Would it be possible to have monowire underwear? If they try to get them out of their way their fingers land on the ground.

Every woman should have a troll named Bubba following them around. This troll would have a constant headware commlink singal with that woman. His (or her) job is to listen to her mental dialogue when she's saying No. If she really means it, he lets the guy know.

This would have two primary benefits. One, you're gonna know if she really means "no," Two, lots of trolls get jobs, but only if they're willing to change their name to Bubba.

Likewise, every man could have a troll named Babette following him around with the same setup. We could give every dog and cat a barghest or hellhound gaurdian with behavioral modification cyberware keyed to the sexual hormones of the gaurdian.

On the original topic: education and "keep it in your pants" would fix everything. Unfortunately as others have said it isn't always possible. I personally feel that someone without that amount of self control should be locked away until their psyches are repaired, but the only way to know they lack that control is to have it actually happen, which doesn't prevent the rape. It might prevent future rapes.

Who's going to protect the trolls, then?

Plus, I bet that it would get very confusing if there were a bunch of trolls with the same name walking around. I know that my great-great grandpa had problems because of this: his original name was Carl Carlson, but then he joined the Swedish navy and found that there were so many guys who were also named Carl Carlson that he had to change his last name in order to avoid confusion. Then again, we also have plenty of Mr. Johnsons running around, so maybe Bubbas wouldn't be all that much of an adjustment. It's an interesting concept.

I also think the monofilament panties idea is cool, though I doubt that monofilament clothing would be very comfortable to wear.

Duh buh wha?

The fact that it isn't a justifiable defense doesn't mean it isn't true, people.

~J

while i agree that it might be possible to prevent some rape by providing counselling to men (or boys, rather, as it's easier to teach kids), in the end, the only person really responsible for your safety is that you.

It's very easy for even the most watchful person to be caught off gaurd by someone who turns out to be dangerous. This is especially true of the person doesn't think they're dangerous and is convinced that what they're doing is right for the situation. It's impossible to pickup on signs of deception when there's no deception being done.

I do agree with you that safety is the primary concern of the person involved, but it isn't always possible. Even Snow Fox and her gun could be caught off gaurd and raped in the right (or should I say wrong) circumstances. Both sides of the fence need to be covered.

To use the animal analogy: we should tame the animal while also teaching the person how to behave around animals.

agreed. but in the end, society is not and cannot be directly responsible for your personal safety. i think that if someone is truly interested in not being raped (or otherwise having their personal safety assaulted), they ought to take measures so that the many cases where proper self-defense could change the outcome of a bad situation, they'll have the tools at their disposal to do it.

especially if they want to perform such hare-brained activities as saying 'no' to a drunk person of the opposite sex while continuing to be sexually flirtatious with them.

hmm, i think maybe i should start using a metal walking stick from now on. allways handy for beating someone up with, and will not scream weapon like a knife or gun...

And it does not change the fact that the ultimate blame falls on the man who did it.

Sure she is stupid. She is more at risk than a woman who stays home. But ultimately it falls on the sexist pig that thinks it is an invitation to violate her.

i'm not saying it does. and i'm not saying that i would take that invitation. but it is an invitation.

Ok boys and girls, lets simmer down now. No sense geting another semi-topical thred locked because of flameing.

On that note however, Im fully in support of Bubba the Troll safty.

I should include him in my campaign!!!

I beileve I've seen emntion of Bubba the Love Troll around here. You may want to do a search on that. Having Love Trolls and antirapist trolls both named Bubba could cuse some amusing confusions. Well, amusing from the outside. Probably not all that amusing to the participants.

"Hey Vinnie. I need Bubba to go to the club with my daughter. Bobby said he was really good so I'd like the same one he used." Unbeknownst to Daddy bobby has strange sexual tastes. His referral was talking about the troll he sends out with his wife, but Bubba Inc.'s operator doesn't know. :0

Let me put mfb's example in a different context.

If some rich guy is slumming in the bad part of town, flashing his stacks of cash and expensive jewelry, is anyone gonna feel sorry for him if he gets mugged? Probably not. Did the mugger committ a crime? Most certainly. Is the rich guy a victim? Most certainly. Should the mugger get prosecuted and sent to jail/prison? Most certainly. Did the Rich guy's stupidity contribute to him putting himself in a situation that allowed him to easily be victimized? Most certainly.

I have two daughters, and I make it a point to educate them on how to protect themselves and not get into bad situations in the first place. I belive that THEY are responsible for keeping themselves safe when I'm not around.

I think people need to take more responsibility for their actions and not feel that the world is a smiley, happy place where there are no bad people and as long as you are a good person, nothing bad will happen to you.

I don't blame the victim, ever. Sure, if someone is stupid, it increases the odds that something bad will happen to them, but it doesn't make someone else's bad actions their fault.

I disagree with the whole "sex education can stop men from being rapists" attitude, too. I think seeing all men as potential rapists is a big insult to most men. And I don't think any rapist is going to go to a college presentation and stop being a rapist. Rapists are not like most people - they are subhuman filth, and death is too good for them. They don't need counseling, they need a bullet in the head. The only things that consistently reduce the rates of violent crimes are incarceration, and vigilance on the part of potential victims.


Now, to bring this back to Shadowrun... How do you think near-universal commlinks would affect such crimes? I mean, every victim could be chatting with 3 different people, or taking a video and sound recording of you - it would have to make some would-be perpetrators think twice.

mfb: All right, I guess in a way doing bad things is all too human. But I was reacting to the failed "rehabilitation" model that sends too many rapists and other violent criminals out to commit the same crimes again, because they've had "counseling". I've seen too many repeat offenders to have much faith in that.

And yeah, education could help if done at an early age, when attitudes are still being formed. I don't think it does much good when someone already is that kind of criminal, though.


Now, in Shadowrun terms, what kind of "rehabilitation" do you think violent criminals might receive? A simsense recording from a victim's POV? Subliminal messages or psychotropic programming? What kind of side effects would there be (A Clockwork Orange, anyone)? Would the "cure" be worse than the disease in some cases?

On the flip side, could some evil NPC use subliminal mods in a simchip to turn people into violent criminals?

Is there something so many of you are finding particularly difficult about grasping responsibility as something more complex than facile dichotomy?

which "you"?

Yeah, that got massively instaposted.

So, HMHVV Hunter, Snow_Fox, and I'm sure many others, try this: culpability of the criminal is not mutually exclusive of broader responsibility of the society (including, yes, the victim) that creates an environment that makes that crime possible. This extends well beyond rape.

Acting so bad I could only watch 10 minutes of it... But I could guess the plot had something to do with rapesims? I'm sure those exist (where someone with a simrig is raped... by someone with a simrig), but AR makes random rape possible - though I suppose it was always possible with VR.

It was about a serial killer that made you wear trodes so he could project his experiences of killing you into your mind while he was doing it. Really fucked up shit, and I rarely curse.

What about a high tech gang's version of a "jump in" or "beat in". They play you the BTL sim of someone being raped, mutilated, and beat to death (while they all experience the other side). If you survive the chip, you're in the gang.

could do the same thing with illusion spells, for a wizzer gang.

Illusionary rape and virtual rape... How do you prove a crime that only exists in the mind?

Spell signatures and data tracking? A few seconds to Cleanse the first, and almost too easy to fake the latter...

That's, uh... an interesting thought. I can't really imagine any gang that would want a member to live through that not feeling it would be appropriate just to beat them in themselves, though...

*shrug* real-world gang initiations sometimes include real rape. going through something like that so that the perpetrator(s) will accept you isn't palatable to you (or me)--but, then, we're not the type of people who'd be interested in joining a gang to begin with.

Snow Fox, i'm not apologizing for rapists. i'm simply saying that it's unrealistic to act stupid in dangerous situations and expect to have nothing bad happen. if you like, i can change it from "jumping off a cliff" to "teasing hungry animals". it's a fact of life that if you are stupid enough to do something dangerous, you are probably going to get hurt.

if that happens, yes, punish the rapist. he's 100% guilty. but punishing a criminal after the fact does not prevent the crime from being committed. if you want to prevent rape, don't put yourself in situations where being raped is more likely. this is not about blame, or fault or anything else--it's about not getting raped.

you, Snow Fox, understand this already at some level. i know this because you carry a gun and are trained in its use. it boils down to a very simple question: who is responsible for your safety?

Are you deliberately ignoring everything you keep responding to?

The crime of the rapist does not obviate the victim of all possible responsibility any more than the victim's behavior obviates the rapist of guilt. These are not mutually exclusive. Responsibility is not a dichotomy.

Part of preventing a crime could be having an intolerant stance towards it by the majority of society. Thus we could argue that even looking honestly at the issue, removing the black and white quality of it, might damage the natural pressure against rape... However, that's a tough sell.

[e] Yet, a large problem is the guilt felt by rape victims, adding to this by suggesting they really are guilty when not even half report the crime is probably not going to help anything (it doesn't matter if guilt != responsibility, that's a complex issue to indoctrinate). It would be better to direct responsibility at society and the rapist until crime reporting is much closer to crimes committed.

Thus, no more calling rape victims stupid.