Safe houses in SR4
Looking at SR4 lifestyle rules it specifically states that you can only have one lifestyle and safe houses just count as extra expenses. But I can’t find a reference to what they would cost.
Edward
Full Version: Safe houses in SR4
p. 304-305
Aye, but at 500Y per day they must be talking about renting someone's secure and private Safehouse, not the Upkeep of maintaning a hidden building somewhere otherwise no team could afford the Monthly bill of 15,000Y for even a single Team Safehouse, which I find very hard to believe.
Personally if I were running a game I think I'd charge something like ~half of normal Lifestyle Cost for just a semi-private building plus any extras that the Team might want, such as Security Systems, Weapons, food, ect...
Personally if I were running a game I think I'd charge something like ~half of normal Lifestyle Cost for just a semi-private building plus any extras that the Team might want, such as Security Systems, Weapons, food, ect...
I just let players buy as many lifestyles as they want. What's the harm?
I usually price safehouses between 50 and 500 nuyen depending on what services are provided. A one room economy apartment in the barrens with nothing but a bed, stove, and toilet would cost less than renting a house equipped with a full rigger sensor suite, wifi inhibiting paint/wallpaper/construction matierals, with a trained paracritter guard and bound spirits 
personally, i think the designers were smoking crack when they came up with the 1 lifestyle per character rule.
honestly, what is so horribly gamebreaking about having multiple lifestyles? what is so hideously wrong with the runners *gasp* actually having a place that they use for hiding when things go bad? are they just idiots, and don't have enough brains to know that, sooner or later, they're gonna need to hide from someone?
frankly, mandatory stupidity (not having a safehouse owned and ready at all times) simply should not cost the characters anything (let alone 500
a day). that's called punishing the players for what you forced them to do. gee, that sounds like a great idea. while we're at it, why not make a rule that you have to take your knife (only) to a gunfight, and as a special rule just to make you feel extra welcome, first aid only works on knife wounds. gee, that sounds like a great rule too.
honestly, what is so horribly gamebreaking about having multiple lifestyles? what is so hideously wrong with the runners *gasp* actually having a place that they use for hiding when things go bad? are they just idiots, and don't have enough brains to know that, sooner or later, they're gonna need to hide from someone?
frankly, mandatory stupidity (not having a safehouse owned and ready at all times) simply should not cost the characters anything (let alone 500
a day). that's called punishing the players for what you forced them to do. gee, that sounds like a great idea. while we're at it, why not make a rule that you have to take your knife (only) to a gunfight, and as a special rule just to make you feel extra welcome, first aid only works on knife wounds. gee, that sounds like a great rule too.
I would totally allow multiple lifestyles, I see absolutely nothing gamebreaking about multiple lifestyles. In fact, I regard them as almost mandatory. However, I certainly charge them for the lifestyles.
| QUOTE (Geekkake) |
| I would totally allow multiple lifestyles, I see absolutely nothing gamebreaking about multiple lifestyles. In fact, I regard them as almost mandatory. However, I certainly charge them for the lifestyles. |
oh, absolutely charge them for the lifestyles. that's the limiting factor of course... i figured that was kind of assumed. you know, right up there with "yes you can buy ex-ex rounds only. no, you're not getting them free with the purchase of your gun." (in fact, so far as i can tell, SR does not, at least in 3rd or 4th, give you a loaded gun right off the bat... you have to buy bullets separately. which certainly makes sense.)
If a character has multiple lifestyles, which one do you use to determine starting cash?
whichever one is active.
personally, i would probably give a small discount on the other lifestyles (maybe even a big discount), like at least 10%, maybe as high as 25% (i don't think 50% unless i heard some pretty persuasive arguements... the real estate is the costly part, IMO, anyways).
so, whichever one is active, they pay full price for, and that is what their starting cash is based on. that's how i'd handle it, anyways.
if they paid full price for all of them, i'd give them the highest.
personally, i would probably give a small discount on the other lifestyles (maybe even a big discount), like at least 10%, maybe as high as 25% (i don't think 50% unless i heard some pretty persuasive arguements... the real estate is the costly part, IMO, anyways).
so, whichever one is active, they pay full price for, and that is what their starting cash is based on. that's how i'd handle it, anyways.
if they paid full price for all of them, i'd give them the highest.
I'd charge full price for all, and give them cash based on the highest
i'd give the discount mainly to represent that they're not paying for food, power, water, etc while not actively living there.
but of course, YMMV.
but of course, YMMV.
I wouldn't give a discount, but that's just because in SR3, lots of people would buy a permanent squatter lifestyle as a bolt-hole. While it's a lot pricier to do that now, it still gives someone quite an advantage to have a permanent lifestyle that's unlikely to be touched.
Coming to this conversation a little late, but was about to start a thread and decided to search first. Voila, I'm not the only one with a major case of the ass regarding safehouses in SR4. Some background..
SR3 page 46
It is possible for a character to purchase more than one lifestyle at a time, and may even be smart to do so. The additional lifestyles would represent the investment the character has made into creating and sustaining safehouses, private storage spaces and so on.
SR4 page 84
Characters can only purchase one lifestyle at a time, though they may pre-purchase it for months in advance if they like. Lifestyles only account for the character's regular daily living expenses and accommodations -- additional investments such as safehouses, private storage, garages, workshops, etc. must be bought and paid for separately.
SR4 page 261
Characters may only buy one lifestyle. This lifestyle truly reflects the runner's standard living circumstances. Additional living amenities such as hotel stays, workshops, safehouses, and so on are handled as separate costs.
SR4 page 304
Safehouse 500¥ per day
So, it's clear that the designers of both SR3 and SR4 agree on the terrible importance of safehouses and the presumption that runners/runner teams will have them. It's also clear that in SR4 they simply ask you to pay for the safehouse out of pocket as opposed to being part of a separate lifestyle, which makes sense to me especially given the argument in a post above about not really living there and consuming electricity, food, etc.
What ISN'T clear, however, is why page 304 lists safehouses -- something that everyone is assumed to have -- at 500¥ a bloody day.
If it is a typo (which I'm willing to wage) and was supposed to be 50¥ per day instead, then that would bring the safehouse cost to 1500¥/month (500¥ shy of a Low Lifestyle) and that seems perfectly reasonable.
So, instead of altering the rules to allow multiple lifestyles, is it not simpler to assume the cost was in error?
SR3 page 46
It is possible for a character to purchase more than one lifestyle at a time, and may even be smart to do so. The additional lifestyles would represent the investment the character has made into creating and sustaining safehouses, private storage spaces and so on.
SR4 page 84
Characters can only purchase one lifestyle at a time, though they may pre-purchase it for months in advance if they like. Lifestyles only account for the character's regular daily living expenses and accommodations -- additional investments such as safehouses, private storage, garages, workshops, etc. must be bought and paid for separately.
SR4 page 261
Characters may only buy one lifestyle. This lifestyle truly reflects the runner's standard living circumstances. Additional living amenities such as hotel stays, workshops, safehouses, and so on are handled as separate costs.
SR4 page 304
Safehouse 500¥ per day
So, it's clear that the designers of both SR3 and SR4 agree on the terrible importance of safehouses and the presumption that runners/runner teams will have them. It's also clear that in SR4 they simply ask you to pay for the safehouse out of pocket as opposed to being part of a separate lifestyle, which makes sense to me especially given the argument in a post above about not really living there and consuming electricity, food, etc.
What ISN'T clear, however, is why page 304 lists safehouses -- something that everyone is assumed to have -- at 500¥ a bloody day.
If it is a typo (which I'm willing to wage) and was supposed to be 50¥ per day instead, then that would bring the safehouse cost to 1500¥/month (500¥ shy of a Low Lifestyle) and that seems perfectly reasonable.
So, instead of altering the rules to allow multiple lifestyles, is it not simpler to assume the cost was in error?
Those are service costs... if you check into a guarded underground hotel (called safehouse) to hide - presumably that includes food (and clothing).
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Those are service costs... if you check into a guarded underground hotel (called safehouse) to hide - presumably that includes food (and clothing). |
But this suggests, then, that there is a fundamental omission of costs for personal safehouses... an aspect of the game that (as quoted on page references above) is integral to running.
Indeed, that's up to the GM.
Some sample character presented in the book have the knowledge skill where to find such safehouses for rental, though.
Some sample character presented in the book have the knowledge skill where to find such safehouses for rental, though.
does the skill let you find a "safe house" or simply a safe place to lay low for a while like the character example who is hiding out from a gang and needs to make a weappon and some light (armorer skill example I think)
What's the difference?
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Those are service costs... if you check into a guarded underground hotel (called safehouse) to hide - presumably that includes food (and clothing). |
I don't know about you, but if I was on the lam and trusted no one then the last place I'd want to hide out is a place that specializes in hosting people who are on the lam and want a place to hide out. =) What an opportunity to get royally screwed. I mean, the proprietor KNOWS that whoever is there is wanted. Reputation alone prevents them from turning the wanted party in. Yikes! And hell, even if the proprietor isn't dirty (or desperate) there's always the hired help who just might be.
This "hotel" thing sounds like a really, really, bad idea. =)
As such, I don't think that's what the 500¥ item in the list is for.
I seriously doubt you're checking into a hotel. Instead it represents you calling up your fixer and him setting you up with some fresh digs for a while.
If you see it from an info-leak-PoV, calling your fixer is even worse than simply showing up at some hotel. 
I could see $500/day as emergency expenses for short-duration unprepared hiding--you'll spend a lot more finding a bolthole at the last minute, covering your tracks, making it all look legit, and running recon and planning for your next move than normal. The price should include costs for fast but extensive preparation--if you decide to risk just checking into a motel under a fake SIN and hoping that the owners don't twig to anything or sell you out, normal motel costs will work.
However, that only makes sense for unprepared hiding. That should only come into play if the prepared safehouses have all been burned (traitor in the team, somebody got captured and is an interrogation risk, deployed on short notice to a city with no prepared safehouses or time to get them, etc.).
However, that only makes sense for unprepared hiding. That should only come into play if the prepared safehouses have all been burned (traitor in the team, somebody got captured and is an interrogation risk, deployed on short notice to a city with no prepared safehouses or time to get them, etc.).
To throw my opinion into the ring as well, I'd say that a 500¥-per-night safehouse is safe. You're paying for the security, so it makes sense that it would be, indeed, a safe house. And it doesn't have to be some sort of hotel that caters to shadowrunners (that would be almost as silly as a mall that caters to shadowrunners ...). It could be the family of a distant cousin one night, and an abandoned store on gang turf another night, and a hotel suite the next night; it just averages around 500¥ for food and lodging for each one, so it's easiest to just call it 500¥ and dispense with the niggling details.
It makes sense that a safehouse would be separate from one's lifestyle. I mean, keeping a separate lifestyle as a "safehouse" rather defeats the purpose. The useful thing about a safehouse is that you've never been there before, and you'll never go back; it might not even ever be used as a safehouse again.
It makes sense that a safehouse would be separate from one's lifestyle. I mean, keeping a separate lifestyle as a "safehouse" rather defeats the purpose. The useful thing about a safehouse is that you've never been there before, and you'll never go back; it might not even ever be used as a safehouse again.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| If you see it from an info-leak-PoV, calling your fixer is even worse than simply showing up at some hotel. |
Only if you have a low loyalty rating for him.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| (that would be almost as silly as a mall that caters to shadowrunners ...) |
That is canon - The Mall.
in the fictional account at the beginning of one of the chapters, the team is holed up in their regular safe house, a wharehouse.
So are they paying 500/d or is that considered one of their players lifestyle?
I'd go with it being a seperate lifestyle one of the sharacters pays for.... i.e. you are allowed different lifestyles. I'd imagine that lifestyles in the barrens would be cheaper to get than downtown seattle.
So are they paying 500/d or is that considered one of their players lifestyle?
I'd go with it being a seperate lifestyle one of the sharacters pays for.... i.e. you are allowed different lifestyles. I'd imagine that lifestyles in the barrens would be cheaper to get than downtown seattle.
Since you can only buy one lifestyle, that has to be a 500/day hideout.
Or a hideout that is aquired somehow and appliances and food are bought in advance.
so if I have a high lifestyle, does that include multiple dosses spread thoughout the plex?
Or does your lifestyle only include one place?
The Sprawl survival guide had good rules for such things, but it was just too much lawyering/bookkeeping.
Or does your lifestyle only include one place?
The Sprawl survival guide had good rules for such things, but it was just too much lawyering/bookkeeping.
That's where it breaks down--it shouldn't cost $500/day to maintain a single safehouse when not in use, but it doesn't make sense to allow unlimited safehouses for that amount.
It's possible that they're trying to abstract safehouses out of the game, so that there are no prepared safehouses at all, and the runners find and use them on the fly. That would make the $500/day make more sense. However, that would seem to be far too much abstraction; things like location and the nature of the threat would be too specific to abstract away, and the team needs to know where to go if they get separated.
It's possible that they're trying to abstract safehouses out of the game, so that there are no prepared safehouses at all, and the runners find and use them on the fly. That would make the $500/day make more sense. However, that would seem to be far too much abstraction; things like location and the nature of the threat would be too specific to abstract away, and the team needs to know where to go if they get separated.
Well, if you pay a team enough they can afford to maintain 10 safehouses at 15,000 per month and still have plenty left over for other expenses. If you pay the team enough.
per month and still have plenty left over for other expenses. If you pay the team enough.
I think that there's an important caveat that people are ignoring:
| QUOTE |
| Prices listed are average and will vary depending on locale and circumstances. --SR4, p. 304 |
Translation: the
500 per day price is not set in stone at all--the GM can make a safehouse as cheap or as expensive as (s)he feels it should be.
one other point
this adds to the 'why shadowrun' arguement
Bear with me
you get your (6 man team for the numbers here but it works from 3 man up)
all to move in to a single place which is a high lifestyle
cost 15000 a month
the 5 who are not primary on the lease each maintain a 6 man low lifestyle
cost 3000 per month x 5 or 15000 per month
you rent 4 of those out and get back 60000 per month at full occupancy
but most likely gonna get 2/3 occupancy so 40000 per month
You all live high lifestyle, you got 10k between ya per month to spend on upgrades and suchlike
the magicians make wards for extra cash
the weapons spec makes guns for cash
etc etc
you make 2-3 times what ya would running with less than half the risk... AND you got an extra safehouse waiting for ya when ya need it
this adds to the 'why shadowrun' arguement
Bear with me
you get your (6 man team for the numbers here but it works from 3 man up)
all to move in to a single place which is a high lifestyle
cost 15000 a month
the 5 who are not primary on the lease each maintain a 6 man low lifestyle
cost 3000 per month x 5 or 15000 per month
you rent 4 of those out and get back 60000 per month at full occupancy
but most likely gonna get 2/3 occupancy so 40000 per month
You all live high lifestyle, you got 10k between ya per month to spend on upgrades and suchlike
the magicians make wards for extra cash
the weapons spec makes guns for cash
etc etc
you make 2-3 times what ya would running with less than half the risk... AND you got an extra safehouse waiting for ya when ya need it
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| one other point this adds to the 'why shadowrun' arguement |
Ok, and I thought _I_ was thinking about this too much. =)
2/3 occupancy?
*snerk*
That's not a safehouse - that's a hotel, with Yellow Page listings et al.
Frankly, at least the "safehouse rental" idea justifies the knowledge: safehouses skill that's been in the game for at least 2 versions. (Even if it doesn't make much sense beyond that.)
Personally, I've always thought there were two kinds of safehouses: the one YOU have (with whatever defenses you can devote to it,) and the one you can get from a fixer (which might even include additional guards, wards, etc., IF you're willing to shell out the extra cash.)
*snerk*
That's not a safehouse - that's a hotel, with Yellow Page listings et al.
Frankly, at least the "safehouse rental" idea justifies the knowledge: safehouses skill that's been in the game for at least 2 versions. (Even if it doesn't make much sense beyond that.)
Personally, I've always thought there were two kinds of safehouses: the one YOU have (with whatever defenses you can devote to it,) and the one you can get from a fixer (which might even include additional guards, wards, etc., IF you're willing to shell out the extra cash.)
but safehouses as a business are Canon in 4th ed RAW
2/3 isn't THAT unreasonable, considering the number of newbie runners that get themselves in serious trouble
2/3 isn't THAT unreasonable, considering the number of newbie runners that get themselves in serious trouble
Sure, but at that rate (given that reason,) lots of these guys are going to be checking in to a safehouse that's still getting the bloodstains hosed out.
Besides, the 2nd type of safehouse I listed would be the 'pro' type - but I wouldn't expect most of them to have a permanent presence anywhere...unless they're for corp/government personnel.
Besides, the 2nd type of safehouse I listed would be the 'pro' type - but I wouldn't expect most of them to have a permanent presence anywhere...unless they're for corp/government personnel.
This just doesn't make any sense. It's true that most of the SR4 sample characters have a Safe Houses knowledge skill, but it's unclear what the hell it's supposed to be used for since that skill is not one of the example knowledge skills from the Skills chapter.
It's also true that SR3 featured an identical skill, but it also failed to explain any possible uses for it. In fact, the SR3 explanation of Safehouses (as a concept, not a skill) discusses safehouses only in the following context...
It's also true that SR3 featured an identical skill, but it also failed to explain any possible uses for it. In fact, the SR3 explanation of Safehouses (as a concept, not a skill) discusses safehouses only in the following context...
| QUOTE |
| SR3 page 241 Safehouses ---------- "Living the life of a shadowrunner is full of pitfalls, double dealings and paranoia. That means the smart runner invests in a few flop houses, known in the biz as safehouses, where they can hole up while the heat dies down. Characters can purchase as many sites as they wish by purchasing multiple lifestyles." "Safehouses work on many different levels depending on the individual. Because characters don’t live in their safehouse, they usually prefer something cheap that they can pay for without sacrificing their bottom line. Usually, safehouses are considered Low lifestyles because they are basement apartments, former warehouses, tenements and other out-of-the-way locales that they hope no one will want to search. Players can improve their safehouses by paying for upgrades themselves and still maintain the same “cheap” monthly lifestyle. Security devices, electronics, 'comforts of home,' extra weapons or biotech gear are common improvements." |
SR4's game text offers a similar feel for safehouses, indicating that they are places to keep your stuff and fall back to in an emergency. There is absolutely no reference in either edition to "safehouses-as-a-service" as has been discussed in this thread other than that SR4 lists the daily cost for a safehouse as 500¥ in the common services table.
Perhaps the Safe Houses skill (referred to as Safehouse Locations in SR3) is only used to find a suitable location for initially establishing a safehouse?
Which brings me back around to...
| QUOTE |
| If it is a typo (which I'm willing to wage) and was supposed to be 50¥ per day instead, then that would bring the safehouse cost to 1500¥/month (500¥ shy of a Low Lifestyle) and that seems perfectly reasonable. |
Which would be in line with SR3's assumption that typical runner safehouses are bought at the low lifestyle level.
Wouldn't safehouse knowledge tell you about safe houses? What's the confusion? If it's safe house related, the knowledge skill can tell you about it: good locations for creating one, who to talk to in order to find one, which ones have a history of ratting out their clientele, etc.
The problem with the safe houses skill is that there's nothing stopping non runners from having it as well. Just 15 cops with the skill at 3 would probably have a pretty good chance of tracking down and finding all of the possible locations for someone to hide, as well as identifying the known sources for "freelance safehousery."
And of course, if you've ever let the party track someone down who is in hiding by using legwork, you should also allow it for the opposition. Cops and corporate hit squads have contacts too, so in order to really hide you're best off sticking with high loyalty contacts or doing it on your own. Preferably in another city altogether, where the opposition is less likely to have well connected friends.
The problem with the safe houses skill is that there's nothing stopping non runners from having it as well. Just 15 cops with the skill at 3 would probably have a pretty good chance of tracking down and finding all of the possible locations for someone to hide, as well as identifying the known sources for "freelance safehousery."
And of course, if you've ever let the party track someone down who is in hiding by using legwork, you should also allow it for the opposition. Cops and corporate hit squads have contacts too, so in order to really hide you're best off sticking with high loyalty contacts or doing it on your own. Preferably in another city altogether, where the opposition is less likely to have well connected friends.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| The problem with the safe houses skill is that there's nothing stopping non runners from having it as well. Just 15 cops with the skill at 3 would probably have a pretty good chance of tracking down and finding all of the possible locations for someone to hide, as well as identifying the known sources for "freelance safehousery." |
Which of course is one of several problems I'm having with the notion of "safehouses-as-a-service." What's safe about it, exactly, if everyone in Seattle is capable of finding you by simply going from one known safehouse to another? The idea is ridiculous! =)
The dice rolls required for finding a specific safe house would be a lot harder than the ones required just to find yourself one to hide out in for a day or two. Exhaustive searches of all safe houses would take forever and still not be gauranteed to find the right one, especially if the people hiding move around. Possible, but not as easy as just "I look everywhere," unless the people you're looking for are easy to track already. And at 500/day you probably won't be using them very long. 
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 8 2006, 11:30 AM) |
| Wouldn't safehouse knowledge tell you about safe houses? What's the confusion? If it's safe house related, the knowledge skill can tell you about it: good locations for creating one, who to talk to in order to find one, which ones have a history of ratting out their clientele, etc. |
The confusion comes from there being no reference (ANYWHERE that I can find) to support a "safehouse-as-service" model. So then what is the purpose of the skill and why do nearly all the sample characters have it?
Is there some canon reference to this model of safehouses that I've missed? =) Is it some terribly obvious thing that I missed a long time ago, that has been integrated into the SR zeitgeist and I am now the only person left who needs it explained? =)
best ever safehouse data I found
the old rules for Coffin Hotels
Bought one as a permantnt squatter lifestyle in Sr3 for each char I made
(often had a few)
spare gun
spare armour
spare (appropriate gear for char type)
spare toothbrush
spare toothpaste
soap
towel
you strip me naked and leave me in the barrens
tomorrow I will befully equipped and hunting your ass
the old rules for Coffin Hotels
Bought one as a permantnt squatter lifestyle in Sr3 for each char I made
(often had a few)
spare gun
spare armour
spare (appropriate gear for char type)
spare toothbrush
spare toothpaste
soap
towel
you strip me naked and leave me in the barrens
tomorrow I will befully equipped and hunting your ass
I kinda thought that the safehouse knowledge skill was mopre for finding an empty tenemant or wharehouse, that type of thing where you can hide out immediately. The whole safe house as a service thing kinda bugs me.
So does buying the permenant cofin hotel count as a lifestyle? I'd say yeah.
Nice idea btw gonna have to steal that one.
If you can only have one lifestyle, doesnt that kinda make permenant lifestyles obsolete... i mean whats the pint of bying a permenant low or squatter lifestyle?
I'd probably go wiht something like one lifestyle per SIN (yeah I know lots of simless have lifestyles I'm just throwing out an idea.()
So does buying the permenant cofin hotel count as a lifestyle? I'd say yeah.
Nice idea btw gonna have to steal that one.
If you can only have one lifestyle, doesnt that kinda make permenant lifestyles obsolete... i mean whats the pint of bying a permenant low or squatter lifestyle?
I'd probably go wiht something like one lifestyle per SIN (yeah I know lots of simless have lifestyles I'm just throwing out an idea.()
There is really no point to buying a permanent squatter lifestyle. I personally don't even think that's possible. What are you doing, paying some guy to sleep in your corner of the abandoned warehouse all the time?
Buying a permanent low lifestyle means that after 100 months you're no longer paying for the roof over your head or the food you eat. 20,000 bucks for the ability to never pay bills again is something I'd do if I could, if I didn't have kids. After you've got it paid off your excess cash goes towards making it feel better than a low lifestyle by buying a bunch of cool household accessories like video game systems, high end trideo, and a french maid.
Buying a permanent low lifestyle means that after 100 months you're no longer paying for the roof over your head or the food you eat. 20,000 bucks for the ability to never pay bills again is something I'd do if I could, if I didn't have kids. After you've got it paid off your excess cash goes towards making it feel better than a low lifestyle by buying a bunch of cool household accessories like video game systems, high end trideo, and a french maid.
dude 10 gand to OWN a sngle coffin in a coffin hotel
not a bad deal
not a bad deal
Do you really expect to need to spend 334 nights in a coffin hotel in your career? And if so, what happens when someone finds out you bought it?
Actually, squatter lifestyle is 500 per month. Buying that will be 50,000, not 10,000. That means you'll have to spend 1,667 nights there in order to just barely make it worthwhile.
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