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Azralon
Agreed, Frank; since the term "ghouls'" is plural and the term "flesh" is singular, then the singular pronoun "its" points to the flesh.

For the record, I'll point out that the SR author(s) made sure to vague-up the true situation by declaring the metaphysical aura deal is "a popular theory." That leaves us firmly out in the cold when trying to formulate valid theories of our own.
Azralon
By the way, if the spirit of ol' Dunkie-Z is listening, I need some up-front funding to create about a zillion triggered anchoring foci in SR3 with the Nutrition and Fast spells tied in.

There, that wasn't so hard.
Tarko
This whole discussion make me remember what my D&D group say when we come up with a bug: 'It's magic!'

Yes, I know, the answer is cheesy.

I know, Shadowrun try to come up with a 'real' reason for everything (especially ghouls)

But, in this case, not that I whant you people to come up with pretty good ideas (as so far), /me think this is one of those 'Its magic' thing. Especilly since BigD offers substential amount of nuyen for the discovry of such 'cloned' flesh.
Azralon
If if makes you feel any better, Tarko, the whole vampirism (and its variants) schtick started in the Fourth World with the hijinks of a particular Horror.

Those guys are notorious for utterly breaking the rules of reality (and even metaphysical reality). So even considering the magic factor, ghouls probably derive from stuff that absolutely refuses to make sense. smile.gif
Tarko
If that is the case, can we belive devloppers will put some horro'stuf into StreetMagic?
I mean:
Since the laws of thaumaturgy in canon are blured, at best, and they will be , probably, cleared-up in SM; can we belive they will throw-in some crazy-HOs from horors to give them the same flexibility the devloppers have already?

(PS: I'm quite sorry for the tremendous amount of spelling and grammar errors I make, I speak french, not english)
Azralon
Hey, your English is better than my French, so I personally have little room to complain.
emo samurai
Would blood work?
Tarko
/me think 'flesh' and 'blood' isnt the same thing, but then, I'm translating them into their french counter-part, so, maybe in english they ARE synonyms, but I doubt so.

But the idea of 'cloning' blood is interesting, but, for the same reason clonded flesh cant be used for ghouls, I dont see why cloned blood could be used for vampires.
Azralon
Ghouls need raw meat. Take a look a few posts back at what AH quoted in, and you can pick that out of the text. It explicitly says "flesh," then later uses the example of meat in a comparison.

And vampires don't actually need to drink blood in Shadowrun; their Essence drain power isn't fulfilled by just dropping by the local blood bank. The fluid transfer is more of a token gesture to create a link between the vamp and his victim (or donor, depending upon the social situation).
emo samurai
Um... is the essence drain permanent? Why the hell would you donate if it was?
Tarko
/me think it might be perm.
as for why peeps would whant to... see 'adiction' p.288
RunnerPaul
Because vampires are teh sex?

Seriously.

(Other RPG publishers have founded entire franchises on that principle.)

nezumi
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Um... is the essence drain permanent? Why the hell would you donate if it was?

If memory serves, essence drain is NOT permanent, but it takes time to regenerate (generally longer than it takes the vampire to need more). But I haven't been over those rules in a while.
Apathy
QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Dec 28 2005, 09:36 PM)
Um... is the essence drain permanent? Why the hell would you donate if it was?

If memory serves, essence drain is NOT permanent, but it takes time to regenerate (generally longer than it takes the vampire to need more). But I haven't been over those rules in a while.

In SR3, there were two different powers, Essence Drain, and Essence Drain (Temporary).
    Essence Drain
  • was what Vampires and Wendigos had
  • usually boosted the critter's stats for one month/point
  • was a permanent loss to the victim
  • if the target's essence reduced to 0 it died (and sometimes came back as an infected NPC)

    Essence Drain (Temporary)
  • was what Bean Sidhe and Ghede Fly had
  • only boosted the critter for one Combat Turn per point of the creature's normal Essence Rating.
  • if the target's essence was temporarily reduced to 0 they passed out, as if from deadly stun
  • the victim's essence recovers at a rate of 1 point / minute.
Darkness
And the SR4 Essence Drain doesn't mention any Essence regeneration for the victim. So it's permanent.
Grinder
Nasty.
Or an errata is needed.
Tarko
It IS nasty. But either way, perm or not, I could understand.

Perm: Would indicate that the body can regenerate essence... what happen if cyber is removed? There is the 'hole' but, could we belive the body regenerate essence lost? If such, what about growth bioware?

Temp: Since essence drain for vampire is tied with comsumsion of blood, we could argue that since the body is able to replenish amount of lost blood, essence would come back as well. And if essence is tied with 'lifeForce' the target could just sleep-it off and get back lost energy.

either way seems fine to me, but as cannon goes, the book doesnt state that its temp (nor does it state its Perm) but by the wording one could fairly assume it was meant to be Perm.
nezumi
I don't understand your problem if it's permanent. Essence loss from cyberware is permanent. Essence loss from vampire attack is permanent. What indicates that a body can regenerates essence? If it's lost, it's lost.
Grinder
That forces a vampire to look for new victims every so often. When it's not permanent it is possible that a willing victim "feeds" the vampire with its essence (cause it regenerates). That may be only matter for a minorty of vampires though wink.gif
Darkness
At least it ruins GMs plans to use a vampire seducer/seductress to play with the heavily cybered Sam.
The sam doesn't know he's in danger, he just got himself a willing lady (for example), while she just wants to well, no pun intended, honest eat him, to get her fill.
Using the sexual act as the carrier emotion to fuel the blood with essence, for instance. Well the vamp won't get much out of him, essence-wise, but he will be dead pretty easily.
If Essence Drain would happen to be a temporary reduction, this could be an interesting start for a run or a whole campaign, depending on the reaction of the sam, about being used as food.
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