Hi all,
I noticed the Panther Cannon has a recoil comp of -1, but is only listed as a SS weapon so no additional shots are possible. Am I missing somrthing about how recoil is calculated across a Combat Turn or something else entirely?
My only other thought about this is does even a single-shot from a heavy weapon produce the "double-recoil penalty" and if so, that would explain the build-in recoil comp.
Thanks,
GTT
Full Version: Panther Cannon XXL
It's listed as having 1 RC because it has a rigid stock. I can't find anything in the rules suggesting it suffers from any recoil modifiers though. The text says it has "tremendous recoil", but really it has none. It would be silly if the weapon could be fired without a stock, so I guess that's a pretty good reason why it has one, but there should be a reason besides tradition why only trolls are seen carrying these on foot.
I do agree that the Panther could use some more detailed rules to reflect its recoil. Though I do currently employ a house rule called the "Don't even think about it, Bub" rule:
Elf Mage: "I grab the Panther cannon and fire it at the truck."
GM: "You miss."
Elf Mage: "I didn't even roll!"
GM: "You miss, and the kick from the cannon shatters your shoulder."
Elf Mage: "Hey!"
GM: "That's 4 boxes of Physical damage."
Elf Mage: "I grab the Panther cannon and fire it at the truck."
GM: "You miss."
Elf Mage: "I didn't even roll!"
GM: "You miss, and the kick from the cannon shatters your shoulder."
Elf Mage: "Hey!"
GM: "That's 4 boxes of Physical damage."
That's exactly the rule I've always used! What a wierd coincidence!!! 
*munchkin alert* Well the recoil comp could be used for dual weilding Panther Cannons. Since you could get a SS shot with each. And the second shot would have a -1 recoil for being the 2nd shot fired that round.
Dual-weilded weapon's recoil is tracked separately, then the uncompencated recoil of both weapons is added together and applied to both weapons. Dual weilded SS weapons would get no recoil. Dual weilded SA weapons would get -2 each on the second shot.
Ah I misunder stood the rules then, I thought it was additive in a different way.
well, you could tape two panther cannons together and pull the triggers separately, to get one-after-the-other quasi-semiautomatic results.
of course, i would think that this would be among the worst ideas anyone could ever come up with, but whatever.
of course, i would think that this would be among the worst ideas anyone could ever come up with, but whatever.
Unless I'm seriously mistaken-- which I might be-- recoil comp counteracts modifiers, not shots. Since the Panther has a -2 recoil penalty, the RC counteracts one of this, leaving you with a -1 penalty.
maybe i read this wrong, but iirc heavy weapons only double *uncompensated* recoil, not all recoil in general.
thus, if you fired an MMG for a 10-round burst and recoil comp took care of only 4 points of recoil, then you would take -10, not -14 on that burst.
however, that's just my understanding of the rule.
thus, if you fired an MMG for a 10-round burst and recoil comp took care of only 4 points of recoil, then you would take -10, not -14 on that burst.
however, that's just my understanding of the rule.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| maybe i read this wrong, but iirc heavy weapons only double *uncompensated* recoil, not all recoil in general. thus, if you fired an MMG for a 10-round burst and recoil comp took care of only 4 points of recoil, then you would take -10, not -14 on that burst. however, that's just my understanding of the rule. |
No, you're right. Page 142, it's pretty clear on it.
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| I do agree that the Panther could use some more detailed rules to reflect its recoil. Though I do currently employ a house rule called the "Don't even think about it, Bub" rule: Elf Mage: "I grab the Panther cannon and fire it at the truck." GM: "You miss." Elf Mage: "I didn't even roll!" GM: "You miss, and the kick from the cannon shatters your shoulder." Elf Mage: "Hey!" GM: "That's 4 boxes of Physical damage." |
...most definitelty a Troll Mounted Weapon indeed.
But, as explored earlier in the thread, canon recoil rules make the Assualt Cannon recoilless.
If you want contemporary information on an assault cannon, look up the Barrett XM109 Payload Rifle. It is more like a high-velocity grenade launcher than a true cannon, and can loft a 25mm shell out to 2000m.
I have an article where the reviewer shoots this weapon (prone, from a bipod) and describes the recoil as "stout, but not excessive or unpleasant." He implies that shooting a XM109 from the bipod felt like shooting a 12ga Magnum shotgun from the shoulder.
I have an article where the reviewer shoots this weapon (prone, from a bipod) and describes the recoil as "stout, but not excessive or unpleasant." He implies that shooting a XM109 from the bipod felt like shooting a 12ga Magnum shotgun from the shoulder.
My guess is that the recoil comp rules on the Panther are there for when someone modifies one to fire SA.
I'd just say thats the number that applies to any use of the cannon. Even the first shot. But thats just me. 
But that number isn't recoil. It's recoil compensation. Which is compensating for recoil that it never gets in the first place... (OW...my head...)
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| But that number isn't recoil. It's recoil compensation. Which is compensating for recoil that it never gets in the first place... (OW...my head...) |
Exactly what confused me. Guess they really want you do understand how hard it kicks.
Well, I remember that firing the Panther in 3 without a gyromount or without a Strength/Body of 8 ended up making you resist something, like, 8S stun.
It's for when you fire the Panther in one hand while blasting away with your Ingram Smartgun in the other.
| QUOTE (Dissonance) |
| Well, I remember that firing the Panther in 3 without a gyromount or without a Strength/Body of 8 ended up making you resist something, like, 8S stun. |
9L (Half Power, Light Stun for all Heavy Weapons). Of course, IIRC SR3 also makes you resist 3L stun if you fire an LMG in those conditions, yet I, STR/BOD 2 at best, managed not to be knocked unconscious in all those MG shoots, so take of that what you will.
Luck. Luck and Karma 
So that's what I spent all of my luck on. 
The SR4 firearms rules have very little to do with real firearms. Accept that, and you'll have less stress.
The Panther cannon is described as firing the same ammunition as the main gun in a small tank. That would make it something like the German Flak 36 88mm antiaircraft gun of WWII vintage that turned out to be a pretty nice antitank/antipersonnel gun, too - except that weapon had a crew of 7 and was towed behind a halftrack, so how the Panther has a crew of 1 is a mystery to me.
It's also a bizarre claim when the Panther's DV, which essentially represents soft tissue damage, is 10P, only 1 better than a Mossberg AM-CMDT. The main gun on a light tank is a 12 guage shotgun?
The RL weapon system the Panther most obviously resembles in an antimaterial rifle like the Barret M82A1 - which kicks according to most reports like a 12 guage. The idea that the Panther recoils hard enough to "shatter the shoulder" of the user is pretty silly. Why would anybody build a one-man long arm that wounds its user?
Anyway, the point is that the recoil comp on the Panther is included for the comfort of the firer, not for the rules.
The Panther cannon is described as firing the same ammunition as the main gun in a small tank. That would make it something like the German Flak 36 88mm antiaircraft gun of WWII vintage that turned out to be a pretty nice antitank/antipersonnel gun, too - except that weapon had a crew of 7 and was towed behind a halftrack, so how the Panther has a crew of 1 is a mystery to me.
It's also a bizarre claim when the Panther's DV, which essentially represents soft tissue damage, is 10P, only 1 better than a Mossberg AM-CMDT. The main gun on a light tank is a 12 guage shotgun?
The RL weapon system the Panther most obviously resembles in an antimaterial rifle like the Barret M82A1 - which kicks according to most reports like a 12 guage. The idea that the Panther recoils hard enough to "shatter the shoulder" of the user is pretty silly. Why would anybody build a one-man long arm that wounds its user?
Anyway, the point is that the recoil comp on the Panther is included for the comfort of the firer, not for the rules.
Zen Shooter01: Check out the Barrett Payload Rifle/XM109. The Panther Assault Cannon was originally based on the Barrett M82, of course, but based on the general description of assault cannons, and their effects at least in SR3, the XM109 makes for a slightly better fit.
Austere: I wasn't aware of the new Barret until you mentioned it. To which I say, yes, of course, because the M82A1 .50 BMG is a gun for sissies.
Uh, correct my math, but isn't 25mm nearly twice the diameter of a .50?
We're both right - the Panther "assault cannon" is, judging from its characteristics, an antimaterial rifle.
Uh, correct my math, but isn't 25mm nearly twice the diameter of a .50?
We're both right - the Panther "assault cannon" is, judging from its characteristics, an antimaterial rifle.
Yep, it's that big. The projectile of the 25x59Bmm training round and, I assume, the HEAB round weighs slightly over 2000 grains, compared to ~650-750 grains for 12.7x99mm projectiles. The muzzle velocity is also much lower, of course. I haven't seen any reliable figures on it yet, but it's probably somewhere around 1700-1800fps, vs. 2900-3300fps for full-caliber 12.7x99mm rounds.
HEAB = High Explosive Armor Bashing, or what?
From the Barrett Page on the XM109
| QUOTE |
| Optional Sound Supressor available |
Sweet. Also, this thing must kick like a troll-mule lovechild.
Right. So nobody will notice.
High Explosive Air Bursting, the XM1019.
The XM109 has been tested to have a recoil energy of 57.51ft-lbs with the training rounds (which should behave like the HEAB rounds). That's very stiff, but manageable. Not something you'd want to fire all day long, but not going to bruise you if you handle it properly either.
The XM109 has been tested to have a recoil energy of 57.51ft-lbs with the training rounds (which should behave like the HEAB rounds). That's very stiff, but manageable. Not something you'd want to fire all day long, but not going to bruise you if you handle it properly either.
Meh. I stick by my "Don't even think about it, Bub" rule. I never tried to compare the assault cannon to a real weapon, I merely got an image in my head. The assault cannon is a heavy weapon, almost always vehicle mounted. Some ridiculously strong men (mostly trolls) pick it up unmounted and fire from the hip or shoulder. But it's not really meant for that. If I felt I needed a rule for it, I would assume that it causes a certain amount of recoil by default. But I don't, because the assault cannon in our campaign has a certain style. Shadowrun, in my game, is like an over-the-top action movie. The guns don't work like real ones because they instead conform to our sense of "Wouldn't it be cool?".
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with trying to match stuff up with real world equivalents and making them work along those lines, but that is no more or less valid than my method.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with trying to match stuff up with real world equivalents and making them work along those lines, but that is no more or less valid than my method.
In fact, the method is the same. Some of us just find real firearms way cooler than silly fictional weapons.
You could always pull the Will Smith "Noisy Cricket" thing with that Elf Mage as well .
. | QUOTE |
| Right. So nobody will notice. |
Somehow, I don't think that anyone in a 10 meter radius of this thing is going to notice the second shot, supressor or not.
Adding a supressor to your AMR is to reduce the amout of dust kicked up when you shoot, making you much harder to see. This, of course, means that you can't use a muzzle brake, but if it means less artillery called down on your position, it sounds like a good deal.
According to the safety tests done by the military on it, it should only have a sound pressure level of 156dB when firing live ammunition, though for some reason the same results claim it created 174dB when firing training rounds. Even the latter should compare quite favorably to an M82A1.
Like others I have always seen the panther like barrets payload rifle but with not so versatile and less effective ammunition choices.
On a semi-related note, heres a page with a pic of a barret .50 with a suppressor.
Reflex Suppressors
Another thought is that the panther is a future version of FNH:s HIWS. The latest HV-40 looks interesting but my favorite is still the 76mm HIWS shown at blackwater. That one needs recoil reduction more than most infantry weapons.
Btw, why does every one assume that .50 cal breaks bones and sends the shooter flying 20 feet everytime he/she pulls the trigger? Even I have fired the barrett m82a1 from a standing position.
On a semi-related note, heres a page with a pic of a barret .50 with a suppressor.
Reflex Suppressors
Another thought is that the panther is a future version of FNH:s HIWS. The latest HV-40 looks interesting but my favorite is still the 76mm HIWS shown at blackwater. That one needs recoil reduction more than most infantry weapons.
Btw, why does every one assume that .50 cal breaks bones and sends the shooter flying 20 feet everytime he/she pulls the trigger? Even I have fired the barrett m82a1 from a standing position.
The power of the Panther has been scaled down considerably, relative to earlier editions of the game. It's still a big, scary gun, and my NPCs would react to it the same as they'd react to any big, scary gun. I don't, however, feel the overwhelming need to maul a player for firing a weapon that, frankly, was designed to be fired. As someone else mentioned, the power level is only slightly greater than a combat shotgun.
I may, however, provide aiming bonuses (or, more likely reduce aiming penalties) for shooting from a makeshift rest, or prone position. It is, after all, reasonably heavy, and aiming with something that unwieldy can't be easy during the harrowing, chaotic event that is a firefight.
I may, however, provide aiming bonuses (or, more likely reduce aiming penalties) for shooting from a makeshift rest, or prone position. It is, after all, reasonably heavy, and aiming with something that unwieldy can't be easy during the harrowing, chaotic event that is a firefight.
You might concievably end up using the recoil compensation if you shot two non-identical weapons in the same turn.
It'd be dumb but I can imagine someone trying it.
It'd be dumb but I can imagine someone trying it.
Panter XXL cant harm an Ares Citymaster.
-> Light Tanks cant harm each other
-> Light Tanks cant harm each other
Light tanks are usually not armed with 25mm cannon.
The light tanks I can think of all have much bigger main armament:
PT-76 76mm main gun
M551 Sherridan 152mm Main gun
M24 Chafee 75mm main gun
Centauro Light Tank 105mm main gun
The light tanks I can think of all have much bigger main armament:
PT-76 76mm main gun
M551 Sherridan 152mm Main gun
M24 Chafee 75mm main gun
Centauro Light Tank 105mm main gun
Unless they are refereing to something like an M2A3 Bradley, which is closer to an APC but comes with a 25mm main weapon. Of course it isn't SS, it is a chain gun. They also fire ammos that are a lot nastier than normal rounds.
EDIT Barrel length could also be a factor. Same ammo with a shorter barrel means less muzzle velocity, leading to less penetration.
EDIT Barrel length could also be a factor. Same ammo with a shorter barrel means less muzzle velocity, leading to less penetration.
Always seem to me that Panther cannons were some extreme version of this
http://www.waltmusser.org/Rifle.htm
Just with 100 years of hi-tech add to them
Baron
http://www.waltmusser.org/Rifle.htm
Just with 100 years of hi-tech add to them
Baron
The 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon of the M2 Bradley fires projectiles up to 50% heavier than the Barrett XM109 at more than twice the velocity -- that's 6x the muzzle energy of an XM109. It can penetrate the frontal armor of any APC or IFV I'm aware of. It will completely fuck up any land animal it hits.
The "small tank" bit of fluff only makes sense if it actually means a very light IFV or APC that happens to mount an OCSW-type weapon. Or if IFVs/APCs in the 2060s-2070s have gone back to using very light autocannons. In any case, it is irreconcilable with the damage code.
The "small tank" bit of fluff only makes sense if it actually means a very light IFV or APC that happens to mount an OCSW-type weapon. Or if IFVs/APCs in the 2060s-2070s have gone back to using very light autocannons. In any case, it is irreconcilable with the damage code.
Recoilless rifles are in a class of their own. I think this thread is the last occasion I explained why recoilless rifles do not equal assault cannons. The projectiles they fire are an order of magnitude bigger than what we're considering here.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 14 2006, 06:52 AM) |
| The 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon of the M2 Bradley fires projectiles up to 50% heavier than the Barrett XM109 at more than twice the velocity -- that's 6x the muzzle energy of an XM109. It can penetrate the frontal armor of any APC or IFV I'm aware of. It will completely fuck up any land animal it hits. The "small tank" bit of fluff only makes sense if it actually means a very light IFV or APC that happens to mount an OCSW-type weapon. Or if IFVs/APCs in the 2060s-2070s have gone back to using very light autocannons. In any case, it is irreconcilable with the damage code. |
It is my understanding that the M242 is even quite dangerous to a lot of proper battletanks, although likely not so much to their front armor.
It makes it a lot worse if you assumed it is the Panther XXL itself strapped to the front of the vehicle. Trying to fire an M242 by hand, even just a single shot, wouldn't be so much recoil as lift-off.
[EDIT]Assuming you could pick up the 100kg or so core assembly.[/EDIT] You can count on the muzzle velocity being a lot lower because of a shortened barrel, as the M242 barrel is nearly 7' long.Venting like BaronSameday suggested would further reduce the velocity, although I would think it quite the trick to having venting like that without BBQing your face with the PAC as pictured.
The Panther XXL with an APDS load would punch through an Ares Citymaster.
Against a living person the damage code is a maybe a touch low, but not drastically compared to other SR damage. A normal round against a very fit unaugmented human, Body 6, wearing Full Body Armor is resisting a minimum of 11 boxes with only 11 dice. They likely aren't going to die when winged with a single net hit roll like that but they are going to be seriously hurting, likely with less than 1/2 their damage track left. If you have anything better than normal ammo loaded they are in serious, serious trouble. Someone with no armor is also in very serious trouble. Even wearing an armored vest makes nearly no difference over no armor with a normal round.
Comparing the damage code to the shotgun is more an issue with how Flechette is handled.
The 25mm on the Bradley may have trouble with the frontal armor of the BMP3. The claim is protection from 30mm AP from teh 2A42 at 300 meters.
Do you know what kind of AP rounds that's supposed to be tested with? The basic Russian AP rounds aren't too special, but if they mean their newer APDS rounds then the M919s would indeed have trouble with it.
The later versions of the CV90 can handle that, quote: "protects against 30mm APFSDS".
The CV90 can be ordered with 20-40mm autocannon, twin 120 mortars or a 120mm cannon.
Slightly offtopic though
The military type vehicles between MBT:s and softskins are pretty messed up in SR.
The CV90 can be ordered with 20-40mm autocannon, twin 120 mortars or a 120mm cannon.
Slightly offtopic though
The military type vehicles between MBT:s and softskins are pretty messed up in SR.
Not to disrupt this conversation, but to my likeing, Robocop I had a nice take on the Assault Cannon.
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