHO;

D&D/AD&D Magic; all the flash, major power at minor levels, no consequences (unless the GM happens to have a copy of the Dragon article about mis-cast spells & enforces it during play). I played AD&D for 15 years, and while the high-adventure aspect was appealing at the time, it tends to get too Munchkin-istic after a while.

SR; What caught my eye about SR's version was there was a cost to using magick. Mages took Drain, even for the 'insignificant' spells like Sleep or Stun. Mages lost Magic when they got seriously wounded or got too many enhancements. There was a price to pay for Initiation, whether solo or in a group. SR continues to evole.

you can't raise the dead, look under spell design, there are strict limits to what magic can and can't do. (or mainly can't)

Talain, Liper, maybe you need to RTFM. Raising the dead is like mfb said - not a general exclusion. If it is excluded somewhere, be specific.

Since there seems to be some disagreement, and I have MitS open right now:

It must be somewhere else in MitS. They do not know where, but trust them, it is there.

*announcer voice*
In the red corner, we have, weighing in at 110 lbs, Bal'Dermen, 12 level half-elf mage.
In the blue corner, weighing in a 295 lbs, Big Steve the second circle troll street mage.

*ding*
*Steve quick draws his Ceska and hoses Bal down in a hail of hot lead, breaking Bals concentration and leaving him with 10 new orifices.*

ShadowRun For The Win.

but... SR doesn't have circles!

that said, i don't see how the ability to raise the dead automatically turns the game into D&D.