I submitted the issue to Rob Boyle at FanPro and he was gracious enough to address the question thusly:

Well, I guess that takes care of this thread.

All that's left is to figure "reasonable" costs for different types of safehouses.

Just for clarification, I have to pay rental + association dues + electricity + water + phone bills for the two condo units I rent every month, whether or not I use the place. Safe houses should be available as "alternate" lifestyles.

But you don't pay for another transportation, groceries, on-demand entertainment (pretty much everything in the future), nor do you pay the typical price for electricity, water, and phone (unless you're a package deal kinda guy) - you pay the minimum for them. That said, I can see charging full lifestyle costs to represent money spent making given safehouse a fleshed out life (thus making it seem like a normal person residence rather than a safehouse).

EDIT: Nevermind.

Having expanded "lifestyle" to incorporate eating out, getting a taxi, and all that good stuff is kind of handy... a lot of my players have upgraded from the typical SR3 "Low" lifestyle to Medium or High simply because it has in-game perks of not having to pay for incidentals. I've got this one player who's sticking with Low because the other players always end up saying "hey, the cost of this meal is included in my lifestyle"... I should figure out some other kind of perk to wave at him.

I dunno, lifestyle should reflect the level it's bought at... middle lifestyle (irl at least) doesn't allow you to eat out all the time, let alone at anythinhg considered a good restaurant.
I like the idea of having an extra apartment/ dosss/ hideyhole somewhere or three. I'll have to negotiate those with the other peopole in my group.
I'd still like some answer as to what the safehouses skill does.

I see 2 kinds of safehouses, yours and theirs. The Safehouses skill should allow you to locate one of theirs that's available and in your area (for a fee, of course) Maybe extra hits reduce the fee, or help you find one "nicer" for the same cost?

If it's yours, then you pay for it with lifestyle (which I'm allowing in my game).

Safehouses skill is like a Nightclubs skill. It lets you in on the buzz about certain places, what to look for in a good safehouse, and how to spot a fake.

Example? The team mage is unconscious after a raid on a Yakuza warehouse, where they've picked up a stray meat puppet and maybe a tail. They need to hideout for a little while where the Yakuza doesn't have much influence (+ Yakuza Politics), they can access medical treatment to help the mage and defrag the joytoy (+ Shadow Clinics), and a location with good tactical advantage to spot their tail (+ Safehouses).

It's sort of a team test, since the skills are spread from the gunbunny to the face. However, due to the complex nature, I'm running each one separate.

The Face rolls her Yakuza Politics + Intuition, scoring 2 hits. The GM tells her, "You know the Yaks are afraid to hit the docks and don't have much influence or informants around the Aztech complex. They've been in an arms race in Renton and Redmond, lately, as well."

The Gunbunny rolls her Shadow Clinics + Logic, scoring another 2 hits. The GM says, "You know a mafia doc in Renton and a backdoor bodyshop near the Pyramid. There might be a doctor you can call in, for a little extra."

Then the Cover Ops rolls Shafehouses + Intuition, scoring 4 hits. The GM says, "There's a bunch of crap holes in Renton, many free of charge. There's a pretty secure cargo ship on the docks that sells its services as a stash house, but for a price they might let you stay for a time. And there's a coffin hotel right in the Pyramid's shadow that stowes Azzie rebels, outfitting them for Denver ops. They're not very open to outsiders, but rumors say that the owner hates Baroka Parlors, so you may be able to push that angle."

The skill could also let you find safehouses run by 'enemies', such as "the FBI is rumored to have a safehouse in Everett - maybe even the old Holden Street Mansion, though that seems unlikely."

Man... living in Seattle has my concept of "Cost of Living" all screwed up. The mean price for a place to live in this COUNTY is now $420,000. Condos in outlying areas go for about 1k a square foot, with the ones downtown being easily 3-5x that. The concept of maintaining a condo near each job you work in case traffic is bad sounds really appealing...

The price of safehouse arrangements will vary greatly.

- safehouse type: fortress style or hiding hole
- enemy: from what kind of tracing measures are you hiding? is your face known by the public?
- one-shot costs more than the long-term setup, but the later looses safety with each use

One-Shot
Your fixer provides an apropiate place and makes all necessary arrangements with the local authorities (gangs, syndicates, law enforcement). Professional fixers will also provide you with equipment and supplies needed on such occasions.

DIY:
You find a flat, make any arrangements yourself, and be done with. Safety depends on the barrier between your normal life and the secondary lifestyle. Money not spend on living amenities covers the price of simulating a normal life (ie. updating credit history for your imaginary run)



All things considered, we allow for secondary lifestyles at full cost, while the cost for safehouses varys greatly. 500¥ might just be a bargain price...

Pretty much. Guy smashes in your window, climbs inside, and takes off with your VCR, figuring he can sell it for 20 bucks to someone.

Of course, when he gets inside and spots the 20k worth of stuff you've got lying around your ultra-posh "Low" lifestyle apartment, he may call a bunch of his friends to come over...

One way to explain paying full lifestyle costs for a safehouse is that you are actually paying lifestyle costs for cousin Brenda, her husband Tom, and their three children; Slappy, Smacky, and Sue. Of course, Brenda isn't really your cousin, Tom isn't really her husband, none of the children are related to each other, and they keep a small arsenal in the basement but the neighbors don't know that.

Of course, you'd probably have to pay the actors a salary in addition to their fake jobs so it should cost more than a lifestyle.

If this one player isn't paying any attention to his lifestyle, well that's fine. There are people like that in real life too. In both cases, the pressure comes from those he or she associates with. When your face starts getting penalties to his negotiation rolls with the japanese johnson because of his friend in the hand me down clothes, then the other players will start nagging him. And that's how it should be.

And don't forget sex, of course. Depending on age and gender of the player involved, he could get quite piqued when the girl(s) go for the others and want to ditch the sad case who keeps tagging along. Or worse - one of the other players has an interest and Homer blows it for him.

If the player wants his character to be a low-living type, then that's fine. But if your player is simply treating lifestyle as a non-issue because it doesn't have a game mechanic attached, then you need to communicate the reality of things to that player.

If you want prices on buildings not lifestyles. Sprawl Sites has a list of various sized and equipped apartments.
I'm used this modifyed slightly to take into account the rise in lows cost.

Didn't Sprawl Survival Guide have a point buy system for lifestyle? It would seem like this is a better way to go since you wouldn't have to repay points for food, entertainment, and other necessities and could simply pay for the space and the security.

I don't really see what the problem is with renting safehouses.

It's the price for you to find a reliable guy, and say to him "hey, I want a place to stay, no questions asked, that's decently secure."

He makes his living, among other ways, by hiding people. If one of your safehouses gets blown, well... you're the only one who could have told the people looking for the guy hiding in it where it was. Not good for business.

If players want to set up their own bolt-hole, they need to figure it out with the GM, as such things are going to vary so widely in terms of what they have in them that an appropriate-for-your-game cost needs to get figured out. If they have to stay low for a couple of days until the thing they're selling moves and it stops being worth the corp's while to come after them, they can call their buddy Ray up and say "Look, man... I need somewhere safe to live for a couple of days. Can you help me?" And for the tune of about 500 a day, he's willing...

Hmm, after everyone has had time to think about it, I'm wondering what they've decided to do about Runners setting up their own Safehouses as second/third/fourth/fifth/ect lifestyles.

Personally I've decided that it costs 1/2 normal when not in use, but like everything else you get what you pay for.

I charge full lifestyles for safehouses.

Partially because it is easier on the book keeping, partially because most safehouses are in the barrens, so will be a low-lifestyle, so low cost.
Part of the cost is making sure that power, water, sewer, etc.. stay hooked up, which is not guaranteed in the barrens.

I use the advanced lifestyle rules in the 3rd ed sprawl survival guide, which lets you separate things like space costs and food costs. Is that cheating?

I run safe houses at 1/2 of the equivelent life style cost if you just keep basic utilities and resources there, but otherwise keep it bare and empty. I charge 3/4 if you work to keep it well stocked, stay there occasionally, and maybe have someone check on it occasionally.

As far as finding safehouses on the fly, I either require a successful safehouse knowledge check to find one, or a contact that you really trust. Such safehouses usually cost a lot, 500 nuyen a day and up, up, up.

I charge something between 1/2 and 1/4 lifestyle for safe houses, but mostly this is handled through roleplaying, favors and in a case by case basis...


and, oh, "low lifestyle" is so cyberpunk, isn't it? I wonder how common are different lifestyles in your gaming groups...

In my groups there are like 13 characters (some players have two chars)
and there are 7 characters living with a low lifestyle, four living with a high lifestyle, one medium and one squatter hacker. Curiously, the girl players have all high lifestyle characters.

But maybe this should go into another thread...

Cheers

Max

The way I like it is to run my character's safehouses tacked to a fake SIN, this making the SIN have credit, property, etc and look better and then pay some schlub to house-sit once a month and have my SIN be a businessman or "jet-setter" or something and thus it makes sense for him to be at home rarely. Kills two birds with one stone as far as the safehouse and the SIN goes and also makes a justification for paying a bit more. I usually run 3/4 lifestyle since it isn't fully occupied and also life-style is more than just where you live and the bills associated with that.

A good cover for low-lifestyle safe house, is have the Fake SIN linked to a long haul trucker ser up. Not home often, irregular basis, and will often have company when they do.

Yeah I have to admit I have always ignored (actually had missed) the 'only 1 lifestyle'.

All of mine have always paid for lifestyles for each of their SINs ...

And often have one or two 'low' lifestyle not associated with a sin..

(cash to gangers for a place to crash kind of deal).

I think the 'intent' is to be.

The lifestyle represents what you can buy without effecting your wealth. (think simplified 'wealth check' from that other popular game

Secondary safehouse / etc as intended would be paid seperatly but with no guidline of how much...

To me I greatly prefer the:

SIN A; Has paid 3 months low-lifestyle.
SIN B, has paid 3 month High Lifestyle.
SIN C, lifesyle yeah sure....

6 month paid low-life style with XYZ Gang in barrent. (strictly cash/goods).

Since my characters (as player or GM) will often change SINs faster then guns or their underwear, The above sounds more reasonable.

Especially considering if you high amd mighty High Class SIN gets tagged, you high life style is going to be frozen also.

Not Like John BigDollars: Permenant High lifestyle, gets busted and SIN tagged as criminal, is going to be able to access the High Lifestyle with his emergency Jimmy OnD Lamb SIN.

I see the safehouses in SR4 as secure, armored, and warded hotel rooms.
They are equipped with food for a small group for a couple of days.
Have wired and hidden cameras for watching the outside.
Easily defendable layouts, and a hidden bolt hole for escape.

Also they are owned by a organization that acts in ways to prevent you from being tracked down, can get you basic arms ans supplies, and doesn't ask any questions.

Now If you just want don't want to go home for a couple of days, get a hotel.