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Rooks
Quick question, does bone density/bone lacing physical damage rating round up or down in strength is an odd number

ie I have a strength of 5 with bone density 4 damage code is str/2+3 P so does that mean 6p or 5p
hyzmarca
Round STR as usual and then add the modifier. Unfortunatly, I do not know which is usual.
Edward
I agree with hyzmarca.

Same as any other melee weapon.

Now what was it for other melee weapons.

Edward
Signal
You round up. 6P in your example.
evilgenius
Here's a related question;

Nowhere in the Bone Lacing description or in the Bone Density Augmentation description does it say you can't do both.

I mean, Dermal Plate and Orthorskin both say they're not compatible. Same with Wired reflexes and other modes of Reaction increase, same with Muscle Replacement and Muscle Aug / toner.

I mean, it makes sense to me that you can increase the density of the bones, but then also lace these newly densisified bones with a nice titanium coating.

That raises the question: What is the unarmed damage if you have both? Do you add the damage resistance dice multiple times?

just questions......
Jhaiisiin
Hmmm, that's a scary thought. Titanium superdense bones? Wow. Figure you might add half of the 2nd treatment to the bones in damage... So (don't have my book), if each adds 3 points to your punch damage, having both would only add 4 or 5 at max, though likely full armor bonuses. (You can only hit so hard, but if you make the item inpenetrable, it'll stop anything kinda thinking)
Rooks
actually only titanium lacing grants +1 impact +1 ballistic bonus not to mention the weight of the character is going to be tremendously huge like quadtruple weight, then again if your a human you'd weight the same as maybe a troll but if your a troll, maaaaan you'd kill a man just by accidently sitting on him not to mention the insanely high body stat for resistance
Shrike30
Under old rules, Titanium lacing used to add (iirc) 15 kg to the player weight. Plastic and kevlar were 5 kilos, Aluminum was 10, and I think Ceramic was either 10 or 15. "Quadruple" your weight? Not so much. Bone lacing doesn't even entirely replace the bones, it just builds a "lacing" of the material used into and around them to make them tougher. Think of reinforced concrete... you're not looking at a wall of rebar, just a concrete wall that's got a lacing of rebar inside of it.
Jhaiisiin
This does bring up another important question though. Bone lacing puts a protective sheath over your bones, to make them more durable. Bones break. Ceramic breaks. Kevlar probably just deforms. Aluminum and titanium bend. So what happens when you get hit with sufficient force to bend a laced bone? Obviously the bone inside splinters, but how do you address it? That could very easily form life-threatening clots, particularly if you have platelet factories. All manner of excruciating pain, not to mention the needed surgery just to fix the problem...

Has this ever come up and how was it handled?
Waltermandias
@Jhaiisiin That's never come up in our games, but I imagine that if someone is getting the kind of force needed to bend their titanium laced arm, they have bigger problems to worry about. dead.gif

@Evilgenius: Weird, my friends and I were talking about this just earlier today. We saw no reason why they couldn't be combined, however we did decide, in the interests of game balance, to say that the damage bonus stacks, but only to a maximum bonus of +3. Thus you could have plastic lacing and two levels of bone density and get a +2 to damage, but if you got titanium lacing and 4 levels of density you cap out at +3.
Shrike30
My interpretation of this ware is really that it's a *lacing*... it provides enough structual integrity to make the bones less "brittle", but there's not so much material that an injury that's going to destroy the bone will leave these big strips of metal bent into funny shapes. Think of a screen door... metal screens are relatively tough, but if you kick them, the screening tears apart. Bone lacing is like screening around (and in) the bone, laid there by nanites. It makes the bone stronger, but it's going to tear apart along the same seams that the bone snaps.
Shrike30
QUOTE (evilgenius)
That raises the question: What is the unarmed damage if you have both? Do you add the damage resistance dice multiple times?

I'd say yes to both. That'd be one beastly punch...

Good luck trying to get through a body scan without drawing some attention, though smile.gif
evilgenius
QUOTE (Rooks @ Mar 28 2006, 12:27 PM)
actually only titanium lacing grants +1 impact +1 ballistic bonus not to mention the weight of the character is going to be tremendously huge like quadtruple weight, then again if your a human you'd weight the same as maybe a troll but if your a troll, maaaaan you'd kill a man just by accidently sitting on him not to mention the insanely high body stat for resistance

OK, so let's see if I get this...

With bone density augmentation 4, you get +4 body for purposes of damage resistance tests. You also get (Str/2)+3 physical damage with an unarmed strike.

With titanium bone lacing, you get +3 body for purposes of damage resistance tests, +1 Ballistic, +1 Impact, and (Str/2)+3 physical damage with an unarmed strike.

IF both are compatible (and read as written there is no reason why not) then, you get

+7 body for damage resistance tests, +1 Ballistic, +1 Impact.

Now, here's another question. The Maximum Augmented Value for an attribute: Does all +7 apply for "body for damage resistance tests"? I mean, it's not "+7 body".

I mean, if you have a Body of 2, could you roll 9 dice for a resistance test, since you're not actually increasing your Body Attribute Score (it says "for damage resistance tests", which implies your attribute isn't actually changing, it's only for certain tests)...

Thanks for any thoughts on this...
fistandantilus4.0
I do have a troll with both. For sanity's sake, we allow the damage resistance to stack, but not the inflicted damage. Doesn't make much sense to us that his punch should do more than his spurs, especially since you can punch/stab with a spur.

And he does weigh a lot. Guy is a beast really. I don't play him often because it just feels like cheating. Mages still put him down pretty hard though, even wit hthe magic resistant quality and maxing his will.
Cray74
QUOTE (Rooks)
actually only titanium lacing grants +1 impact +1 ballistic bonus not to mention the weight of the character is going to be tremendously huge like quadtruple weight, then again if your a human you'd weight the same as maybe a troll but if your a troll

No. Bones are formed out of hydroxyapatite at a nominal density of about 1g/cc (and 30% collagen-type stuff, which is about 1g/cc), virtually the same as water...but that includes the porosity of bones. Hydroxyapatite on its own is about 3g/cc.

So, assuming bone density augmentations do not increase external bone size, and assuming the bones do get fully densified to 3g/cc in the most extreme bone density augmentation, then the bone mass in the body would triple. In a healthy human male, the skeleton is 15% of their weight. Picking a typical human male weight (80kg, 176lbs), the skeleton is normally 12kg (26.5lbs). Trebled, the skeleton would be 36kg (80lbs), representing a 24kg (53.5lb) increase. That's 30% above the base weight.

Per SR3, titanium bonelacing adds 15kg. That would bring the worst-case mass of the 80kg man to 119kg, call it 120kg (265lbs). That's a 50% weight increase, but not a quadrupling.

In fact, I doubt bone density would reach the full density of hydroxyapatite, because you need to leave room for the marrow; pores to access the marrow; and some porosity and collagen would be helpful in turning the bone from a brittle solid mineral into a more damage-tolerant composite structure. I'd anticipate something like doubled bone mass might be more accurate for bone density aug-4, so you'd see about 108kg for an 80kg man with BDA-4 and Titanium BL. That's a 35% weight increase.
Rooks
and for a troll?
Cray74
QUOTE (Rooks)
and for a troll?

Assuming that the percentage of a troll's weight that's bone is the same as for a human, then per my other assumptions, the BDA-4 would add 15% to the mass of the troll.

Titanium BL's weight on a troll is unchanged at 15kg.

If trolls are 225kg like I found online, then trolls would gain about 21.67% (49kg/108lbs) as a result of Ti-BL and BDA-4.

Also note that when I said "35%" for humans in the conclusion of my last post, that was for a fixed weight of 80kg.

To put that into equations for your use:

(Mass of person in kg)x1.15+15kg = new weight with TiBL and BDA-4.

{[(Mass of person in kg)x1.15+15kg]/(Mass of person in kg)} - 1 = percentage change in mass.
Azralon
QUOTE (Cray74)
Assuming that the percentage of a troll's weight that's bone is the same as for a human

A valid qualifier, as a troll endoskeleton probably needs to be more proportionately massive than a human's to support the extra body weight.
neko128
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Mar 29 2006, 12:02 PM)
Assuming that the percentage of a troll's weight that's bone is the same as for a human

A valid qualifier, as a troll endoskeleton probably needs to be more proportionately massive than a human's to support the extra body weight.

If I remember correctly, strength of structures (read: bones, in this case) increases by the square (cross-section), while weight increases by the cube (volume). If a Troll's bones aren't stronger (after scaling for size) than a human's, they'd actually be more fragile.

So yes, I agree, it's an important qualifier; I'd be willing to bed that Trolls are more dense than humans.
Rooks
as is reflected by the innate armor they have
Shrike30
That always used to be a "dermal bone deposit" kind of deal, sort of like dermal plating. I don't believe I ever saw it explained as being a skeletal structure thing. One of the big tips towards it being dermal was that it used to count as "armor" for purposes of determining if flechette got it's +1 Damage Code (pre-SR4). Those knobbly bits we always see on the artwork of trolls would be this stuff. I wonder if bone lacing would be *visible* on trolls, due to some of this stuff basically being external...
Cain
QUOTE
Now, here's another question. The Maximum Augmented Value for an attribute: Does all +7 apply for "body for damage resistance tests"? I mean, it's not "+7 body".

I mean, if you have a Body of 2, could you roll 9 dice for a resistance test, since you're not actually increasing your Body Attribute Score (it says "for damage resistance tests", which implies your attribute isn't actually changing, it's only for certain tests)...

Pretty much. Bonus dice aren't affected by the caps, and you're just discussing bonus dice.
Cray74
QUOTE (neko128)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 29 2006, 11:09 AM)

A valid qualifier, as a troll endoskeleton probably needs to be more proportionately massive than a human's to support the extra body weight.

If I remember correctly, strength of structures (read: bones, in this case) increases by the square (cross-section), while weight increases by the cube (volume). If a Troll's bones aren't stronger (after scaling for size) than a human's, they'd actually be more fragile.

So yes, I agree, it's an important qualifier; I'd be willing to bed that Trolls are more dense than humans.

I'm not sure the difference would be large between metatypes.

In humans, females typically have 12% of their weight in their skeleton, while males have 15%.

In comparison, an elephant's skeleton is ~16.5% of its weight, while a cow's skeleton is 10% of its weight. That's not very different than human skeletal percentages despite the enormous difference in mass.

QUOTE
as is reflected by the innate armor they have


No, the innate armor of trolls is from their dermal bone deposits.
Azralon
Good points on the percentages per species and human sexes.

From those samples given and sheer guesswork, it'd seem like the beasts with greater muscular capacity are going to have more bone weight.
Shrike30
If the difference between average human female and average ELEPHANT is all of 4.5% of body mass, I don't think we're going to see a noticeable bump in percentage for troll.
Brahm
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
Now, here's another question. The Maximum Augmented Value for an attribute: Does all +7 apply for "body for damage resistance tests"? I mean, it's not "+7 body".

I mean, if you have a Body of 2, could you roll 9 dice for a resistance test, since you're not actually increasing your Body Attribute Score (it says "for damage resistance tests", which implies your attribute isn't actually changing, it's only for certain tests)...

Pretty much. Bonus dice aren't affected by the caps, and you're just discussing bonus dice.

By RAW it adds to the Body Attribute, not the dice pool. Therefore it is capped.

QUOTE (page 333)
Plastic bone
lacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute for damage
resistance tests.


QUOTE (page 338)
Increase the recipientís Body by the bone density
rating for damage resistance tests.

Azralon
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Mar 29 2006, 04:55 PM)
If the difference between average human female and average ELEPHANT is all of 4.5% of body mass, I don't think we're going to see a noticeable bump in percentage for troll.

Well, there's a 3% delta between the human sexes. So it's not too wacky to expect some sort of significant difference between a human and a troll.

It's by no means necessary, but not improbable.
Azralon
QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 29 2006, 05:25 PM)
QUOTE (page 338)
Increase the recipientís Body by the bone density rating for damage resistance tests.

I dunno, the phrase "for damage resistance tests" implies that you're not actually increasing the Body rating in any situation other than damage resistance. That implies that it's a bonus to a specific test, not the raising of the attribute itself.

I do know that I'd much prefer it if it read like "Add the bone density rating to the dice used in damage resistance tests involving Body" or some such.
Cain
QUOTE
By RAW it adds to the Body Attribute, not the dice pool. Therefore it is capped.

I deconstructed the Smugger archetype, which is the only one with Bone Lacing. Her stats do not reflect an increase in Body at all, augmented or otherwise. Since every attribute augmentation is listed in parantheses after the base stat, I think it's safe to say that Bone Lacing doesn't add to the base stat.
neko128
QUOTE (Azralon)
Good points on the percentages per species and human sexes.

From those samples given and sheer guesswork, it'd seem like the beasts with greater muscular capacity are going to have more bone weight.

Not necessarily. Relative to their size, birds tend to be extremely muscular, and have incredibly light bones (they're hollow).

As for the example about elephants, men, and women, it doesn't necessarily hold; weight and strength aren't related directly. Weight is density * volume; strength is cross-section * something else. The only vague relation they have is cross section vs. volume, and that's very tenuous.

It might not be a really significant difference, but the difference is probably there.
Brahm
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
By RAW it adds to the Body Attribute, not the dice pool. Therefore it is capped.

I deconstructed the Smugger archetype, which is the only one with Bone Lacing. Her stats do not reflect an increase in Body at all, augmented or otherwise. Since every attribute augmentation is listed in parantheses after the base stat, I think it's safe to say that Bone Lacing doesn't add to the base stat.

Of course they didn't show it in the character's general Body Attribute because it doesn't belong there. It is a modification to Body that is related to specific situations, but as written it is still modifies Body and therefore. That might not be what the writer had in mind, but there it is until stated otherwise.
Cain
The same thing applies for a dwarf's Toxin resistance. Are you saying that a maxed-out dwarf gets no racial bonus at all? What about the Toughness edge?

The caps don't apply, since it's not an increase in Body-- it's a *bonus*. Bonus dice aren't the same as a general increase. Read the description of Bone Lacing; it uses the word "bonus" three times.
Rooks
only time the cap comes into effect is if you are hit with an increase attribute spell hrm that would prove facinating, hit yourself with an increase willpower spell each tiem you know your about to enter a fight to help ward off drain
Azralon
QUOTE (Rooks @ Mar 30 2006, 12:00 AM)
hrm that would prove facinating, hit yourself with an increase willpower spell each tiem you know your about to enter a fight to help ward off drain

Sure. A serious combat mage is going to (want to) have sustaining foci running Increase Reflexes, Combat Sense, Increase Willpower, Increase Body, Increase (tradition's key attribute) and/or maybe Armor.

And before anyone cries "OMFG mages are t3h broken!!!1" I'd like to invite them to calculate the drain, nuyen, and karma spent to achieve a useful level of the above buffs. I'm just saying that it's a nice goal, not that it's an easily-attainable one. smile.gif
evilgenius
QUOTE (Cain)
The same thing applies for a dwarf's Toxin resistance. Are you saying that a maxed-out dwarf gets no racial bonus at all? What about the Toughness edge?

The caps don't apply, since it's not an increase in Body-- it's a *bonus*. Bonus dice aren't the same as a general increase. Read the description of Bone Lacing; it uses the word "bonus" three times.

Man, that is just the arguement I'm lookin for.

+7 to damage resistance tests here I come!!!!

Time to make a bulletproof dwarf sammy NPC... To do so on a Troll would be just abusing the PCs!!!

wink.gif
Rooks
Something I just thought of is tailor pheremones counts towards your augmented maxium cause it says you have +X amount counted towards you social and charisma rolls but for the purposes of magic its not considered
Azralon
QUOTE (evilgenius)
Time to make a bulletproof dwarf sammy NPC

I've already got a guy built along those lines. I haven't named him yet, but on the scratch paper he's currently labeled "Four foot tall and bulletproof."
Shrike30
How would bonus dice for social and charisma tests be any different than bonus dice for damage resistance rolls, in such a way that one would count towards the augmented maximum and the other wouldn't?

I fail to see why it's confusing, i guess is what i'm saying.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Hmmm...I have been away from Dumpshock awhile but popped on to see if there was a thread specifically on this topic. Yay, I finded one!

The Mikey standard is, as someone else already stated: all the bonuses stack except for the damage in melee, which adds half of the higher value rounded up. That way, even if you have plastic bone lacing and bone density augmentation you still get the "plus one."

For those of you who need a logical explanation as to why the extra damage at all: extra solidity of lacing added to the increased density makes a harder, more durable surface with less exterior give to it, making it much more likely that the opponent's bones will bend/break before the bonelord's will. Personally, I just go with the "it sounds cool and I paid for it so I'm takin' it" logic. And no, it is not unbalanced. Likely your opponent will shoot you before you can close in to punch him.
Kyoto Kid
My question is why does Bone Lacing rate an "F" designation on the legality while Bone Density doesn't even get an "R"?
Kanada Ten
[bs] The corps pass bone density off as a cure for osteoporosis, while there was an ugly boxing fight some years back where the king of middle weights was killed by a newbie sporting lacing. As usual, the popular outcry called for a ban on lacing when that was ruled the cause (rather than a jazz OD - his manager greased the right wheels there). The ban wouldn't have gone through the legislature if Lone Star hadn't backed it, however. ;)
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
My question is why does Bone Lacing rate an "F" designation on the legality while Bone Density doesn't even get an "R"?

Because.

If you need a more thorough explanation than because...

How about just because?
Kanada Ten
Hey, say it too loud and the game police might errata bone density to F, as well...
Squinky
I'm thinking it's the same logic that restricts you from getting dermal plating 3 (a very street level augmentation) but allows orthoskin 3, heh.
mfb
maybe the law just hasn't caught up with cutting-edge tech like bioware. twenty years isn't much time!
Butterblume
It's easy: the bioware stuff is expensive, so only people with money can get it - and those are the good guys, right?

On the other Hand, poor people get those cyberenhancements to commit crimes, so those enhancements are forbidden.

Makes perfectly sense to me.

(there might be a little sarcasmus involved in the previous statement).
Shrike30
Bone Lacing turns up on almost any kind of body scan. Bone Density Aug is incredibly low profile, by comparison... there's no metal weave, no metal nanothreaded through the bones... just some genetic rewiring and maybe some extra tissue injected here and there that makes your bones denser. That makes it harder to detect, certainly.

Kanada Ten's probably right... this could be a cure for osteoporosis. Or for people living up in orbit, where the low-G causes your bone density to crap out. Bone lacing, on the other hand, is combat gear in the minds of 90% of the people out there (although I could see it having applications in work where people do a lot of heavy lifting, or other things that can eventually put stress fractures in bones, like running).
Squinky
But man, it sure would add weight for those runners....wouldn't know if it would be worth it...heh.
Kyoto Kid
I could accept an "R" legality for Bone lacing.

Implants like Smartlinks are strictly combat ware and they have a Restricted legality rating.
evilgenius
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ May 1 2006, 11:44 AM)
Implants like Smartlinks are strictly combat ware and they have a Restricted legality rating.

I think that smartlinks can be useful for all sorts of non-combat stuff.

Smartlink a trid camera with a cyberarm gyromount so it takes rilly good, stable pictures.

Smartlink your laser designator for land surveying companies.

Also, even for firearms, there are legit uses - hunting, target shooting, personal protection... I mean, in a society that lets individuals pack heat for personal protection, it's in every bystander's and passerby's interest to have those trigger happy citizens as accurate as possible. No?

I have houseruled that plastic bonelacing is only R, not F. The F comes from metal detectors... The Aluminum and Titanium set off metal detectors too often, forcing security pers to strip search people. Inconvenient, and not economical either.
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