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emo samurai
I'm just putting this message here because one's needed for a poll.
emo samurai
Horizon? We know NOTHING about Horizon.
boskop-albatros
horizon has gotm 25% of the vote and no-one knows anything about it?
Hell maybe they are a bunch of Scientologists-but That isn't as bad as the Azzies
Hell I'm getting to not mind the scientologists as much anymore anyways
Angenoir
Horizon is new in the sun... where is the evil in that ?? lol

Lowyr is not so bad for a dragon, Saeder-Krupp is not so evil if you look the Azzi lol
RunnerPaul
We know that Horizon are some right maniulative bastards if their coproate specialty is maniuplating public opinion via viral marketing. For some people, that's enough information to be able to peg them as the evilest mega.

Not me though. I voted for the dragon.
BookWyrm
Aztechnology still gets my vote, with Renraku a close second.
CountZero
Aztechnology through reading in fiction and source material, as well as in-game experience (my first character's first run was for Aztechnology, and my character almost got his head blown off from a cell-phone bomb).
Darkness
Aztechnology, of course. Anything that needs to pump such a big deal of its resources into public relations, has to be inevitably evil. wink.gif
hobgoblin
i dont think the label "evil" can be used on a corp.

some elements within a corp may do acts of evil, and may even use corp assets or political connections to do it. but defining a whole corp as evil based on that, nah.

a corp however is amoral. some may argue that thats a definition of evil, so be it.
Eddie Furious
Aztech, totally. Just take a look at their blood magic activities and attracting the attention of the horrors. They knew what they were doing, they knew it would bring the horrors that much closer, but they didn't care. Profit margin was what they were after and didn't give a shit about what they would bring over. And don't say otherwise, they have some intitiates who were almost double digits controlling blood magic rituals.
boskop-albatros
Of course jst looking at Everything that Horizon is into it could all be called MIND CONTROL and the way the corp is set up IT Could just as well be called a CULT; but as long as there are no BUG SPIRITS INVOLVED, everything points to Horizon being more a comment on groups that are opperating in our timeline and the celebrity culture of our timeline in paeticular (Hell Hollywood could be considered a cult in and of it's self)

This is not ment to be an Anti-Horizon post
boskop-albatros
As for the Azzies there are[where?] so bad they were just using the profits to drew the Horrors because they just got off on Evil Power Anyways
emo samurai
QUOTE
i dont think the label "evil" can be used on a corp.


Of course not. Summoning horrors is just the kind of thing that's fair game in any business environment. And as for Renraku, how is it any more evil than any other megacorporation? Besides creating an AI and imprisoning it.
mfb
you can't just say "aztechnology is evil because they perform blood magic etcetera", though. sure, blood magic is one of the things they're involved in at the top levels--but the remaining 99% of the megacorp has nothing to do with all that, and probably doesn't even believe it happens.
Liper
I voted SK cause, well they are SK, the pollute a entire nation (aztech just poluste mana) and they have a 24/7 pmsing dragon controlling thenm.
Ophis
I went for MCT as while the azzies are bigger bastards in some way they are controlled by extraplanar evil...

MTC on the other hand is completely human run, but big on dehunaising areas. Hell i don't really know I just hate them...
Grinder
QUOTE (Liper)
I voted SK cause, well they are SK, the pollute a entire nation (aztech just poluste mana) and they have a 24/7 pmsing dragon controlling thenm.

Me too. and i don't like the idea that a *single* entity controls a whole megacorp. Bah.
nick012000
I voted for the Azzies, because they've actively tried to destroy the world. Granted, most of their employees are fine, but their CEO is a Horror construct, and it is rumored that a Horror-tainted dragon is involved.
emo samurai
I don't know much about Saeder-Krupp in general, all I know is that they're controlled by a cynical, utterly manipulative dragon. How are they more evil than Aztechnology?
Clyde
Azzies. Saeder Krupp is trying to rule the world. Aztechnology wants to destroy most of it first.
Cheops
I voted Horizon because they are first and foremost a marketing and advertising/pr firm that got big and branched out. I'm sorry, viral marketing? In SR or now that is about the evilest thing there is. Primerica won't stop calling me. It's gotten to the point where I have to take my resume off of Monster. Plus it is a scientific fact that marketers are lower on the intelligence scale than single-celled organisms but clever like foxes so that makes them dangerous.
emo samurai
The nice thing about evil corporations is that you don't feel bad stealing from them.
Grinder
Never had a character (or met one) who felt bad stealing from any megacorp.
EVLTIM
Ares hands down . They put up the best public front , but they run so many black ops and screw up so many lives it isn't even a debate .
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (EVLTIM)
Ares hands down . They put up the best public front , but they run so many black ops and screw up so many lives it isn't even a debate .

Ares: We kill you with the SoTA guns we make!

Aztechnology: We kill you by slowly draining the very core of your being, then draining all of your blood in a painful and long ceremony in order to conjure forth a spirit of pure and unadulterated evil! Yay!

stevebugge
I voted for Aztechnology, well because they actually do seem to be either evil or incredibly stupid (you want to start a magic project that will force humanity in to hiding for ceturies? What kind of budget do you need Senor Oscuro?)
boskop-albatros
lets just put it in perspective----After Aztechnology's [B]32 votes S-K comes in second with .....6; yes a Big 6_Just be carful if working for Lofwyr, but to be honest the Dragon With the Worst Press is NOTHING compared to Aztechnology's Worst---I guess ripping out hearts is remembered more then possibly injesting a ...problem (ok is there accually any evedence Lofwyr ate anybody?)
boskop-albatros
wasn't quite done....in other words....Aztechnology has a much worse record then Seader-Krupp
FrankTrollman
Evidence that Lofwyr ate people? Lots. Several people have had bodies turned back over to other organizations digested.

As to Aztechnology, Darke's plan seems to have been largely without the knowledge or approval of the rest of Aztechnology. He personally was the evilest mofo that Shadowrun has thrown up in a long long time, but what did Aztechnology itself actually do that was bad since he got the axe? Not much.

They kill a lot of Maya in the Yucatan, and they fight with the Ghost Cartels that they don't own... and honestly who gives a crap? The only reason their fight with the Yucatan rebels gets used as evidence of Aztech evil is that players already associate AZT with villainy because Oscuro went batshit on company time. The board didn't approve Darke's plans, Dunkelzahn was on the board when they went down!

Compare to Renraku (Deus) or Mitsuhama (Saito) or Ares (Insects). These companies participated in villainy that was comparatively small scale. Deus wanted to enslave all humans and destroy modern society, but he wasn't a frickin horror. Saito just wanted to make himself into a dictator and commit genocide on 12 million people - Hitler did better than that and all he had backing him was IG Farbin! These acts of senseless wickedness weren't in the same league as Oscuro's world destruction plan, but they were official corporate policy.

That's why AZT isn't the most evil company. Not because their money didn't end up financing the single most evil and stupid plan to come out of any of the Megas - it totally did - but because all the other companies financed their black hatted mustach twirling with open eyes and official sanction.

-Frank
SL James
So, incomptence=evil?

Does not compute.
Grinder
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Saito just wanted to make himself into a dictator and commit genocide on 12 million people - Hitler did better than that and all he had backing him was IG Farbin!

Saito killed 12 millions people??? Where did you get that number from? I always watached him as a facist dictator who has blood on his hands, but not in this number.

It's IG Farben, btw. Back at their time probably comparable to a SR-megacorp.
mintcar
I also voted Aztechnology. They seem to be genuinely evil, not just the normal, greed-driven, corporate evil, but evil for evilīs sake. And I donīt believe the practice of human sacrifice ended with Senior Oscuro.

But I think that Ares and S-K do more evil things in a week than the azies do, simply by being more effective in general. So maybe one of them should be on top if youīre in the habit of measuring things by quantity. smile.gif
MaxHunter
I agree with Frank. Aztechnology have been the baddies for too long I am a bit bored of that angle. And they have been so because of Oscuro's plan and not much else. I mean, not much else if you compare it with companies like Ares who flare up wars every week just for profit, for example.

I perceive that the word "evil" has many different meanings and so there's much room for disagreement here, but grey is quite SR, so it's all right.

I also believe there's enough canon for any GM to play any corporation as the evil guy in his/her game... Some are easier than others, though.

Cheers

Max

FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Grinder)
Saito killed 12 millions people??? Where did you get that number from?


No. Saito didn't succeed in killing 12 million people. He wanted to commit genocide on all the metahumans in Western North America, which is to say about 12 million people (a little less than 30% metahumans, a little more than 40 million people in his target area). But he never got strong enough to even start murder factories or detention camps. He just pushed some people into reservations.

Oscuro also didn't succeed in building his bridge, so in both cases the actual harm caused was less than S-K's sweatshops in Africa. So if you're going to judge corporations by how much evil they attempt, rather than how much evil they succeed in pulling off (as you must if AZT is even on that list), then Renraku is more evil than AZT.

Renraku built Deus on purpose, and Deus did pretty much exactly what it was supposed to do except for the part where it betrayed Renraku. Aztechnology did not build Oscuro's bridge on purpose - Oscuro took AZT money and built that bridge in secret.

-Frank
JongWK
Aztechnology is #2 in the corporate world, just behind Lofwyr. However, AZT used biochemical warfare on a never-seen before scale, andhas basically corrupted one of the largest nations in the Americas.

So yeah, my vote goes to the Azzies.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
There's metatext...probably in Corporate Download, but also in other places...that specifically states that there are no 'evil' or 'good' megacorps. Megacorps are such massive organizations that they simply can't be 'all good' or 'all evil'. If anything, they all tend to be all taken together amoral. They, like all large organizations, exist to perpetuate their own existance by means determined by whomever has the power to make the relevant decisions. The 'morality' of these decisions is completely dependent on the type of person making the type of decision at the time that they do.

On the other hand, one could argue that a particular corporate culture is more beneficial to the world in general than another. It's difficult, however, to find any corp that is unsullied-or more sullied than its compatriots-as an entire organization.

That being said, Aztechnology tends to screw runners over and have them do more unsavory jobs than other megas, as well as having a pretty bad record of administration in the Yucatan and at home. Runners tend to like Ares because they're fairly straight-up and tend to treat runners better than average.

Also, Ares has the bang-bang.
SL James
It's not metatext; Chromed Accountant said it on like the first or second page of Corp Download.
Mr.Platinum
I'd say those Aztec's are very nasty.
emo samurai
QUOTE
so in both cases the actual harm caused was less than S-K's sweatshops in Africa.


You mean most of the other megacorps don't have as many sweatshops? I'd have thought that sweatshops were more or less par for the course for megacorps.
Azralon
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 26 2005, 02:43 AM)
As to Aztechnology, Darke's plan seems to have been largely without the knowledge or approval of the rest of Aztechnology. He personally was the evilest mofo that Shadowrun has thrown up in a long long time, but what did Aztechnology itself actually do that was bad since he got the axe? Not much.

Well, there's the fact that there are Horrors on the board of directors and the possibility that the CEO is a Shedim.

All unfounded rumors generated by our envious competitors, of course. At Aztechnology, it is our solemn mission statement to blend old traditions with new innovations in order to offer total satisfaction to our loyal consumers.

.... Consumers of souls, that is.
stevebugge
COuple of other nominees (non canon) Virtucon (the CEO is Dr. Evil after all) and Initech (what is Bill Lumberg if not evil?) and yes both have made several appearances in our games.
Azralon
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Dec 25 2005, 04:07 AM)
And as for Renraku, how is it any more evil than any other megacorporation? Besides creating an AI and imprisoning it.

I wouldn't call creating an AI as an evil act; it was the AI itself that was "evil" (read: "aggressively harming sentients to accumulate greater power for itself").

And it was Deus that locked down the arcology as a defensive measure, if I recall. Now, the head developer -- I forget her name -- did trap Mae and rip out some of her code to use in what eventually became Deus. She didn't do that above-board, though, so Renraku itself can't be held responsible for her haxx0ring shortcuts.

Not to suggest that Renraku is squeaky clean. Just saying that the lockdown wasn't so much the company's fault as one person's.
apollo124
I had to vote for the Azzies also. I seem to recall besides the whole Oscuro deal, doesn't Aztechnology support (or at least broadcast and sponsor) that game where the losers are routinely sacrificed after a loss? Add in the aforementioned blood magic/spirits, the massive blood sacrifices to narrow the gap to the Horrors, and their generally unsavory attitude about pulling black-ops shadowruns(to the point to where even in character runners question the ethics of taking on an Azzie sponsored run). I don't think anyone else even comes close.
boskop-albatros
Ok OK I've got just one question about Lofwyr-Those poor slots he swallowed?-Did he actually swallow them digest them and then--pass them as Waste material?(YUCK!), OR did he swallow them and them barf! Them back up-(I mean how will you be able to scare someone if the proof you ATE! a metahuman is basicly POOP!!??) [and maybe it is a greatter insult if a dragon swallows you and then purges you're ass]{damm mamel
boskop-albatros
Ok OK I've got just one question about Lofwyr-Those poor slots he swallowed?-Did he actually swallow them digest them and then--pass them as Waste material?(YUCK!), OR did he swallow them and them barf! Them back up-(I mean how will you be able to scare someone if the proof you ATE! a metahuman is basicly POOP!!??) [and maybe it is a greatter insult if a dragon swallows you and then purges you're ass]{damm mammal isn't even worth digesting}
Oracle
My vote goes for Horizon. Why? Well, not for what is known about it, but for the things that are not known yet. The information about happy employees and less hierarchical structures makes me more than suspicious. Possibly the authors are building up a new bad guy for the metaplot. Call it a prophetic vision.... smile.gif
Cynic project
QUOTE (JongWK)
Aztechnology is #2 in the corporate world, just behind Lofwyr. However, AZT used biochemical warfare on a never-seen before scale, andhas basically corrupted one of the largest nations in the Americas.

So yeah, my vote goes to the Azzies.

Western front? Nam?
Aku
QUOTE (boskop)
I mean how will you be able to scare someone if the proof you ATE! a metahuman is basicly POOP!!??)


Yea, but imagaine the SIZE of the metahuman poop.
emo samurai
QUOTE
Yea, but imagaine the SIZE of the metahuman poop.


EWW.

And your point about Horizon is probably right.

[ Spoiler ]
Mr.Platinum
I see that the azzies are still in the lead on the poll.
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