There are plenty of threads complaining about aspects of SR4 they don't like. Awesome. Now let's fix them. Pick one of those problems, and offer a resolution. And for the love of God, try to refrain from "here's X problem, IT CAN'T BE FIXED". These are, of course, simply suggested house rules.

Longshot tests: The most valid complaint I've seen regarding Edge is that there comes a point where the runner simply cannot attempt what they want to attempt. Their dicepool is reduced to zero, and don't have enough Edge to overcome the Threshold for the task. This is not only bad on players, but seems to run contradictory to the entire purpose and nature of Edge.

Solution: Make the dice explode. There's still a huge chance of failure, but frankly, if the modifiers of a situation have reduced your pool to zero, you're staring at a task that, well, exceeds your skill. You have to rely on blind luck. But luck can do crazy things, and there should never be a situation that entirely precludes the possibility of success, no matter how remote. Exploding dice allows the players to still try anything, and simply makes the chances of success more unlikely the higher the Threshold gets.

Now you try.

I do like the thread subtitle. But, to business:

Movement and variable initiative passes bother me in the way they interact. It's all very simple when everyone has 1 IP and can move X meters per Free/Simple Action.

However, when people get multiple IPs, movement breaks down in either simplicity or realism. If I can walk 10m as a Free Action and I have two IPs, should I be spending one Free per IP to move 5m? Do I spend the one Free on my first IP to move 10m, and then I can't move any more until the next round?

The method I've been using is that you look at whoever has the highest IPs, then you divide everyone's movement by that and that's how much they get to move per IP (whether they have an IP left or not). That promotes a little bit more simultaneity and gives the people with fewer IPs something to do until their next action.

It's a pain, though, and it gets all wacky when people's IPs can dynamically change. So I'm not really sure how to best handle it.

Err...if you're using edge the dice do explode, don't they?
(with the exceptions of rolling edge after the test, or rerolling failures.)

I guess...but his example was specifically a character whose pool had been reduced to zero and whose edge was less than the threshold needed - so you'd roll edge with exploding dice to solve the problem (which doesn't seem to exist, because that's what you would do anyway.)

The book specifically says that the Rule of 6 doesn't apply on Long Shot tests. The idea here is to say that it does.

ah - that's what I was missing...thanks.

I'll take a sanctimonious prick over someone just being belligerent.

That's because you don't know what you're talking about, newbie.

Why do I get the feeling that sooner or later Bull is going to be very busy with this thread...........

Or Adam. It seems that when ever James gets passionate about something the thread goes to Hell.

My biggest problem is the lack of interesting combat options for Astral and Matrix combat. Ranged and Melee have all these interesting modifiers that a player and GM can use to create tactical situations. Granted, they also encompass perhaps the largest percentage of combat in the game. Thus, I can understand why they were focused on first and Astral/Virtual combat comes second. Perhaps we'll see a return of the Matrix Combat Maneuvers from SR3 when we get Unwired, and Astral combat has always been kind of a I-hit-you-now-you-hit-me kind of thing. To that end I think we could do this:

For Matrix Combat:
Change matrix attacks back to a simple action. Then, allow the three maneuvers from third addition (parry, position, and evade) as follows. Note, I use Pilot for the skill used by the opponents below. Obviously, if you're maneuvering against a hacker, use Hacking or Computers as appropriate. As before, the maneuvers are all simple actions.

• To parry, roll Hacking + Armor, each hit gives you a +1 modification to your Armor for the following attack and only the following attack. That could mean you end up with a huge defense roll for one attack, but because matrix attacks are now simple actions again, the opponent can always try to hit you again if necessary. Glitches mean nothing happens, or maybe a slight bonus to the opponent, critical glitches could crash your Armor program or reduce it by the hits, etc.
  
  
• To position, roll Hacking + Analyze vs. Pilot + Analyze, net hits give a +1 modifier to the winner's Attack on the following round. Note, as in SR3, this means that you can end up hurting yourself rather than helping when using this maneuver. Upon further consideration, and with a review of the Melee Combat Modifiers, if the positioning character wins, they are considered to have the Superior Position modifier (+2). If they lose, then their opponent gets said modifier. I use Analyze for the program on this test because the position maneuver is all about assessing the combat's progress and using your program to detect weaknesses in the target's icon.
  
  
• Evading is the hardest one to translate. Since the SR3 version of this maneuver allowed you to evade for X combat turns reduced by any security tally increases you made, it cannot directly translate as SR4 has no security tally. Thus, I think it works best like this: the evading character rolls Hacking + Stealth. The total number of hits times two on this test become a threshold for an extended test made by the evaded icon. The extended test has an interval of 1 combat turn and is made with Pilot + Analyze. Icons evaded as a group may perform may use Teamwork to re-locate an evaded icon.
  
  Example
  Hacky McHacksalot is being attacked in cybercombat by 2 IC programs. Luckily, he goes first. Since he doesn't want to crash the programs and risk alerting the host, he decides that flight wins out, in this case, over fight. He rolls his Hacking + Stealth program and gets 3 hits. The IC programs work together to try and relocate Hacky, which requires a Pilot + Analyze (6, 1 combat turn) test. One program assists the other, giving it 2 more dice in the Teamwork Test, and the other IC rolls 4 hits on the first interval, giving Hacky a chance to try and log off.
  
  Now, if you're savvy you might wonder why you'd do an evade since you could log off in the middle of cybercombat. Well, my other addition to matrix combat is the use of the interception rules, that is if someone is attempting to perform a matrix action other than cybercombat, then the opponent's icons can attempt to intercept and block that action using the interception rules from normal melee combat. Thus, without evading first, then you might be blocked in your attempts to do something else.

Things have gotten a little more interesting for Astral combat since you can cast spells as normal while on the Astral plane now, bringing in an element of ranged combat, especially when using the indirect combat spells. I'd like to see some metamagics that deal specifically with Astral combat, perhaps one that provides a projected magician the ability to make a ranged astral combat attack rather than just melee attacks. But I haven't honestly given it as much thought because Astral combat doesn't come up as much in my games as Matrix.

[Nevermind.]

How about: "In twenty five years of gaming, I've never encountered a player who liked it in the slightest"?

It's not hyperbole to say many people don't like something. He knows many people, and of those many people he knows, they don't like it. He didn't say MOST people, which would require some kind of polling to back up. It may only be 1% or less of players, but 1% can still be "many". 1% of the world's population is 60,000,000 people. That is "many" people. It is not "most" people.
Not hyperbole.

So, is there a slightest chance your dwarf jumps 30m high in SR3?

I can't really remember, forgetting SR3 rules faster than learning SR4 ones, but wasn't that capped by Quickness or something?

never mind...

[QUOTE]No. If you default in SR3, and the target number rises above 8 (including modifiers), you simply fail. [/QUOTE]
You can fix that by removing the autofailure clause, and just allowing a normal roll. Under any dicepool +/- modifiers system, you can't do that-- even if you remove the autofailure clause, they've got no dice to try and roll with.
So, is there a slightest chance your dwarf jumps 30m high in SR3?

I can't really remember, forgetting SR3 rules faster than learning SR4 ones, but wasn't that capped by Quickness or something? [/quote]
Hydraulic jacks come to mind...

As a GM, I'm a fan of there being a system-defined point at which something is just impossible. I'm willing to throw on all sorts of positive modifiers to try and MAKE something possible, but it's really nice to be able to say "Look, your character knows he doesn't have a chance in hell of hitting what he's aiming at. You can fire just to get lead going in the right direction, but that's about it," and have a rules reason (which can always be fiat'ed around) to keep players from burning 5 minutes of playtime doing extraneous things. Basically, I see it as crowd control.

eh. you just have to make improbable things really, really improbable.

as long as its not 100% impossible, it can happen...

That's why it's called the Infinite Improbability Drive, I guess.

i think if the players would prefer to just roll the dice they're allotted without stopping to consider their chances of success, or looking for solutions that offer a greater chance of success, they'd be better off playing the SR4 base system than any modification being discussed here. that's a really dumb way to go about playing an RPG, and if the players insist on it, the GM needs to either switch to a system that doesn't smash players who play that way... or just smash the players and have done with it.

that said, i'm not sure it's the job of a game designer to keep players happy who insist on doing things the most bone-headed way possible.

maybe issue a freebie edge point

I was forced by the establishment to take statistics and logic courses at the university ... now i have to think about my chances of success everytime i even think of rolling dice.