I picked up on something that was clarified in the lastest errata (v 1.3) and I wanted to make sure everyone else was aware of it as well.
In SR4 there is (now) a clear distinction between a modification to a skill rating and a bonus to a skill rating. The errata re-wrote 2 very key paragraphs on pg. 63 and pg. 109 that talk about the difference. The most important point is that an implant, power, or ability that modifies a skill rating has a limit: the modified skill rating cannot exceed the BASE rating by more than 1.5, rounded DOWN.
That means that for your Gunslinger Adept to have a modified Pistols skill of 9, he/she must have a the base skill at 6. This distinction also makes other ablities, like Kinestics, way more powerful as they provide bonus dice and thus, can "improve" something an unlimited amount.
I just wanted to make sure everyone else saw what I saw.
Full Version: Skill Ratings: Modified vs. Bonus
I've seen it and I dont like it. Especially the part where they say that you add the rating (reflexrecorder . . .) when advancing your skills.
I havn't seen a lot of skill rating modifiers. Is there anything besides Reflex Recorders (which I find ok to hinder learning, actually; makes sense, that those artificial reflexes can get in the way and thus make things a bit more difficult)?
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
The Adept Power of course.
- deleted, because it was false -
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
Ah, yes this means that Mr. Scary, the not-fully optimized starting social adept can only roll 23 dice when telling you that you "REALLY WANT TO GIVE HIM ALL OF YOUR MONEY" (Cha 7 (elf) + Con 6 + specialization (2) + improved ability (3) + Kinestics (5)) 
| QUOTE (Thanee @ Feb 23 2006, 05:26 AM) |
| But those work differently. The Improved Ability dice can be no higher than the Base Skill Rating (but are not limited to 50% of that Rating, like the so called modifications). They specifically do not change the Skill Rating even. |
They increase the skill level, you cant go higher than 9 (10 with special) with his.
Read errata 1.3 for more info.
Ahh... Improved Ability has been errata'ed as well. My bad. 
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| Ahh... Improved Ability has been errata'ed as well. My bad. Bye Thanee |
The errata was mostly just removing the part that was confusing, the extra limit that never came into effect.
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| In SR4 there is (now) a clear distinction between a modification to a skill rating and a bonus to a skill rating. |
For the record there is actually no such thing as a "bonus to skill rating" in SR4. There are modified skills and bonus/dice pool modifiers. The former are capped, the latter aren't.
Crusher Bob is right about how ugly it can get with the adept power of kinesics, which is only limited by the Magic Attribute, and which can also stack with improved ability in social skills. In a campaign where the GM doesn't sharply delineate what can, and can not, be done with social skills... the social adept is the ultimate munchkin.
Does this rule also apply to attributes? Ie. If an attribute is at rating 4, is the modified maximum a rating 6?
AFAIK, stats are only limited to the augmented max (Max x 1.5) so it's possible to have a natural reaction of one and use reaction enchancers, etc to get your reaction all the way up to 9. This works best for reaction, as there is plenty of stuff out there that will modify it.
A proposed house rule that makes more sense is to make the augmented max of a stat the current stat +3. It removes some rounding issued and means that you can't have the reaction 1 (9) guy anymore.
A proposed house rule that makes more sense is to make the augmented max of a stat the current stat +3. It removes some rounding issued and means that you can't have the reaction 1 (9) guy anymore.
| QUOTE (The Horror) |
| Does this rule also apply to attributes? Ie. If an attribute is at rating 4, is the modified maximum a rating 6? |
No. Attributes aren't subject to this.
Only skills have the (base stat *1.5) limitation.
Would the Synthacardium be counted as bonus dice? I think so, but I'm not entirely sure.
i.e. could you have Athletics 1 and Synthacardium-3 for 4 dice + AGI/STR?
Bye
Thanee
i.e. could you have Athletics 1 and Synthacardium-3 for 4 dice + AGI/STR?
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee @ Feb 24 2006, 01:45 PM) |
| Would the Synthacardium be counted as bonus dice? I think so, but I'm not entirely sure. i.e. could you have Athletics 1 and Synthacardium-3 for 4 dice + AGI/STR? Bye Thanee |
It's pretty cleary labeled as "bonus" and "dice pool modifier". So it's not limited, it just adds up.
And yes, it would work as you describe.
I just thought of something I'm not clear about. Can you get Improved Ability for a skill that you have as part of a Skill Group? The rules seem clear that you can get Bonus Dice to a skill inside of a Group but I'm not sure about modifying a skill inside of a group.
If you can, what improvement cost would you pay?
If you can, what improvement cost would you pay?
why shouldnt you ?
After you applied improvements the groupd is considered split up.
After you applied improvements the groupd is considered split up.
| QUOTE (Serbitar @ Feb 22 2006, 07:33 PM) |
| I've seen it and I dont like it. Especially the part where they say that you add the rating (reflexrecorder . . .) when advancing your skills. |
Think of it as raising your skill with money instead of karma.
If I have a natural 5 in Unarmed and I'm really looking forward to getting a 6, then I have two routes. I can either spend 12 karma, or 10k nuyen and .1 Essence.
Obviously it's not going to be as good of a tradeoff if you have a natural 2 in the skill and had a choice between 6 karma or 10k nuyen + .1 Essence.
In some cases (depending on your available resources and long-term goals), that'll be more desirable. In some, not. In any case it's good to have options to choose from.
What it does do in the case of "long-view" adepts is make them seriously think about raising their skill up to a 6 (or 7 with Aptitude) and only then start getting levels in Improved Ability. The end result can be the same as if they started with Improved Ability, but the karma costs will be noticeably different.
That might seem inequitable (read: unfair), but it's a matter of if you want immediate performance gains or if you're okay with a slower but more efficient advancement.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| Ah, yes this means that Mr. Scary, the not-fully optimized starting social adept can only roll 23 dice when telling you that you "REALLY WANT TO GIVE HIM ALL OF YOUR MONEY" (Cha 7 (elf) + Con 6 + specialization (2) + improved ability (3) + Kinestics (5)) |
Specialize in seduction and you have a gigolo adept. Oh, and put him on his Home Ground for 2 more dice.
"I have a license for that assault rifle, officer. And to prove it to you I will sex you up!"
Allright that's twenty-five dice, twenty-five, do I hear twenty-six, anybody build twenty-six? Twenty-six dice for a social task from a starting character, I've got twenty-five, from the home-ground-gigolo, going once....going twice......
| QUOTE (Frackula @ Feb 24 2006, 12:54 PM) |
| Specialize in seduction and you have a gigolo adept. Oh, and put him on his Home Ground for 2 more dice. "I have a license for that assault rifle, officer. And to prove it to you I will sex you up!" |
So, uh, exactly where is his Home Ground? Or is that something that I shouldn't ask?
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 24 2006, 01:57 PM) |
| Allright that's twenty-five dice, twenty-five, do I hear twenty-six, anybody build twenty-six? Twenty-six dice for a social task from a starting character, I've got twenty-five, from the home-ground-gigolo, going once....going twice...... |
Exceptional Attribute: Charisma. Go ahead and buy up the 9 Cha in chargen as your one capped attribute.
If there were room for both Aptitude: Con and Home Ground, I'd get 'em both, but HG is the better buy for our purposes.
Oh, and go ahead and get Magic capped so you can burn a point of it for pheromones.
| QUOTE (Brahm) | ||
So, uh, exactly where is his Home Ground? Or is that something that I shouldn't ask? |
Whatever it is, it involves lots of red lights and loud noises.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 24 2006, 12:57 PM) |
| Allright that's twenty-five dice, twenty-five, do I hear twenty-six, anybody build twenty-six? Twenty-six dice for a social task from a starting character, I've got twenty-five, from the home-ground-gigolo, going once....going twice...... |
Con (seduction +2): 6 (Improved Con +2) (+2 Trickster Mentor Spirit)(+2 Home Ground)(+2 First Impression)(+1 kinesics)(8 cha, 5 + 3 pheromones) = 25 dice, 27 if burning minimum starting Edge
And Mr. Gigolo is a Mystic Adept with a Spellcasting ability of 5 (also Magic 5, Ess 5.2). He has Control Emotions, so that's a maximum of -5 dice to an opposing social test!
Oh, and he wears Trid Phantasm clothing with nothing underneath.
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Feb 24 2006, 06:43 PM) |
| That might seem inequitable (read: unfair), but it's a matter of if you want immediate performance gains or if you're okay with a slower but more efficient advancement. |
somhow that sounds familiar...
oh and the gigolo adept makes me want to go
all at ones...
I've got a kinesics 5 adept in the game I'm running (he blew his 6th point of magic on Synaptic Accelerator 2). What I've come to discover is that while he *is* at a distinct advantage trying to talk relatively friendly people into things, those modifiers (such as "NPC suspicious of PC" and "Action potentially damaging/dangerous to NPC") on the social interactions table can really quickly take a chunk out of that huge dice pool. Basically, he still stands a chance of talking his way past someone who's on the lookout (as opposed to Joe Shadowrunner, who would probably get stopped).
Of course, when the Shivers are yelling at you to "Put your fraggin' hands against the wall!" they're not really listening to you in the kind of way that lets you easily make a Social test.
And the penalties you incur on a test if, say, Mr Lone Star spotted blood on the backseat of your car are pretty severe, too.
Of course, when the Shivers are yelling at you to "Put your fraggin' hands against the wall!" they're not really listening to you in the kind of way that lets you easily make a Social test.
And the penalties you incur on a test if, say, Mr Lone Star spotted blood on the backseat of your car are pretty severe, too.
| QUOTE (Frackula) |
| Oh, and he wears Trid Phantasm clothing with nothing underneath. |
Him too?
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| Of course, when the Shivers are yelling at you to "Put your fraggin' hands against the wall!" they're not really listening to you in the kind of way that lets you easily make a Social test. And the penalties you incur on a test if, say, Mr Lone Star spotted blood on the backseat of your car are pretty severe, too. |
You too? Yes, guards with their weapons drawn seem to close their minds to the intellectual give and take of reasoned discusion.
"Shouldn't I get to make a Negotiation Opposed test here, or something?"
"The Shiver really isn't interested in participating in a Negotiation test with you. He might be more interested in talking to the back of your head once you're on the concrete in cuffs."
"The Shiver really isn't interested in participating in a Negotiation test with you. He might be more interested in talking to the back of your head once you're on the concrete in cuffs."
| QUOTE (mdynna) |
| I just thought of something I'm not clear about. Can you get Improved Ability for a skill that you have as part of a Skill Group? The rules seem clear that you can get Bonus Dice to a skill inside of a Group but I'm not sure about modifying a skill inside of a group. If you can, what improvement cost would you pay? |
The gunslinger adept sample character does exactly that, so it's obviously possible. Post-errata, though, it makes improving a skill group with one or more modified ratings into a logistical nightmare. I have no idea how you would calculate the cost of raising such a skill group.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Allright that's twenty-five dice, twenty-five, do I hear twenty-six, anybody build twenty-six? Twenty-six dice for a social task from a starting character, I've got twenty-five, from the home-ground-gigolo, going once....going twice...... |
Elf with 7 Charisma (since only one stat can be maxed out, and it will be Magic for this build) and 6 Magic (but reduced to 5 from bioware). Qualities: Adept, Aptitude/Con, First Impression, Home Ground, and Mentor Spirit (Seductress). Get Con at 7 and specialize in Seduction. For adept powers, get Kinesics: 5 and Improved Ability/Con: 3. For bioware, get Tailored Pheromes: 3.
That's 7 (Charisma) + 7 (Con) + 2 (specialization) +2 (Home Ground) +2 (First Impression) +2 (Mentor Spirit bonus) +5 (Kinesics) + 3 (Improved Ability) +3 (Tailored Pheromes) = 33 dice.
| QUOTE (Glyph) | ||
Elf with 7 Charisma (since only one stat can be maxed out, and it will be Magic for this build) and 6 Magic (but reduced to 5 from bioware). Qualities: Adept, Aptitude/Con, First Impression, Home Ground, and Mentor Spirit (Seductress). Get Con at 7 and specialize in Seduction. For adept powers, get Kinesics: 5 and Improved Ability/Con: 3. For bioware, get Tailored Pheromes: 3. That's 7 (Charisma) + 7 (Con) + 2 (specialization) +2 (Home Ground) +2 (First Impression) +2 (Mentor Spirit bonus) +5 (Kinesics) + 3 (Improved Ability) +3 (Tailored Pheromes) = 33 dice. |
Congratulations sir, you've gone beyond Gigolo, and have invented the Pornomancer Adept.
GM: Three guards at the door. They want to see your SIN.
ADEPT: Are they women?
GM: No.
ADEPT: Are they gay?
GM: No.
ADEPT: I'm going to seduce them anyway. *rolls 28 successes* They're gay for me now! I release my godlike tower of man-meat, and it is pleased.
GM: Stop! Stop!
ADEPT: I say to the guards: "Behold my enormous SIN!"
GM: Every police station in town saw your SIN. Lone Star surrounds you. They're about to arrest you for violating every public nudity law ever made.
ADEPT: No problem. I seduce them too.
hmm, shivers? when did we go from shadowrun to SLA industries?
Reathanol flashback.
Hey, Shivers were/are the shit.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Elf with 7 Charisma (since only one stat can be maxed out, and it will be Magic for this build) and 6 Magic (but reduced to 5 from bioware). Qualities: Adept, Aptitude/Con, First Impression, Home Ground, and Mentor Spirit (Seductress). Get Con at 7 and specialize in Seduction. For adept powers, get Kinesics: 5 and Improved Ability/Con: 3. For bioware, get Tailored Pheromes: 3. That's 7 (Charisma) + 7 (Con) + 2 (specialization) +2 (Home Ground) +2 (First Impression) +2 (Mentor Spirit bonus) +5 (Kinesics) + 3 (Improved Ability) +3 (Tailored Pheromes) = 33 dice. |
It's true that you can max only one stat, but this is specifically mentioned under "Physical/Mental Attributes" (P. 73), and since magic is a special attribute I don't think it counts. Just like the 200 BP max for Physical/Mental Attributes.
So you could potentially build a Charisma 8 elf, and end up with 34 dice. It's a shame about the Exceptional Attribute costing 20 BP, otherwise that would be one extra die hidden here
Lars
It's kind of an ambiguously worded rule, but you could interpret it as applying only to the Physical/Mental Attributes.
Meh, I dunno if I'd do it, anyways. 33 dice is nice, but 34 dice is kind of edging into munchkin territory, ya know?
Meh, I dunno if I'd do it, anyways. 33 dice is nice, but 34 dice is kind of edging into munchkin territory, ya know?
:love:kinesics 3 with control thoughts at spell casting three and don't forget that sultry voice using voice control
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| It's kind of an ambiguously worded rule, but you could interpret it as applying only to the Physical/Mental Attributes. Meh, I dunno if I'd do it, anyways. 33 dice is nice, but 34 dice is kind of edging into munchkin territory, ya know? |
i just orderd myself a copy of SR4 and a box of 36 D6, i pray that i never have to use them all in one go...
In regard to the Gunslinger Adept that we being discussed: I have one in my group. The character is straight out of the book, however, he recently spent karma on specializing with a type of pistol so his skill is Firearms : 4 -> Pistols : 6 -> SPecialized Pistol :8. Does his +4 dice fall under this errata rule?
| QUOTE (ryanstone) |
| In regard to the Gunslinger Adept that we being discussed: I have one in my group. The character is straight out of the book, however, he recently spent karma on specializing with a type of pistol so his skill is Firearms : 4 -> Pistols : 6 -> SPecialized Pistol :8. Does his +4 dice fall under this errata rule? |
Partly.
The Improved Ability dice fall under it, the dice from specialisation to the particular Pistol don't.
IIRC he just broke his skill group by specializing (someone correct my if i'm wrong, i don't have my book with me at the moment).
So his Pistol base Skill is 4, with this he can have an improved ability up to (1.5 * 4 =)6. Which he has, by having a IA:Pistols of +2.
The specialisation doesn't count against the maximum, so it's valid.
I've been toying with a suprisingly useful house rule in my campaign, along these particular lines. Makes the dice bonus vs rating modification a bit easier to me and my players. I'll just toss it out here. My players rarely have an issue with rule laywering, so there might be a n issue I've missed. Go ahead and give me the pros and cons of it, but be gentle please? 
(Lets see if I get flamed or something
)
(Lets see if I get flamed or something
)| QUOTE |
| -The maximum bonus dice added to a via any skill, attribute, equipment, or circumstance modification (including specializations) may not exceed the total of the base attribute rating plus the base skill rating. This removes various confusing terms and just makes bookkeeping easier, while keeping a limit in place. -In keeping with the above rule, skill rating modification limits are removed but still “enforced” virtually with the above rule (“All skill, baby!”). Attribute modification rating limits are, however, still enforced. |
I'm not sure if I've explained the first house rule well enough, so it might help if you post your interpetations of how it reads.
(Yes, I'm back. How long? Who knows.
)
| QUOTE (Frackula) | ||||
Congratulations sir, you've gone beyond Gigolo, and have invented the Pornomancer Adept. GM: Three guards at the door. They want to see your SIN. ADEPT: Are they women? GM: No. ADEPT: Are they gay? GM: No. ADEPT: I'm going to seduce them anyway. *rolls 28 successes* They're gay for me now! I release my godlike tower of man-meat, and it is pleased. GM: Stop! Stop! ADEPT: I say to the guards: "Behold my enormous SIN!" GM: Every police station in town saw your SIN. Lone Star surrounds you. They're about to arrest you for violating every public nudity law ever made. ADEPT: No problem. I seduce them too. |
Just a thought, if you add edge before you roll, the rule of 6 applies to all them dice.
You could pull a Jasmine on the planet by setting up a camcorder in your (home ground) love pad and broadcasting "the lovercall" to the planetary population....
"Easy Lofwyr, baby, you can take a ticket like everybody else..."
| QUOTE (Darkness) | ||
Partly. The Improved Ability dice fall under it, the dice from specialisation to the particular Pistol don't. IIRC he just broke his skill group by specializing (someone correct my if i'm wrong, i don't have my book with me at the moment). So his Pistol base Skill is 4, with this he can have an improved ability up to (1.5 * 4 =)6. Which he has, by having a IA:Pistols of +2. The specialisation doesn't count against the maximum, so it's valid. |
I believe the Improved Combat Ability power breaks the Group as well. The specialization certainly does.
| QUOTE (Ankle Biter) | ||||||
Just a thought, if you add edge before you roll, the rule of 6 applies to all them dice. You could pull a Jasmine on the planet by setting up a camcorder in your (home ground) love pad and broadcasting "the lovercall" to the planetary population.... "Easy Lofwyr, baby, you can take a ticket like everybody else..." |
I just can't help but think of that Mango character from SNL after reading all this...
"Can you know the mighty ocean? Can you lasso a star from the sky? Can you say to a rainbow... 'Hey, stop being a rainbow for a second'? No! such is Mango!"
Social Adepts are insane but the one I put in last weeks run didn't fare too well.
Social skills don't work too well from the wrong end of an alley with people shooting at you. He booked to his car (Eurocar 3000), the shaman went astral after a failed ram with the team bulldog van. And with some minor haemorrhaging cast 2 force 8 power bolts at the rear wheel, blowing it off. Then his spirit used accident on it. One failed test later he's plowed through a building for 20P damage and turns into a greasy smear on his seat. His Troll buddy in the passenger seat survived on 9 damage after some edge use.
The Moral: All the social power in the world don't mean squat sometimes!
Social skills don't work too well from the wrong end of an alley with people shooting at you. He booked to his car (Eurocar 3000), the shaman went astral after a failed ram with the team bulldog van. And with some minor haemorrhaging cast 2 force 8 power bolts at the rear wheel, blowing it off. Then his spirit used accident on it. One failed test later he's plowed through a building for 20P damage
and turns into a greasy smear on his seat. His Troll buddy in the passenger seat survived on 9 damage after some edge use.The Moral: All the social power in the world don't mean squat sometimes!
| QUOTE |
| the shaman went astral after a failed ram with the team bulldog van. And with some minor haemorrhaging cast 2 force 8 power bolts at the rear wheel, blowing it off. |
and this was done from the astral?
That shouldn't work on a Westwind Eurocar. It would, however, work on a Ford Focus.
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