Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: an old edge/flaw in the new game.
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
fool
An edge and its corresponding flaw that I've ported into the new game is
SOTA= 10 points for every level you take it,you can buy equipment with an availability 2 higher than normal.
LOTEK= -10 for every level that you take it, the availability of equipment that you can buy is reduced by 2
Young Looking= -5 or 10 (not sure which) These characters liook too young to be taken seriously... the thirteen year old girl who is a killer hacker, the geeky kid mage whatever. they have a hard time in certain social situations, bars etc. this of course can work to the characters advantage in other situations, who expects a thirteen year old to be casing a joint... but it doesn't last usually past the first encounter. This can also be assigned to characters without any bonus buikld points if they're actually quite young.
Shrike30
I'd make being young be a larger flaw than being young looking. One requires a fake ID to get around, the other is just annoying.
FanGirl
It would be interesting if a Seductress shaman took this edge/flaw.

Shaman: Are you sure we couldn't work something out? I mean, if you can feel me--

Guy: Hey, get offa me! I'm not into jailbait!
Nasrudith
Young looking needs to have some sort of restriction based on body or strength. After all how many 10 strength young looking trolls are there?
emo samurai
QUOTE (FanGirl)
It would be interesting if a Seductress shaman took this edge/flaw.

Shaman: Are you sure we couldn't work something out? I mean, if you can feel me--

Guy: Hey, get offa me! I'm not into jailbait!

AGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!! *Tears rivers of blood down cheeks in the hopes the pain will make him forget*
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Nasrudith @ May 9 2006, 12:58 AM)
Young looking needs to have some sort of restriction based on body or strength. After all how many 10 strength young looking trolls are there?

with steroids abuse, maybe a lot more then you think...

hell, isnt there a kid that if you didnt see his face and had a size refrence you would swear is the next mr. universe?

if a person had the "young looking" flaw, i would hazard that his nickname is babyface nyahnyah.gif (ie, head large for the body, roundish, and for males, clean shaven without a indication of aftergrowth).
FanGirl
QUOTE (emo samurai @ May 8 2006, 07:10 PM)
QUOTE (FanGirl @ May 8 2006, 04:24 PM)
It would be interesting if a Seductress shaman took this edge/flaw.

Shaman: Are you sure we couldn't work something out?  I mean, if you can feel me--

Guy: Hey, get offa me!  I'm not into jailbait!

AGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!! *Tears rivers of blood down cheeks in the hopes the pain will make him forget*

indifferent.gif mmmkay then. . . .How do you tear a river? Aren't rivers supposed to be liquid?

And yes, the little dialogue was horribly, horribly cheesy, but there's nothing wrong with that . . . .Is there?

EDIT: Maybe "cheesy" isn't the problem. In fact, I'm not sure what your exact issue is with that post. Care to elaborate?
hyzmarca
Yes, there is. Everybody is into jailbait. Those who say they aren't are liars. It is simple evolutionary psycology. Younger individuals have a better chance of producing more and healthier offspring. And age of consent laws are inately wrong in much the same way as laws permiting slavery and taxation without representation are.

Of course, the chances of Age of Consent laws remaining in the UCAS rather than falling by the wayside on the route to political progress is quite low. Homosexual polygamous marriage is legal. Homosexual polygamous marriage to someone undeer the age of 18 probably is, too.

We've actually have threads about this before. Age of Consent laws should be limited only to the most sexually conservative of jurisdictions
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Those who say they aren't are liars. It is simple evolutionary psycology.

You know, some people have a fetish for old people. Evolutionary psycology is an interesting idea, but if social pressures prevent you from enjoying something, it doesn't make you a liar. Guilt is evolutionary, too.
hyzmarca
Many people have fetishes for many things. Having a fetish for dogs doesn't prevent one from enjoying the company of humans and having a fetish for old people doesn't prevent one from enjoying the young.

And it is possible to lie to oneself. Also, while ephebophilia is currently classified as a paraphillia many within the psycological community feel that it should be regarded as a mainstream sexual practice instead.
FanGirl
hyzmarca, in response to your concerns about the morality of age of consent laws, I would just like to say that I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with sleeping with someone below a certain numerical age. Sure, I feel it's generally best that people try to follow the law, but I also feel that the only kind of "underage" sex that's morally wrong is the kind where the one partner is exploiting the emotional immaturity of the other partner--not necessarily his or her numerical immaturity.

Of course, people have the right to their own opinions on the subject, and they have the right to express those opinions--just like "Guy" does in my short dialogue. Notice that I don't make any specific judgments about Guy's morality; I just have him make an explicit statement about his sexual preferences. I don't even suggest whether or not he's telling the truth about his preferences, or indeed whether the Seductress Shaman is below the "age of consent." In fact, if the shaman were above the AOC (which is quite possible, since I've deliberately left it up in the air), then Guy's fears of "robbing the cradle" would be completely unfounded.

I guess the crux of what I'm saying is that it's morally okay to make up characters whose opinions happen to be different than your own, and that's why there's nothing wrong with my dialogue. biggrin.gif
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 8 2006, 09:38 PM)
And it is possible to lie to oneself.

And if you convince yourself that you don't enjoy something, then you don't enjoy it, and therefore aren't lying anymore.

My point is that society is a product of evolution, and if a society that enforces age of concent grows, then age of concent becomes part of evolutionary psycology. With the technology and society we have today, the age of the mother is less important - even adding benefits to age of concent.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Shrike30)
I'd make being young be a larger flaw than being young looking.  One requires a fake ID to get around, the other is just annoying.

...The original Violet in SR3 had it. Really made it hard to set up meets since most usually happen at clubs or bars. Also it happened to get one player in the group (out of character mind you) perpetually torqued off at her.

Won't be taking it again.
Kyoto Kid
The old flaws I would like to see come to SR4 are:

Phobia

Distinctive Style (or something similar as the opposite to Blandness)

Hunted

Hung out to Dry

Flashbacks
Dranem
QUOTE (FanGirl @ May 8 2006, 05:24 PM)
Guy: Hey, get offa me!  I'm not into jailbait!

Thing about this is that your average 18 year old elf probably only looks to be a 13 or 14 year old human... so now we have to define what 'looks like' jailbait. wink.gif Unless you see the person's ID, there's some times no way to tell.
Kremlin KOA
Dranem that is true today
I have met 21 year olds that look prepubescent
and 13 year olds who look 20
I always check ID now
Nasrudith
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
The old flaws I would like to see come to SR4 are:

Phobia

Distinctive Style (or something similar as the opposite to Blandness)

Hunted

Hung out to Dry

Flashbacks

Well here's two of them.

Phobia: A character with this has a severe fear of something. They will not willingly approach it without making a composure test (4). If it's forced onto them they will try to resist reguardless of it's logical effects.
Example: George is deathly afraid of doctors. He will resist being healed despite the six boxes of physical damage.
Bonus: 10BP, for uncommonly triggered phobias. 15BP for commonly triggered phobias, 20BP, for phobias of hospitals, or medkits.

Distinctive Style: Something about this character sticks out like a sore thumb, maybe their too tall or short, have distinctive markings, their fashion sense is unique. Anyone attempting to shadow or phhyscially locate them through social means or even slightly crowded rooms results recieves a +2 bonus to locate them.
Bonus: 10 BP
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 8 2006, 09:38 PM)
And it is possible to lie to oneself.


My point is that society is a product of evolution, and if a society that enforces age of concent grows, then age of concent becomes part of evolutionary psycology. With the technology and society we have today, the age of the mother is less important - even adding benefits to age of concent.

But that isn't really true. Age is still as important a factor as it once was and lessened fertility due to increased age can only be remedied with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of medical procedures. Of couse, even the best medical care can't mitigate the fact that increasing age leads to increasing genetic mutations which can cause serious genetic diseases in offspring. Also, pregnacy at a young age decreases the risk of devolping breast cancer later in life. Does anyone want to have breast cancer? Sue, it can be treated with surgery and radiation but that is a whole lot of trouble to go through.

But more importantly it would take tens (if nor hundreds) of thousand years of enforcing an age of consent with deadly consequences for natural selection to select against ephebophilia in a sizable population.


----
Sea Madness has always been an interesting flaw. Free points for the landlubber, at first, but eaily exploitable by a cruel GM.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ May 9 2006, 04:31 AM)
QUOTE
Those who say they aren't are liars. It is simple evolutionary psycology.

You know, some people have a fetish for old people. Evolutionary psycology is an interesting idea, but if social pressures prevent you from enjoying something, it doesn't make you a liar. Guilt is evolutionary, too.

heh, here is how i think it works (personal opinion all the way).

young females will have a longer time where they can give birth and so on.

a older male indicates that he have the genetic structures to better survive.

therefor the best natural combo is a old male and a young female.

cue lolita...
James McMurray
I think the best natural combo involves me and a young female. My wife may disagree.
Big D
Surprised you didn't mention harems, there...
Kremlin KOA
good point
for my DNA to have the best chance of living forever a harem of young femaes is my best shot
Kanada Ten
Young mothers don't have fully developed rational thought, are less educated, and generally have a smaller pool of resources to draw from in order to raise a healthy child. They are even less likely to raise a child that becomes a benefit to society, and less likely to themselves become benefits to it - thus society discourages them. I was reading a really great blog based on the psycology of the human "hive" mind just yesterday (*Stephen Kosslyn).

However, with cosmetic surgery, hormone control, genetic engineering, and elves; someone's taste in sex can be accommodated easily, without removing consent laws (imagine legal concerns beyond just sex). After all, we're not really trying to reproduce anymore so the appearance of youth can actually be more satisfying than the real thing.
fool
ya know, i never realized just how quickly a thread could veer totally off in another direction. Of the 20 odd posts on this topic (edges and flaws) maybe 5 were about the positive and negative qualities.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ May 9 2006, 03:36 PM)
Young mothers don't have fully developed rational thought, are less educated, and generally have a smaller pool of resources to draw from in order to raise a healthy child.  They are even less likely to raise a child that becomes a benefit to society, and less likely to themselves become benefits to it - thus society discourages them.

All of these facts are the result of society's discouragement, not the cause of it. This is obvious when observing societies that do encourage individuals to start families at an early age. Support networks such as extended families and friends easily counterbalance any lack of financial resources when it comes to child-rearing but modern Western society has seen fit to tear down these support structures brick-by-brick and replace them with ineffectual and costly public programs. Education can be dealt with simply by making education more accessible to young parents. Experience shows that regimented education systems are less effective than flexible alternatives for all concerned and changes that would make education available to more parents would also make it more effective for everyone else. Less developed rational thought may just as well be an effect of the social juvenilization of society. At one time, in some societies are considered to be adults at very young ages and are given adult responsibilities at very young ages. Historically, these individuals are no less reasoned or competent than people who become "adults" at 21. In fact, it seems that individuals who are treated as adults at an early age are more responsible later in life that the perpetual children of today's Western societies do.

There is also the matter of population maintainance to consider and the economic impact of a growing retired population with fewer young workers to replace them.
Currently, most European countries are experiencing fertility rates that are below the replacement rate. In other words, population in these countries is dwindling because not enough individuals are being born to replace those who have died. The United States exists at slightly above replacement fertility only because of the unusually high incidence of teenage pregnancy due to worse-than-useless abstinence only sex education.

Of course, a slowly dwindling population may not be such a bad thing on its own. There are six billion people in the world. Plenty, some might say. If we could half that in a generation it wouldn't be so bad. However, we can't half that in a generation because the older generations will still be around. And the previous generation will retire around the time the new one enters the work force. And it is here you have the problem.

The One-Two-Four problem is especially obvious and dangerous with China's restrictive reproduction policies but a milder form will come to pass in every part of the industrialized world fairly soon. Given average life expectancy, average age of retirement, and average retirement income the average only child born today will have to provide financial support for 6 adults soon after entering the workforce.

Even at replacement fertility rates, 100% employment rate, and with ample social programs to ensure the welfare of retired persons, it is a fact that each working individual will have to support three retired individuals since Social programs are funded with the worker's tax dollars and retirement funds are paid for with their labor.

Raising the retirement age can help with this problem but it is ultimately insufficient and leads to elderly people who are physically unable to work being without financial support because they weren't old enough to retire. Putting a red crystal in the back of everyone's right hand at birth is another potential solution but it is a bit draconian and few people would consider supporting it. The most economically reliable solution is to ensure a sufficient workforce by encouraging and rewarding teenage pregnancy.

With the exception of hysterical Malthusians who seen deadly overpopulation where there is none those who deny that it can be good for teenagers to have children are both shortsighted and willfully ignorant of the vast majority of human history.
Kanada Ten
The vast majority of human history has led to consent laws.

QUOTE
The United States exists at slightly above replacement fertility only because of the unusually high incidence of teenage pregnancy due to worse-than-useless abstinence only sex education.

Immigration, actually, not teenage pregnancy.

QUOTE
All of these facts are the result of society's discouragement, not the cause of it.

And what led to society's discouragement?

QUOTE
At one time, in some societies are considered to be adults at very young ages and are given adult responsibilities at very young ages. Historically, these individuals are no less reasoned or competent than people who become "adults" at 21. In fact, it seems that individuals who are treated as adults at an early age are more responsible later in life that the perpetual children of today's Western societies do.

Care to offer anything like evidence for this? History doesn't seem to agree, in any way, at any time. Children at War, for example, don't grow into well reasoned adults.

QUOTE
The most economically reliable solution is to ensure a sufficient workforce by encouraging and rewarding teenage pregnancy.

No, not at all. The most economically reliable solution is to vat grow babies and require people raise them. [e] The whole argument is implausible anyway, it's like saying we shouldn't allow women to be successful because they are less likely to have children.
emo samurai
A whole page of stuff edited for misunderstanding.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ May 9 2006, 05:21 PM)
The vast majority of human history has led to consent laws. 
 

That assumes that history is evolutionary rather than revolutionary. There have been many backslides in human social order. the Dark Ages are one such example. The current trend to treat anyone under 30 as mentally feeble is but another example of such drastic mistakes.

QUOTE
And what led to society's discouragement?


Idiocy, pure and simple. Persons are smart. People are stupid. And on any such emotionally charged issue many, many stupid people will chime in. The resulting cacophony drowns out all rational dissenters.

It began with prudish Victorian attitudes towards sexuality, which led to the use of various draconian methods to prevent so much as masturbation from minors. This included, but was not limited to, infibulation and clitoridectomy.
This anti-sex prudishness continued on until the Babyboomer generation came of age an became hippies. unfortunately, the free love hippie movement lost its steam as the Baby boomer generation grew over and they tended to become over-indulgent conservatives, a very odd combination indeed. Yet, their indulgent conservativism led to the desire to protect people from themselves, including protecting teenagers from their natural physical desires.



QUOTE
Care to offer anything like evidence for this? History doesn't seem to agree, in any way, at any time. Children at War, for example, don't grow into well reasoned adults.


Adults at war don't grow into well reasoned adults. Because 5-year-olds don't react well to conditions that would inflict post-traumatic-stress disorder on most battle-hardened adult soldiers is not a good reason to assert that teenagers should be treated like gilded mockingbirds.


QUOTE
 
Immigration, actually, not teenage pregnancy. 


I was unaware of the fact that many women gave birth to immigrants. I was referring specifically to birth rates. Immigration, while nice, cannot be used as a reliable way to maintain the working population of an independent nation. It is a great supplement and I am certainly in favor of immigration without limits, but the problems of such dependance should be obvious.


Emo: Mechanization is great for the CEO who can fire two-thirds of his workforce and triple his salary but it doesn't help the people who are not being paid because of it. It doesn't matter how many people can be serviced if no one has the money to pay for these services. We produce enough to provide for everyone now but some people still go hungry because they don't have the money to pay for food that simply rots on the store shelf.


And when did I say anything about traditional families? I believe never. I did mention the extended family as an example of a support structure but that is all. No, what I wrote was that expecting people to be mature produces maturity. Expecting them to be immature produces immaturity. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The point isn't that traditional families should be encouraged. The point is that teenagers should be allowed to have sex if they want to and not be metaphorically stoned to death for it as is common now. My point is that if you don't treat people with respect and dignity, even people under the age of 18, you shouldn't expect them to act in a dignified manner.

I'm all for progressive free love hippy communes. I'm all for house-husbands breastfeeding the baby while mommy works at her high-priced law-firm. What I am against is denying people freedom of choice and freedom of opportunity just because we know what is best for them . In the long run, adults know what is best for teenagers just like Hitler knew what was best for the Jews.

As for the rocks comment. I agree. Humans are just biological machines designed to perpetuate themselves. We have become very good at it but sometimes we et in our own way. Of course, this self-perpetuation isn't limited to biological procreation. It can include intellectual procreation as well. But, when all is said and done, without sustained biological procreation all intellectual creation will fade into dust.

As for my culture, I was born and raied in the United States. Personally, I am not at all conservative. I am libertarian pseudoanarchist, to be honest. I do see the usefulness of brutal totalitarian dictatorship when it comes to getting the important things done and that would be a perfered mode of government if I were at the top, although in a very lazie-fair way. I do believe that, asside from what is necessary to maintain independence and quality of life, a do-as-you-please anarchy is probably the preferable social construct. However, if you are going to support freedom you shouldn't do it half-assed. You shouldn't say that there is a portion of the population who are slaves for no other reason than their age.
emo samurai
Or the Germans.

Your clarification runs counter to what I thought you did. But if you're worried about distribution of wealth, then quasi-socialism is really the answer, not depleting the earth of undeveloped land.

And even if one-child-per-couple keeps on through the rest of human history, I don't see the human race dying out with the population halving every generation simply because there is a fuckload of people.

And how does rampant procreation improve intellectual development?
James McMurray
Before entering into a sociological discussion with hyzmarca, one should be aware that his answer to avoiding gang violence as a 12 year old white kid in little mexico is to have your rich daddy buy you a gun and then move to a utopia.

You've been warned. smile.gif
emo samurai
I remember. Making sure the gangsters around you are on the ground instead of you and all that. DUR.

How is he so retarded about sociology but is still able to argue rationally about this game?
Kanada Ten
I think we're arguing different points then. I'm not saying teenagers should be treated like babies, but I don't think treating them as fully reasoning adults makes any more sense (hell, treating most adults as fully reasoning is futile - that's why we have society). Allowing adults to procure younglings as breeding material has never shown benefits to society

QUOTE
It began with prudish Victorian attitudes towards sexuality, which led to the use of various draconian methods to prevent so much as masturbation from minors.

No, actually, consent laws begin long before this. They are already fully formed by Aristotle, at that time making those under the age of majority property of their father - unable to give consent or dissent.

QUOTE
No, what I wrote was that expecting people to be mature produces maturity. Expecting them to be immature produces immaturity.

Bull. This isn't about expectations, it's about reasoning. Expecting adult level reasoning from under 14 year olds is nonsense. Punishing immature behavior in these ages does make sense, enforcing rules of adults on immaturity does make sense, and teaching through example does make sense.

QUOTE
I was referring specifically to birth rates.

Last I checked, teenage pregnancy among non-immigrants did not give a positive growth rate in America. It is only because of immigration that America has a positive growth rate. We're currently at 1 percent growth with an estimated fertility rate of 2 (2 children per family). That doesn't mean teenage pregnancy isn't helping keep that number up.

However, it does mean that our society doesn't give an incentive to people to have children once they think rationally. Unplanned pregnancy is not a sign of a good parent in the making.

QUOTE
The current trend to treat anyone under 30 as mentally feeble is but another example of such drastic mistakes.

Untrue. The current trend in America is to treat 9 year olds as cold blooded killers.

[e]
QUOTE
Health Risks of Early Pregnancy
When a woman is too young, pregnancy—wanted or unwanted—can be dangerous for both mother and infant. Complications of childbirth and unsafe abortion are among the main causes of death for women under age 20.  Even under optimal conditions, young mothers, especially those under age 17, are more likely than women in their 20s to suffer pregnancy-related complications and to die in childbirth.

Note that a large percentage of this is due to first birth, but not all, not all by far. It also doesn't seem to change between societies from West Bengal, India to those in the US.
FanGirl
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 9 2006, 07:15 PM)
In the long run, adults know what is best for teenagers just like Hitler knew what was best for the Jews.

May I draw your attention to Godwin's Law and reductio ad Hitlerum. I believe you have officially lost, hyz. wink.gif

What's more, I understand that Hitler and the Nazis never claimed to want to "do what was best for the Jews" anymore than someone who hires an exterminator wants to "do what is best for the bugs." They wanted the Jews annhilated, plain and simple. I don't think that most parents want to wipe their children from the face of the earth, so your analogy is a false one.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
No, what I wrote was that expecting people to be mature produces maturity. Expecting them to be immature produces immaturity.

Bull. This isn't about expectations, it's about reasoning. Expecting adult level reasoning from under 14 year olds is nonsense. Punishing immature behavior in these ages does make sense, enforcing rules of adults on immaturity does make sense, and teaching through example does make sense.


Reasoning is a skill that is honed with practice like any other. You might as well say that math shouldn't be taught in schools since children can't do math at an "adult level" and then expect them to magically perform calculus at 18. The only way they''ll learn is through practice and the sooner they begin practicing the more and the faster they'll learn.

The fertility rate in the United States is 2.8, slightly over the replacement rate.
emo samurai
I don't think he's against children learning; just not in a way that impairs them permanently, like having a child.
Geekkake
This argument is boring. I like banging the shit out of young girls.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Reasoning is a skill that is honed with practice like any other. You might as well say that math shouldn't be taught in schools since children can't do math at an "adult level" and then expect them to magically perform calculus at 18. The only way they''ll learn is through practice and the sooner they begin practicing the more and the faster they'll learn.

Nonsense, again. You're suggesting that we trust reasoning on them while i'm suggesting we teach it to them. You're expecting a 13 year old to perform calculus without training while I'm having her work at a tested level (average will be trigonometry).

QUOTE
The fertility rate in the United States is 2.8, slightly over the replacement rate.

What's your source? I was looking at UNICF data for 2004, which could be wrong. But:

QUOTE
CDC
On the basis of 2003 birth rates, U.S. women have an average of 2.0 births during their lives. The total fertility rate (i.e., the estimated average number of births per woman in a lifetime, based on the age-specific birth rates observed in a given year) varies by state, ranging from 1.7 in Vermont to 2.6 in Utah. In 2003, the District of Columbia had the lowest rate at 1.6. Rates were lower in the northeastern states and higher in the southwestern states.


QUOTE
This argument is boring. I like banging the shit out of young girls.

How young? Seriously, cosmetic surgery, even genetic engineering, androids, and so on... How necessary is it that the girl actually be young rather than appear in all ways young?
Geekkake
God, can't get the quote takes to work.

I completely agree with Kanada Ten's opinions on modifications regarding the subject. I just found the argument boring, and decided to toss something out there to divert people.
emo samurai
Why couldn't it be something funny and stupid, like Mechashiva?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ May 9 2006, 08:22 PM)
QUOTE
Reasoning is a skill that is honed with practice like any other. You might as well say that math shouldn't be taught in schools since children can't do math at an "adult level" and then expect them to magically perform calculus at 18. The only way they''ll learn is through practice and the sooner they begin practicing the more and the faster they'll learn.

Nonsense, again. You're suggesting that we trust reasoning on them while i'm suggesting we teach it to them. You're expecting a 13 year old to perform calculus without training while I'm having her work at a tested level (average will be trigonometry).

Biology would suggest otherwise. If anything, the curriculum is too lax in this case. If intellectual and emotional matruity do not match biological maturity in the average individual then someone has gone very wrong somewhere. While it is biology that is at fault in some cases, such as precocious puberty, in many cases it is emotional and intellectual conditioning that is at fault.


My source is the CIA, although I was using 2005 numbers. It has gone up a point this year.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...r/2127rank.html

I assume that the CIA would know snce they put microchips in our water to keep track of these things.

And to bring us back on topic, a nanotech tracking implant would make a great flaw. It would, of course, fall under the old Mysterious Cyberware flaw but it would have the advantage of not costing essence. Whereever and whatever you do you go they will know it. Whoever they are.
James McMurray
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I assume that the CIA would know snce they put microchips in our water to keep track of these things.

I'd LOVE to see a source for that!
nick012000
I'd have never put you as a pedophile, hyzmarca. Pedophilia is evil. People who support it are evil. People who commit it are evil. Death is too good for them. If I could find you, I'd castrate you without a second thought.
James McMurray
I personally would never trust a 13 year old to make any rational decisions. Having been a thirteen year old myself, and knowing what I know aboutthe ways the thirteen year old mind can work, especially when there's a booby around, I'd rather see people mature a little physically before entrusting them as heads of state (or even heads of households).

That said, there are some incredibly stupid things in our (USA's) laws concerning "legal adulthood." The biggest of which is also the most widely mentioned: why can someone fight and die for our country at 18 but can't have a beer until 21?
James McMurray
QUOTE
And to bring us back on topic, a nanotech tracking implant would make a great flaw. It would, of course, fall under the old Mysterious Cyberware flaw but it would have the advantage of not costing essence. Whereever and whatever you do you go they will know it. Whoever they are.


I think you're bringing us back to the wrong "on topic." wink.gif
hobgoblin
ye gods, talk about lighting a fuse...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nick012000)
I'd have never put you as a pedophile, hyzmarca. Pedophilia is evil. People who support it are evil. People who commit it are evil. Death is too good for them. If I could find you, I'd castrate you without a second thought.

Love of Children? Not at all. If I ever expressed my views on infanticide that would become obvious. However, I support basic human rights and do not believe that they should be denied to anyone for any reason unless the human in question annoys me personally. Problems arise when people refuse to treat children and teenagers like actual human beings (Columbine, anyone?). I don't see any point in dehumanizing the young in order to protect them from themselves. If they make mistakes then they make mistakes. Everyone has to learn somehow and experience is the very best teacher.
emo samurai
Not... not like THAT...
Kanada Ten
Ranked 131: United States 2.09 (children per mother) 2006 est from your CIA. Below 2.1 is not considered growth, from what I understand. [e] I'm too lazy to look it up again, but pregnancy among teens was on a decrease the last three years, while the rate of many STDs was constant. I can find it again if you care, but it does show that abstinence teaching isn't working at all (duh). For the record, I'm not talking about limiting teenage sex. I'm talking about limiting dominate matures from wasting salvageable human production units. And I can't believe you'd bring up Columbine and Hilter in the same thread.

QUOTE
Biology would suggest otherwise. If anything, the curriculum is too lax in this case. If intellectual and emotional matruity do not match biological maturity in the average individual then someone has gone very wrong somewhere. While it is biology that is at fault in some cases, such as precocious puberty, in many cases it is emotional and intellectual conditioning that is at fault.

Back this up with something. I've already shown that pregnancy under 17 is high risk, and I can probably show it creates more "emotionally immature" children with a few links - but it's your turn to do more than talk.

QUOTE
The only way they'll learn is through practice and the sooner they begin practicing the more and the faster they'll learn.

The human mind developes based on the needs of the person. If some one is taught multiple languages they have a better chance of learning it at a young age; the speed of this development happens in stages, slowing as the child grows older. Practice causes improvement - but it also takes resources of the mind, narrows the development field. The more things pushed onto children cause less absorbtion of all. Adding sex and pregnancy to a pre-14 year old schedule only lowers their ability to grow into cognitive adults.

There is no evidence that allowing adult-adolescent sexual relations benefits anyone; you haven't shown any, at the very least.
James McMurray
So 2.8 (the original number given, said to be for 2005) + 1 (the one point rise specified by the link to the source) = 2.09? That must be hyzmarca math. rotfl.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (FanGirl)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 9 2006, 07:15 PM)
In the long run, adults know what is best for teenagers just like Hitler knew what was best for the Jews.

May I draw your attention to Godwin's Law and reductio ad Hitlerum. I believe you have officially lost, hyz. wink.gif

Hyperbole. Besides, this isn't Usenet.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
So 2.8 (the original number given, said to be for 2005) + 1 (the one point rise specified by the link to the source) = 2.09? That must be hyzmarca math. rotfl.gif

I missed a zero. Sue me. With this craptastic computer I have you're lucky that I didn't miss a 2.




QUOTE

Back this up with something. I've already shown that pregnancy under 17 is high risk, and I can probably show it creates more "emotionally immature" children with a few links - but it's your turn to do more than talk.


Okay then.

http://www.soton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/20...ov/05_206.shtml

Sexual maturity is designed by nature to coincide with the level of psycological maturity required to function in society. That that is not the case today is the fault of society. Coming from the assumption that a 14 year old does not have the skills to fully function in a modern industrial society one can still assume that a 14 year old has the maturity to function in a hunter-gather society, which includes the maturity to make basic reproductive choices.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012