And that's what you get from gathering physics info from the movie Eraser, the movie where the recoil from that gun if it functioned as explained in the movie, could launch the shooter literally into low earth orbit if he shot it at the ground, and the physics worked as they do in the real world.

A gauss gun is the same as a coil gun. A coil gun is functionally very similar to a rail gun except that in the coil gun the projectile never physically touches the "barrel" where in a railgun it does, and a coilgun is a series of sequencial electromagnets whereas the railgun is two long rails that create a current when the projectile makes a current between them. They are both just forms of magnetic acceleration.

www.rollette.com/railgun
"A railgun is a single-turn coil consisting of the power source, rails, and armature. The armature is free to slide along the rails, the Lorentz force causes it to slide along the rails, away from the power source."

http://www.oz.net/~coilgun/home.htm
"It accelerates a piece of iron or steel down a tube. The tube runs through a series of electromagnetic coils (like solenoids). There are no sparks or noise or impressive side effects (or parts to wear out). Some careful timing circuits energize each coil in sequence. The principle of magnetic attraction draws the projectile along at rapidly increasing speed."

Yep. Same effect, but railgun sounds cooler (IMO).
Besides, there are certain points where it no longer matters how fast the projectile is travelling, it's going to blow apart whatever it hits from the sound waves travelling behind it if nothing else.
I don't remember the movie Eraser because I never saw it, and if it contains the information you claim it does, I don't think I'll ever spend my time watching it.

~J

Eraser was actually entertaining as a film, as long as you ignore the Hollywood physics.

Which is true of almost every Hollywood venture.

-Siege

Bit, I never want to hear you accuse ME of blurring the line between the real and fantasy! =)

Eraser was not my only source, but it was the most visible and memorable source. I do not suggest seeing the movie for any other reason though. It wasn't that good.

My friend is running a regular 'space game' (his creation; he has yet to name it...) and has hinted at Gauss Gun tech where they accelerate particles (not a solid slug). I get most of my info from him on that. I'll be sure to let him know how you guys feel. =)

Gauss guns do have one advantage over railguns, mentioned earlier: their projectile doesn't touch anything. Railguns can get well over the speed of sound, but the rails will wear out and need replacement (the faster the projectile, the faster this will happen), while on a gauss gun, if everything goes right the only things to accrue wear and tear will be the capacitors, battery, and whatever gets hit by the recoil.
However, for in-atmosphere uses, they're nigh-identical.

~J

hehehe

Incidentally accelerating particles in that fachion is pretty much the definition of a PPC or Particle Projection Cannon, or Particle Beam. See "Ghostbusters" for reference

<pleasant computer voice>

Orbital Ion Cannon charging...

</pcv>

To begin: The naval rules were -FIRST- written for Cyberpirates. You know, that nice, 1997 book (between R2 and SR3) where you go around stealing tankers, merchant ships, coast guard cruisers, and the like? And if you are stealing those ships, it naturally follows that you are going to be facing off against the militaries of the nations you are stealing from -- thus the naval rules, which represent modern naval combat decently well... As in, high on missile combat, and actual naval gun use has fallen to defensive measures.

With R3, they expanded the naval rules to cover MBT's and other land-based installations, due to their size. If a Shadowrunner sees these, 9 times out of 10 they are dead.. and that last time they should have some way to disable them.

So, to the subject at hand, from the top.

I need to begin simply: My books are at home. my memory is shaky in places, but I think I can get my point across in the end.

Weapons do damage based on successes, we all agree to this, right? staging works at 0/+1 is standard damage, with +2/+3 is one higher, and so on, and -1/-2 is one lower, and so on.. So if the attacker gets 5 successes, and the defender gets 5 as well, the damage is the standard code -- and if the defender gets 6, the weapon is staged down a level.

Now, with ranged combat, this works until you hit D or no damage -- and then you stop. the rolls have already been made and compared, so how can you mod them? In my mind, I usually always make sure to roll attack and defense relatively close, so that I don't get into the habit of thinking high dice counts = more damage done.

Earlier, someone asked if there was a way to make combat do more damage than 10 boxes, ignoring the deadlier over-damage rule (which, for the completely insane, would apply to naval weapons. Just think 'bout that for a bit. ). I will easily say that ranged combat cannot do more than 10 boxes at a time... But keep reading, as there is a caveat.

What about close combat? This is somewhat different, as it represents an abstract. the first roll determines simply who gets the advantage that exchange -- the attacker or the defender. Due to the ability to add physical force, not to mention close-in skill of where the attack comes in (and a poorly placed block by one or the other), you -do- get to stage up power on these.. Again, established earlier in the thread. However, if the power gets staged up, the defender does -not- stage down the power before staging down damage. (I would've continued with an example, but I am shaky here. )

so earlier, I asked for a caveat, and for people to keep paying attention. Here's why:

When you take deadly damage, you go into trauma. When you are in trauma, you are taking additional damage every (body) rounds, up to (body). You can stave this off a few ways, either by slowing it or stabilizing it through first aid, or magic, but it is still present.

So yes. Without deadlier over-damage, you can only take 10 boxes at a push. But then, if you are an average human, and barring intervention, you will take another wound 9 seconds later. Then another. Then another. Then you're dead. No turning back. And there, my friend, is how you take more than 10 boxes with the standard rules.

Athenor

PS: See the above example? I would -HIGHLY- recommend that none of you Otaku-types take a body of 1... think about it for a while.

Bod 1 is actually a good choice for an Otaku. 4 karma later they've got 4 seconds for someone to help them out, and in the meantime they've got all sorts of other bonuses that help keep it from ever being an issue.

~J

Just clarifying, cuz it kinda got chopped up.

But I'll take that deadly naval + falling damage bonus of 50+ KM anyday, wouldn't you? Or at the least, I'll apply B-tech's orbital bombardment rules.

Athenor

I don't know. Think about what I Ion weapon would do to your cyberware...

I'd rather get shot. Well, maybe not...

You've got a lot of choices, all of them bad.

~J

Very true.

Here is an off the wall question... Could you dodge an energy, rail or gauss shot?

I don't believe so. Naval damage rules are area-effect, so you'd have to apply the rules for dodging a grenade blast. Which, of course, bases your TN off of the power that hits you, IIRC.

OTOH, naval weapons cannot target individuals... Your car is fair game, of course.

Athenor

Naval weapons don't need to target an individual. Just sorta obliterate the general area, it's ok, we don't need it anyway.
As for dodging gauss/railshots, no more than you can dodge a bullet. Dodging is entirely a matter of making sure you're not where the shooter was aiming.

~J

Kag, I was thinking that the speeds involved in those particular weapons would work against dodging...

Just remember, metahumans have a signature of 6, while trolls have a 5. -1 to that for more than 3 points of essence used and another -1 for each two nanite systems. They sure can shoot you, and if you're a toaster the TN is sickly low =)

"An offshore shelling today occurred and was apparently aimed at Bob. Bob could not be reached for comment"

Yes, you were, but the thing is that at close range there isn't much difference in terms of dodgability between a bullet travelling at about the speed of sound and a depleted uranium slug shot through a coilgun. You might be able to get your center of mass .01mm more out of the way, but it's insignificant. Even at long range we're not talking much difference at all.
If the projectile is moving and heading on a collision course, it's going to hit you anyway.

~J

Yeah, most people glaze over the fact that you CANNOT actually dodge a bullet. What you CAN do, and what is done in shadowrun is you need to not be precisely in line with the end fo the barrel when the bullet is fired. THis entails moving out of the way BEFORE the gun goes off. Yes, you dodged the bullet but only because you forced the shooter to miss, not because you actually DODGED the bullet.

On the other hand, if you get move-by-wire 4 and L4 Muscle Toners, come back and we can talk about actually dodging bullets.

~J

[doctor evil voice]
How about ...no...\
[/doctor evil voice]

Remember, when dodging bullets, always try to dodge up, because if you duck you're limited to a max speed of 9.81 m/s^2 unless you've got something to pull yourself down with, while your speed upwards is limited only by how well you jump.
And then get angry at your GM for declaring that you exploded from moving too quickly.

~J

"Meet my friend, Mr. ANDREWS. He'd like to say hello to your helicopter."

~J

Throwing in 2 ....

The way I've always run it is this:

• attacker makes "to hit" roll
• defender makes dodge test
• remaining net successes stage the damage
• damage is resisted

So, for example, Dick has his 9M heavy pistol and is firing at Jane. He gets 3 successes . Jane makes a dodge test and gets 1 success. This results in 2 net successes which stages the damage to 9S. Jane then resists that damage rolling her body against a TN of 9-ballistic armor. We'll say she has a better than average armor rating and gets 4 successes resulting in a light wound (every two success stagest the damage down by 1 level).

As for the over damage rules: they're optional IIRC. I've always felt that they were added to allow for healing time. I generally use the house rule that if you take deadly damage in one shot (like getting hit by an assault cannon) then you are dead. No overdamage, no healing, do not pass go, do not collect 200 . To me, this represents a luck head shot, a good shot to the gut, etc. If you take damage up to deadly over the course of a number of wounds that are not at the D level, then you do get overdamage. This represents falling into uncociousness after suffering extreme physical trauma; you're bleeding to death and if no one helps you soon, you'll die.

The only issue I've ever had with that interpretation is it generally helps the players kill things easier than I can hurt the players. I suppose, however, that depending on their opposition, that should be the case since the players are outfitted and built more powerfully than your average person.

-- Dashifen --