Can a person with cybereyes set their eyes to record all input, and replay it instantly, thereby allowing the user to see people under the invisiblity spell?
You are then technically seeing a recording of something that just happened, a record, and not your interpetaion of the world.
Full Version: Invisibility and Playback
Old trick, new edition.
Since you can basically do the same thing with glasses/goggles/contacts, I don't see anything wrong with cybereyes working like that.
There can't be any visual lag due to processing, otherwise things like thermographic would likewise be lagged (and have corresponding rules).
Since you can basically do the same thing with glasses/goggles/contacts, I don't see anything wrong with cybereyes working like that.
There can't be any visual lag due to processing, otherwise things like thermographic would likewise be lagged (and have corresponding rules).
If they have Improved Invisibility, the spell makes them not appear on digital media, so the trick doesn't work. If they have regular Invisibility, the spell makes you unable to perceive them visually until the spell ends. So you still can't see them, because the spell is still functioning. Your recording goggles can see the target, but you can't.
But nice try.
-Frank
But nice try.
-Frank
Frank got it in one.
If it is basic invisibility, it is you that is effected, not your media. As an FYI, if you could see the guards watching the sec cams and they were within the range of the spell, than they would not see you on their cameras either.
If it was improved invisibility it affects the cameras too.
If it is basic invisibility, it is you that is effected, not your media. As an FYI, if you could see the guards watching the sec cams and they were within the range of the spell, than they would not see you on their cameras either.
If it was improved invisibility it affects the cameras too.
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist) |
| if you could see the guards watching the sec cams and they were within the range of the spell, than they would not see you on their cameras either |
Hrm, I'll have to look into the wording on that.
Yep, I'll buy that regular Invis hides you from indirect viewing, too.
Then the question is, would the guard 2 stories up in the security room see you on the camera monitors as you walk down the passage with invis on or would he be affected as well and would only see you when he replayed the tape over later once the spell had droped.
Imp Invis of course nothing would show up on the camera for him to see anyway.
Imp Invis of course nothing would show up on the camera for him to see anyway.
| QUOTE (Tashio) |
| Then the question is, would the guard 2 stories up in the security room see you on the camera monitors as you walk down the passage with invis on or would he be affected as well and would only see you when he replayed the tape over later once the spell had droped. |
If he's not in the range of the spell he can't be affected.
If he's outside of the range of the non-Improved spell, it doesn't matter how he's viewing you. The spell won't come into play.
Edit: Darkness FTW!
Edit: Darkness FTW!
I would say no, but to me it's more of a game-balance issue. Just having cybereyes shouldn't allow you to bypass Invisibility, that takes to big of a trick out of the mages bag. As for a reason [GM BS]it's because the spell affects the way your brain percieves things, not just the simple mudane process of sight. The cybereyes record and transmit it to your brain, but the brain simply ignores the information, just like it does sometimes with convential eyesight.[/GM BS]
However, if a clever player of mine DID come up with this idea, I might allow something like it. If they had reason to belive an invisible mage was nearby, they could review the tape of their cybereyes, and the mage would be there (assuming this is just regular invisibility). Rember in SR4 all cybereyes include cameras and presumably some storage memory. If the player in question wanted to use these recordings to fight the mage, I would allow it. After a succesfull Computer+Logic(2) test, he could see via his recordings after a short lag (a second or so). This would impose a -3 dice penalty on all test that require vision unless the player took 3 times as long to do it. This would be better than shooting blind (-6) but not by alot.
If you REALY want to see invisible mages, get ultrasound eyes, that works against invisiblity (but not silence!)
However, if a clever player of mine DID come up with this idea, I might allow something like it. If they had reason to belive an invisible mage was nearby, they could review the tape of their cybereyes, and the mage would be there (assuming this is just regular invisibility). Rember in SR4 all cybereyes include cameras and presumably some storage memory. If the player in question wanted to use these recordings to fight the mage, I would allow it. After a succesfull Computer+Logic(2) test, he could see via his recordings after a short lag (a second or so). This would impose a -3 dice penalty on all test that require vision unless the player took 3 times as long to do it. This would be better than shooting blind (-6) but not by alot.
If you REALY want to see invisible mages, get ultrasound eyes, that works against invisiblity (but not silence!)
| QUOTE (MaxMahem) |
| Just having cybereyes shouldn't allow you to bypass Invisibility, that takes to big of a trick out of the mages bag. |
However depending on how poor a someone does on their computer security for their commlink and their cybereyes, the trick it takes out of the mage's bag gets put in the hacker's bag.
For those of you who remember some of the pre-release hype: "Mobile Digital Wizards" indeed.
the non-improved invisibility spell have allways been a topic of discussion. hell, the improved variant to have been so.
thing is that they do not have area of effects or targets in the normal sense. instead they work on line of sight between the target thats coverd by the spell and the people or electronics observing the area the target is in.
the problem basicly boils down to vague wordings on a very powerfull spell.
one thing one have to keep in mind is that the non-improved spell is a mana spell (or atleast it was in the older versions) and therefor affect only living beings. therefor, i would say that if the observers have LOS to whatever is coverd by the spell, they cant see a thing. this would include watching via mirrors and fiber optics (a mage can still use astral sight if he wants to).
this will allso include people using googles, contacts or cybereyes. why? because the image is being manipulated in their brain.
step around the corner and poke a old fashion camera around the corner and the story becomes a diffrent one. but then the wizard is allways best of using the improved variant. it can do all the trickes the non-improved can, pluss take care of cameras and other visual based sensors.
why? the image is most likely modified right after its getting picked up, so whatever is saved or sendt on to other electronics connected to the visual sensor will be a edited version. the other option is that the spell is able to modify the very light that get bounced of the target of said spell, thereby making him visualy not there
thing is that they do not have area of effects or targets in the normal sense. instead they work on line of sight between the target thats coverd by the spell and the people or electronics observing the area the target is in.
the problem basicly boils down to vague wordings on a very powerfull spell.
one thing one have to keep in mind is that the non-improved spell is a mana spell (or atleast it was in the older versions) and therefor affect only living beings. therefor, i would say that if the observers have LOS to whatever is coverd by the spell, they cant see a thing. this would include watching via mirrors and fiber optics (a mage can still use astral sight if he wants to).
this will allso include people using googles, contacts or cybereyes. why? because the image is being manipulated in their brain.
step around the corner and poke a old fashion camera around the corner and the story becomes a diffrent one. but then the wizard is allways best of using the improved variant. it can do all the trickes the non-improved can, pluss take care of cameras and other visual based sensors.
why? the image is most likely modified right after its getting picked up, so whatever is saved or sendt on to other electronics connected to the visual sensor will be a edited version. the other option is that the spell is able to modify the very light that get bounced of the target of said spell, thereby making him visualy not there
The spell description says Improved Invisibility creates "an actual warping of light around the subject" and never mind how the subject can still see. 
ok, then atleast improved invisibility is coverd.
now we just sit back and wait for someone to post a question about imp. invisibility and laser based weapons...
now we just sit back and wait for someone to post a question about imp. invisibility and laser based weapons...
ok... what happens if someone under the effects of improved invisibility gets shot with a laser?
(from the GM's perspective): clearly light going into the light-warping area is unaffected. only light leaving is affected. thus, you would be hit as normal (provided you are indeed hit), but the laser would be negated (thus, if it deals 40 boxes of damage and you have only 10 available, it would not burn through anything behind you, it would just stop).
of course, now you get into another fun question:
what happens when someone under the effect of improved invisibility fires a laser
(from the GM's perspective): clearly light going into the light-warping area is unaffected. only light leaving is affected. thus, you would be hit as normal (provided you are indeed hit), but the laser would be negated (thus, if it deals 40 boxes of damage and you have only 10 available, it would not burn through anything behind you, it would just stop).
of course, now you get into another fun question:
what happens when someone under the effect of improved invisibility fires a laser
While both spells involve a subject making a roll, there are circumstances to when you have a roll.
1) if it's regular invis, any living target that might see the target with their eyes. If a camera or similar is ever involved, however, there is no secret - they see you. Cybereyes, being connected to your brain, may be the exception to the rule. mentally, the person doesn't see it, but the eyes might still record the person if you're recording.
That is the one thing I can't really argue on, because I'm not sure how it'd work. ^-^;
2) improved invis works on the cameras and the people, but if you view the camera's footage from another room, you don't get a save - you are viewing what the camera saw, and as long as you beat the camera, that's all you get. Now if you walk 'past' the guard and he's looking that way, obviously there's a roll.
3) If you shot them with a laser, I belive the laser would be stopped. while the spell basically warps light, it does not warp your physical presence. if the laser doesn't scatter in a funny pattern, then it'll be stopped by your body.
1) if it's regular invis, any living target that might see the target with their eyes. If a camera or similar is ever involved, however, there is no secret - they see you. Cybereyes, being connected to your brain, may be the exception to the rule. mentally, the person doesn't see it, but the eyes might still record the person if you're recording.
That is the one thing I can't really argue on, because I'm not sure how it'd work. ^-^;
2) improved invis works on the cameras and the people, but if you view the camera's footage from another room, you don't get a save - you are viewing what the camera saw, and as long as you beat the camera, that's all you get. Now if you walk 'past' the guard and he's looking that way, obviously there's a roll.
3) If you shot them with a laser, I belive the laser would be stopped. while the spell basically warps light, it does not warp your physical presence. if the laser doesn't scatter in a funny pattern, then it'll be stopped by your body.
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon) |
| While both spells involve a subject making a roll, there are circumstances to when you have a roll. 1) if it's regular invis, any living target that might see the target with their eyes. If a camera or similar is ever involved, however, there is no secret - they see you. Cybereyes, being connected to your brain, may be the exception to the rule. mentally, the person doesn't see it, but the eyes might still record the person if you're recording. That is the one thing I can't really argue on, because I'm not sure how it'd work. ^-^; 2) improved invis works on the cameras and the people, but if you view the camera's footage from another room, you don't get a save - you are viewing what the camera saw, and as long as you beat the camera, that's all you get. Now if you walk 'past' the guard and he's looking that way, obviously there's a roll. 3) If you shot them with a laser, I belive the laser would be stopped. while the spell basically warps light, it does not warp your physical presence. if the laser doesn't scatter in a funny pattern, then it'll be stopped by your body. |
Improved Invisibility doesn't bend light, it alters the viewing device. A laser will kill the magician just as dead only no one will see it. If the spell is being sustained by someone else then the corpse would remain invisible kind of like that episode of the X-files.
I don't think the you should put to much thought into the mechanics behind magic. It's MAGIC after all, it doesn't have to be logicaly consistant. I mean magic is pretty much defined by the ability to do things that logicaly are impossible. Improved invisibility shields you totaly from visual observation because that is what it is inteded to do. It doesn't shield you from laser blasts because that is NOT what it is inteded to do.
If you want a reason for it could be because magic is much more conserned with the meta-physical then the physical. Invisibility makes you invisible because it blocks the "concept" of sight. It doesn't block laser blasts because that concept is diffrent. Physical reality often has very little to do with the how and why of magic. It operates on it's own set of rules entirely. Rules that do not always coniside nicely with the physical reality of our universe, and the interal logic therin.
If you want a reason for it could be because magic is much more conserned with the meta-physical then the physical. Invisibility makes you invisible because it blocks the "concept" of sight. It doesn't block laser blasts because that concept is diffrent. Physical reality often has very little to do with the how and why of magic. It operates on it's own set of rules entirely. Rules that do not always coniside nicely with the physical reality of our universe, and the interal logic therin.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 1 2006, 02:42 AM) | ||
Improved Invisibility doesn't bend light, it alters the viewing device. A laser will kill the magician just as dead only no one will see it. If the spell is being sustained by someone else then the corpse would remain invisible kind of like that episode of the X-files. |
actually, according to Page 202, improved invisibility explicitly creates an actual warping of light around the subject.
according to page 201, physical illusions create actual images or alter physical properties, such as light or sound.
| QUOTE (Hasaku) |
| The spell description says Improved Invisibility creates "an actual warping of light around the subject" and never mind how the subject can still see. |
And you don't know how I felt, when I saw that the poor german translation in SR3 concerning the effects of physical illusions now turned up in the english version of SR4 for the improved invis spell.
In SR3 the physical spells created "false" sensory input directly within the perceiving entity (camera, biological oder cybered eye). No light warping that renders the target under the spell physically blind and also immune to laser attacks.
But hey .. "eyery thing is better now in SR4" ... or so ...
Keep in mind I never said the laser wouldn't work - I was specifically avoiding intense lasers that could kill. Yes, they would kill the invisible one, and if it didn't bore a hole through them, it'd be blocked too.
In either case, you'd see the beam 'stop' or have a break in it from the body.
and yadda yadda, what they said, what he said, etc, etc.
Yes, they would kill the invisible one, and if it didn't bore a hole through them, it'd be blocked too.In either case, you'd see the beam 'stop' or have a break in it from the body.
and yadda yadda, what they said, what he said, etc, etc.
I just say the spell recreates the light hitting it for your benefit, so you can see. Lasers are too intense to redirect and are unaffected.
...MAGIC!
...MAGIC!
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon) |
| Keep in mind I never said the laser wouldn't work - I was specifically avoiding intense lasers that could kill. Yes, they would kill the invisible one, and if it didn't bore a hole through them, it'd be blocked too. In either case, you'd see the beam 'stop' or have a break in it from the body. and yadda yadda, what they said, what he said, etc, etc. |
The more important point for me in this particular situation is:
Light being bent around an object is a manipulation of said light and not an illusion of not seeing the target, because you actually can't see the target once the light is warped. Yet another difficulty in terms of mechanics and SR4 magic is, that only the bent light itself could possibly resist against the spell, but not the perceiver. But since light isn't a living being that resistance is impossible ...
Thus spell is in the wrong category and by its current decription should not allow for any spell resistance test, regardless of "magical" explainations why laser light would suddenly not being affected when compared to "ordinary" light.
| QUOTE (Cold-Dragon) |
| 1) if it's regular invis, any living target that might see the target with their eyes. If a camera or similar is ever involved, however, there is no secret - they see you. Cybereyes, being connected to your brain, may be the exception to the rule. mentally, the person doesn't see it, but the eyes might still record the person if you're recording. That is the one thing I can't really argue on, because I'm not sure how it'd work. ^-^; |
Cybereyes have been paid for with essence and are part and parcel of the person they are implanted in, so they would be effected for the same reason that magic never considers cyberware seperate from the host for the purposes of targetting.
| QUOTE (Talain) |
| Cybereyes have been paid for with essence and are part and parcel of the person they are implanted in, so they would be effected for the same reason that magic never considers cyberware seperate from the host for the purposes of targetting. |
I think that's a sidesteping of the issue. Mana based visual illusion spells don't affect the eyes, they affect the perceptions of the living being. The image sensors in the cybereye would still pick up the image of ithe invisible mage, but when the image is processed by the visual cortex, that's where the spell intercedes and says "This is not the mage you are looking for. Move along."
Just because they're implants paid for with essence, it doesn't entirely negate the fact that it's a technological based sensor. Consider the case of the vision magnification accessory for cybereyes. Comes in two flavors: Optical Lenses, and Electronic Enhancement. If you were to implant cybereyes with Electronic Magnification into a magic user, they would find that they suffer a total loss of Line of Sight when they turn the zoom on, even though they paid essence for the cybereye and it's "a living part of their body".
What about an agent program running on the cybereyes, analysing the visual datastream and telling you the number and positions of people around you... A bit like... say... a smartlink system. Would it be affected by invisibility?
| QUOTE (prionic6) |
| What about an agent program running on the cybereyes, analysing the visual datastream and telling you the number and positions of people around you... A bit like... say... a smartlink system. Would it be affected by invisibility? |
I think that comes down to your GMs interpretation of exactly how invisibility works. If this agent gives you a count of people nearby, or maybe brackets everyone's position, but the invisibility spell is constantly telling your brain "these aren't the droids you're looking for," I could see a GM reasonably assuming that the invisibility would prevent you from noticing anything indicating the position of the target. I could also see the GM considering this to be a very clever solution, in that it still would not let you see the target, but may well give you a good indication of where to spray-n-pray.
The problem is, if it works, it would become a standard accessory on all cybereyes, googles and contacts, rendering the invisibility spell useless... If it can not already be seen as useless. I've never seen anyone pick it over the improved version.
I'm inclined to agree. These aren't the droids we're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| I think that comes down to your GMs interpretation of exactly how invisibility works. If this agent gives you a count of people nearby, or maybe brackets everyone's position, but the invisibility spell is constantly telling your brain "these aren't the droids you're looking for," I could see a GM reasonably assuming that the invisibility would prevent you from noticing anything indicating the position of the target. |
That sounds a bit like the description of the "See-Me-Not" spell from Silver Angel, the module bundled with the first edition GM Screen.
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