Full Version: A matter of theroetical magical limits..
Where exactly does one find all the stuff on Free Spirits, anyway? Are there any SR4 rules for them, or only in SR3 right now?
Magic in the shadows 3ed at the present I believe.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| What I want to know is if Free Spirits can bond Foci. |
I am sure they could if they had the Karma available, or you can learn its name, invest the karma, and create an additional form as a foci.
| QUOTE (Pendaric) |
| True in that is magic but magic has rules and not the game mechanics, the paradigm of the magician in question derives the style and type of powers they have. So 'why' defines the 'what' they can. Hence phys ads, aspected, full hermetics/shamans/hougans/pyschics/wu jen ect all have different powers. Magic yes but different, its the same as calling all colours the same as they are colours, neh? Hence am try (so far unsuccessfully) to provoke discussion on interesting thing to do with magic for roleplaying purposes. And SL James am hoping your refering to the internal drive of market consumption and game balence not just being a tosser. |
Magic in the game seems to have rules that are metagame, such as "No bringing the dead back to life" and "No telepoting". Beyond that, it seems alls fair. Where I had a problem was that people earlier in the thread were trying to apply elements of physics to magical theory.
| QUOTE (Jerob @ Mar 29 2006, 12:05 AM) |
| I think the portion of discussion regarding the creation of matter, transferrence of energy, etc is a little misguided. When you say, "This plane can fly" and someone asks "Why?" you can discuss aeronautics, etc. When someone asks, "How did you just shoot that fireball from your hands?" The answer itself is simply "magic". Shamans and Mages know how to invoke these effects. Mages try to quantify them into formulas etc, but in general it is simply a matter of "If you do this and twist your thumbs like this, this can happen." So I think trying to explain How magic works is a circular argument. The How of magic is simply put, magic. |
I disagree.
A Mage's explination would probably be closer to "draw fourth 22 kiloleprins of mana, shape it into a reverse kogen configuration with a 33 degree angel a 22 mm radius and counterclockwise spiral and then project it outward toward your target".
Magic works consistantly based on real forces. It is simply that the vast majority of metahumanity cannot percieve these forces. The important thing to remember is that magic is so consistant that any mundane who sat through spell design long enough to know a "reverse kogen configuration" from a ritz cracker can make a working fireball spell.
I view Shadowrun/Earthdawn magic and metaphyics as being intimatly tied to the physics of the Shadowrun/Earthdawn universe. In fact, it seems apparent to me that physics is derived from and subordinate to metaphysics. Magic isn't necessarilary limited by physical laws but physical laws are a direct result of the way that magic works. Of course, my theory is impossible to confirm and hinges on my understanding of the nature of Patterns and True Pattern which may or may not be correct.
I agree with Hyzmarca. And that spell formula example was great.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| A Mage's explination would probably be closer to "draw fourth 22 kiloleprins of mana, shape it into a reverse kogen configuration with a 33 degree angel a 22 mm radius and counterclockwise spiral and then project it outward toward your target". |
That works for a Mage, but a shaman is something like, sing till you feel your inner man runs with the wolf, catch the energy of the wind with your heart and release it through the toothy grin of the fox.
But wait this is a ...no it carn't be..a discussion on magic! Thank you! 
I mean that sincerly, BB's often make things sound sarcastic so am being anal about spelling this out, sorry.
Here's another set of interesting set of potential questions, can spirits summon spirits? If so is this akin to reproduction or simply a summons to an existing spirit....
I mean that sincerly, BB's often make things sound sarcastic so am being anal about spelling this out, sorry.
Here's another set of interesting set of potential questions, can spirits summon spirits? If so is this akin to reproduction or simply a summons to an existing spirit....
| QUOTE (Pendaric) |
| And SL James am hoping your refering to the internal drive of market consumption and game balence not just being a tosser. |
Can't it be both?
But seriously, no, I meant the in-game market.
| QUOTE (Jerob) |
| Magic in the game seems to have rules that are metagame, such as "No bringing the dead back to life" |
i would like to point out that this is not prohibited anywhere in SR. everyone assumes it is, but no one has been able to show anything in any of the books that say it can't be done.
I've been thinking about it alot too. I guess you'd have to determine what actually happens when death occurs. How does it affect your Karma? How does it affect your essence? How does it affect your, for lack of a better world, spirit. Does death from a natural cause have different affects than dying an natural death? Is a Violent Death different from peaceful death?
In my situation, my players (like me) are all coming from the MMO world, where Perma-death doesn't really exist, so I've definetly been thinking about the "Rez" spell in SR.
In my situation, my players (like me) are all coming from the MMO world, where Perma-death doesn't really exist, so I've definetly been thinking about the "Rez" spell in SR.
For what it's worth, in Dragon Heart series Darke was able to kill someone and immediately ressurect them as a blood spirit. However, it was a pre-planned ritual and so on. So that doesn't mean that someone can die in a "normal" way, and then be called back to any kind of life.
There is also the matter of Ancestor Spirits...
We havn't seen anyone cast Journey to Life yet but that doesn't mean it can't be done at this point in the mana cycle; it just means that no one who knows the spell has cared enough to try it that we know of.
Just because the Caspian Sea has water in it doesn't mean that it can't be done.
The closest thing to ressurection magic the PCs have access to is the Hand of God which appears to be some odd form of reality-altering magic, possibly performed by a powerful unseen Free Spirit, Idol, Totem, or Passion. This isn't ressurrection per se as it can't be used to ressurrect after the fact, only to prevent death at the moment a fatal wound should have been recieved.
Just because the Caspian Sea has water in it doesn't mean that it can't be done.
The closest thing to ressurection magic the PCs have access to is the Hand of God which appears to be some odd form of reality-altering magic, possibly performed by a powerful unseen Free Spirit, Idol, Totem, or Passion. This isn't ressurrection per se as it can't be used to ressurrect after the fact, only to prevent death at the moment a fatal wound should have been recieved.
| QUOTE (Pendaric) |
| Here's another set of interesting set of potential questions, can spirits summon spirits? If so is this akin to reproduction or simply a summons to an existing spirit.... |
I play that they may learn the ability, like any other skill.
Many have argued that they may not because it is the alter ego of Sorcery which is a specific free spirit power, and since there is no Conjuring free spirit power they must not be able to prform such magic. I could counter argue until the cows need milked, but it basically comes down to does the GM want them to have that ability? Much like do you want free spirits, or shapeshifters for that matter, to be able to interbreed with metahumans?
Here's another one for the dead resurrection line, Corp Cadavers and zombies. The later are dual natured due to inhabiting spirits that give them motivation, hence the Grande zombie free spirit.
The later are also powered by spirits but are not dual natured and immune to mana based offensive spells due to being dead? Odd.
The theory that magic can animate but not resurrect a dead body is implied but definitive, the Cadaver ritual is supposedly a conjuring ritual but that means an inhabiting spirit and therefore a dual nature.?
Can anyone else see any other explanation other than it is in fact sorcery energising dead bodies to get up and walk?
The later are also powered by spirits but are not dual natured and immune to mana based offensive spells due to being dead? Odd.
The theory that magic can animate but not resurrect a dead body is implied but definitive, the Cadaver ritual is supposedly a conjuring ritual but that means an inhabiting spirit and therefore a dual nature.?
Can anyone else see any other explanation other than it is in fact sorcery energising dead bodies to get up and walk?
Corpse Cadvre is sorcery not conjuring. There are no spirits involved just a spell.
Quick post for me, forgive me if I re-hash some stuff, but I only skimmed the thread. These are how I make the magic "real" for my game.
Elemental manipulations convert mana to a temporary physical form. After an acid stream goes off, the acid vanishes, leaving only the effects.
I don't remember a Create Food spell, and I don't think that mana can permanently change the base composition of something. I agree that there could be a "I Don't Feel So Hungry" buff spell, but not something that permanently creates food from nothing.
Healing spells don't create blood, they accelerate the body's processes to promote faster healing, and direct them at the will of the caster to eliminate scarring.
I saw somewhere that SR doesn't bring the dead back to life, it only re-animates, whether it be through sorcery or habitation by a spirit.
Crap, I have to correct myself. There was the Petrify spell, which was permanent if held long enough. Hmmm, still though, that is calcifying tissue, which can occur naturally, and not pooling H, C, and O atoms to make a sandwich. OK, I stand by my initial assessment. Magic can accelerate processes, alter energy/matter temporarily to produce an effect, but the alteration is temporary.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, Hyzmarca's "mage explaining casting" is perfect! I am so gonna have an NPC keep trying to explain magic to mundane PCs that way.
Elemental manipulations convert mana to a temporary physical form. After an acid stream goes off, the acid vanishes, leaving only the effects.
I don't remember a Create Food spell, and I don't think that mana can permanently change the base composition of something. I agree that there could be a "I Don't Feel So Hungry" buff spell, but not something that permanently creates food from nothing.
Healing spells don't create blood, they accelerate the body's processes to promote faster healing, and direct them at the will of the caster to eliminate scarring.
I saw somewhere that SR doesn't bring the dead back to life, it only re-animates, whether it be through sorcery or habitation by a spirit.
Crap, I have to correct myself. There was the Petrify spell, which was permanent if held long enough. Hmmm, still though, that is calcifying tissue, which can occur naturally, and not pooling H, C, and O atoms to make a sandwich. OK, I stand by my initial assessment. Magic can accelerate processes, alter energy/matter temporarily to produce an effect, but the alteration is temporary.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, Hyzmarca's "mage explaining casting" is perfect! I am so gonna have an NPC keep trying to explain magic to mundane PCs that way.
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