welcome to the right answer. last i checked, it wasnt entitled "Smack in the middle of the Limelight Run".

You say that as if it were explicitly in the rules.

Yep, that was my point in that old thread too.

As always, feel free to house-rule (or house-interpret) however you like.

I say that as though:

- it doesn't say you can't
- it explains the existence of an otherwise meaningless minimum Awareness of 0
- acknowledging the existance of the negative Notoriety clears up the problem of a really good runner being driven to go out and intentionally "botch" jobs
- as written a character starting with only the Blandness Quality has a negative Notoriety

You can subtact one from your Notoriety for every for ever 2 points of Street Cred you spend. No where is there a zero Notoriety limit on this. No more than it imposes any given maximum limit (although it does make some things tougher the higher you go higher).

Sorry if you don't feel comfortable with it because they didn't drag it up and smack you over the head with it. Just like a negative acceleration and negative velocity makes sense as the result from a physics equation, negative Notoriety allows the rules to make sense.

Read the link. The rule is there, they just don't actually use the words "negative Notoriety" anywhere.

I would like to make you and your oft-demonstrated "logic of convenience" comfortable with this 2x4.

Seriously, Blakkie, the existence or nonexistence of negative Notoriety cannot be proven nor disproven until it's delineated in an official FAQ or similiar. Accept that, continue to play as if it exists if you wish, but don't go preaching it as if it were listed in the index.

LOL

No, I can't really "prove" it beyond no doubt any more than prove the falsehood of stuff like this. But don't try to say the rule doesn't exist, or that it isn't entirely reasonable to read it that way.

Oh, and when it is offical to your satisfaction I want to see some serious groveling.

Just go to the link I provided and read the posts down to the end of that page (assuming you are using 25 posts/page).

Same here. Read to the bottom of the page from the posts linked. Basically you work so low profile you become a ghost (figuratively speaking) to those outside the shadows.


"The greatest trick the devil ever performed was convincing the world he doesnt exist." - Kizer Soza

Critias as Superman? More like he's a street rat that aspires to being the dynamic duo's grip and work long hours into the night polishing Robin's armored cod piece to a glistening bat-shine.

Perhaps. But you had already placed the Lex Luther mantle upon me, so let's split the difference and compromise to say Mr. Furious?

EDIT:Oh wait, you wanted to cast me in the role of the villian or the villian's snack. So what about Casanova Frankenstein? You can be The Invisible Boy. James McMurray can be The Spleen.

I think that, as soon as it becomes clear that my character's PA is too high for her to be able to shake off the cops, I'll try and have her commit a spectacular crime, one that captures the public's imagination and transforms her into a celebrity overnight. Then she'll just walk into the nearest Star or KE office and turn herself in. She'll serve out her sentence happily, bombarded both by adoring letters from her fans and requests from trid and simsense studio reps wanting to buy the rights to her story. When (if) she gets out, she'll buy a nice beach house using the royalties from her book deal and live happily ever after.

Create a fresh character: Notoriety 0.
Take any positive quality influencing Notoriety: Notoriety -1.

Q.E.D.

As that's what the rules state on Notoriety, and the RAW only prevents Street Cred and Public Avareness from dropping below 0, negative Notoriety is valid.

Awareness is explicitly limited in the rules to 0. Notoriety is something different. Negative Notoriety offsets portions of the sheer volume of runner's body of work. It is The Greatest Trick Ever Performed.

And, as I've implied/said both in this thread and in the one cited from months ago: It's entirely plausible that Notoriety was intended to range from positives to negatives. It doesn't seem to hurt anything for it to drop below zero. I'm personally fine with it to go below zero, and I'm of course fine with anyone playing with it below zero in their games.

My point has been that the existence of negative Notoriety is a derived assumption rather than an explicit one, so everyone should be prepared for the eventuality that it wasn't intended by the developer(s) to work that way.

A negative stat is an oddity in SR4 at this time. No examples or mentions of negative Notoriety are given. One explicit use of Notoriety is to allow GMs to hold munchkins in check; it is never described as a potential bonus to "nice" runners.

These three things are circumstantial evidence that Notoriety is meant to be zero or a positive number, but they are not solid proof against negative Notoriety; just as the two mentions that you can lower Notoriety are not solid proof that it can be lowered below zero.

Again, to be utterly clear: I'm not arguing against the potential existence of negative Notoriety. I'm cautioning people to not make assumptions about yet another unclear element of SR4 and treat it as if it were the RAW.

... And if any of that sounds like I'm being unreasonable, then okay, I'm comfortable with being called unreasonable.

It certainly leads to wacked situations though if you don't let it drop below zero.

Yes, when confronted with idiocy i'm quite prone to give it a good, solid, no-holds-barred wack and call it for what it is. Thanks for coming out!

Nope - it's just a mathematical implication, not an assumption.
And, given character generation rules, it is a pretty straight forward one.

BTW, if there's one thing I learned to hate in school, it's assuming shit about 'the intentions of the author' - because, given enough time, this will get you anywhere... just nowhere useful.

Right now, it is the RAW.
Keep your FUD.

Exactly.

Ya, so there it is right in the book. Rules that directly result in Negative Notoriety. Only your little grey cells can't seem to wrap around that.

I blame it on my "see a fool, wack a fool" instinct. If only there was someemo to come to the rescue!

Well it certainly made me giggle, so it has that going for it.

Banned, ever? For what? Suffering poorly dimwitted blathering? Nope.

You are Russian, aren't you? I'll try work on freshing things up a bit. But in the face of so much stupid in the world it's hard to handcraft every post. I'll take a 6.3 on a lazy Wednesday afternoon.

Besides Azralon's not really giving me a hell of a lot of new material to work with. Well coming up with me being banned is kinda new. I'm not sure where he pulled that piece of brain lint out of.

Encouraging the player to describe how their characters go about that is a great way to put an IC sheen over the numbers. If the player is at a loss for even where to start I'd be inclined to gives examples.The tough part about it though is a lot of things will take a good deal of ingame time to perculate. It isn't really like they pop down to the Stuffer Shack and purchase "respectability in a can".

Unless it's deodorant I suppose.

Isn't Public awareness an additive score of Street Cred and Notoreity, such that if Notoreity is negative than PA drops below 0 and thus it's a moot point. I was also under the impression that Street Cred was a reward for such and thus was an indication of how "good" you are, while Notoreity is how "bad" you are. So how can you be negative "bad"

That would be a reverse.

Street Cred expresses your professional repution, Notoriety your personality profile.

Since Public Awareness explicitly can't be negative, that means that negative Notoriety wouldn't be able to bring PA down any lower than zero.

By that reasoning, the saints are less talked-about than the bastards. Historically, the public media demonstrates that pretty well.