I'm going to be starting an online campaign with some friends of mine, and I was looking for some opinions to think on.

Time-frame: 2-3 hour weekly sessions, plus individual character development time as necessary.

Rules adjustments:

- 100 build points (to curtail munchkins)
- Only one six allowed in each category: Attribute, Skill, Spell-Force. (this obviously does not apply to derived/base skills, such as Magic or Essence)
- Canon initiative. (I'm considering capping initiative passes at 2, and converting the third into an "interrupt" or some-such. Or perhaps a combat-skill bonus.)
- Unlimited successes (keep throwing 6's and keep racking up successes.)
- Three starting contacts: 2 randoms, 1 shared between the group to get it started.
- Additional item; special V.R. electrodes/Matrix apparatus. Not as good as Decking but useful to allow non-Deckers a chance.

Thoughts on these rules? Think it'll work?

At only 100 build points there won't be much need for the other caps, as nobody will be able to afford sixes or really high initiative without seriously hampering the character in a lot of other aspects. But as long as the opposition is equally low key and the players don't mind starting so weak it could work.

Of course, just lowering points doesn't really curtail munchkinism, it just means that the munchkin character is weaker. He can still be more powerful than the rest of the group if their minmax skills aren't up to the challenge.

The good parts:

The shared contact. Nothing inherently good about this, it's just a valid way of making sure everyone's in on the same basic stuff.

The… um, canon initiative? If you don't make the change, that is.

Other than that, can you give us some kind of idea what these changes are intended to address? All we've got is "to curtail munchkins", and this is pretty much the worst way to go about it. What is this special matrix apparatus? How do successes accumulate? So on and so forth.

~J

I don't know the SR4 rules but I don't understand what trying to curtail munchkins has to do with making the campaign "flow" better.

I GMed online for years using SR3 and in my experience online campaigns are slow because everyone has to do t3h typing. I'd suggest having one session a week for 5 or 6 hours to give everyone time to accomplish crap instead of two shorter sessions.

Wait, what? Is this SR4? I thought SR4 already had the cap for 6s.

Yeah, it has to be SR3, he mentions spells having Force.

~J

I missed that. Ignore the 100BP comment from me, as I don't know what that'll buy you so I have no idea if it's too high or too low.

Too low. Not the crazy-insane-low total it would be in SR4, but certainly way too low to worry about anyone bothering to play a mage (full mages costing 30 of those 100 points, aspected or adepts costing 25) and thus being eligible to take Spells that might have Force 6.

~J

Also, with a 100 BP limit in SR4 very few character will have any stats higher than 2 and fewer still will have any skill higher than 1.

Limiting BP just ensures more specialized characters. To reduce munchkinism becks is the way to go. It is the least exploitable of all build systems.

Having only 100BP (as opposed to the standard 123-125) will only encourage munchkins to do their worst, because now the only way to have a strong character will be to exploit the rules as much as possible... You can have a munchkin in a campaign of any power level.

On top of that, it's going to hit various archtypes unequally - riggers and deckers will have the easiest time of all, street sams will get screwed, but will at least be able to substitute for lousy stats with chrome, and physads (and most non-aspected magicians, probably) will completely get the shaft.

Have you considered simply not playing with munchkins?

The only way to curtail munchkinism is through strict policing of characters prior to the start fo the game to make sure they're alright. Every system that allows a decent amount of choices can be cheesed.

as to this Additional item are you thinking of trodes as described on page 17 of matrix? or just tortoise mode such as page 42. Incase you don't have that book trodes reduce reaction and initiative but work otherwise like a datajack while tortoise mode is decking without simsense and is severely restricted in speed, sensor, and detection factor.

I don't disagree with you, I just don't consider that a defense of BeCKS.

~J

Okay, few things that were I guess unclear:

Its gonna be one, 2-3 hour long session a week, plus extras.
SR3

The reason for the low skill cap is because those 25 extra points tend to get thrown into skills, and in the end everyone winds up with high firearms, stealth, and ettiqute. I want more specialization, as well as a bit of a growth curve on the munchkins. Since I'll likely be playing with both n00bs and skilled players, there's no way to stop some munchkining, but if its not extreme it allows the n00bs a chance to get skill of their own, rather than just depending on one or two dudes.

A lot of the time those 25 extra points actually get thrown into being Awakened, or an Otaku, or a race other than Human or Dwarf.

That said, while there's some degree to which you can help make a system ungameable, ultimately a rules-based approach to munchkinism is doomed to failure. For all but the most extreme Predator Omega-style munchkins, the rules are their element. Fighting them where they are strongest is at best a waste of energy.

~J

Well said.

Depending on the tone of the campaign, I might even refuse to run with someone that didn't have good stealth abilities.

streetsam with theSkillwires CED combo is the way to munch out thehundred points

30 polints for the million
52 points for stats (6 int 5 qui 3 str 4 everything else)
05 points for dwarf making stats 5 5 5 4 6 5
06 points for main combat skill
06 points for secondary combat skill
01 points for goodlooking and knows it

buy the Skillwires/CED combo and a subdermal pocket, with a datajack in it
get a skillsoft jukebox, place in pocket, and have it connect to the datajack
haqve pocket sealed, they need to surgically open you up to find it

spend half or so of the million on other ware to make you a combat god leaving a couple hundred thousand for skillsofts, and similar for contacts and lifestyle and gear

you will have 6 dice in most skills
your lowest stat is your charisma of 4
as quickness got boosted by muscle toner.

suggested ware (all alpha for the cyber)
dermal sheath 1
kevlar bone lace
smartlink
range finder
cyber ears with bal aug and dampner
the skillwire combo
flare comp
electronic magnification 3
low light vision
essence loss 3.2

bioware
muscle aug 4
cerebral boost 2
enhanced articulation
synaptic accel 1
superthyrhoid gland
synthacardium 2
muscle aug 1
bio index 5.5


final stats

body 6 (9)
quickness 10
strength 7
charisma 4
intelligence 8
willpower 5

Reaction 11
initiative 11 +2D6
magic 0
essence 2.8
bio index 5.5


skills
Unarmed 6(7)
Pistols 6(7)

(skilled chips for just about everything else) 3 with dedicated pools of 3 = 6
except athletics which gets + 3 dice for 9 and -2 TN in most situations

there
see 100 points doesn't stop munchkins

few active skills he did not cheat on
butmany knowledge skills (40 pointsworth)
so he spent most of his time reading andwatchingtrid, then got the skillwires coz his dad had some cashcash

EDIT: Oh james. 7 dice of stealth enough?

Anyone who takes the million should be shot.

wellthere goes my rigger/decker concept where being rigger as well as decker I don't take up half the game time

LOL I don't think any of my players that know the game that well would want to take the million nuyen plunge, for simple reason that they would find themselves either not enjoying the game as much due to their elite skill, or not enjoying the game as much due to the fact that money, in my sick and twisted mind, brings fame - and within two runs their character would be ambushed and smoked

But yeah, resource-restriction is the only way I've thought up to restrict super-generalization.

- Edit to respond to Robin -

Maybe I do! Or maybe I don't want the team Decker to be able to shoot with the accuracy of a street sam? Or for the Adept to be able to computer hack because he had left-over points...

Remembering that a stealth of 3 is average, is it much to ask for a runner to only have 4, rather than 6?

Id post my own reason Ill never let players use BECKS, but hes currently involved in a game over in WttS... mundane human = GODLIKE skills.

But I agree, the lower build cap almost forces you player to be MORE streamlined with his build. There are just some core skills each archtype needs to exist, and another set a shadowrunner needs to live. And stealth, athletics, ediquitte, and a gun skill are the biggies.

Maybe I'm really misconciving things, but I figure the following chain of events always happens in every game.

- Players start off with too many resources, the same 6 points in all attributes and 6 in Stealth, Ettitquite, and Pistols(or SMGS), and therefore the game fails to be fun.


By reducing starting resources, I intend...

- To make the game world a little more "evened out."
- To make those who ultra-munchkinize gain a lot of reputation really fast, so that their prowess is recognized and dealt with accordingly.



Basically its not supposed to be the nicest of games. Its supposed to be a challenge. And yes, I know I'm really phrasing things poorly tonight. Don't ask why, I'd rather not talk about it.

What we are saying is that reducing resources will not even things out. It will, in fact, have the opposite effect.

A 100BP character will still have 6 [weapon skill], Stealth, and Ettiquite (or one 6 and two 5s with your caps) and will still have maxed out stats because it is one of the most efficient builds. However, such a character will have little of anything else because it just doesn't have the points to spare.

You are likely to end up with a team of clone Street Sams who get killed in a shootout with Lone Star when they try to take their assualt cannons on a public bus because none know how to drive.

Keep in mind most of that million was never seen in cash form by the runner I created
A Hell of a lot was a case of job payed for in cyberwear
and a good chunk of the rest went on a dozen or so contacts (mostly level 2 ones)

so yeah he has some fame, and a lot of very loyal friends that would hunt down and destroy the street punk who would geek him for the OMG RICH SHADOWRUNNER1111!!1!1!1!1! LOLOLOLOL I CAN BE RIICH NOW LOLOLOLOL

Whoa whoa, nevermind my post, I was thinking about SR4.

Isn't there a cap of 60 attribute points at character creation?

Anyway, rather than grudge-killing everyone who offends your sensibilities by maxing out their resources, just change the resource scale. Say 30 = 400k, or however much you can accept without feeling compelled to kill the character, and then work out the rest of the scale from there. It seems way too harsh to me, but it's your game, not mine.

For 100 points I like Kremlin's build. I think magic actually is doaable though; you just have to stick to sorcery (so you can dump Charisma and ignore Conjuring). Stunball 6, II 1, PhysMask 1, Heal 3 Exclusive, all the staples, and you can do all the Stupid Spellcaster Tricks at full effectiveness.

+25 Being A Sorcerer
+5 Being a Dwarf

B: 3
Q: 4
S: 3
C: 1
I: 3
W: 7

Sorcery 6

That's 70 BP. Leave your resources low, skip out on Foci, and there's lots of room for customization. I'd want a few more points of Body, Etiquette 1/3, maybe the next 2 points of Intelligence for the spell pool.

In conclusion: yeah, you want BeCKs. Maybe with fewer than 425 base karma, but you want BeCKs.

There's a recommendation to that effect, though not a rule.

~J

*Whips out his old NSCRG*

100 BP

Troll PhysAdept, skill of 6 in Polearms and skill of 3 in Stealth.

12 body, 4 quickness, 9 strength, 2 Charisma, 2 intellegence, 4 willpower.

No edges/flaws...
Not yet taking into account free skills.


----

Kinda looks to me like I got the essentials in. With 5K nuyen and room for further min/maxing via flaws if one desired. My natural reaction score may be low, but that's offset by Reflexes 2. My natural intellegence is low, but I'm a troll. I don't have maxed strength, but I can still probably lift a car. Or at least a motorcycle.

...Okay, so that might count as an improvised weapon. It wouldn't be hard to get a few ranks of skill in that and then use combat pool...



Now, did I expect this to address the issue? Maybe. I don't know, its an idea; in this test-case, it certainly kept the adept from dumping 25 points into cash they can't find a decent way to spend, or skills that would make them general-purpose monsters. Its minmaxed enough that the troll may or may not, given the incredible amount of assistance I've seen even an Armored Jacket give out in my campaigns, assist them in fending off a regular dragon. At 100 BP Chargen. But its vulnerable to enough things to make it possible to take him down.



Oh, and as far as getting 1,000,000, we've always played it that you have to explain in character background where you got it. 1 million is like a few "Hunted" flaws on you, usually - If your runner got it from ex jobs, those ex jobs almost always surface in some way. If he got them it rich background, somehow daddy is going to wind up getting caught at the first slip-up. If its from military improvement, ETC, well there's obviously records of that. It might be a little metagaming, but its also a little sensible that if you kick Renraku's ass around once or twice, they might just find where you live.

But I do confess, its been WAY too long (over 3 months) since I've posted here or been a GM/Player in anything.

"Free skills"?

Other than that, it looks like a pretty mediocre melee Troll. How'd you get 12 Body? Assuming you used an edge, that's 14 points in Body, 10 in Strength, 10 in Quickness, 8 in all the mental stats. That leaves you with…

Seven build points left. As it stands, your Troll has two skill points more than allowable, assuming 0 Resources. If you went with -5 (¥500 nuyen), you've got three left over.

Yeah, I'm not impressed.

~J

In my experience, in SR3, Stealth 5 is the minimum if you want to make a "soft" entry run. Open tests were really a big problem with SR3 IMO.

Here is what I would consider a reasonable background for a char with the million

Maybe I'm simply doing chargen wrong...? But Trolls get +5 body (+ an additonal 1 from Dermal Armor, total +6), and then 6 points placed in body?

I dunno, I just set NSCRG to 100 points instead of 125 and let it flow. That's what I came up with. And 5/3 is pretty...Doable armor, if you use things like cover

I could just have chargen wrong, in which case putting it to 125 would work. I don't know. But I do know that NSCRG provided those results, sooo. *Points at it* Plus, "Free skills" meant knowledges/language, what little he'd get out of it.

Ah, I see re: Body. He's actually got Body 11—the Dermal Armor only comes into play when rolling damage resistance. Regardless, that leaves you with your points spent exactly—and you can barely do anything. Three points of reach and probably an effective 12 dice before combat pool go a decently long way, but then you're looking at only five combat pool dice.

I mean, I agree that it's probably one of the better non-skillwire-whore characters possible under this system—he's just totally one-dimensional and not even that great at his specialty.

~J

Time to go back to old charsheets, yay! *Dance*

Turns out I'm making a little more out of this than I should. Granted, its annoying that everyone is a stealth-whore (4+), pistol-whore (4+), smooth-smooth talker, and some form of expert in unarmed, but other than that the skill overlap isn't so bad. Mostly.

So lets assume I crank it to 125. What can I do (I.E. make harder to get) to prevent over-use of stuff like skillwires, etc? I can assume just saying "no" or raising their avaialblility/cost, but I dunno for sure.

I spent a bit more than half a year working as a CAD operator (with a decent amount of prior experience). Would I be a CAD-whore if I statted myself with AutoCAD knowledge skill at 4+?

~J

Just say no. If something doesn't fit the campaign, don't allow it. Make sure going into the campaign that the players know what things are verboten, and that they're ok with it. Assuming players who want to play the game rather than just twink characters out you should be able to come to some compromise between what they want to play and what they want to run.

If not, find another GM, because running a game you don't want to run is no fun for anyone, and playing in a game you don't want to play just introduces the "chaos factor" where someone says "screw it, this sucks. Let's see what kinds fo trouble I can stir up."

Again, it's ultimately your game. But if your problem is that your munchkins are diversifying too much, be aware that's the exact opposite of the problem most people face. If you could post an example build that's been problematic in the past, or one that you're afraid of, it might help us focus our creativity in more useful ways.

Edit: another way to handle resource inflation is to impose tighter availability limits. Say nothing with Avail > 6 is permitted, instead of Avail > 8 as is the default. You might even be able to go to 4 without forbidding anything fundamental.

Umm, Robin, thank you for assuming the worst intention. Its not to make the characters "weak." I don't disagree that a professional soldier will probably have a pistols of 5. I would encourage that. And if he spent most of his time with an assault rifle in his hands, he'd probably have a 6 in assault rifles.

But cybered-up, Front-line soldiers aren't going to also have a 6 in stealth. And ettiquite. And Computers. And potato peeling.

Similarly, the typical, rookie-runner mage isn't going to have a pistols of 5. She's probably not professional with it. Stealth, maybe; and perhaps a good deal of ettiquite.

Your typical decker? Stealth, Computers, probably some skill in Pistols. But unless a decker has a lot of combat experience under his belt, do you really think he's going to be an outstanding armsman?



I tend to arm their opposition accordingly, and my group tends to come out covered in everyone's blood but their own. A ganger who's been in a few firefights? Pistols 3. Maybe 4. A fair threat to your decker, maybe, but not to your street sam. Just as the street sam shouldn't be able to dump a measely 5 BP into their Computers skill and use their datajack to be a computer-science match against a Decker. Just as your face shouldn't be a same-level boxer as your sam. Just as your mage shouldn't out-talk your face. (How often do I see ettiquite 6 elf mages?)

I've practiced paintball a few times. I'd say I'm -maybe- a level 3 paintball gun shooter. I'd be toasted if I played a pro - there wouldn't be a contest. I'm sort of aiming for that kind of environment; if you take on someone more than 2 dice out of your range in something, there'd be a good chance of losing. Unfortunately I've found that to be easier at the lower dice levels, so that's what I'm trying to create. I could be wrong

(Plus, if I had an open test against 10 guards, I'd probably roll 3 dice and add a +9 modifier to my runner's TN. If you're trying to sneak in the front door of a 10-guarded compound, you're nuts, but not all guards look in the same place at the same time.)

Quite an amusing rant. Thanks for sharing.

EDIT: A post jumped in between this and WR's post so I figured I would clarify that it was directed there, not at frostDPD.

frost: One thing you could do is limit starting skills to one 6 or two 5s max, witht he rest limited to 4. SR4 does it that way and it makes it very unlikely that the face will be able to outshoot the sammie while getting out talked by the mage and out punching the physad.

Can't really say much else that hasn't been pointed out but I will be Mr. obvious right now and point out that the problem with munchkins isn't exactly that they are too powerful, the GM can still own them, its simply that they are more powerful than the rest of the group. So anything you throw to challenge them is going to butcher the other members and a challenge to the rest of the team is nothing to mister munchkin. Again nothing you probably don't already know but with this in mind its clear simply lowering the bp's or restricting all your players isn't going to stop anything.

I usually have a few house rules in my campaigns, ammo comes to mind, but I can't recall a time I ever really put a restriction on regular character creation rules. The best advice I can give man is to just let your players make their characters and see how it works out. It is just a game, there isn't some prize the players are competing for. If you go into this with some huge anti-player mentality your going to find yourself a GM without any players in record time. And if one of them does drop you a pc that is just out of line with what your a looking for explain it to them and ask them to change things. The vast majority will listen.