I'm utterly split; Lung has a better overall goal, since it benefits pretty much everyone. Ryumyo seems much more selfish; however, Ryumyo's greatest servant is a living memento to Lung, while Lung gives no sign that he cares about Ryumyo (or anybody) nearly so much.

Given that Dragon's are pretty much all out for their own ends, I'd go with Lung because he seems to be more patient and careful about how he goes about it. Ryumyo seems to be (as Dragons go) Impulsive and heavy handed, and therefore more likely to cause serious collateral damage in the process of attaining his goals.

Both are complete jerks and want to dominate mankind. Lung wants to tear everything that humans have built down, Ryumyo wants to create a fascist police state that he can subvert and control from within. Both goals are horrible and antithetical to human life.

However, Lung's goals and methodologies are worse humans, even if they fail. So Ryumyo is the "better" dragon from the standpoint of humanity. And as a human myself, that's the only POV that matters. Lung's goal of anarchy run under a strict paternalist doctrine with him at the top is the worst possible form of government, and would probably kill more people than just making death camps.

...Which ironically is exactly what Ryumyo wants to build, so it's a close close call.

-Frank

I can´t get into brash people and thoug I like both cultures resembling this pair, I´m more a fan of chinese mentality and culter over japanese, so my choise is clear.

Edit: @ Frank
Well ok, all the Dragons ar no big friends of humanity. Ryumyo is as close as Dragons get to megalomania and You don´t know what will become of him, if his plans succede, he propably wouldn´t mind sacrificing all humankind to become more than just a great dragon.

Ryumyo wants to make death camps? I never read that in Dragons of the Sixth World. I thought he just made tsunamis by consuming magical energy. And Lung wants to tear down everything humans have built up and put himself at the top? I thought he just supported religion and wanted to do geomantic acupuncture... They both suck.

@Frank
I´m beginning to realize, we did not understand the question in the same way. I didn´t read it as "what dragon is the better one", but rather, which style & story suited me more. But as stated above, I´d still chose Lung.

How did You get the impression about these two spellworms being that drastic? I can´t remember getting a similar expression by reading "Mob War" and Dot6W. It´s been a time since I read these two. Are there any other sorces you would recomand?

@stevebugge
speaking of them, You know what this smiley remindet me of?

RRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH TOO MUCH VIEWING NOT ENOUGH VOTING RRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!! (Insert rabid-wolf-man icon.)

I'm a big Ryumyo fan. In my youth I was all about quiet scheming, but as I grow older I find myself more and more appreciating the straightforwardness of running in and breaking things.

~J

@ emo sam
Just open a new poll on the same topic and I´m going to vote again

So... they DON'T want to take over the world? I read Dragons of the Sixth World practically cover to cover, and they said nothing about wanting to take over the world with death camps or an insane theocracy.

Lung has far prettier art work. That and he is sneakier.

agreed on the artwork.

Lung has a much subtler style that I appreciate. The likeness to a poker player made in DoSW I thought was very neat. Where you got the idea of megalomania I don't know. Remeber that Lung was around in the 4th world where tearing down all things human would have been not so much a problem as now. If he wanted to, he would/ probably could have. Also remember that eastern dragons have adopted families often, including Lung. An adopted niece (I think niece, how ever the hell you adopt a niece) was mentioned in SoA for example.

Ryumyo I see just as selfish and hot headed. Too heavy handed for my taste. And not thorough enough, otherwise his little '61 mess might not have been such a mess.

What's his '61 mess?

The Philippines and supporting a rebellion, I think. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

well, blowing up a good chunk of Japan for one, with his screwed up ritual for one That lost him a lot of control that he had over Japan, especially with the new emporer, who doens't really see eye to eye with him.

Then there's the mess in the Phillipines, because of the mess in Japan. Ryumyo had control of that area through the coprs and the yaks, and when the marines and some of the corps started pulling out, so did the yaks, So he had to send his servant Naheka (a feathered serpent sworn to him) down there to get the situation under control. Naheka was keeping htings under control in Hawai'i for Ryumyo, because he took control of the area with some rebels (ALOHA) that Ryumyo didn't want rebelling once he got the control that he wanted. So Hawai'i should be heating up now that that particualr check is out of the way. So Ryumyo is loosing his grip on many of his main interstes.

The yaks in Seattle oging independant of his pet Rengo hasn't helped either, and he can't do much about it do to his other problems.

That help?

As a pair those two are great, but kind of lacking when separated. I loved the notion in DoTSW where it is said, that they visit eachother now and then and tries to outdo the other in politeness.

@Frank - Tbh I didnt know that about Lung. I knew about Ryumyo's rashness and impatience (for a dragon), but not that Lung was a destroyer of man ... The impression I got from what I have read is that he is a conservatist, who supports religion and spiritism, not a scorcher as such.

Between the two I guess I have to go with Ryumyo, since he is the flag being of the Japanese ... plus he was the first to be noticed by humankind in the 6th world, much to Dunkelzahn's dismay

...

My favorate dragon is Masaru though ... He is eastern as well

Has to be Lung, as his name is the chinese word for dragon. Probably because the chinese define dragons as things like Lung. He IS the archetypla eastern dragon. That is cool. Plus he seems less of an asshole than Ryumyo

The big three for humanity-dominating, if I remember my notes correctly, are Lofwyr, Alamais, and Dunkelzahn. Vast Green is more about smacking some Immortal Elves back into their places.

~J

yeah, Sirrug is awesome.

I've always been a big fan of Alamaise too, even though he always gets smacked down. His history is just really cool.

But Lung has always been my favorite.

OK...

Why is Ryumyo a total cock?

Simple really. Look at the enterprises he finances. Phillipines, California, see a pattern? Ryumyo's goon posse likes to take South East Asians and Metahumans and put them into internment camps. Ryumyo is a total cock.

Why is Lung a total cock?

Simple really. He destroyed the People's Republic of China. A laudable enough thing to do I suppose, but why did he do it? Was it because the PRC was a repressive totalitarian regime? Hell no! Lung helped bring it down because it was too Socialist. Lung was fine with the totalitarianism, he just thought that China was providing too many social services. Lung is an "arch conservative" - with the thing he's conserving being the part where humanity hides in caves and dragons rule the Earth. Lung is a total cock.

Really, both dragons are extremely regressive. Ryumyo wants to set humanity back 140 years or so to the heyday of Facism. Lung wants to set humanity back a couple thousand years to the wonderful world of Feudalism. The Hitler vs. Stalin boxing match is a quite accurate analogy. They are both ruthless megalomaniacs who want to overthrow modern econmic and social policies on the grounds that they give too much power to the common man.

But given the choice, I guess that I'd rather go with Ryumyo. At least he'd make the trains run on time. If Lung has his way, we don't get to have trains at all.

---

Sirrurg, OTOH, is frickin awesome. He goes around killing Immortal Elves (yay!) and he doesn't understand economic or social policy well enough to want to deal with it, asking that it take care of itself somehow and largely leave the environment alone. He's ended up as a Green Social Democrat on the grounds that it's less work for him. That's totally hillarious.

-Frank

I like Ryo-Myu, cause he's out for the power, but Lung's goal is for all of methumanity.

Frank: That's not the interpretation of Lung that I had gathered from how I had seen Lung presented. I saw more as the distanced icon type. The one that takes care of thigns that need to be taken care of form a distance and doesn't much bother with the rest of what is around him. His work on the dragon lines of the Ring of Fire as an example of that. He didn't fight Ryumyo to make him stop, or even mention it to anyone. There was barely a ripple up until the actual event. Lung just took care of what he could. Did his business and that was that. The people that are interested in following him, in a sense, do become his vassals, as is proper for a dragon emporer. Everyone else... is just everyone else. They're not his concern as long as they don't get in to his afairs.

That being said, I like where you've gone, or should I say, your take on Lung. It's very different from what I thought, but it has a nice flavor to it. If I hadn't already pretty well developed Lung in my game, I might go with your take on it. It gives a lot of possibilities. Plus that whole nice dystopian feel. I still see that with my take on him, becuase, as you said, his out look is still very feudal. But I don't se him as bent on the domination of mankind. Just ruling his area as he sees fit, not unlike Ghostwalker. Or any of the others really. Even Hestaby has her own take on how htings should be done, and enforces her will in her domain. And she is argueably the most progressive dragon after Dunkelzhan (who was still pretty cut throat, as revealed after his death).

Okay you guys. Don't go thinkin Dragons are nice now.

Say it with me.

Never, ever cut a deal with a dragon.


Notice that NEVER EVER part. Bad juju.

I say nerf both of the worms. I am surprised that a few of the scaley bellies have not been aerated just to keep them a little more humble. Mount a few skulls on poles and send the message that meta humans are just not going to take their crap.

Yeah, major dragons are never actually killed except by themselves or other dragons.

Until DotSW humanity had taken down a Great Dragon pretty easily.

~J

Alas it was true, with a panther assault weapon and a lot of combat pool you could do well against a dragon if you planned your assault properly. (Remember the old days when you could mow down a dragon with a vindicator minigun? 15 shot full auto of course)

While I agree that dragons should be tough, REALLY Tough, their toughness should come through preparation, and resources, not God-like invincibility like Ghost Walker who destroyed most of Denver and how many infantry divisions. Now dragons are SR's version of God avatars I guess.

When I learned that Ryumyo summoned Juronji to be as much like Lung as possible, I was just like, "Awwww...." The book says he wanted Lung to be his conjurer; did he want Lung to be his servant, or something? If so, then I can understand why Lung doesn't like him.

Had to vote Ryumyo, simply because he's been a long-standing thorn in the side for the PC's in my campaign. Lung I always saw as a kind of subtle, nicer version of Lofwyr. He plays the game and advances his agenda while blocking others', but doesn't micromanage or put his face on everything.

Great Dragons have been taken down by metahumanity. Just not in the age.
unless Sonodar was a great, but I don't think he was.

And Ghostwalker wasn't the first one to destroy a city remember. Aden did it first, and better (or at least more thoroughly).

GhostWalker did have prepration, along with the support of the Draco Foundation and a buttload of bound spirits.

Was Fire wing actually a Great? I was under the impression that he was just an adult.

And the fact the Ghostwalker did have time to prepare, and still had to do hit and runs, speaks highly (to me at least) of Aden's ability to kick @ss, since s/he did in an entire city solo, in one 'sitting'. Personally, I think Aden is Aben from ED, despite the differences in physicla descrption, because of their personality similarities, and willinges to kick the crap out of anyone and anything directly, but usually working very deeply and queitly behind the scenes.

Not to minimize his achievement, but keep in mind exactly what city Aden was trashing. I suspect Denver (with all its border tensions and anti-smuggling measures from a slew of powerful nations) was an order of magnitude more well-equipped to deal with rampaging dragon than Tehran.

~J

Maybe Ghostwalker was channeling a powerful enough spirit to give it Immunity to Normal Weapons at a high enough level to make it immune to anything without an N in the damage code.

Yeah, Denver was kind of occupied by several well-armed armies and was the focal point of international North American diplomatic tension; it would be like trying to attack Switzerland during a huge summit talk, except with large chunks of the participating nations' armies present.

More like cold war berlin I think. A vast accomplishment of Icewing anyway. Was Ryomyo actually ever involved in major physical combat in the 6th World? Lung was during the Triad-Wars in the decomposing PRC in the years after the awakening, before he vanished from public viewe.

Also keep in mind the timing. Folk in 2061 were probably a bit more prepared to deal with magical assaults than folk in a magic-hating part of the world of 2020.

To reinforce just how early that is, Goblinization hasn't even happened yet—Orks and Trolls don't appear (aside from possible single early births, similar to Spike Babies) until the next year.

~J

Voldemort? Elvis? Hastur?

Check out the 'Mama Iaga' thread a few pages in , or the 'Ghostwalker *spoiler*' in the SR4 section. We've been batting around some conspiracy theories already.

I'm sure that there's an MITT student working on his thesis right now... "How I summoned the spirit of man "Elvis"... and how he rocked the house at my frat."

Holy thinly veiled attempt at increasing post count for some reason, Batman!

You forgot: Holy Thread Necromancy Batman!