Full Version: Movement Adept
I was going to add EA, but it turns out that for one extra die, it's kind of a lot of BP. Plus, y'know. Something to work towards.
| QUOTE (Dissonance) |
| Athletics Group 4 [...] Improved Skill: Gymnastics 4 Improved Skill: Running 3 |
Since with the athletics group on 4 the two skills gymnastics and running are also at this rating, you can just increase them by a maximum of 2 points through the adept power(errata says: Improved skill maximum level = skill level / 2, rounded down). You've got 0,75 points free, then. How about 2 levels in improved jumping?
I, too, think that the converted adept powers are not even close to being abusive.
The name "Jackrabbit" is not very innovative, especially in shadowrun. Named after a vehicle, this can not only cause complications but is somewhat ridiculous, considering what of a pitiful device a Jackrabbit is.
You will surely find a better one. Grasshopper?
Be careful, though. A character who defines through his weapons/abilities is in danger of ending up flat like a sheet of paper, maybe with one of the usual shadowrun backgrounds.
Just to keep safe, I always create the character and his background first, then go for the numbers.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| keep in mind that a movement-type mystic adept is a) more vulnerable than a normal movement adept, because many of his abilities can be easily destroyed, and b) spread more thinly than a normal movement adept, because he has to buy a lot more in the way of skills, spells, and foci. |
Hey, are you kidding? Did you even read the post through which you accused me of leaving the topic(which I, admittedly, did)? If done properly, as I explained to Shrike30, your weaknesses vanish. Noone will touch your spells, unless they want to suffer serious drain and in more than 95% of the cases end up doing nothing to you except damaging themselves and wasting a complex action for that.
You are totally right with b).
I still ended up with a well rounded shaman who only has small "movement" parts in his concept.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| The last people you need to convince of what a true Abomination of Nature a mystic adept can be are mfb and myself. |
Hehe, that's why I won't play one of those in SR4 again.
Didn't know that about the Improved Skill limitation. I thought it was only limited by magic and the total skill max, so that's something new on me.
As for the name? I completely forgot about the car. Want to keep with the rabbit theme, though, so I might go with Snowshoe or something. Not really all that important, as I don't have a campaign to put her into just yet.
Two points of jumping would be appropriate, along with maybe another enhanced sense power.
As for determining the background and character? I generally create those somewhere between deciding what I want to do and roughing out some rough stats. I generally let one tweak the other as I figure out other details.
---
I won't deny the potency of the mystic adept who basically rides spirits for the movement power. It's just that that kind of thing, while tough to cripple, is _still_ susceptable to outside interference. And _especially_ vulnerable to wards. An adept is self-contained.
Also, I think I need to lay off the Green Arrow kick. I was thinking of exploding arrows while cleaning up after dinner.
As for the name? I completely forgot about the car. Want to keep with the rabbit theme, though, so I might go with Snowshoe or something. Not really all that important, as I don't have a campaign to put her into just yet.
Two points of jumping would be appropriate, along with maybe another enhanced sense power.
As for determining the background and character? I generally create those somewhere between deciding what I want to do and roughing out some rough stats. I generally let one tweak the other as I figure out other details.
---
I won't deny the potency of the mystic adept who basically rides spirits for the movement power. It's just that that kind of thing, while tough to cripple, is _still_ susceptable to outside interference. And _especially_ vulnerable to wards. An adept is self-contained.
Also, I think I need to lay off the Green Arrow kick. I was thinking of exploding arrows while cleaning up after dinner.
I suggest enhanced smelling. Noone other(except other adepts who like this idea ) has this power, and you can trace someone simply by his smell. As it says in the description, like a bloodhound. Vision magnification, enhanced vision, all available through contact lenses or glasses, same for hearing.
I really find enhanced smelling such an underrated power. Since I saw a wolf adept(you know shaman adepts from SotA '64) with it in SR3, I am totally fascinated by it. That's tracking, D&D style.
Wards are a tough point for a mystic adept(now that I managed to understand that "wards" are "Hüter" in german). I remember that in SR3 most spells simply crushed wards, when cast at a decent force, but I am not yet familiar with the SR4 wards. If it works the same and wards are limited to the user's magic rating, even the spell of a force 3 spirit will most of the time crush the master mage's wards.
My ape shaman has his detect magic always "on", so he won't walk blindly into them.
) has this power, and you can trace someone simply by his smell. As it says in the description, like a bloodhound. Vision magnification, enhanced vision, all available through contact lenses or glasses, same for hearing.I really find enhanced smelling such an underrated power. Since I saw a wolf adept(you know shaman adepts from SotA '64) with it in SR3, I am totally fascinated by it. That's tracking, D&D style.
Wards are a tough point for a mystic adept(now that I managed to understand that "wards" are "Hüter" in german
). I remember that in SR3 most spells simply crushed wards, when cast at a decent force, but I am not yet familiar with the SR4 wards. If it works the same and wards are limited to the user's magic rating, even the spell of a force 3 spirit will most of the time crush the master mage's wards.My ape shaman has his detect magic always "on", so he won't walk blindly into them.
Well, wards are an interesting little thing in SR4. I haven't really looked at the mechanic, but the act of collapsing a ward will ALWAYS alert the mage on duty.
Furthermore, there's the little something about dual-natured people getting in contests with wards.
If you get in a contest with a ward while dual natured, and fail, you are disrupted. That means you take full stun damage. Bam. Out cold.
You are dual natured while using astral perception.
This applies to situations where you are 'forced' against a ward, like in an elevator.
Which is why I would put wards in an elevator if I were evil.
But back to the smell thing? That's a neat idea, and it gives me one extra way to detect people.
Furthermore, there's the little something about dual-natured people getting in contests with wards.
If you get in a contest with a ward while dual natured, and fail, you are disrupted. That means you take full stun damage. Bam. Out cold.
You are dual natured while using astral perception.
This applies to situations where you are 'forced' against a ward, like in an elevator.
Which is why I would put wards in an elevator if I were evil.
But back to the smell thing? That's a neat idea, and it gives me one extra way to detect people.
Wards have to be grounded on solid objects(solid in the physical realm), and if the elevator is not passing through a very solid, physical wall(without breaking it, since the ward would break in this case, too), this technique won't work.
The alerting case is a point. Drawback to mystical movement adepts(or shamans!), finally.
The thing about the astral perception is interesting. Well, I have avoided astral perception always if possible. With detect magic you notice just as much, and if something interests you, you can check it out.
Smell is the ultimate way to detect people. Since this power seems to be rather unknown, there are not any countermeasures mentioned. Noone cares about his smell. And if he is using perfume on the run to hide his smell, you notice that, as well.
You can set up wards and astral barriers, but no "smell barriers". At least finding someone won't be a problem ever again for you.
The alerting case is a point. Drawback to mystical movement adepts(or shamans!), finally.
The thing about the astral perception is interesting. Well, I have avoided astral perception always if possible. With detect magic you notice just as much, and if something interests you, you can check it out.
Smell is the ultimate way to detect people. Since this power seems to be rather unknown, there are not any countermeasures mentioned. Noone cares about his smell. And if he is using perfume on the run to hide his smell, you notice that, as well.
You can set up wards and astral barriers, but no "smell barriers". At least finding someone won't be a problem ever again for you.
The walls of the elevator shaft are physical. And the fact that they take up cubic space suggests that they could cover something like a doorway. Otherwise, you could only ward solid structures, and there wouldn't be much sense in having rules for dual natured interaction with wards.
In fact, the elevator example is in the book.
Page 186 in the English version.
In fact, the elevator example is in the book.
Page 186 in the English version.
Okay, read it. That contradicts itself, kind of. But the cubic range will be right. Let's have fun smashing wards, then, shall we?
Just remember that they smash back, right?
The way I read it? The ward itself has a physical component and an astral component. The physical component sticks it to something, while the astral component manifests outward from that.
The closest analogy I can think of is is a grenade. The grenade is the physical part, while the ward is the blast radius. Except, in this case, the grenade has to be immobile.
The way I read it? The ward itself has a physical component and an astral component. The physical component sticks it to something, while the astral component manifests outward from that.
The closest analogy I can think of is is a grenade. The grenade is the physical part, while the ward is the blast radius. Except, in this case, the grenade has to be immobile.
You mean they smash indirectly back by alarming the mage?
For high society mages, this could be a very big problem.
"Sorry, I am not able to go any further."
"The restroom's just over there, sir."
"I fear I will crack the magic defenses of the building if I move even one step into this direction. I will have to sleep under that nice bridge over there."
The radius makes sense to me now. They are not much of a threat for any serious magician, either way. They just hinder you if you want to cast right through them or send a spirit to search. That's what they are meant to do, I think. Oh, yeah, and they give alarm. If I would play a hermetic, I would still seal my whole house except for a tiny passage which is watched over by some spirit of mine.
For high society mages, this could be a very big problem.
"Sorry, I am not able to go any further."
"The restroom's just over there, sir."
"I fear I will crack the magic defenses of the building if I move even one step into this direction. I will have to sleep under that nice bridge over there."
The radius makes sense to me now. They are not much of a threat for any serious magician, either way. They just hinder you if you want to cast right through them or send a spirit to search. That's what they are meant to do, I think. Oh, yeah, and they give alarm. If I would play a hermetic, I would still seal my whole house except for a tiny passage which is watched over by some spirit of mine.
Agreed. They're not too difficult to make, and they provide astral security that's on par with having a subterranean house.
And while it's not so much an issue in _this_ version? Hermetic circles and shamanic lodges were free wards.
And while it's not so much an issue in _this_ version? Hermetic circles and shamanic lodges were free wards.
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| Hey, are you kidding? Did you even read the post through which you accused me of leaving the topic(which I, admittedly, did)? |
honestly, i expect that to get nerfed in some future errata. it's horrifically abusable.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| honestly, i expect that to get nerfed in some future errata. it's horrifically abusable. |
Yes. Do not step over the gunbunny-line and you are fine.
no, nothing wrong with playing a mage or a mystical adept. but being able to summon and bind a force 11 spirit out of chargen, so it can sustain force 22 spells? that's... a bit much. granted, it's almost even odds that you'll just plain die when you try to summon it, but still--the abuses possible with that are almost beyond comprehension, the sort of thing i'd expect from a character with karma in the high hundreds.
though, come to think, if one guy can summon a force 11 spirit, there's no reason to not expect to run into force 11 bound spirits on every run. once your one spirit meets up with two opposing spirits, you may no longer be the One.
though, come to think, if one guy can summon a force 11 spirit, there's no reason to not expect to run into force 11 bound spirits on every run. once your one spirit meets up with two opposing spirits, you may no longer be the One.
I never was the One, and we did meet a force 13 fire spirit on a run. It was not amused when the whole team fired with stick-n'-shock and aimed shots at it. Although it could dodge the first few shots(and some just had no effect), the next soon hit and its downfall began. And we had no uber characters among us, the half even played archetypes from the core book.
That was when I realized big spirits are not invulnerable anymore.
Also I doubt many mages have the background to even dare binding such a mighty spirit.
But I admit that you can do the same kind of abuse with a magic 6 shaman/hermetic buying spirit services from the start with GP. Noone will try to banish those with 18 die resisting spells.
That was when I realized big spirits are not invulnerable anymore.
Also I doubt many mages have the background to even dare binding such a mighty spirit.
But I admit that you can do the same kind of abuse with a magic 6 shaman/hermetic buying spirit services from the start with GP. Noone will try to banish those with 18 die resisting spells.
Bypassing 13 armor with stick and shock? I'm guessing lots and lots of fire coming it's way, most of it burst?
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Bypassing 13 armor with stick and shock? I'm guessing lots and lots of fire coming it's way, most of it burst? |
Six people, 3 with the Fubuki(only short bursts of course), one with a Mossberg(he was the slowest one and did the killing blow with a long burst), one with two SMGs(long bursts all the way, split dice pool), one with an AK97(do not remember what he did, I think he messed up about the recoil rules and fired only single shots). Two of the Fubuki guys(one of them being not a guy, but a girl) split their dice pool since they double-weilded them, to decrease his defense pool.
Wow, that really was epic action. I admit I missed both bursts with my Fubuki.
In Ultima Online parlance, that'd be equivalent to a Moongate Gank. [/nerd]
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| That was when I realized big spirits are not invulnerable anymore. |
...well, um, why do you expect the force 11 spirit sustaining your levitation and other spells to not get ganked? that's what i meant when i said that your movement mystic adept was more vulnerable than a straight-up movement adept. obviously you're able to accomplish more in the way of movement--while your spirit is still alive. once it goes down, you're pretty much not a movement adept anymore.
And, again, if you go the spirit-levitation route? You honestly don't even need to be awakened. You just need to have a buddy who is willing to conjure you up some stuff in exchange for being, say, a vehicle mounted weapon with three dimensional movement.
Heck, as long as somebody else does this stuff for you, you could basically be a troll sammie with all of .5 essence left and _still_ be a Gummi Bear in terms of movement, re: Bouncing Here and There And Everywhere.
Heck, as long as somebody else does this stuff for you, you could basically be a troll sammie with all of .5 essence left and _still_ be a Gummi Bear in terms of movement, re: Bouncing Here and There And Everywhere.
I believe he was having the sustaining spirit not be anywhere near the spell being sustained, making it much harder to kill.
@mfb: I would call that... Damn, english term missing. When a gamemaster just does something to piss you off(seemingly). Like, suddenly a failed attempt to attack the white house leads to a rocket blowing up the team's van.
If it would fit the story, okay. E.g., big war between the spirits of men and beasts, your spirit takes part and is killed.
Some magician wanting your spirit dead would have to pass an astral quest to just face the spirit. When thinking in SR3 terms, even with a force 6 spirit, level 6 astral quest... None of my characters would have risked that.
If it goes down, though, you really aren't a movement adept anymore. That's why this technique only costs 10 GP on character creation, fewer with own spirit summoning materials and summoning/binding during game.
[edit]James is right.
Spirits want to be on their home planes, at least most shamans would leave them there as long as they are not needed.[/edit]
@Dissonance: You... could. Yeah. Your gamemaster will probably will forbid that. :x
If it would fit the story, okay. E.g., big war between the spirits of men and beasts, your spirit takes part and is killed.
Some magician wanting your spirit dead would have to pass an astral quest to just face the spirit. When thinking in SR3 terms, even with a force 6 spirit, level 6 astral quest... None of my characters would have risked that.
If it goes down, though, you really aren't a movement adept anymore. That's why this technique only costs 10 GP on character creation, fewer with own spirit summoning materials and summoning/binding during game.
[edit]James is right.
Spirits want to be on their home planes, at least most shamans would leave them there as long as they are not needed.[/edit]@Dissonance: You... could. Yeah. Your gamemaster will probably will forbid that. :x
Undeadpoet: Spiteful?
...wait. you're suggesting that a bound spirit can provide the sustaining service while it's sitting on a metaplane somewhere? that's... wow. i don't know if the rules currently allow that or not. but if they do, that is so getting errata'd.
178 says that the spirit can provide a magical service while remaining in astral form, but I figure that means they're just hanging out on the lowest of magical planes. The one that everybody (magical) can access with the least amount of difficulty.
| QUOTE (Dissonance) |
| 178 says that the spirit can provide a magical service while remaining in astral form, but I figure that means they're just hanging out on the lowest of magical planes. The one that everybody (magical) can access with the least amount of difficulty. |
Wait, is there no Astral Plane in SR4? In SR3, the spirit could perform Mana based powers on astral targets or the summoner (through the link), while in astral form - but they still had to be present on the Astral Plane.
astral form is a whole different animal from being on the metaplanes.
and waitaminute. there are other serious flaws, here. for one, you expend a service for each turn that a spirit sustains a spell, unless you use spell binding--in which case, the spirit loses a point of force per day. you're going to be summoning force 11 spirits once every week and a half, minimum, which is going to kill you pretty quickly. for another, the force of the sustaining focus (or spirit) has nothing to do with a counterspelling test. the mystic adept cast the spell in the first place, so the mystic adept is the one whose magic is used in the counterspelling test. you can have a force 100 spirit sustaining your spell, and it won't do you any good--counterspelling tests are made against your magic, not the spirit's.
and waitaminute. there are other serious flaws, here. for one, you expend a service for each turn that a spirit sustains a spell, unless you use spell binding--in which case, the spirit loses a point of force per day. you're going to be summoning force 11 spirits once every week and a half, minimum, which is going to kill you pretty quickly. for another, the force of the sustaining focus (or spirit) has nothing to do with a counterspelling test. the mystic adept cast the spell in the first place, so the mystic adept is the one whose magic is used in the counterspelling test. you can have a force 100 spirit sustaining your spell, and it won't do you any good--counterspelling tests are made against your magic, not the spirit's.
Right. They're on the astral plane. They have to be astrally present, I think, or, well. If you wanted to do it the way I envision magic, you could use one as a sympathetic link for the other, as they are connected to each other via bonding. So even if the spirit was just chillin' in the east indies while you're running in Seattle, you could still zap the spirit with a manabolt if you can see the mage, albeit maybe at a penalty or something.
But I'd personally rule that you can't use the Extra Special Benefits via remote service, but instead staying within the however many meter limit.
But I'd personally rule that you can't use the Extra Special Benefits via remote service, but instead staying within the however many meter limit.
see my edited post above for more holes poked in this tactic.
| QUOTE (Dissonance) |
| Undeadpoet: Spiteful? |
If I could translate this word, maybe.
| QUOTE |
| you expend a service for each turn that a spirit sustains a spell, unless you use spell binding |
If you cast a spell and "hand it over" to the spirit to keep it sustained, that is. From using their own spells and abilities they do not even suffer penalties(the usual -2 is ignored), but can't sustain more abilities at once than their own force.
| QUOTE |
| counterspelling tests are made against your magic, not the spirit's. |
Counterspelling tests are made against the specific spell, using the force+the caster's magic(I am talking of banishing a spell. If you meant counterspelling to defend an enemy spell, you are right, but that has nothing to do with the topic
). If you order your spirit to do it for you, the spirit's magic is used.| QUOTE |
| They have to be astrally present, I think, or, well. |
We discussed that on a german board along with fanpro moderators. The answer is they can do whatever they want, the line of sight has only to be maintained while casting the spell. As long as the summoner does not demand it, a spirit is naturally on its home plane.
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| If you cast a spell and "hand it over" to the spirit to keep it sustained, that is. |
that's what your initial post said you'd be doing. if the spirit is casting the spell for you, yes, you counterspell against the spirit's force + spell's force.
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| he answer is they can do whatever they want, the line of sight has only to be maintained while casting the spell. |
that is so insane my eyes are bleeding from reading it. it is what we like to call "broken", and makes me happy(er) i don't play SR4.
| QUOTE ("mfb") |
| that's what your initial post said you'd be doing. if the spirit is casting the spell for you, yes, you counterspell against the spirit's force + spell's force. |
Oh, I excuse for those misunderstandings, but I never meant it to work in this way. Can you tell me the passage so I can correct it?
| QUOTE ("mfb") |
| that is so insane my eyes are bleeding from reading it. it is what we like to call "broken"[...]. |
That is what I have been trying to tell you.
And that is why I use it to make my face shaman playable in our action campaign. My gamemaster has not forbid it me, though, due to the fact that he is somewhat experienced and knows he is designing the campaign more in their favor and I will have less opportunities to use the natural abilities of my character.
So I am not left behind. We both hope that noone of them discovers this abuse possibility.
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| Second, cast levitation on yourself, maybe use a sustaining focus on a low level(3 on chargen possible) and cast the spell into it. |
right there.
it's way, way too abusable. if the world turns upside down and i run an SR4 game, my first act as GM will be to nerf spirit summoning; my second will be to state that LOS must be maintained for spirit-sustained spells. i might allow a spirit to scamper off to the metaplanes if it's sustaining/binding a spell that the summoner himself cast, since the duration on that is so short. but on spells the spirit itself casts, nuh-uh.
edit: actually, i take that back. my first act will have something to do with technomancers, possibly involving burning.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 22 2006, 03:20 AM) |
| my first act will have something to do with technomancers, possibly involving burning. |
It is indeed best to nerf the possibilities of abusing spirits. I would not nerf the summoning ability, though. An average (PC) mage rolls his drain with 8-12 die, just as his summoning test, which can with some luck result in binding a mighty spirit, but can just as well let him enjoy a drain that drops him unconscious if he gets too daring.
By the way, the levitation indeed has to be cast by the mage himself, so he keeps control over the spell. Of course a spirit casting it on him would speed him up beyond anything reasonable, but to use this or change direction in his flight, he would have to advise the spirit every single time to do it for him.
If he casts the spell on himself, he can control it at will. Even the most intelligent spirit won't move him in the exact way he wants it to.
As I answered Shrike30, levitation is the most vulnerable part in the combo, but if you cast it with force 3(in the sustaining focus force 3 available on character generation) and use all edge up, you can also get some nice results. A good anti-magic user will banish you some successes off, so you need to stack yourself up with them.
Did someone mention yet that you can only use on point of edge for your spellcasting or summoning test ?
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| Did someone mention yet that you can only use on point of edge for your spellcasting or summoning test ? |
Cool, did not know that. On which page is this mentioned?
Page 67, under the heading 'Spending Edge'.
| QUOTE |
| No more than 1 point of Edge can be spent on any specific test or action at one time. |
I think more about the Astral Plane will come out in the Magic expantion book.
@Butterblume: Cool, noone in our group has noticed that so far.
@TMBRMInsanity: Yes, but I doubt there will be a sudden ruling that needs all spirits to stay in the astral plane if they sustain a spell.
@TMBRMInsanity: Yes, but I doubt there will be a sudden ruling that needs all spirits to stay in the astral plane if they sustain a spell.
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