Full Version: Rollplaying defended, gender examined
There's always the question of realism, too. I don't think runners could get much more than street-level minigunning things and wailing on guitars. It's okay to be combat-oriented, as long as you take into account that life in SR4, unlike d&d, isn't a battlefield; your character isn't just a combat statistic, and he can't be if he wants to survive.
BTW, Jong's comment to that page is just so cute.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| I laughed when I read this post because in my experience I have *never* had any player, regardless of gender, ever pick up on any sort of clues or anything like that. Years ago I learned that clues don't work; I must spell everything out. Stuff that seems like it can be puzzled out in the mind of the GM just dosen't seem to work with people who aren't the GM. |
I actually have been in such campaigns before. One old D&D group I was in was run by a married couple who took turns DMing. Both of them wrote some very, very good adventures, some of which involved little combat & a lot of creative thinking on the characters' parts. One of the themes which appeared occasionally was called the 'crooked house" which was pretty much all puzzle solving. There were many hidden dangers in these scenarios as well so the element of risk was still present. These were by far some of the best games I have played in.
Maybe I''m in the minority here, but I find intrigue goes a lot farther than simply holding down the trigger until the ammo runs out.
sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. it depends on the players, the GM, and the alignment of the stars and planets. i remember spending three hours one night trying to get the players to figure out one tiny clue (i ended up having to have an NPC tell them). that same group, two weeks later, managed to bypass 3/5 of the dangerous elements of an adventure because of a minor detail i let slip in passing.
i, personally, enjoy figuring things out while i'm holding down the trigger.
i, personally, enjoy figuring things out while i'm holding down the trigger.
Has anyone ever had an experience with a text adventure game in which you couldn't figure out which obscure command was required to be used on which obscure object complete a specific task?
Has anyone ever had an experience with a graphical adventure game in which you couldn't figure out which obscure object was required to be used on which obscure pixel complete a specific task?
Yeah, this is why I avoid these types of adventure games now.
Sometimes, clues have to be so obvious as to be cliche in order to acually give the players a chance to puzzle them out in a reasonable span of time. Of course, even Sherlock Holmes misinterperated the evidence one in a while. Beating them over the head with it may not be enough at times, unless the GM and the players have very similar thought processes.
That is the trick there. The players have to think the same way that the GM thought and they must have the same experiences that the GM had to draw from. A subtle word pun may work perfectly on a native speaker but be completely lost on someone who is just learning the language, for example. Without shared experiences and shared logic a clue meant to point in one direction can easily point to another.
Incomplete pictures of the world don't help much either. Some puzzles rely on visual and auditory cues that are difficult to replicate in a role playing game. There are times when a player becomes frustrated because the GM didn't think of clues that should logically be available given the circumstances.
Has anyone ever had an experience with a graphical adventure game in which you couldn't figure out which obscure object was required to be used on which obscure pixel complete a specific task?
Yeah, this is why I avoid these types of adventure games now.
Sometimes, clues have to be so obvious as to be cliche in order to acually give the players a chance to puzzle them out in a reasonable span of time. Of course, even Sherlock Holmes misinterperated the evidence one in a while. Beating them over the head with it may not be enough at times, unless the GM and the players have very similar thought processes.
That is the trick there. The players have to think the same way that the GM thought and they must have the same experiences that the GM had to draw from. A subtle word pun may work perfectly on a native speaker but be completely lost on someone who is just learning the language, for example. Without shared experiences and shared logic a clue meant to point in one direction can easily point to another.
Incomplete pictures of the world don't help much either. Some puzzles rely on visual and auditory cues that are difficult to replicate in a role playing game. There are times when a player becomes frustrated because the GM didn't think of clues that should logically be available given the circumstances.
That said, there's no reason not to drop clues which may help them predict the future, but which will become clear as the adventure progresses. This way they CAN follow up on clues, but don't have to, and either way eventually they'll say 'oh... Well that makes sense.'
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Has anyone ever had an experience with a text adventure game in which you couldn't figure out which obscure command was required to be used on which obscure object complete a specific task? Has anyone ever had an experience with a graphical adventure game in which you couldn't figure out which obscure object was required to be used on which obscure pixel complete a specific task? Yeah, this is why I avoid these types of adventure games now. Sometimes, clues have to be so obvious as to be cliche in order to acually give the players a chance to puzzle them out in a reasonable span of time. Of course, even Sherlock Holmes misinterperated the evidence one in a while. Beating them over the head with it may not be enough at times, unless the GM and the players have very similar thought processes. That is the trick there. The players have to think the same way that the GM thought and they must have the same experiences that the GM had to draw from. A subtle word pun may work perfectly on a native speaker but be completely lost on someone who is just learning the language, for example. Without shared experiences and shared logic a clue meant to point in one direction can easily point to another. Incomplete pictures of the world don't help much either. Some puzzles rely on visual and auditory cues that are difficult to replicate in a role playing game. There are times when a player becomes frustrated because the GM didn't think of clues that should logically be available given the circumstances. |
Yes, this is exactly correct. Exactly exactly correct!
That's exactly the problem. I have never had "subtle" clues work because obviously the players' brains work in a different way than mine. They really have to be cliches for people to get them in a reasonable amount of time.
The truth of the matter is that even when I play video games I'm clueless when it comes to clues. The first time I played through Planescape: Torment I just stumbled through never fully understanding what was going on overall. It was only the second and third times that I played through that I finally understood the whole story and saw what the planted clues (such as Deionarra's prophecy were referring to.)
As a continuing testament to my inability to pick up on any sorts of clues or apply any sort of problem-solving behavior I still haven't beaten Fallout or Fallout 2. I've had the games for years and must have started over in those games like a dozen times with different types of characters. However, the same thing always happens to me. I get about halfway through the game and then I have no freaking clue what I'm supposed to do. I don't even know what's supposedly going on in the plot. Man, the first time I tried to play through Fallout I ended up stumbling into the Cathedral and, through numerous save/reloads, killing all the Nightkin guards and killing the cult leader with only leather armor and the 5.56 pistol. (Which meant that anytime one of the Nightkin failed to miss me it was time to reload.) I banged my head against the wall to squeak my way past that part of the game which I stumbled upon having missed any and all clues actually pointing there and I wasn't even sure why my character had to do what he was doing at that point. In the end I never was able to finish the game because in spite of my meticulous combat tactics (shooting at the max range for the 5.56 pistol to the eyes to make the mutants mostly miss me) I just didn't have the juice to clean out the lower levels. That was really frustrating. The truth is that if I didn't go and look up walkthroughs on the game later I would have had no idea what was going on at all in that game re the main storyline.
Thing is, I'm not a blazing retard, or anything. Back in 3rd grade they gave me an IQ test and I scored 138. Later on, when I took the SATs as a high school senior, I got 800 verbal 710 math on my first try. I really liked the analogies section. So, clearly, my mind does have the ability to draw certain parallels and process abstract information.
But when it comes to clues in any sort of role playing context? No dice, apparently. And just from my experience, whenever I lay clues as a GM, no dice for anyone else either.
Kyoto Kid shared with us her experiences with "good" clue-setting that worked out, but personally I have *never* experienced anything comparable.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 10 2006, 12:32 PM) |
| Maybe I''m in the minority here, but I find intrigue goes a lot farther than simply holding down the trigger until the ammo runs out. |
| QUOTE |
"GET THAT LEAD OUT, MARINES! |
-the Sergant from Halo
I personally wish that the rates of fire in SR were higher; at 10 rounds per complex action I'm just unable most of the time to have to make tactical reloads especially since a lot of the assault rifle have mondo magazines that hold over 30 rounds.
That's why I like Raygun's rates of fire.
Hell, man, the writers of CC should have just gone all out and given us the Aliens 2 Pulse Rifle. 100 rounds of "10mm explosive" ammo in one suspiciously small magazine. (I guess it's actually a SMG and it holds pistol ammo, which explains the small magazine and relatively poor penetration vs. xenomorph caprice.) And we're never allowed to carry reloads for some reason.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and even though it's "caseless" we see casings flying out of the "pulse rifle" in some scenes.
Ive had 2 female players that have done an excellent job of playing male and female characters alike (though one of their characters immediately jumped on her husbands character once the game started..bah)
The others ive had (a good half dozen) have been horrendous but then they have been girlfriends/friends who havent role played or have very limited role playing experience.
On a semi related note: Ever dealt with a GM who will bend over backwards just for female characters? Ones that the moment a female is introduced into the mix its like "ZOMG BOOBIE!!!111!!"?
One of my GMs no matter how many different ways we (the players) have shown our utter disdain for one of these horrible female players and her characters she is always inexplicably saved from the most certain of doom. Tried to steal from the Frenzied Berzerker (D&D) who promptly tries to take her head, so he goes a swinging rolling a critical and 3 other attacks with attack rolls well over 25. But then some how he misses all his strikes at the mage with a AC of 17....who then proceeds to take what magic items she wants from the pile. Her choices? +3 leather armor of shadow and bracers that give a strength of 25, why the mage needs these things, i shall never know.
But because of the afformentioned Boobies the GM spends the rest of the game in /tell with that player assuring her that her character is great and that shes an integral part of the group (integral to being a loot whore!).
Oh and another signifier of a Mary Sue. Any character that in the physical description also includes charisma, physical beuty, or whatever the stat is for your game (im so crap i cant even describe how sexy my character is).
The others ive had (a good half dozen) have been horrendous but then they have been girlfriends/friends who havent role played or have very limited role playing experience.
On a semi related note: Ever dealt with a GM who will bend over backwards just for female characters? Ones that the moment a female is introduced into the mix its like "ZOMG BOOBIE!!!111!!"?
One of my GMs no matter how many different ways we (the players) have shown our utter disdain for one of these horrible female players and her characters she is always inexplicably saved from the most certain of doom. Tried to steal from the Frenzied Berzerker (D&D) who promptly tries to take her head, so he goes a swinging rolling a critical and 3 other attacks with attack rolls well over 25. But then some how he misses all his strikes at the mage with a AC of 17....who then proceeds to take what magic items she wants from the pile. Her choices? +3 leather armor of shadow and bracers that give a strength of 25, why the mage needs these things, i shall never know.
But because of the afformentioned Boobies the GM spends the rest of the game in /tell with that player assuring her that her character is great and that shes an integral part of the group (integral to being a loot whore!).
Oh and another signifier of a Mary Sue. Any character that in the physical description also includes charisma, physical beuty, or whatever the stat is for your game (im so crap i cant even describe how sexy my character is).
In the last session I just ran. female PCs outnumbered male PCs. Was a very interesting evening & the characters were handled pretty well for the most part.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Sometimes, clues have to be so obvious as to be cliche in order to acually give the players a chance to puzzle them out in a reasonable span of time. |
if the players themselves don't look like they'll be able to figure things out, it's easy enough to turn it into a mechanical challenge. have them find out that there might be information of interest on server X, and turn the decker loose; or let them find out that scumbag Y knows the answer, and have the team track him down and interrogate him. as long as you make sure you've got multiple methods of getting the information to the players, it should be okay.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| In the last session I just ran. female PCs outnumbered male PCs. Was a very interesting evening & the characters were handled pretty well for the most part. |
I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall in order to compare it to my own experiences with sausagefest IRC gaming.
I like throwing around clues. Though my players donīt get them most of the time, itīs ever so exciting and fun, if they do. If they eventually donīt get them, I just let them suffer (or more acuratly, deny them the advantage, that the decrypted clue would have given them) and take another lane.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
if the players themselves don't look like they'll be able to figure things out, it's easy enough to turn it into a mechanical challenge. have them find out that there might be information of interest on server X, and turn the decker loose; or let them find out that scumbag Y knows the answer, and have the team track him down and interrogate him. as long as you make sure you've got multiple methods of getting the information to the players, it should be okay. |
That's pretty much how I set things up. Different paths have different clues depending on what aspect of legwork the PC's take.
| QUOTE (MK Ultra) |
| I like throwing around clues. Though my players donīt get them most of the time, itīs ever so exciting and fun, if they do. If they eventually donīt get them, I just let them suffer (or more acuratly, deny them the advantage, that the decrypted clue would have given them) and take another lane. |
Again, this is how things work in my campaigns. There are still ways to get to the objective of the mission without figuring out the clues but the road then becomes much more difficult. Kind of like being is a foreign city without a roadmap and understanding of the language. Eventually you will get to where you want to go, but you are sure to make some missteps along the way.
Man, that's funny. I seriously would *try* to set things up exactly like you two are describing. But then inevitably the players would simply miss each and every clue until my campaigns just evolved into giving everything away and spelling out all the conclusions in text.
no, what i mean is, if the players themselves can't figure it out, make them hack a system or break somebody's legs, and then tell them the answer.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| no, what i mean is, if the players themselves can't figure it out, make them hack a system or break somebody's legs, and then tell them the answer. |
Precisely...
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| no, what i mean is, if the players themselves can't figure it out, make them hack a system or break somebody's legs, and then tell them the answer. |
At that point why even bother laying the clues? It's more fun and challenging to burn through PC resources in order to capture someone and smack him down than it is to sit around for 20 minutes, have an epiphany, and skip to the end of the campaign. I mean, if we consider that part of the fun of the game is playing it, rather than just "beating" the game prematurely.
Or, look at it another way. We could speculate about the clues or possibly be wrong, or we could just cut to the chase, break the guy's legs, and get the "right" answer.
Besides, I wanna help my Fixer move his "regular" ammo. Maybe if I buy enough bullets from him he'll become a level 2 contact.
you lay the clues because many players enjoy figuring things out; a campaign where they solved a mystery through roleplaying and thought is often as or more memorable than a campaign where they simply slogged through lots of enemies. if the players don't pick up on the clues, you give them a safety net so that the campaign doesn't bog down and become overly frustrating. the Matrix run or legbreaking is in addition to the rest of the run--they can avoid that part, if they think their way through successfully.
and if you're breaking your fixer's legs, you may be barking up the wrong tree anyway (or not, depending on the campaign).
and if you're breaking your fixer's legs, you may be barking up the wrong tree anyway (or not, depending on the campaign).
as far as clues, I've had some serious problems with htis before, usually when it's just a very minor detail. The worst was a Darksun campaign, they had to wake up a sorcerer-kings daughter who was in a temporal stasis spell (Maruaders of Nibenay pre-made game). All they had to do was say her name. Three hours. just sitting there. Pissed Off.
Had a similar problem in an SR game with a spectre that wouldn't die becuase they never broke the chain. TOld them it had a chain. Told them it would regen until the chain was destroyed. Had NPC's give hints to what the chain might be (they didn't know, but I was trying to help) . One player had the freaking chain in her pocket. It was a tooth that they picked up when they first came in to the place. I wanted to just have them kill it and move on. Ugh.
As far as male/female players, we have two female players, and 6 male players full time. Will be adding another female soon. We've had afew more girls come and go. I've never seen any real difference between the male and female players in the sense that one was "play my way" or conformed to any sort of stereotype. They have different characters, and they play those personalities. We've had females play lesbians, straight, tramps, practical saints, indifferent, interested but careful, pretty much every type. We've had very feminine, high charisma, extremely low charisma, smooth talkers, combat psychos, a voodoun that likes to cast agony, covert ops, gunbunnies. maybe we've just been lucky and had good players, but it's just been a non-issue with our group.
Had a similar problem in an SR game with a spectre that wouldn't die becuase they never broke the chain. TOld them it had a chain. Told them it would regen until the chain was destroyed. Had NPC's give hints to what the chain might be (they didn't know, but I was trying to help) . One player had the freaking chain in her pocket. It was a tooth that they picked up when they first came in to the place. I wanted to just have them kill it and move on. Ugh.
As far as male/female players, we have two female players, and 6 male players full time. Will be adding another female soon. We've had afew more girls come and go. I've never seen any real difference between the male and female players in the sense that one was "play my way" or conformed to any sort of stereotype. They have different characters, and they play those personalities. We've had females play lesbians, straight, tramps, practical saints, indifferent, interested but careful, pretty much every type. We've had very feminine, high charisma, extremely low charisma, smooth talkers, combat psychos, a voodoun that likes to cast agony, covert ops, gunbunnies. maybe we've just been lucky and had good players, but it's just been a non-issue with our group.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| and if you're breaking your fixer's legs, you may be barking up the wrong tree anyway (or not, depending on the campaign). |
What if it's someone else's fixer?
you ought to be breaking their legs anyw--uh, i mean, show them professional courtesy.
Hey, look at it this way. If there's any ammunition in your character's possession when he or she dies and or retires that's Resources wasted that you could have use to get more skills or pump more attributes. Use it or lose it because you can't take it with you to the big GM in the sky. 
Like the Prisoner's Dilemma, that depends on whether you're playing a single character or iterated characters. If iterated, if the rest of the team can retrieve your dead character's stuff, it may be better for you to leave more of it behind so your next character can use it.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Like the Prisoner's Dilemma, that depends on whether you're playing a single character or iterated characters. If iterated, if the rest of the team can retrieve your dead character's stuff, it may be better for you to leave more of it behind so your next character can use it. ~J |
Did you ever play Wizardry? It was an old dungeon crawl game coded in Pascal that I remember playing on my old Apple II C when I was a little kid. The point of the game was to make a party and do a dungeon crawl. Trouble was that it was very hard to navigate because of the nature of the medium and as a little kid I didn't want my party to get lost. I literally played that game for like a year with my party never leaving the first level of the dungeon. I never even fully explored the first level of the dungeon but rather just stuck to the parts of it that I knew. It had gotten to the point where I was promoting my party into advanced classes, like Priest to Bishop, but all that EXP was being eeked out from killing kobolds, like, a thousand times.
Anyway, that strategy tended to leave my short of cash since the monsters never dropped that much money. But I developed a way to generate unlimited funds. I'd simply create a new character who would start with around 150 GP, transfer that gold to my established party, and then delete the new character. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
What you're proposing sounds a lot like that. Make a character with Resources A and spent a million nuyen on bullets and a truck to hold them in. Have the character die in the first encounter, and then roll up a new one. Hey, what's this? Free ammunition for eternity! Great, I can make a super ubermensch by taking 0 nuyen at chargen!
| QUOTE (Vegas) | ||
BAD MFB!! VERY BAD! *shudders* Ahh.. the good ol' days |
makes me think the next line should be
"OH GOD YES! PLUNGE YOUR SWORDFISH INTO MY MUSTARDBALL"
Oh dear god, why does it taste like mustard? And why is there a *ball*!?!?
The truth is even more mindboggling that a simple swordfish mustardball.
Hey, who raised this bloody thread from the dead. It was mouldering nicely and someone had to come along and perform a little thread necromancy
"Beware the Swordfish Mustardball, my son. For it is EVIL.....*not* the fun-kind of evil that gets you girls. Oh no. Spawned from the blackest pits of the Underworld---"
"You mean the movie, dad?"
"No, my son. The other one."
"The nightclub downtown? I like that place."
"No, my son. The *other* Underworld. The bad place."
"The boiler room at my dorm? It does make this weird smell sometimes....and Charlie in 14B says, on a moonless night, when the whole building's asleep, you can hear it groaning like a five-nuyen hooker..."
"<Sigh>."
"You mean the movie, dad?"
"No, my son. The other one."
"The nightclub downtown? I like that place."
"No, my son. The *other* Underworld. The bad place."
"The boiler room at my dorm? It does make this weird smell sometimes....and Charlie in 14B says, on a moonless night, when the whole building's asleep, you can hear it groaning like a five-nuyen hooker..."
"<Sigh>."
5 nuyen hooker
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| 5 nuyen hooker |
Aren't they called joygirls now?
Why would a 5-nuyen hooker bother? I mean, it's not like you're paying for quality, let alone the pretense of some non-transactional relationship.
if she's only charging 5 nuyen she is either
A: not doing it for the money
B: in Elementary school
c: both
A: not doing it for the money
B: in Elementary school
c: both
D: Horribly Disfigured
E: Diseased
F: Slightly Overweight
E: Diseased
F: Slightly Overweight
G: Under the influence of an illicit substance
H: Possessed of the Incompetent (Economics) flaw
And this post makes 9 in a row on the topic of 5 
hookers. Thread derailment complete...
hookers. Thread derailment complete...
I never read the thread, so it was ineivitable that a post I make be in the direction of derailment. 
I'm sorry about continuein gthe derailment but B is most certainly incorrect. Hookers in elementry school can make a hell of alot a than 5 per trick and with ubiquitious matrix acess from any and every telecom they most certainly know it.
per trick and with ubiquitious matrix acess from any and every telecom they most certainly know it.
hyz probably true but to them 5 is still a fair bit of money
also I: All of A-H inclusive
is still a fair bit of moneyalso I: All of A-H inclusive
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Kyoto Kid shared with us her experiences with "good" clue-setting that worked out, but personally I have *never* experienced anything comparable. |
Since this thread has been given CPR, and in light of the "Are you a Dude?" poll (which I did my utmost to avoid responding to) time to have a big bubble go
POP!
Guess I win all the karma for roleplaying the girl on this thread
(BTW: Wounded Ronin, Thanks for the compliment)
(Tee Hee Hee...)
It's been real...
It's been surreal...
it's been Salvadore Dali and...
it's been a Sir Guy Grand kind of fun time.
...if you want it here it is come and get it but you better hurry cause it's going fast
Getting it ready for you now..., not quite ready yet
....every man has got his Price...
Fat naked man with grey hair?
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Fat naked man with grey hair? |
Nope on all accounts ('cept maybe the hair, noticed a few strands the other day)
Just a writer who likes to push the envelope as far as possible.
I've actually been working on developing a better handle on female characterisation for some time now using RPGs. Partly, because not many women are involved in gaming (especially in my neck of the woods), but mostly, for the challenge (and enjoyment) of playing characters with a different perspective than that of the average WAM.
BTW, I'm also not one of those "plants" the PD uses to lure online predators. Just a writer with an insatiable curiosity.
There is no animal that kills and devours its prey online.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| BTW, I'm also not one of those "plants" the PD uses to lure online predators. Just a writer with an insatiable curiosity. |
I am
no, not really, I am really a naieve 13 year old girl who doesn't know the ways of love, but wishes to learn at the hands of the right man
God, I can't keep up a lie like that
and the copers need to create better lies when they pretendto be kids
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 17 2006, 10:46 AM) |
| There is no animal that kills and devours its prey online. |
One can always dream, though.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| I've actually been working on developing a better handle on female characterisation for some time now using RPGs. Partly, because not many women are involved in gaming (especially in my neck of the woods), but mostly, for the challenge (and enjoyment) of playing characters with a different perspective than that of the average WAM. |
About here I'd usually plug Shadowland since right now there's a 2:1 ration of men to women, which is pretty damn good, and because we all love charazcterization, but then I'd have to put up with yet another man who has a female PC and for that, I'd have to probably kill you (I nearly killed the other's PC, but for that damnable Treat spell).
...and the fallout continues
Though SL is a pretty cool site, I prefer to stay on the OOC boards.
I prefer to limit my IC experiences to our local group's weekend sessions.
Though SL is a pretty cool site, I prefer to stay on the OOC boards.
I prefer to limit my IC experiences to our local group's weekend sessions.
*watches, with a bemused look on his face, the thread gallop away from any semblance of control....*
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