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GingerbreadMan
Is everyone playing Notoriety and Street Cred via the book rules? I love the idea but itís quite a double edged sword. Too much of either and no Johnson in their right mind will hire you, but you can use street cred to buy off notoriety.

My question pertains mainly to the situation/social modifiers. With a fairly experienced group of characters (some devious, bastards) Iíve managed 9 street cred and 4 notoriety. Do I buy off the notoriety at the sacrifice of my street cred? How long until Johnson stops calling because kids discuss me at the dinner table?

What do you think? Any cool house rules or suggestions?
James McMurray
I dno't like the idea that you can buy off notoriety by losing street cred. How does becoming a better runner by not doing the things that give you notoriety make you less well known? "Sorry guys, you never heard of me, and I certainly never did those things you know I did."

If you want to reset your street reputation, start running again under a new identity or change it over time with different behavior.
Azralon
We play by the RAW's reputation rules in all ways except we don't award Notoriety for Negative Qualities. The forums have discussed this previously, but the quick reason for the exclusion is that it can make a (literally) gimped character have an unreasonable bonus to Intimidate.

When your Public Awareness reaches 3, you've started to get "high profile" enough to where the cops (et alia) have files on you. At this point you had better be prepared for a lifestyle change. So, our current team's philosophy on it is "security through obscurity." Whenever our PA is about to hit 3, taking a -2 to Street Cred in exchange for -1 to Notoriety will knock it back down to comfortably anonymous levels.

I interpret the SC/N bleed off as a combination of laying low and spreading constructive disinformation about ourselves. The more red herrings and blind alleys we give investigators (both legit and shady), the less likely they are to continue effective tracking.

Sure, your reputation gets fuzzier and people are less likely to trust anything they've heard about you; but that can be a good thing.

I should add that some runners would be okay with a high PA. If you're so uber that you're basically a celebrity and you can handle that sort of lifestyle, then knock yourself out. I personally haven't seen it done successfully yet.
Piecemeal
QUOTE
I interpret the SC/N bleed off as a combination of laying low and spreading constructive disinformation about ourselves. The more red herrings and blind alleys we give investigators (both legit and shady), the less likely they are to continue effective tracking.

Sure, your reputation gets fuzzier and people are less likely to trust anything they've heard about you; but that can be a good thing.


welcome to the right answer. last i checked, it wasnt entitled "Smack in the middle of the Limelight Run".
blakkie
BTW if in the future you do manage to keep Notoriety gains below 50% of Street Cred keep in mind that you can buy your Notoriety into the negatives. The math and IC translation of a negative Notoriety was covered in a thread several months back. Here is the start point of that part of the discussion, from about 1 month after SR4 came out at GenCon.
emo samurai
Fake your own deaths. With anthroforms, illusion spells, and easy looting of surgical clinics for tissue to leave around, this has never been easier.
Azralon
QUOTE (blakkie)
BTW if in the future you do manage to keep Notoriety gains below 50% of Street Cred keep in mind that you can buy your Notoriety into the negatives.

You say that as if it were explicitly in the rules.
James McMurray
As far as I can remember, there's no rule for having any rating at negatives.
Azralon
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 18 2006, 05:09 PM)
As far as I can remember, there's no rule for having any rating at negatives.

Yep, that was my point in that old thread too.

As always, feel free to house-rule (or house-interpret) however you like.
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Apr 18 2006, 04:39 PM)
BTW if in the future you do manage to keep Notoriety gains below 50% of Street Cred keep in mind that you can buy your Notoriety into the negatives.

You say that as if it were explicitly in the rules.

I say that as though:

- it doesn't say you can't
- it explains the existence of an otherwise meaningless minimum Awareness of 0
- acknowledging the existance of the negative Notoriety clears up the problem of a really good runner being driven to go out and intentionally "botch" jobs
- as written a character starting with only the Blandness Quality has a negative Notoriety

You can subtact one from your Notoriety for every for ever 2 points of Street Cred you spend. No where is there a zero Notoriety limit on this. No more than it imposes any given maximum limit (although it does make some things tougher the higher you go higher).

Sorry if you don't feel comfortable with it because they didn't drag it up and smack you over the head with it. Just like a negative acceleration and negative velocity makes sense as the result from a physics equation, negative Notoriety allows the rules to make sense.
blakkie
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 18 2006, 03:09 PM)
As far as I can remember, there's no rule for having any rating at negatives.

Read the link. The rule is there, they just don't actually use the words "negative Notoriety" anywhere.
Azralon
QUOTE (blakkie)
Sorry if you don't feel comfortable with it because they didn't drag it up and smack you over the head with it.

I would like to make you and your oft-demonstrated "logic of convenience" comfortable with this 2x4.

Seriously, Blakkie, the existence or nonexistence of negative Notoriety cannot be proven nor disproven until it's delineated in an official FAQ or similiar. Accept that, continue to play as if it exists if you wish, but don't go preaching it as if it were listed in the index.
James McMurray
Am I missing something or is 0 Awareness your only reason for believing it's possible? I didn't read all 4 pages and would rather not. I'm also not looking to argue the point, just wanting to make sure I understand all your points.
emo samurai
How the fuck would negative notoriety work in real life? Would some leprechaun materialize and smack you over the head with a forgetfulness hammer every time you tried to remember something bad about the character?
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 18 2006, 03:31 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Apr 18 2006, 05:23 PM)
Sorry if you don't feel comfortable with it because they didn't drag it up and smack you over the head with it.

I would like to make you and your oft-demonstrated "logic of convenience" comfortable with this 2x4.

Seriously, Blakkie, the existence or nonexistence of negative Notoriety cannot be proven nor disproven until it's delineated in an official FAQ or similiar. Accept that, continue to play as if it exists if you wish, but don't go preaching it as if it were listed in the index.

LOL

No, I can't really "prove" it beyond no doubt any more than prove the falsehood of stuff like this. But don't try to say the rule doesn't exist, or that it isn't entirely reasonable to read it that way.

Oh, and when it is offical to your satisfaction ohplease.gif I want to see some serious groveling. nyahnyah.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 18 2006, 03:33 PM)
Am I missing something or is 0 Awareness your only reason for believing it's possible? I didn't read all 4 pages and would rather not. I'm also not looking to argue the point, just wanting to make sure I understand all your points.

Just go to the link I provided and read the posts down to the end of that page (assuming you are using 25 posts/page).

QUOTE
How the fuck would negative notoriety work in real life? Would some leprechaun materialize and smack you over the head with a forgetfulness hammer every time you tried to remember something bad about the character?


Same here. Read to the bottom of the page from the posts linked. Basically you work so low profile you become a ghost (figuratively speaking) to those outside the shadows.


"The greatest trick the devil ever performed was convincing the world he doesnt exist." - Kizer Soza
emo samurai
You have roamed the board for too long without a nemesis to keep you in check. You're like Lex Luthor without Superman, or Magneto without Professor Xavier. Can I be your nemesis? Or should I call Critias over?
James McMurray
Cool. Thanks.
blakkie
QUOTE (emo samurai)
You have roamed the board for too long without a nemesis to keep you in check. You're like Lex Luthor without Superman, or Magneto without Professor Xavier. Can I be your nemesis? Or should I call Critias over?

Critias as Superman? rotfl.gif More like he's a street rat that aspires to being the dynamic duo's grip and work long hours into the night polishing Robin's armored cod piece to a glistening bat-shine. nyahnyah.gif
emo samurai
So that would make you one of those cod that the Penguin eats.
blakkie
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Apr 18 2006, 03:59 PM)
So that would make† you one of those cod that the Penguin eats.

Perhaps. But you had already placed the Lex Luther mantle upon me, so let's split the difference and compromise to say Mr. Furious? rotfl.gif

EDIT:Oh wait, you wanted to cast me in the role of the villian or the villian's snack. So what about Casanova Frankenstein? cyber.gif You can be The Invisible Boy. James McMurray can be The Spleen. spin.gif
GingerbreadMan
I understand the concept of zero Public Awareness, basically off the radar. But a Negative number?? Wouldn't your contacts stop calling? Would your mamma think you died?
James McMurray
How'd you know my secret identity?
FanGirl
QUOTE (Azralon)
I should add that some runners would be okay with a high PA. If you're so uber that you're basically a celebrity and you can handle that sort of lifestyle, then knock yourself out. I personally haven't seen it done successfully yet.

I think that, as soon as it becomes clear that my character's PA is too high for her to be able to shake off the cops, I'll try and have her commit a spectacular crime, one that captures the public's imagination and transforms her into a celebrity overnight. Then she'll just walk into the nearest Star or KE office and turn herself in. She'll serve out her sentence happily, bombarded both by adoring letters from her fans and requests from trid and simsense studio reps wanting to buy the rights to her story. When (if) she gets out, she'll buy a nice beach house using the royalties from her book deal and live happily ever after.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 18 2006, 11:31 PM)
Seriously, Blakkie, the existence or nonexistence of negative Notoriety cannot be proven nor disproven until it's delineated in an official FAQ or similiar.

Create a fresh character: Notoriety 0.
Take any positive quality influencing Notoriety: Notoriety -1.

Q.E.D.

As that's what the rules state on Notoriety, and the RAW only prevents Street Cred and Public Avareness from dropping below 0, negative Notoriety is valid.
hyzmarca
SO what would Ryan mercury's Notoriary be?
emo samurai
Just fake your own death.
blakkie
QUOTE (GingerbreadMan @ Apr 18 2006, 04:26 PM)
I understand the concept of zero Public Awareness, basically off the radar.  But a Negative number?? Wouldn't your contacts stop calling?  Would your mamma think you died?

Awareness is explicitly limited in the rules to 0. Notoriety is something different. Negative Notoriety offsets portions of the sheer volume of runner's body of work. It is The Greatest Trick Ever Performed.
Voran
A converted char of mine would had a 15 street rep if not for the charisma cap. It did make me wonder a bit if that stuff beyond the charisma cap should still be there. So If I have a charisma cap of 4, I'd only get to use 4 dice, but would have 15 for the purposes of buying off noteriety.

On a side note, I was wondering how many have experimented with multiple street names? It was something I just started doing in early SR3, before the street rep/notoriety stuff, because I wanted to keep a lower profile. Plus it allowed me to pick certain runs that I wouldn't otherwise do under my 'prime' ID.
Azralon
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 18 2006, 07:23 PM)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 18 2006, 11:31 PM)
Seriously, Blakkie, the existence or nonexistence of negative Notoriety cannot be proven nor disproven until it's delineated in an official FAQ or similiar.

Create a fresh character: Notoriety 0.
Take any positive quality influencing Notoriety: Notoriety -1.

Q.E.D.

As that's what the rules state on Notoriety, and the RAW only prevents Street Cred and Public Avareness from dropping below 0, negative Notoriety is valid.

And, as I've implied/said both in this thread and in the one cited from months ago: It's entirely plausible that Notoriety was intended to range from positives to negatives. It doesn't seem to hurt anything for it to drop below zero. I'm personally fine with it to go below zero, and I'm of course fine with anyone playing with it below zero in their games.

My point has been that the existence of negative Notoriety is a derived assumption rather than an explicit one, so everyone should be prepared for the eventuality that it wasn't intended by the developer(s) to work that way.

A negative stat is an oddity in SR4 at this time. No examples or mentions of negative Notoriety are given. One explicit use of Notoriety is to allow GMs to hold munchkins in check; it is never described as a potential bonus to "nice" runners.

These three things are circumstantial evidence that Notoriety is meant to be zero or a positive number, but they are not solid proof against negative Notoriety; just as the two mentions that you can lower Notoriety are not solid proof that it can be lowered below zero.

Again, to be utterly clear: I'm not arguing against the potential existence of negative Notoriety. I'm cautioning people to not make assumptions about yet another unclear element of SR4 and treat it as if it were the RAW.

... And if any of that sounds like I'm being unreasonable, then okay, I'm comfortable with being called unreasonable.
blakkie
WTF? Rotbart van Dainig's post isn't talking about "circumstantial" you wingnut.

QUOTE
It doesn't seem to hurt anything for it to drop below zero.


It certainly leads to wacked situations though if you don't let it drop below zero. nyahnyah.gif
Azralon
Jeez you're predictable.
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 19 2006, 10:33 AM)
Jeez you're predictable.

Yes, when confronted with idiocy i'm quite prone to give it a good, solid, no-holds-barred wack and call it for what it is. Thanks for coming out! wavey.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Azralon)
My point has been that the existence of negative Notoriety is a derived assumption rather than an explicit one, so everyone should be prepared for the eventuality that it wasn't intended by the developer(s) to work that way.

Nope - it's just a mathematical implication, not an assumption.
And, given character generation rules, it is a pretty straight forward one.

BTW, if there's one thing I learned to hate in school, it's assuming shit about 'the intentions of the author' - because, given enough time, this will get you anywhere... just nowhere useful.

QUOTE (Azralon)
Again, to be utterly clear: I'm not arguing against the potential existence of negative Notoriety. I'm cautioning people to not make assumptions about yet another unclear element of SR4 and treat it as if it were the RAW.

Right now, it is the RAW.
Keep your FUD. wink.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
BTW, if there's one thing I learned to hate in school, it's assuming shit about 'the intentions of the author' - because, given enough time, this will get you anywhere... just nowhere useful.

Exactly.
hyzmarca
According to the rule, 0 is neutral. This is only the case on a scale that extends away from zero equally in both directions. Positive Notoriety means people probably don't want to work with you so there must by a negative to represent those runners who everyone is just scrambling to do a job with.

Of course, I would be to apply absolute value of notoriety to PA simply because there are some characters out there, like Ryan Mercury, with Jean-Luc Picard level reputations in spite of the fact that it is such a boyscout reputation that they probably have no trouble recruiting.
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 19 2006, 01:41 PM)
BTW, if there's one thing I learned to hate in school, it's assuming shit about 'the intentions of the author' - because, given enough time, this will get you anywhere... just nowhere useful.

Exactly.

rotfl.gif Ya, so there it is right in the book. Rules that directly result in Negative Notoriety. Only your little grey cells can't seem to wrap around that.
Lagomorph
Negative notoriety can't exist, it actually becomes yestoriety.
Shrike30
Chill out, blakkie.

Personally, I'm gonna go with the Lagomorph Postulate.
blakkie
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 19 2006, 03:19 PM)
Chill out, blakkie.

I blame it on my "see a fool, wack a fool" instinct. nyahnyah.gif If only there was someemo to come to the rescue!

QUOTE
Personally, I'm gonna go with the Lagomorph Postulate.


Well it certainly made me giggle, so it has that going for it. wink.gif
Azralon
Don't bother, Shrike. I don't think he's capable of having a civil disagreement.

Just wait a while and his rabid lack of self-control will get him banned. Again.
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 19 2006, 03:44 PM)
Don't bother, Shrike. I don't think he's capable of having a civil disagreement.

Just wait a while and his rabid lack of self-control will get him banned. Again.

Banned, ever? rotfl.gif For what? Suffering poorly dimwitted blathering? Nope.
James McMurray
Excellent use of verbage, but the technique is getting tired. I'll give that one a 6.3 out of 10.
blakkie
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 19 2006, 04:01 PM)
Excellent use of verbage, but the technique is getting tired. I'll give that one a 6.3 out of 10.

You are Russian, aren't you? smile.gif I'll try work on freshing things up a bit. But in the face of so much stupid in the world it's hard to handcraft every post. nyahnyah.gif I'll take a 6.3 on a lazy Wednesday afternoon.

Besides Azralon's not really giving me a hell of a lot of new material to work with. Well coming up with me being banned is kinda new. I'm not sure where he pulled that piece of brain lint out of.
NightHaunter
I make the players do something that would reduce their Notoriety/Street Cred/Public awareness. Then they can drop the appropriate amount.
I also use Street Cred - Notoriety, as a vague modifier, mostly a multiplier to the basic pay scale.
blakkie
QUOTE (NightHaunter @ Apr 20 2006, 04:53 AM)
I make the players do something that would reduce their Notoriety/Street Cred/Public awareness. Then they can drop the appropriate amount.
I also use Street Cred - Notoriety, as a vague modifier, mostly a multiplier to the basic pay scale.

Encouraging the player to describe how their characters go about that is a great way to put an IC sheen over the numbers. If the player is at a loss for even where to start I'd be inclined to gives examples.The tough part about it though is a lot of things will take a good deal of ingame time to perculate. It isn't really like they pop down to the Stuffer Shack and purchase "respectability in a can".

Unless it's deodorant I suppose. wink.gif
GuyofDoom
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 18 2006, 11:31 PM)
Seriously, Blakkie, the existence or nonexistence of negative Notoriety cannot be proven nor disproven until it's delineated in an official FAQ or similiar.

Create a fresh character: Notoriety 0.
Take any positive quality influencing Notoriety: Notoriety -1.

Q.E.D.

As that's what the rules state on Notoriety, and the RAW only prevents Street Cred and Public Avareness from dropping below 0, negative Notoriety is valid.

Isn't Public awareness an additive score of Street Cred and Notoreity, such that if Notoreity is negative than PA drops below 0 and thus it's a moot point. I was also under the impression that Street Cred was a reward for such and thus was an indication of how "good" you are, while Notoreity is how "bad" you are. So how can you be negative "bad"
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (GuyofDoom)
Isn't Public awareness an additive score of Street Cred and Notoreity, such that if Notoreity is negative than PA drops below 0 and thus it's a moot point.

That would be a reverse. wink.gif

QUOTE (GuyofDoom)
I was also under the impression that Street Cred was a reward for such and thus was an indication of how "good" you are, while Notoreity is how "bad" you are. So how can you be negative "bad"

Street Cred expresses your professional repution, Notoriety your personality profile.
Azralon
QUOTE (GuyofDoom @ Apr 20 2006, 02:18 PM)
Isn't Public awareness an additive score of Street Cred and Notoreity, such that if Notoreity is negative than PA drops below 0 and thus it's a moot point.

Since Public Awareness explicitly can't be negative, that means that negative Notoriety wouldn't be able to bring PA down any lower than zero.

By that reasoning, the saints are less talked-about than the bastards. Historically, the public media demonstrates that pretty well. smile.gif
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