Full Version: Target Numbers Systems
| QUOTE |
| Shadowrun was always bright and colourfull on the surface, with more darkness and human misery thrown in the deeper you went into the shadows |
Try walking downt he street getting pelted by 500 ads for penis enlargement, viagra, and African money laundering schemes and then tell me how miserable you feel.
| QUOTE |
| FanPro will no longer be focusing on Seattle as a primary setting and to include it (or any other sprawl) in the core book would have been misleading. |
As an example of this, the Missions so far have been set in Denver (unless my GM did some major changes). but since he ran one of them on very short notice but had printed maps with numbers on them, I'm going to guess he didn't.
James, one laugh point for you.
Though I really prefer having the street lined by squatters, gangs and criminals instead of Spam adds (by the way, you forgot the ads for porn and sex (meat as well as matrix), those are usually the most anoying ones to players
).
And, serious, this is excactly the problem - the squatters may still sit there, but noone notices them now as ads are everywhere, bright and colourful, drowning out the misery beneath ...
Synner :
No Problem with FanPro not focusing on Seattle so much anymore (... wait a sec, they stopped doing so in 3rd ed anyway, didn't they ? Or did I dream up all those sourcebooks ?).
No, what's my problem is that it's the first Shadowrun Core Rulebook without any setting information. ANY. Or, in other words, the first Shadowrun Core Rulebook that's near-to-useless as a standalone.
And this is not only the case for setting. Matrix Rules, Rigger Rules, Magic Rules - there's only enough in the rulebook to emulate a basic system, more like guidelines for development for the individual segments - no more.
This wasn't the case with SR1-SR3, you COULD start with just the rulebook and play. K, your options were limited, but you had enough to start from somewhere. With 4, I'll have to wait until ALL the additional Sourcebooks are published (... having to them them all over again, of course ... just as a sidenote ...) so I can make use of the Core Rules.
'Didn't have the problem with 3rd ed., I'd have had enough to start out if I hadn't already had nearly all 2nd ed suplements, and as I did, I could just work with them.
Don't tell me this works for 4th too ... I know, it's possible, but it's a hell-of-a-PITA.
Sorry, that's poor. Really poor. Poor enough that it screems 'We're poor, give us your money'
Okay, that's pretty much offtopic, I'd still have prefered a having fluctuating TNs - I already made use of Dice Pool Modifiers and Thresholds in 3rd (hell, 'did so even in 2nd ...), so they aren't anything new in 4th - but I'm seriously varaible TNs.
Though I really prefer having the street lined by squatters, gangs and criminals instead of Spam adds (by the way, you forgot the ads for porn and sex (meat as well as matrix), those are usually the most anoying ones to players
).And, serious, this is excactly the problem - the squatters may still sit there, but noone notices them now as ads are everywhere, bright and colourful, drowning out the misery beneath ...
Synner :
No Problem with FanPro not focusing on Seattle so much anymore (... wait a sec, they stopped doing so in 3rd ed anyway, didn't they ? Or did I dream up all those sourcebooks ?).
No, what's my problem is that it's the first Shadowrun Core Rulebook without any setting information. ANY. Or, in other words, the first Shadowrun Core Rulebook that's near-to-useless as a standalone.
And this is not only the case for setting. Matrix Rules, Rigger Rules, Magic Rules - there's only enough in the rulebook to emulate a basic system, more like guidelines for development for the individual segments - no more.
This wasn't the case with SR1-SR3, you COULD start with just the rulebook and play. K, your options were limited, but you had enough to start from somewhere. With 4, I'll have to wait until ALL the additional Sourcebooks are published (... having to them them all over again, of course ... just as a sidenote ...) so I can make use of the Core Rules.
'Didn't have the problem with 3rd ed., I'd have had enough to start out if I hadn't already had nearly all 2nd ed suplements, and as I did, I could just work with them.
Don't tell me this works for 4th too ... I know, it's possible, but it's a hell-of-a-PITA.
Sorry, that's poor. Really poor. Poor enough that it screems 'We're poor, give us your money'
Okay, that's pretty much offtopic, I'd still have prefered a having fluctuating TNs - I already made use of Dice Pool Modifiers and Thresholds in 3rd (hell, 'did so even in 2nd ...), so they aren't anything new in 4th - but I'm seriously varaible TNs.
| QUOTE (Phobos @ Jun 30 2006, 04:26 PM) |
| Synner : No Problem with FanPro not focusing on Seattle so much anymore (... wait a sec, they stopped doing so in 3rd ed anyway, didn't they ? Or did I dream up all those sourcebooks ?). |
Not that much actually in terms of major events Seattle still got more than its fair share.
| QUOTE |
| No, what's my problem is that it's the first Shadowrun Core Rulebook without any setting information. ANY. Or, in other words, the first Shadowrun Core Rulebook that's near-to-useless as a standalone. |
Again I disagree. It presents loads of setting information, it just isn't location specific. You seem to be mixing the two.
Life on the Edge pages 35-50 of SR4 present more information on the major players, the underworld and life on the streets (any streets) of 2070 than SR3 ever did for the Sixth World. The material, groups and details therein can be plugged into any sprawl a newb GM might desire.
Sure you aren't handfed the name of the police contractor or the head of the local mob, but you can make anything up on the fly for any setting you want. Many players these days prefer that latitude so why not give them context rather than location specific details. Life on the Edge tells you how things work and you plug it into your anywhere and anyway you want. If you prefer to use official settings those are optional rather than mandatory.
| QUOTE |
| And this is not only the case for setting. Matrix Rules, Rigger Rules, Magic Rules - there's only enough in the rulebook to emulate a basic system, more like guidelines for development for the individual segments - no more. |
Again I suggest people reread SR4. All the core elements of the system are there and there are more core mechanics than in any other edition of SR. If there's something missing that was covered in the rules in a previous edition and isn't in SR4 please provide an example. In my experience the Magic, Rigging and Matrix rules are more complete, cover more angles and are more playable than they've ever been in any previous edition and I've been playing since SR1.
| QUOTE |
| This wasn't the case with SR1-SR3, you COULD start with just the rulebook and play. K, your options were limited, but you had enough to start from somewhere. With 4, I'll have to wait until ALL the additional Sourcebooks are published (... having to them them all over again, of course ... just as a sidenote ...) so I can make use of the Core Rules. |
You've lost me here. I've been playing with the new rules for almost 2 years now and I've yet to be stumped by a situation, that the rules in SR3 covered and SR4 doesn't cover. An example would be appreciated.
| QUOTE |
| 'Didn't have the problem with 3rd ed., I'd have had enough to start out if I hadn't already had nearly all 2nd ed suplements, and as I did, I could just work with them. Don't tell me this works for 4th too ... I know, it's possible, but it's a hell-of-a-PITA. |
Read it anyway you like. I've initiated new players to the game and setting in far less time than ever before by using Life on the Edge as handouts. I've run multi-level fights without ever grinding to a halt because of a missing rule, I've had a newb play a hacker when even the suggestion of playing a decker would daunt an SR3 veteran.
I (and many others) have been playing SR4 with just the rule book and having fun for more than a year. I've yet to encounter any problems of the type you've described - unlike, for instance, a couple of things that Cain has mentioned which are indeed (very) minor holes in the current rules (please don't tell me the "agent rush" problem has ground your game to a halt, or the absence of Anchoring rules, or details on the Resonance Realms...)
Maybe specific examples of what exactly you mean (specially when compared to SR3) would help.
| QUOTE |
| And, serious, this is excactly the problem - the squatters may still sit there, but noone notices them now as ads are everywhere, bright and colourful, drowning out the misery beneath ... |
Nah, if it's an area where squatters live, it's not an area worth spamming.
| QUOTE |
| And this is not only the case for setting. Matrix Rules, Rigger Rules, Magic Rules - there's only enough in the rulebook to emulate a basic system, more like guidelines for development for the individual segments - no more. |
Our group has a mage/hacker, a rigger/street sam, a face, and a full-fledged street sam and we've had no real problems running things with just the core rulebook. We're all looking forward to the supplements and the bels and whistels / clarifications they'll bring, but playing with the core book alone is well within the realm of possibility.
Synner :
'Guess I have to give in some, though I didn't have to reread SR4 (I'm familiar enough with that thanks to running it) but SR3 ...
Wanting to accept your challenge, I looked up my old SR3 book, dug it out frum under a dozen or so sourcebooks and some dust and browsed through it until I finally noticed the difference : about a hundred pages of collected tables copied from other SR2 and SR3 books for easy reference, lists of house rules, custom totems and spells, introduced equipment, locations, maps, contacts ... $h!t ... that might have made a difference
More so as my SR4 notes are a couple of textfiles on a notebook computer ... damn.
That might just explain why if felt different.
Still, i wanted to make sure, so I went through all the chapters :
(SR4 <-> SR3)
... result : Content (SR4 Core) = Content (SR3 Core) + Some Fluff + Initiates + Otaku + Street Drugs + half a dozen Critters + Bioware - Localized Setting - Mainframes - Some Other Fluff
Yes, that fulfills "More content than before".
So, TECHNICALY you're right.
Satisfied ?
So I guess my problem were the 100 pages of notes (yeah, my fault), the difference in "+Some Fluff - Some Other Fluff" and some of the varity of SR3 that fell prey to streamlining ... oh, and something that no device or count can measure : atmosphere ... but that one is probably relativ.
Now we can put this part back to rest.
The topic wasn't 'Content' or 'Number of Horrid Rules' but 'Target Number Systems', and my opinion's still that a decent fluctuating TN system is better than a fixed TN system, as it represents a 3D system of scaling dificulty/success instead of a 2D system.
And that difficulty divided into Character Means/Base Difficulty/Complexity makes more Sense™ than (Character Means + Random Amounts of Base Difficulty)/(Complexity + Remaining Base Difficulty).
Your turn.
And no, thanks for asking, but I didn't have anything yet ground my game to a halt, but probably only 'cause I have noticed most rule problems and loopholes before my players encountered them, and perpared fixes ... and made up things on the fly if I hadn't. But that still means that the RAW have problems ... wait, I remember ... "There are no problems. Nothing to see here. Just move on." Right ...
James :
You might not believe it, but there are squatters living (squatting) in C and B Rating neighborhoods, yes they even appear in A Rating areas like Downtown unless the Star chases them away (which happens rather often) - they aren't restricted to Z-zones.
'Same with Criminals : C areas thrieve in Gangs, B areas are often the home of Syndicates - you might see a few Mobsters (or their pet Gangs) walk the area to remind shopkeepers of paying their protection money ... hell you can even see such a thing in A areas, though the Mobs have rivalries with some Local Ppolice Forces offering 'Threat Response Priority' for a little extra fee
All those areas are worth spamming, in fact no others are - you'd not try it in AA or AAA areas, and most 'entertainment enterprises', clubs, shady dealers and swindlers (are/operate out of Nodes in) B or C areas anyway - and find their clientel there, in the first place.
In rating A+ areas, corp-citizens are most common, and those are pretty useless to AddSpam™.
Btw, our (my (poor GM me :sob: ... :crackling laugther: poor them)) group has
[rant]well, familiarity mith the 2050-65 settings ... that stupid 5 year time warp ... RAW could have used about two (2!) pages update on these years, and I'd been happy with 4th ed. ... yes, just a little bit more (hard) fluff ![/rant]
... but for both the Rigger (Vehicle Customazation) and the Decker (Mainframe Architectures, Security Measures ... A Guide on System Tallies (or whatever will be introduced instead) !!!) a little more would a pretty much ...
Needless to say that just those two are the hardest to convert from 3rd as those system have changed the most.
'Guess I have to give in some, though I didn't have to reread SR4 (I'm familiar enough with that thanks to running it) but SR3 ...
Wanting to accept your challenge, I looked up my old SR3 book, dug it out frum under a dozen or so sourcebooks and some dust and browsed through it until I finally noticed the difference : about a hundred pages of collected tables copied from other SR2 and SR3 books for easy reference, lists of house rules, custom totems and spells, introduced equipment, locations, maps, contacts ... $h!t ... that might have made a difference
More so as my SR4 notes are a couple of textfiles on a notebook computer ... damn.
That might just explain why if felt different.
Still, i wanted to make sure, so I went through all the chapters :
(SR4 <-> SR3)
- Introductory Story : Buzkill <-> See How They Run ... check
- Welcome to the Shadows <-> Welcome To The Shadows ... check
- A History Lesson for the Reality Impaired <-> And So It Came To Pass ... (check)
And So It Came To Pass wins through level of detail. - Life on the Edge <-> Seattle And The Modern Northwest ... d'oh.
Right, this one if difficult as those are different angles - one is a Sprawl Survial Guide Lite!, the other Seattle Sourcebook Lite!
I'll probably say LotE wins this one ... barely ... on count of non-location setting information, but much of what's in it is mentionend in one way or the other in some fluff all through SR3.
Imagining up a newbie (to SR) GM and a newbie (to SR) Group, SR4 wins as a player resource, SR3 as a GM resource ... still a good GM can make up for the lack of details, so SR4 wins this one (barely).
... of course LotE loses versus the Sprawl Survival Guide, but yes, right, that's not part of the Core Rules ... - Game Concepts <-> Game Concepts ... check
- Creating a Shadowrunner <-> Creating A Shadowrunner ... check
('can't even decide which sample characters are worse) - Skills <-> Skills ... check
(well, Skills <-> Skills + Perception (Running In The Shadows) - Combat <-> Combat ... check
(well, Combat <-> Combat + Vehicle Combat (Vehicles And Drones) ...
no real difference in content, but SR4 might win by technality ... SR3 had Maneuver Scores (a kind of disease) ... but that's Rules, not Content) - The Awakened World <-> Magic ... check
(well, okay, Initiates are finally Core Rules, so one technicality for SR4) - The Wireless World <-> The Matrix ... check
(well, The Awakened World <-> The Matrix + Vehicles And Drones ...
Otaku are now Core Rules as Technomancers ... unfortunately rule integration is horrid here, but we were talking Content ...
One horrid lack in Content in SR4 on the other hand are Mainframes ... you really expect us to handle a Corporate Mainframe like a common Commlink ? A Mainframe build to handle intreractions with millions of icons each second ? Mainframes that run half a Corp's Business ? ... yeah right ...
Half a point though for the Build Hardware/Code Programs Part ... though I'm feeling gracious to count them as 'Content') - Running the Shadows <-> Running The Shadows ... check
(well, Running the Shadows <-> Running The Shadows + Beyond The Shados + Damage And Healing (Combat)
Hooray for Street Drugs. On we go.) - Friends and Foes <-> Contacts + Spirits And Dragons ... check
((+ Non-Player Characters (Beyond The Shadows)
Win by technicality as some Critters were added. Move on.) - Street Gear <-> Street Gear ... check
(well, win by technicality for SR3, I miss Boosted Reflexes and Turrets and Heavy Weapon Mounts for Vehicles
... okay, serious ... Bioware finally made it into the Core Rules - k.)
... result : Content (SR4 Core) = Content (SR3 Core) + Some Fluff + Initiates + Otaku + Street Drugs + half a dozen Critters + Bioware - Localized Setting - Mainframes - Some Other Fluff
Yes, that fulfills "More content than before".
So, TECHNICALY you're right.
Satisfied ?
So I guess my problem were the 100 pages of notes (yeah, my fault), the difference in "+Some Fluff - Some Other Fluff" and some of the varity of SR3 that fell prey to streamlining ... oh, and something that no device or count can measure : atmosphere ... but that one is probably relativ.
Now we can put this part back to rest.
The topic wasn't 'Content' or 'Number of Horrid Rules' but 'Target Number Systems', and my opinion's still that a decent fluctuating TN system is better than a fixed TN system, as it represents a 3D system of scaling dificulty/success instead of a 2D system.
And that difficulty divided into Character Means/Base Difficulty/Complexity makes more Sense™ than (Character Means + Random Amounts of Base Difficulty)/(Complexity + Remaining Base Difficulty).
Your turn.
And no, thanks for asking, but I didn't have anything yet ground my game to a halt, but probably only 'cause I have noticed most rule problems and loopholes before my players encountered them, and perpared fixes ... and made up things on the fly if I hadn't. But that still means that the RAW have problems ... wait, I remember ... "There are no problems. Nothing to see here. Just move on." Right ...
James :
You might not believe it, but there are squatters living (squatting) in C and B Rating neighborhoods, yes they even appear in A Rating areas like Downtown unless the Star chases them away (which happens rather often) - they aren't restricted to Z-zones.
'Same with Criminals : C areas thrieve in Gangs, B areas are often the home of Syndicates - you might see a few Mobsters (or their pet Gangs) walk the area to remind shopkeepers of paying their protection money ... hell you can even see such a thing in A areas, though the Mobs have rivalries with some Local Ppolice Forces offering 'Threat Response Priority' for a little extra fee
All those areas are worth spamming, in fact no others are - you'd not try it in AA or AAA areas, and most 'entertainment enterprises', clubs, shady dealers and swindlers (are/operate out of Nodes in) B or C areas anyway - and find their clientel there, in the first place.
In rating A+ areas, corp-citizens are most common, and those are pretty useless to AddSpam™.
Btw, our (my (poor GM me :sob: ... :crackling laugther: poor them
)) group has- a Decker/Hacker who's only challenged when I put up extrem resistence (all-6 system or at least rating 5 and paranoid security or dirty tricks like Cascading IC or SKs) ... or shoot at him
Fortunately I can usually keep him occupied with something else if need be ... like Miracle Shooter. - a Rigger who's player asking about twice each session for me to find him a way to modify his toys ...
- a Gunbunny Adept ... need I say more ?
- a Cyber-Gunbunny ... lucky me.
- and a crazed Shaman ... no, you don't want to know.
[rant]well, familiarity mith the 2050-65 settings ... that stupid 5 year time warp ... RAW could have used about two (2!) pages update on these years, and I'd been happy with 4th ed. ... yes, just a little bit more (hard) fluff ![/rant]
... but for both the Rigger (Vehicle Customazation) and the Decker (Mainframe Architectures, Security Measures ... A Guide on System Tallies (or whatever will be introduced instead) !!!) a little more would a pretty much ...
Needless to say that just those two are the hardest to convert from 3rd as those system have changed the most.
| QUOTE (Phobos @ Jul 1 2006, 05:27 AM) |
| Synner : 'Guess I have to give in some, though I didn't have to reread SR4 (I'm familiar enough with that thanks to running it) but SR3 ... Wanting to accept your challenge, I looked up my old SR3 book, dug it out frum under a dozen or so sourcebooks and some dust and browsed through it until I finally noticed the difference : about a hundred pages of collected tables copied from other SR2 and SR3 books for easy reference, lists of house rules, custom totems and spells, introduced equipment, locations, maps, contacts ... $h!t ... that might have made a difference More so as my SR4 notes are a couple of textfiles on a notebook computer ... damn. That might just explain why if felt different. [snip] ... result : Content (SR4 Core) = Content (SR3 Core) + Some Fluff + Initiates + Otaku + Street Drugs + half a dozen Critters + Bioware - Localized Setting - Mainframes - Some Other Fluff Yes, that fulfills "More content than before". So, TECHNICALY you're right. Satisfied ? |
I want to make sure you understand Phobos, I'm not saying SR4 is perfect or complete, far from it. I've been simply contesting your comparison with SR3 strictly on the basis of content and rules in the core book, and the fact that the rules that are there aren't as self-contained or as far reaching.
| QUOTE |
| So I guess my problem were the 100 pages of notes (yeah, my fault), the difference in "+Some Fluff - Some Other Fluff" and some of the varity of SR3 that fell prey to streamlining ... oh, and something that no device or count can measure : atmosphere ... but that one is probably relativ. Now we can put this part back to rest. |
Possibly in 5-6 releases time you'll have just as many notes? On the issue of atmosphere I'd like to suggest that part of the problem might be not so much the atmosphere that is there but the shift it represents in terms of environment.
I've got to admit my perspective on this is not-representative, because I've been writing stuff for SR for a while now and I saw this coming (see as far back as DotSW and SoE for the WMI) and I've been tinkering with ways to meld the old style cyberpunk with the newer "slipstream" influences. I think this will show in some of the fiction that's coming up but I don't think AR is a biggest issue. In my game the glitz of AR just accentuates the differences in society. AR overlays on the streets are transparent so you can actually see where you're walking - which means that delicious scented Nukit! Burger ad is floating over the three famished squatters on the curb begging for some change.
| QUOTE |
| One horrid lack in Content in SR4 on the other hand are Mainframes ... you really expect us to handle a Corporate Mainframe like a common Commlink ? A Mainframe build to handle intreractions with millions of icons each second ? Mainframes that run half a Corp's Business ? ... yeah right ... |
Actually, yes. You can handle corporate networks as commlinks, just keep in mind that it is a network (or better yet a distributed network of nodes), rather than a stand alone and security is treated network-wide. I assume mainframes in such networks will have ratings above normal commlinks, but in fact you don't really need to interact with them directly (most of the time) to get things done.
| QUOTE |
| The topic wasn't 'Content' or 'Number of Horrid Rules' but 'Target Number Systems', and my opinion's still that a decent fluctuating TN system is better than a fixed TN system, as it represents a 3D system of scaling dificulty/success instead of a 2D system. And that difficulty divided into Character Means/Base Difficulty/Complexity makes more Sense™ than (Character Means + Random Amounts of Base Difficulty)/(Complexity + Remaining Base Difficulty). Your turn. |
I like the variable target number system, always have. It was the hardest part of the shift for me as a playtester and a player. However, the (apparent) complexity of the "3D scaling system" (when combined with 7 distinct sub-mechanics systems) was one of the reasons Shadowrun had an entry level barrier for newbs and why it was slowly bleeding veterans. FanPro judged that the setting had always been the main sell point of SR and that a revamp of the SR3 system would not have been enough to draw in new fans and rekindle the interest of the drop outs (eg. if a veteran picked SR4 off the shelf and saw the same mechanics he would be less inclined to try it out again because the main reasons he dropped it in the first place - the mechanics not the setting - would apparently still be there). It was a gamble, but one that has paid off.
Do I like one system more than the other? At this point yes. The fixed TN has grown on me since I started working on Street Magic, because I realized the lowered complexity actually allows for a lot more tweaks and adjustments for personal style than SR3 ever did. In SR3 you always had to worry with the unexpected "cascading" effect of any change to other sub-systems which might skew the game balance. As you'll see in Street Magic the fixed TN system and linear progression allows a number of tweaks and variations which don't compromise the game balance in the same way.
The other reason that I, as a game designer, appreciate the new system (regardless of whether its variable or fixed TN) is that it allows me to rework game mechanics from scratch with an eye on their organic interaction with other systems and eliminating "legacy" issues - something that wasn't the case with any of the previous editions of SR.
| QUOTE |
| And no, thanks for asking, but I didn't have anything yet ground my game to a halt, but probably only 'cause I have noticed most rule problems and loopholes before my players encountered them, and perpared fixes ... and made up things on the fly if I hadn't. But that still means that the RAW have problems ... |
There's a difference between absences and problems. There's stuff that still needs to be addressed and there is stuff still missing that simply didn't fit in the basic book (it already has more stuff than ever before). Those are absences that will be covered in due time (in upcoming books). Most of the content issues fall under this bit.
There are rules problems too, of course. Some are honest mistakes (eg. the remote service contradiction). Others like the "agent rush/burly brawl"/teamwork issue stems from oversights or stuff that FanPro decided could be left for later books. It can simply be resolved by adding a line to Teamwork Test descriptions to the effect that: "However, too many cooks spoil the broth, and too many helpers actually get in the way. Like in real like Teamwork in Shadowrun is subject to diminishing returns and the maximum effective positive dice modifier is limited to the highest skill rating among the characters participating in the Test." However, these may yet be addressed in the upcoming errata and FAQs. I've yet to find one of these that is a game breaker.
| QUOTE |
| wait, I remember ... "There are no problems. Nothing to see here. Just move on." Right ... |
Again, that's not what I said. I simply argued against the points in your previous assessment. Basic SR4 has quite a few problems, just less so than SR3.
| QUOTE |
| Truth is you produced an SR3 example for comparison and I refuted it using SR3 and saying your perception of those mechanics are flawed because you are not using the core SR3 rules as written. |
Incorrect. I used a SR3 example, you used an "All editions of Shadowrun" cunterexample, and have now admitted that you were wrong.
| QUOTE |
| And again what you were told almost immediately by several people is that Edge 1 means a Joe non-Average in SR4. |
Nope. What people have said is that, at worse, he's not a Joe Average *human*. Note that I never specified a race for him? The problem here is that he's got Edge 1; either that's way too high, or somewhat low for a human. In either case, there's no rule saying one thing or the other, otherwise you'd have provided a page reference to the rule: "No NPC, no matter what his role, can have an Edge of only 1."
How come I'm the one quoting the rules, here? Where are your page references? Please show me where it's impossible for Joe Average to have an Edge of 1, and I'll concede the point.
| QUOTE |
| As you will note from this thread alone you are in the minority. Even those people who don't like SR4 recognize it runs faster and is more coherent than SR3 (some will say its because it's dumbed down but that does not contradict what I've said above). |
Please reread what I wrote. To me, it does not run *significantly* faster; and people who like faster systems still aren't finding SR4 to be fast enough to bump off their favorite games. Just go over to RPG.net, and count the number of threads in the last day or so on Savage Worlds, versus the ones on Shadowrun (any edition). My count has it at somewhere around 15:0.
| QUOTE |
| I've said this before but I'll say it again: Take your SR1-3 BBB and reread them again just for background material on the world - disregard what every other SR book put out has added to that (because that's what entry level players do). Then compare any one of those books with SR4 BBB strictly in terms of introducing the setting and the world. |
Let's start with some specifics, then. SR3 uses shadowtalk more-or-less consistently throughout the book, and has similar slang used in most fiction/IC pieces. Sr4 opens with Buzzkill, which uses strictly modern slang; then the opening chapter fiction flips back and forth between extreme slang, to none at all. There is no way around this one: it's poor design, stemming from a lack of coherent vision of the world.
Matrix slang is a specific subset. Instead of being close to terms from earlier editions of Shadowrun, or any other piece of speculative fiction, you can use the WinXP user's manual to accurately define just about every term. So, while Sr1-3 drew on the vision of Gibson, Sterling, and Stephenson; Sr4's matrix is based on the imagination of Bill Gates.
Sr1-3 also spends time focusing on one setting: Seattle. Now, from an experienced player point of view, a wide approach is usually good; they can fill in the details more readily. This approach also works well for those who are looking for a good generic system. However, for a new player, it's best to have a small, easy-to-grasp, setting. By your own admission, the goal of Sr4 was to present an entire world in the core book. This is much harder to absorb than a single place. Sr4 may have more overall content, but it's spread out much further, resulting in less detail and immersion. Focusing on one core place in detail, and loosely sketching everything else as a placeholder for future supplements, is the truly "newbie friendly" way to go.
| QUOTE |
| I am at a loss as to where you are getting this in the SR4 BBB. Could you provide quotes? |
I've given a few in this post, but to continue: in the "Life on the Edge" chapter, there's 14 pages of text. Of those, roughly 5 are primarly concerned with the new Matrix. About one page is dedicated to magic, 2 1/2 deal with the Megacorps, 1 deals with organized crime, 1 deals with metahuman issues, 2 pages dedicated to everyday life, and the rest deals with various miscellany. In "A history lesson for the reality impaired", two whole pages are dedicated to the Crash 2.0 and the Wireless matrix; the original crash gets about 3/4 of a column, and Dunkelzan's election and will gets even less than that. The Great Ghost Dance gets less than half a paragraph.
Clearly, the developers felt that the wireless matrix should get most of the spotlight time. Which is fine and dandy, except that they still did too much ret-conning. They would have been much better off going with an "Ultimate Shadowrun" approach; following in the same general themes, while restarting from scratch and excising the worst of the heavy metaplot. As it stands, there's still far too much metaplot to make the game accessible, and not enough in the core book to make things interesting.
| QUOTE |
| The game needed a new public face if it was going to survive into the next decade in the current market, it needed to move away from the general perception of being an unduly complex system with a steep learning curve, it needed a new system to bring back drop-outs and bring over new blood, it needed an update consistent with what today's (and tomorrow's) audience expects of a neo-cyberpunk setting, it needed to back away from metaplot development, and it needed to provide a jumping on point - SR4 has accomplished all that. |
Poorly. Or rather, not nearly as good as it could have been, and not for the reasons you're thinking. Basically, look at some of the most enduring games and settings on the market; none of them have required as extensive of a facelift. Forgotten Realms, for example, is still noticeably the same place as it ever was. Also, you've highlighted my problem: Shadowrun has attempted to go from classic cyberpunk/fantasy, to neo-cyberpunk with fantasy elements. It also did not need a new system to revitalize itself; what it did require was a cleanup of the old system.
I'll grant that SR3 suffered badly from rules-creep, but I've yet to see any guarantee that SR4 will not fall into that same mold. In fact, given the number of supplements already planned, it's possible that the rate of rules creep will be even faster and more imblanaced than ever before.
| QUOTE |
| As far as I'm concerned, and once again comparing the basic various iterations of the core rule books, I disagree with your analysis of the themes and style of SR4. The treatment of all the themes is as detailed as its always been - though admittedly the focus has shifted. There's more setting information to provide a contextual everyday framework for the themes than ever before and none of the setting history has been redressed to keep up with the times (as happened with SR2-3). |
That's exactly the problem. There's more information, but less detail. As a result, it's not as rich; it's not as immersive, it's not as meaningful, it's just flat-out not as entertaining. There's a framework, yes; and granted, no other SR BBB ever tried to provide a worldwide framework. However, this is *not* a good thing, especially for newer players. It's better to have provided a core setting with a sketchy framework, than a generic framework with no core.
| QUOTE |
| Sure you aren't handfed the name of the police contractor or the head of the local mob, but you can make anything up on the fly for any setting you want. Many players these days prefer that latitude so why not give them context rather than location specific details. |
You're completely wrong on this one. Many *GM's* these days prefer to make things up on the fly, but at least as many like having an established setting, so they can focus on game-specific details. However, almost all the *players* (especially new ones) like having details that quickly immerse them into the new world. This helps players and GMs get on the same page as to the themes, atmospheres, and feel of the game world. You haven't given them one rich setting, you've given them a lot of generic ones: there's no longer any difference between Seattle, Boston, Philadalphia, Detroit, or any other megasprawl. You're mistaking a framework for actual context.
Part of my complaint about On The Run was that it's very GM-centered, and not very player-friendly. You're reinforcing that view heavily. Gamemasters do not comprimise all Shadowrun players, or even the majority; but somehow, most of SR4 is heavily GM-focused.
And even in the BBB, there's a lot of material that's better for GM's than players. For example, the new Build-a-Tradition rules. From a GM's standpoint, and an advanced player's standpoint, this is a wonderful idea: you can quickly customize out a tradition to fit any concept you might like. However, from a new player's standpoint, this is an ugly mess devoid of life and detail. The two main traditions get about two-thirds of a column apiece, not nearly enough detail to help bring character concepts to life. If you're a GM, this isn't a problem; but if you're new to Shadowrun magic, you're not going to get a feel for it from three sketchy paragraphs.
My biggest beef, however, is the chargen system. The MCCT was a quick, easy, flexible way of creating a lot of varied characters; it was simple enough for total newbies to grasp in a matter of minutes, yet detailed enough to suit even the most advanced players. In Shadowrun: Missions, you were restricted to MCCT characters only; I never once saw any two characters even come close to one another. SR4 hands you 400 points, and says "Play nice". It doesn't even give you an actual set of directions, it says: "We recommend you start this way, but there is no actual plan, just a bunch of things to buy." Even using a program, I couldn't get experienced gamers to create SR4 characters in less than 2 hours, *excluding* gear. Their biggest complaint was that they weren't ever sure what they were supposed to be doing at what step.
| QUOTE |
| FanPro judged that the setting had always been the main sell point of SR and that a revamp of the SR3 system would not have been enough to draw in new fans and rekindle the interest of the drop outs (eg. if a veteran picked SR4 off the shelf and saw the same mechanics he would be less inclined to try it out again because the main reasons he dropped it in the first place - the mechanics not the setting - would apparently still be there). It was a gamble, but one that has paid off. |
You're essentially saying that if FanPro had converted Shadowrun to d20, and made money, it'd consider it an equal success.
| QUOTE |
| The other reason that I, as a game designer, appreciate the new system (regardless of whether its variable or fixed TN) is that it allows me to rework game mechanics from scratch with an eye on their organic interaction with other systems and eliminating "legacy" issues - something that wasn't the case with any of the previous editions of SR. |
That's why an "Ultimate Shadowrun" approach might have worked better. Take free reign to eliminate any legacy issues, while keeping the core intact. For example, grounding was excised in Sr3, without harming the core rules. Unfortunately, there's still a lot of legacy issues in the setting and rules. If the goal was to eliminate them, they failed.
| QUOTE |
| Basic SR4 has quite a few problems, just less so than SR3. |
Yes, they just run deeper and hit the breaking point faster. The Longshot issue is the best example of this. No one's proposed a simple fix that works; and the complex solutions generally require abandoning fixed TN's, adding a ton of bookwork, or other issues.
| QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 2 2006, 10:23 AM) | ||
Incorrect. I used a SR3 example, you used an "All editions of Shadowrun" cunterexample, and have now admitted that you were wrong. |
Here we go again. I did not use an "all editions of Shadowrun" counter-example. In fact I pointed out exactly where the rules could be found in SR3. You stated that this was somehow inapplicable because SR3 was simply an iteration of the previous rulesets. I have yet to quote editions prior to SR3 except to reply to your posts and even then I have used no pre-SR3 examples.
Despite this attempt to skew the discussion, the fact of the matter is you compared to SR3, and you brought previous editions into the discussion by implying that SR3's game balance was somehow contingent on the game balance of SR1 and 2 - by saying that the addition of karma pool for NPCs was a later addition.
I didn't deem this worth pursuing since if you believe that SR2 and SR3 game balance is that similar, it's an issue that's simply not worth discussing. If you don't recognize the difference in game balance between SR2 and 3 that led the devs to introduce karma pool for NPCs as part of the equation there's really no point in getting into it. I'm really not going to waste my time discussing something as obvious as the differences between SR1, SR2 and SR3 on the level of game balance (and especifically in the combat rules). Yes, they are obvious iterations of each other, but each time game balance has shifted significantly with the change to something as fundamental as the Initiative rules impacts the way Combat Pool is used, how Karma Pool can be allocated, when it KP refreshes, Threat Ratings renew and function, etc (regardless of whether these are PC or NPC rules) and redresses the game balance - meaning there is no value to your arguement about NPC Karma Pool in SR3.
I'll repeat my initial point which you counter-argued: Karma Pool is integral to the game balance of SR3 for NPCs. If comment on the game balance of SR3 without taking that into account your argument is inherently flawed. If you compare the game balance of using Edge in SR4 to SR3 without taking into account KP for NPCs your argument is also flawed (because you are voluntarily ignoring an integral element of the SR3 RAW).
| QUOTE | ||
Nope. What people have said is that, at worse, he's not a Joe Average *human*. Note that I never specified a race for him? The problem here is that he's got Edge 1; either that's way too high, or somewhat low for a human. In either case, there's no rule saying one thing or the other, otherwise you'd have provided a page reference to the rule: "No NPC, no matter what his role, can have an Edge of only 1." |
Actually what was said was that it was below average even for a metahuman.
As for page references to rules, I thought they'd be unnecessary, but for completion's sake, here's a nice one: the chart on p.62 SR4 describes the Human Attribute range according to which 3 = Typical (meaning that a metahuman would be 2). Here's also a quote from the Attribute text from the same page: "Standard range of natural human attributes is rated on a scale of 1 to 6, with 3 being average." These quotes are backed at several points in the rest of the book, but are born out by the stats of the contacts in the NPC section (Friends or Foes).
| QUOTE |
| How come I'm the one quoting the rules, here? Where are your page references? Please show me where it's impossible for Joe Average to have an Edge of 1, and I'll concede the point. |
This is where you seem to have a problem. Joe Average as used in a good example should be, well, average. Otherwise he'd be Joe Below-Average. If the rules say that a typical human has natural Att ratings of 3 this means that an average example human has Edge 3 (2 for a metahuman). The example would be equally skewed if you'd used an Edge 5 human.
Some page references and examples are noted above.
| QUOTE | ||
Please reread what I wrote. To me, it does not run *significantly* faster; and people who like faster systems still aren't finding SR4 to be fast enough to bump off their favorite games. |
I hate quoting myself but sometimes it seems necessary:
| QUOTE |
Even those people who don't like SR4 recognize it runs faster and is more coherent than SR3 |
See any reference to other game systems? No? Good, cause I didn't make any. I've played SR with Prime Time Adventures (nice little indy game, about 13 pages worth of rules) and I've yet to see a faster system than that. It didn't feel much like Shadowrun but that's the point. I wasn't comparing to nWoD, SW, D20 or any other system. I was comparing to SR3 - especifically a system designed for the gameworld.
| QUOTE | ||
Let's start with some specifics, then. SR3 uses shadowtalk more-or-less consistently throughout the book, and has similar slang used in most fiction/IC pieces. Sr4 opens with Buzzkill, which uses strictly modern slang; then the opening chapter fiction flips back and forth between extreme slang, to none at all. There is no way around this one: it's poor design, stemming from a lack of coherent vision of the world. |
Some terms will remain in use, others (which were adopted to suit the sensibilities of a different market than today's) will be dropped. As more fiction comes out it'll become more obvious what remains and what doesn't.
| QUOTE |
| Matrix slang is a specific subset. Instead of being close to terms from earlier editions of Shadowrun, or any other piece of speculative fiction, you can use the WinXP user's manual to accurately define just about every term. So, while Sr1-3 drew on the vision of Gibson, Sterling, and Stephenson; Sr4's matrix is based on the imagination of Bill Gates. |
To a lot of people the use of current terms to describe what were previously abstract mechanics worked well, myself included. If SR4's Matrix is based on the imagination of Bill Gates it just validates the cyberpunk more that the megacorps always win.
| QUOTE |
| Sr1-3 also spends time focusing on one setting: Seattle. Now, from an experienced player point of view, a wide approach is usually good; they can fill in the details more readily. This approach also works well for those who are looking for a good generic system. However, for a new player, it's best to have a small, easy-to-grasp, setting. By your own admission, the goal of Sr4 was to present an entire world in the core book. This is much harder to absorb than a single place. Sr4 may have more overall content, but it's spread out much further, resulting in less detail and immersion. Focusing on one core place in detail, and loosely sketching everything else as a placeholder for future supplements, is the truly "newbie friendly" way to go. |
Go figure, the market says otherwise - none of the current 6 best selling game settings includes a core location in the way you describe (to wit: AD&D20, D20 Modern, nWoD, Exalted, GURPS and Shadowrun), and from what I've heard neither does Cyberpunk 3.0.
Your opinion is also contradicted by the feedback from players at cons and seminars who prefered general setting (rather than world) information as opposed to a specific location backdrop. But hey, FanPro should probably be listening to you rather than everybody else...
| QUOTE | ||
I've given a few in this post, but to continue: in the "Life on the Edge" chapter, there's 14 pages of text. Of those, roughly 5 are primarly concerned with the new Matrix. About one page is dedicated to magic, 2 1/2 deal with the Megacorps, 1 deals with organized crime, 1 deals with metahuman issues, 2 pages dedicated to everyday life, and the rest deals with various miscellany. In "A history lesson for the reality impaired", two whole pages are dedicated to the Crash 2.0 and the Wireless matrix; the original crash gets about 3/4 of a column, and Dunkelzan's election and will gets even less than that. The Great Ghost Dance gets less than half a paragraph. |
Yup. It was a hard call to cut down on the history, but then again feedback on SSG had established that most players would have liked that information in the BBB and that the intricate history contributed to outsider's perception that SR had too intricate a backstory for most new gamers... and since it fit in with other surprises FanPro has in store it was decided to focus on the feel and elements of everyday life rather than on the (now-distant) past.
| QUOTE |
| Clearly, the developers felt that the wireless matrix should get most of the spotlight time. Which is fine and dandy, except that they still did too much ret-conning. They would have been much better off going with an "Ultimate Shadowrun" approach; following in the same general themes, while restarting from scratch and excising the worst of the heavy metaplot. As it stands, there's still far too much metaplot to make the game accessible, and not enough in the core book to make things interesting. |
I think you may be confusing a focus on the role the matrix plays in everyday life with actual focus on its wireless iteration. In many ways I found the "Life on the Edge" material reminiscent to the material in Target: Matrix in that it addressed how everybody used the Matrix rather than just deckers.
Care to provide examples of retconning? I've yet to notice any, let alone anything even remotely on the scale of what happened between SR1 and SR2, and between SR2 and SR3, but I may have missed something.
| QUOTE | ||
Poorly. Or rather, not nearly as good as it could have been, and not for the reasons you're thinking. |
Been there, discussed that. Sales and renewed interest from both the industry and gamers bear me out.
| QUOTE |
| Basically, look at some of the most enduring games and settings on the market; none of them have required as extensive of a facelift. Forgotten Realms, for example, is still noticeably the same place as it ever was. |
You seem to be conveniently forgetting the FR's God War and the Times of Trouble transition between AD&D1 and AD&D2 (which included not only major changes to the setting but also to the rules). Or the rules changes involved in the new D20 Faerun campaign setting. But hey, whatever bakes your cookie.
How about Cyberpunk 3.0 as a comparison? Or Ars Magica? Or maybe nWoD? Or Trinity D20? Or Deadlands? They're all enduring cult faves that have required a facelift (in several of cases more than one)...
| QUOTE |
| Also, you've highlighted my problem: Shadowrun has attempted to go from classic cyberpunk/fantasy, to neo-cyberpunk with fantasy elements. It also did not need a new system to revitalize itself; what it did require was a cleanup of the old system. |
That's the thing isn't it. It's your problem. As usual, it's your not-so-humble opinion. FanPro on the other hand went with all the feedback from players, stores and industry partners and came up with a different answer. And what d'ya know? It's paid off (and its continuing to pay off).
| QUOTE |
| I'll grant that SR3 suffered badly from rules-creep, but I've yet to see any guarantee that SR4 will not fall into that same mold. In fact, given the number of supplements already planned, it's possible that the rate of rules creep will be even faster and more imblanaced than ever before. |
As I've mentioned before in this and other threads: there's rules creep and there's percieved rules creep. SR3 suffered from both. As I've also mentioned SR4 isn't intended to be a rules-lite system. FanPro has never said it was. What was said is that it would be lighter than SR3 and so far it's been borne out.
SR3's major flaw in this regard was the proliferation of subsystems and special case mechanics. Just by streamlining the core subsystems SR4 has done away with a lot of problems.
A game and setting like Shadowrun's demands a certain level of complexity, the trick is balancing the need for complexity with fluidity and simplicity. If the same mechanic can unfold into multiple applications (eg. a set of design rules that use the same principle and base mechanic whether you're developing a new foci, or a new jammer, or a new type of program) then you are cutting down on rules creep. From my privileged POV, I've seen the effort going into this aspect of development and I know its a primary design priority. Maybe we'll be able to discuss this again when Street Magic comes out.
Shadowrun is intended to remain a moderately complex system, just one that's lighter and more agile than SR3.
| QUOTE | ||
That's exactly the problem. There's more information, but less detail. As a result, it's not as rich; it's not as immersive, it's not as meaningful, it's just flat-out not as entertaining. There's a framework, yes; and granted, no other SR BBB ever tried to provide a worldwide framework. However, this is *not* a good thing, especially for newer players. It's better to have provided a core setting with a sketchy framework, than a generic framework with no core |
.
Surprise, surprise, I disagree. And apparently the bigger RPG publishers do too as I've noted above. You're confusing the intention to provide "generic" information with "worldwide" information. The BBB does not provide location-based information be it local or worldwide. The information is generic in that it portrays the basic elements of street life in the 70's and can be adjusted to fit (almost) any geographic backdrop.
Regardless, the new players coming on board have indicated no such problem (possibly because they're not coming with 3 editions worth of expectations as to the depth of the setting).
Surprise, surprise, I disagree. And apparently the bigger RPG publishers do too as I've noted above. You're confusing the intention to provide "generic" information with "worldwide" information. The BBB does not provide location-based information be it local or worldwide. The information is generic in that it portrays the basic elements of street life in the 70's and can be adjusted to fit (almost) any geographic backdrop.
Regardless, the new players coming on board have indicated no such problem (possibly because they're not coming with 3 editions worth of expectations as to the depth of the setting).
| QUOTE | ||
You're completely wrong on this one. Many *GM's* these days prefer to make things up on the fly, but at least as many like having an established setting, so they can focus on game-specific details. However, almost all the *players* (especially new ones) like having details that quickly immerse them into the new world. This helps players and GMs get on the same page as to the themes, atmospheres, and feel of the game world. You haven't given them one rich setting, you've given them a lot of generic ones: there's no longer any difference between Seattle, Boston, Philadalphia, Detroit, or any other megasprawl. You're mistaking a framework for actual context. |
No what I'm saying is there's a reason why most successful publishers, FanPro included, believe frameworks are enough for basic books and settings should be left for later releases.
| QUOTE |
| Part of my complaint about On The Run was that it's very GM-centered, and not very player-friendly. You're reinforcing that view heavily. Gamemasters do not comprimise all Shadowrun players, or even the majority; but somehow, most of SR4 is heavily GM-focused. |
Strangely, or not, GMs do amount for the vast majority of adventure buyers. Not that those were the specific target of On the Run. The way On The Run was designed was to ensure that GMs were sufficiently comfortable with the rules and plot development to convey the actual story and setting elements to players in the various set pieces. The set pieces were designed to illustrate the various steps in typical shadowruns to players - however, a GM's familiarity with the setting and rules is essential to the experience the players have, hence the backup focus on GM side of things.
| QUOTE |
| And even in the BBB, there's a lot of material that's better for GM's than players. For example, the new Build-a-Tradition rules. From a GM's standpoint, and an advanced player's standpoint, this is a wonderful idea: you can quickly customize out a tradition to fit any concept you might like. However, from a new player's standpoint, this is an ugly mess devoid of life and detail. The two main traditions get about two-thirds of a column apiece, not nearly enough detail to help bring character concepts to life. If you're a GM, this isn't a problem; but if you're new to Shadowrun magic, you're not going to get a feel for it from three sketchy paragraphs. |
Strangely I've had no such problem with the three newbs I've initiated into Shadowrun with SR4. If a GM can't bring the rules to life then it's his problem. I had one of my newbs decide to build his own tradition for a new character a couple of months after starting play. A D20-alumni, he still had no trouble designing a home-bred, fully detailed, Chaos Magic-style variant on hedge witchcraft - with a little guidance from his gamemaster.
| QUOTE |
| My biggest beef, however, is the chargen system. The MCCT was a quick, easy, flexible way of creating a lot of varied characters; it was simple enough for total newbies to grasp in a matter of minutes, yet detailed enough to suit even the most advanced players. In Shadowrun: Missions, you were restricted to MCCT characters only; I never once saw any two characters even come close to one another. SR4 hands you 400 points, and says "Play nice". It doesn't even give you an actual set of directions, it says: "We recommend you start this way, but there is no actual plan, just a bunch of things to buy." Even using a program, I couldn't get experienced gamers to create SR4 characters in less than 2 hours, *excluding* gear. Their biggest complaint was that they weren't ever sure what they were supposed to be doing at what step. |
Again this seems to be a problem with your game. Several people have noted they have no such problem, me being one of them. My group has chargen down to about 20 minutes (without gear and without a computer program). We've never had a problem with the design process, it's simple enough as outlined in the BBB: choose metatype, allocate BPs to Atts, then Skills and then Resources. Go back and fiddle a bit as needed to get things in the desired ranges. Then pick gear.
| QUOTE | ||
You're essentially saying that if FanPro had converted Shadowrun to d20, and made money, it'd consider it an equal success. |
Any good game designer knows that the mechanics have to promote the style of play. Current D20 (or D20 Modern) mechanics would never be appropriate for the type of play the Shadowrun setting demands. Going with D20 would probably have given initial sales a huge boost, but it would have done nothing for the longterm appeal of the game. Fortunately, FanPro decided D20 wasn't the way to go, but rather a system purpose built to play to Shadowrun's strengths.
| QUOTE | ||
That's why an "Ultimate Shadowrun" approach might have worked better. Take free reign to eliminate any legacy issues, while keeping the core intact. For example, grounding was excised in Sr3, without harming the core rules. Unfortunately, there's still a lot of legacy issues in the setting and rules. If the goal was to eliminate them, they failed. |
Again mileage will vary. SR4 addressed most of my issues with legacy elements of the rules resulting from adapting previous mechanics and canon (ie. karma pool/combat pool imbalance, the top-loading Combat Pool issue, inequalities between shamanism, hermeticism, voodoo et al, vehicle combat, otaku, etc)
| QUOTE | ||
Yes, they just run deeper and hit the breaking point faster. |
So you say. This isn't true in my 2 years experience.
| QUOTE |
| The Longshot issue is the best example of this. No one's proposed a simple fix that works; and the complex solutions generally require abandoning fixed TN's, adding a ton of bookwork, or other issues. |
Maybe because people don't think it needs a fix?
As I've mentioned before, I've never had a problem with the Longshot Test RAW. One of my players (Edge 3) used it just last week to make an otherwise impossible shot - a face character with Agility 4 + Automatics 4 (5) with thermal eyes against minimal light, using cover, firing a long narrow burst with RecComp 3, the target (a mage) was hiding behind partial cover at long range. Rolled two hits. Even using Group Edge the mage went down.
| QUOTE |
| Forgotten Realms, for example, is still noticeably the same place as it ever was. |
Time of Troubles = gigantic Forgotten Realms reboot. What SR4 does to the matrix, the Time of Troubles did to huge chunks of the FR pantheon.
| QUOTE |
| Even using a program, I couldn't get experienced gamers to create SR4 characters in less than 2 hours, *excluding* gear. Their biggest complaint was that they weren't ever sure what they were supposed to be doing at what step. |
My experience has been the opposite. Without usigna program at all character generation is very fast. You say there is no process, but the Creating a shadowrunner chapter lays out a very linear process: choose metatype, purchase attributes, acquire skills, qualities, assign resources, finishing touches.
| QUOTE |
| I'll repeat my initial point which you counter-argued: Karma Pool is integral to the game balance of SR3 for NPCs. If comment on the game balance of SR3 without taking that into account your argument is inherently flawed. |
Karma pool was not "integral" to the balance of the game. That much is inherently obvious; jacking up karma pool without jacking up everything else won't accomplish much. On the other hand, a perfectly average character with a high Edge, as you pointed out, gets disgusting in the right circumstances.
| QUOTE |
| Joe Average as used in a good example should be, well, average. Otherwise he'd be Joe Below-Average. |
First, you complain because he's above average. Now, you're complaining because he's below average. Which is it? And since you don't seem to know, it's no surprise that the book isn't clear on that point either.
| QUOTE |
See any reference to other game systems? No? Good, cause I didn't make any. |
If you're going to point out sales as proof of success, then ignore every other game out there, you're seriously ignoring the facts. Many other games run faster, smoother, and easier than SR4; of this, there can be no argument. Saying that SR4 is faster is meaningless unless we establish a level of "significant difference"; in comparison to other games, the significance is not there.
| QUOTE |
| Some terms will remain in use, others (which were adopted to suit the sensibilities of a different market than today's) will be dropped. As more fiction comes out it'll become more obvious what remains and what doesn't. |
You might not have noticed, but the shadowslang/modern slang dichotomy switches back and forth frequently between chapters in SR4. It's not that some terms are used and others aren't; it's that both are in use. That is what stinks of poor design.
| QUOTE |
| To a lot of people the use of current terms to describe what were previously abstract mechanics worked well, myself included. |
As description and metaphor, maybe. As game terminology, intended to convey an immersive experience? No, sorry, it doesn't work. Say "firewall", and you think of Windows XP. Say "Defensive programming", and you're catapaulted into a Gibsonian worldview.
| QUOTE |
| Go figure, the market says otherwise - none of the current 6 best selling game settings includes a core location in the way you describe (to wit: AD&D20, D20 Modern, nWoD, Exalted, GURPS and Shadowrun), and from what I've heard neither does Cyberpunk 3.0. |
I don't have CP3.0, or d20 Modern, but quickly skimming over the others:
AD&D: uses the gods from Forgotten Realms. All "official" supplements are for the Realms. Also, AD&D is a generic system. D20 Modern is the same.
Exalted: Has entire chapters devoted to important cities, places, people, and other core parts of the world. It's got one of the strongest core settings in the games you listed.
NWOD: The main book does not have a setting, but it's also a semi-generic system; the specific genre books do include settings. For example, W:tF is set in the Rockies, and includes an entire chapter on Colorado and Denver.
GURPS: is a generic system. Generic systems, by definition, do not include a setting in the core book, they save that for supplements.
So, of the two that aren't generic systems, both have a very strong and detailed core setting, dedicating at *least* a full chapter to it. Of the rest, one includes some very strong references to a core setting, which is dealt with in supplements.
| QUOTE |
| I think you may be confusing a focus on the role the matrix plays in everyday life with actual focus on its wireless iteration. In many ways I found the "Life on the Edge" material reminiscent to the material in Target: Matrix in that it addressed how everybody used the Matrix rather than just deckers. |
Nope. Again, look at the breakdown of "Life on the Edge". Megacorps are just as much a part of everyday life, and they get about 2 pages. The entire racism theme gets less than a full page. Compare all that to five full pages on the new Matrix.
Or, "A History lesson for the reality impaired": again, two full pages deal specifically with the new matrix and it's wireless form. The entirety of Dunkelzan's presidency, this will, and the Draco foundation, gets about half a page. There's not a single word on "everyday life".
| QUOTE |
| Care to provide examples of retconning? I've yet to notice any, let alone anything even remotely on the scale of what happened between SR1 and SR2, and between SR2 and SR3, but I may have missed something. |
Magic for one, and the entire new matrix for another. Suddenly, every mage can summon and bind spirits; this is handily ignored. Commlinks suddenly appearing on the scene, powering the new matrix, is another: in less than five years, a fractured world has somehow pushed through international legislation, making it so everyone has to carry a commlink broadcasting their SIN, at all times. Five years previously, commlinks didn't even exist; now, they're mandatory. Nothing has ever moved that quickly: even cellphones have taken about fifteen years to reach their current level of popularity.
| QUOTE |
| How about Cyberpunk 3.0 as a comparison? Or Ars Magica? Or maybe nWoD? Or Trinity D20? Or Deadlands? They're all enduring cult faves that have required a facelift (in several of cases more than one)... |
I don't have CP3.0 or Ars Magica, and NWOD proves my point: it didn't require a facelif, it required reincarnation. I have Deadlands: Reloaded, and it's still noticeably the same setting as before. It's now built on a working rule set, though.
| QUOTE |
| A game and setting like Shadowrun's demands a certain level of complexity, the trick is balancing the need for complexity with fluidity and simplicity. If the same mechanic can unfold into multiple applications (eg. a set of design rules that use the same principle and base mechanic whether you're developing a new foci, or a new jammer, or a new type of program) then you are cutting down on rules creep. From my privileged POV, I've seen the effort going into this aspect of development and I know its a primary design priority. Maybe we'll be able to discuss this again when Street Magic comes out. Shadowrun is intended to remain a moderately complex system, just one that's lighter and more agile than SR3. |
The problem is this: No version of Shadowrun has ever been "moderately complex". It's always been on the heavy side of the crunch scale. SR4 might have moved it down from: "Very crunchy" to: "almost very crunchy", but it's still a long ways from the "moderately complex" mark. Basic d20-- ignoring the bewildering array of supplements-- is the current standard for "moderately complex", and SR4 falls well on the heavy side of that. Savage Worlds is slightly lighter than basic D20, NWOD about the same, and so on.
SR4 is what happens when you design rules in a vacuum. They look good only when compared to themselves. When compared to a truly unified and streamlined system, Sr4 cannot fairly be called any of those things.
| QUOTE |
| Surprise, surprise, I disagree. And apparently the bigger RPG publishers do too as I've noted above. |
See above. I've got any number of recent and popular books with very detailed core settings, including several of the ones you mentioned.
| QUOTE |
| Strangely, or not, GMs do amount for the vast majority of adventure buyers. Not that those were the specific target of On the Run. The way On The Run was designed was to ensure that GMs were sufficiently comfortable with the rules and plot development to convey the actual story and setting elements to players in the various set pieces. The set pieces were designed to illustrate the various steps in typical shadowruns to players - however, a GM's familiarity with the setting and rules is essential to the experience the players have, hence the backup focus on GM side of things. |
Great. It's a primer on how to create an adventure. And as that, it's not too shabby. However, as an actual adventure, it's very unfriendly to the players. Come on, the opening offer is so vauge as to be an immediate turn-off. As written, the modules isn't very playable; it's a solid GM reference, but not a good scenario to actually run for new players. It's not as bad as the Quick Start rules, but that's not saying much.
| QUOTE |
| Strangely I've had no such problem with the three newbs I've initiated into Shadowrun with SR4. |
Even more oddly, I've had a greater problem with SR vets. Suddenly, they're at sea. I suppose if I handed them everything, instead of letting them choose, it would have been easier.
| QUOTE |
| We've never had a problem with the design process, it's simple enough as outlined in the BBB: choose metatype, allocate BPs to Atts, then Skills and then Resources. Go back and fiddle a bit as needed to get things in the desired ranges. Then pick gear. |
Except for the little line: "Players may pick abilities in any order they choose". And even then, the problem I had specifically boiled down to two things. The first was poor layout, requiring a ton of paging back-and-forth to get any information. For example, the Edges/Flaws list is smack dab in the middle of the chapter; this means if you need any information before or after it, you need to skip over those 10 pages. Additionally, you need to pick certain Edges before you can pick skills or attributes; for example, you need to buy Magician before you can allocate points to Magic, or you need to buy Aptitude before you can allocate your skills.
The second problem was the "go back and fiddle" bit. Every player had their character concept disintegrate at this stage. They all found something that they had overlooked, or didn't work out right, or just didn't fit once they had changed something else. They had to go back and redo several things, forcing a cascade of other changes to take place. This meant they were effectively forced to create the same character two or three times.
As for gear, the way the book describes is a complete and utter nightmare. It is unworkable in the extreme. The way to make gear buying work is to create a wish list, total the costs and divide by 5000, then assign points. Buying first and wringing out points late-- the book method-- is an excellent way to make a character concept break apart.
| QUOTE |
| Any good game designer knows that the mechanics have to promote the style of play. Current D20 (or D20 Modern) mechanics would never be appropriate for the type of play the Shadowrun setting demands. Going with D20 would probably have given initial sales a huge boost, but it would have done nothing for the longterm appeal of the game. |
Your entire premise is that Sales = Success. Well, I'll tell you this: any new edition of a game sells better than any other product in the line. This was the rationale behind D&D 3 and 3.x, and it worked wonders for WotC. Rifts Ultimate is only a minor change from previous editions-- heck, it's nothing but a compliation, really-- and it's selling extremely strongly for Palladium. (Palladium's current troubles have nothing to do with it's sales figures.)
You could have released a mildly reworked version of SR3, and expected success. A cleaned-up and repaired version would have probably done better. Converting to d20 would have probably sold even more strongly than Sr4 is; I'd bet that you'd be bragging about how that was the right move, if that was what happened.
You haven't argued that the mechanics for SR4 are better at supporting the style of play than SR3. You've said it was faster and more coherent; and the proof of the success was in the sales-- *not* the appropriateness. I'll give you faster, but I don't see the coherence; and you've just conceded that d20 would have sold better. That leaves appropriateness, and I think I've shown that there's enough of a change that it may as well have been a d20 conversion.
| QUOTE |
| As I've mentioned before, I've never had a problem with the Longshot Test RAW. One of my players (Edge 3) used it just last week to make an otherwise impossible shot - a face character with Agility 4 + Automatics 4 (5) with thermal eyes against minimal light, using cover, firing a long narrow burst with RecComp 3, the target (a mage) was hiding behind partial cover at long range. Rolled two hits. Even using Group Edge the mage went down. |
You've hit the nail smack dab on the head. Said face could have additionally blindfolded himself, picked up a gun he had no skill in, with no recoil comp, called a shot to bypass heavy security armor, and yodeled the Scottish national anthem, while retaining the exact same chance of success. If he had a higher Edge, he would have scored even more successes.
| QUOTE |
| Without usigna program at all character generation is very fast. You say there is no process, but the Creating a shadowrunner chapter lays out a very linear process: choose metatype, purchase attributes, acquire skills, qualities, assign resources, finishing touches. |
As I pointed out previously, you can't acquire attributes and skills without first assigining Edges/Flaws. You can't assign resources until you already know what you want to buy. Character generation has been agreed-upon by polls here and on RPG.net to take an average of 3 hours or more. This is about average for extremely crunchy games like GURPS and Champions; it's just more proof that SR4 is well removed from the "moderately complex" goal.
I'm going on vacation so this will be my last post for a while.
| QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 3 2006, 07:57 AM) |
| Karma pool was not "integral" to the balance of the game. That much is inherently obvious; jacking up karma pool without jacking up everything else won't accomplish much. On the other hand, a perfectly average character with a high Edge, as you pointed out, gets disgusting in the right circumstances. |
Here's the exact quote from SR3 p. 248:
| QUOTE ( Dice Pools) |
| Karma Pool is the equalizer for many critters and NPCs and should equal the average of the character's Karma Pool, adjusted for the threat level the NPC or critter should represent |
You can say ignore it all you want, it still doesn't make it true. SR3 RAW says it is integral and it is meant to be an equalizer. Whether you like it or not the developers of SR3 intended it to be used as a game balance element.
| QUOTE | ||
First, you complain because he's above average. Now, you're complaining because he's below average. Which is it? And since you don't seem to know, it's no surprise that the book isn't clear on that point either. |
WT...? Please quote where I said any such thing.
In fact, I, and others, have consistently and repeatedly said your example Joe has below average Edge regardless of whether he's metahuman (Edge 2 = average) or human (Edge 3 = average) and that consequently he isn't Joe Average.
| QUOTE | ||
If you're going to point out sales as proof of success, then ignore every other game out there, you're seriously ignoring the facts. Many other games run faster, smoother, and easier than SR4; of this, there can be no argument. Saying that SR4 is faster is meaningless unless we establish a level of "significant difference"; in comparison to other games, the significance is not there. |
You're missing the point. There was no comparison with other game systems because we were comparing to SR3. I made no market comparison because SR4 has already proven its worth as far as I'm concerned by being listed as one of the Top 5 Hot Product by the two biggest game distributors in the biz (I 'll also note SW core makes it in at 10).
I'm willing to bet right now (let's say a copy of each) that Runner Havens, Street Magic and Arsenal will all sellout their entire first printing (typical print run for a core book at any RPG publisher except WotC) within the first 3 months after they hit stores. If you know anything about the business you'll know how rare that is. If any of your arguments hold water the hype will be gone by now and dissappointed fans will be turned off any one of those.
| QUOTE | ||
As description and metaphor, maybe. As game terminology, intended to convey an immersive experience? No, sorry, it doesn't work. Say "firewall", and you think of Windows XP. Say "Defensive programming", and you're catapaulted into a Gibsonian worldview. |
That would be it then. Mileage will vary. Never really liked Gibson myself. More of a Sterling, Stephenson and Cardigan fan myself.
All I can say is that the current terminology has finally crystalized many Matrix concepts in my players minds where SR1-3 repeated failed to do so. With SR4 I regularly have a hacker in play (something rarely seen in SR3) and no small part of that comes from a better grasp of what's going on.
| QUOTE | ||
I don't have CP3.0, or d20 Modern, but quickly skimming over the others: AD&D: uses the gods from Forgotten Realms. |
Wow, good one. Maybe because they're completely generic, and because their big new setting (Eberron) wasn't out yet. We'll see if they keep them when AD&D4 hits.
And for the record the official setting for most of AD&D's run was Greyhawk. Forgotten Realms came in at the tail end and was quickly reshuffled with the Times of Trouble.
| QUOTE |
| All "official" supplements are for the Realms. |
This is incorrect, I suggest you look at their 2006 product page. Realms RPG accessories are clearly labeled as such. BTW - Eberron as a setting has had more RPG releases than the Realms for the past couple of years.
All "official" supplements are in fact entirely generic and I challenge you to prove otherwise. WotC itself graphically distinguishes the covers of the generic material from the Realms covers.
| QUOTE |
| Also, AD&D is a generic system. D20 Modern is the same. |
Yup, but both are generic systems that promote a certain style of play and hence a certain type of setting.
| QUOTE |
| Exalted: Has entire chapters devoted to important cities, places, people, and other core parts of the world. It's got one of the strongest core settings in the games you listed. |
And yet Exalted had/s offers no central location/setting as you described above, it simply has lots of geographic and political information that's necessary since its a completely unique and fantasy world but otherwise no local details either (or at least no more than "Life on the Edge" gives).
| QUOTE |
| NWOD: The main book does not have a setting, but it's also a semi-generic system; the specific genre books do include settings. For example, W:tF is set in the Rockies, and includes an entire chapter on Colorado and Denver. |
SR4 supplements will also contain detailed locations, where the base book doesn't. See Runner Havens.
| QUOTE |
| GURPS: is a generic system. Generic systems, by definition, do not include a setting in the core book, they save that for supplements. |
But the fact that Generic systems are amongst the biggest sellers is also quite telling of what current gamers expect and desire..
| QUOTE |
| So, of the two that aren't generic systems, both have a very strong and detailed core setting, dedicating at *least* a full chapter to it. |
You get each game's equivalent of "Life on the Edge" with more geography thrown in to introduce what is a fantasy world. Neither present a single core setting where you get the name of the local police contractor or cool haunts for NPCs.
| QUOTE |
| Of the rest, one includes some very strong references to a core setting, which is dealt with in supplements. |
Just like SR4.
| QUOTE | ||
Nope. Again, look at the breakdown of "Life on the Edge". Megacorps are just as much a part of everyday life, and they get about 2 pages. The entire racism theme gets less than a full page. Compare all that to five full pages on the new Matrix. |
Just because you parrot something doesn't make it true. You mention 5 pages on the new Matrix. I count maybe 2 (under the header Welcome to the Machine) as compared to the 3 given the megacorps. Could you please point out where the other 3 pages on the new Matrix have gone?
| QUOTE | ||
Magic for one, and the entire new matrix for another. Suddenly, every mage can summon and bind spirits; this is handily ignored. |
Actually this was one of the things that was prepped back in SOTA64 and fully integrated into the setting.
| QUOTE |
| Commlinks suddenly appearing on the scene, powering the new matrix, is another: in less than five years, a fractured world has somehow pushed through international legislation, making it so everyone has to carry a commlink broadcasting their SIN, at all times. Five years previously, commlinks didn't even exist; now, they're mandatory. |
This was another element that was duly prepared. Back in 2064 Erika and Transys were working on WMI 'link prototypes to be marketed in 2065 (DotSW and SOTA64).
Furthermore, there is no such legislation in effect worldwide and I challenge you to produce a quote.
| QUOTE |
| Nothing has ever moved that quickly: even cellphones have taken about fifteen years to reach their current level of popularity. |
We've never had a world driven by megacorporate greed and standards. The corps stand to recoup their losses from the Crash by cashing in on the new Matrix and they're going to take their time about it? I don't think so. Also as cellphones demonstrate cost was always a factor in the popularity, commlinks are significantly cheaper than their deck predecessors.
| QUOTE | ||
I don't have CP3.0 or Ars Magica, and NWOD proves my point: it didn't require a facelif, it required reincarnation. I have Deadlands: Reloaded, and it's still noticeably the same setting as before. It's now built on a working rule set, though. |
Your point was that established games don't need facelifts I was simply pointing to many examples which underline that the game developers don't agree with you about the need (regardless of the later success of those changes).
For the record I have Deadlands: Reloaded and Deadlands too and setting-wise its gone through as least as many changes as SR3 to SR4. Rules wise the changes are even bigger.
| QUOTE |
| The problem is this: No version of Shadowrun has ever been "moderately complex". It's always been on the heavy side of the crunch scale. SR4 might have moved it down from: "Very crunchy" to: "almost very crunchy", but it's still a long ways from the "moderately complex" mark. Basic d20-- ignoring the bewildering array of supplements-- is the current standard for "moderately complex", and SR4 falls well on the heavy side of that. Savage Worlds is slightly lighter than basic D20, NWOD about the same, and so on. |
Mileage will vary. My players think its on par with nWoD and Trinity.
| QUOTE |
| SR4 is what happens when you design rules in a vacuum. They look good only when compared to themselves. When compared to a truly unified and streamlined system, Sr4 cannot fairly be called any of those things. |
I disagree, nothing new there. SR4 was not designed in a vacuum, it had SR3 as a reference, and it is in regards to SR3 that its been streamlined and unified.
| QUOTE | ||
See above. I've got any number of recent and popular books with very detailed core settings, including several of the ones you mentioned. |
Only if you include supplements. But we've got those too.
| QUOTE |
| Great. It's a primer on how to create an adventure. And as that, it's not too shabby. |
Actually its primarily a primer on how to run an adventure, with easy to modify ready-to-use set pieces.
| QUOTE |
| However, as an actual adventure, it's very unfriendly to the players. Come on, the opening offer is so vauge as to be an immediate turn-off. As written, the modules isn't very playable; it's a solid GM reference, but not a good scenario to actually run for new players. It's not as bad as the Quick Start rules, but that's not saying much. |
I agree it has its problems, nothing as big as the First Run scenarios, but it's also easily tailored to different groups and play styles.
| QUOTE | ||
Even more oddly, I've had a greater problem with SR vets. Suddenly, they're at sea. I suppose if I handed them everything, instead of letting them choose, it would have been easier. |
See my comments about expectations above. Veterans bring their luggage with them. Newbs do not. Maybe they'll have an easier time when they see the stuff in Street Magic.
| QUOTE | ||
Except for the little line: "Players may pick abilities in any order they choose". And even then, the problem I had specifically boiled down to two things. The first was poor layout, requiring a ton of paging back-and-forth to get any information. |
Strangely enough the catch-all chart at the end of the chapter works well enough for us. You just look up any Qualities you might want and the rest of the BP costs are right there. Then again I'm pretty familiar with the rules by now and I usually help the process along.
| QUOTE |
| For example, the Edges/Flaws list is smack dab in the middle of the chapter; this means if you need any information before or after it, you need to skip over those 10 pages. Additionally, you need to pick certain Edges before you can pick skills or attributes; for example, you need to buy Magician before you can allocate points to Magic, or you need to buy Aptitude before you can allocate your skills. |
I've yet to encounter a situation where a player doesn't start chargen knowing whether he's going building a technomancer, magician, adept or mystic adept (or a metahuman for that matter). In which case he automatically allocates the requisite Quality BPs per the chart at the end of the chapter and then gets on with building the character. Once you've played for a while even the Qualities become easy to allocate.
| QUOTE |
| The second problem was the "go back and fiddle" bit. Every player had their character concept disintegrate at this stage. They all found something that they had overlooked, or didn't work out right, or just didn't fit once they had changed something else. They had to go back and redo several things, forcing a cascade of other changes to take place. This meant they were effectively forced to create the same character two or three times. |
This has never happened to me. Shift a point or two of Atts, reduce a skill to increase another, yes. Break a character, no. Of course if the player is adamant his character should have 4 skill groups at rating 4 and won't compromise on that Agility at 6 then yeah I can see where that would be a problem. Fortunately my players know how to play with the limitations the rules impose.
| QUOTE |
| As for gear, the way the book describes is a complete and utter nightmare. It is unworkable in the extreme. The way to make gear buying work is to create a wish list, total the costs and divide by 5000, then assign points. Buying first and wringing out points late-- the book method-- is an excellent way to make a character concept break apart. |
Unless of course you have a grasp of what the gear does and which is vital to your character concept going in and account for it when you get to resources. A GM familiar with the rules can speed that part significantly.
| QUOTE | ||
Your entire premise is that Sales = Success. |
Nope. My premise is sustained sales = customer satisfaction and continued interest. I do happen to believe that sustained sales are also a good sign of a game line's potential longevity and popularity.
Going D20 might have given SR4 a sales boost to begin with but it would have killed the game in the long run.
A system's popularity can't be measured by out-the-door sales, that's seriously conditioned to hype and marketing. However, if a game continues to sell well for over a year in today's market, and interest doesn't flag after the initial buzz and after word-of-mouth gets to work, that is a clear sign of popularity IMHO.
| QUOTE |
| Well, I'll tell you this: any new edition of a game sells better than any other product in the line. |
This is an overgeneralization and its also a false statement. I compared only corebooks for a reason. nWoD has sold significantly less than either Vampire 2nd or Werewolf 2nd in its first couple of years of release. The last iteration of CoC (the one with the D20 version) also sold worse than Chaosium's previous core editions. I could go on.
| QUOTE |
| This was the rationale behind D&D 3 and 3.x, and it worked wonders for WotC. Rifts Ultimate is only a minor change from previous editions-- heck, it's nothing but a compliation, really-- and it's selling extremely strongly for Palladium. (Palladium's current troubles have nothing to do with it's sales figures.) |
You've misunderstood my point. A while back someone compared SR4 charting on Drivethrurpg with Cyberpunk (a direct competitor). Its been a 3 months now and SR4 is still in the top 10 holding against new releases while Cyberpunk isn't. While this Drivethrurpg is certainly not representative of the brick and mortar market, friends in major hobby distributors are telling me the same with hardcopy sales (ie. SR is one of the rare products with sustained sales for over a year).
| QUOTE |
| You could have released a mildly reworked version of SR3, and expected success. A cleaned-up and repaired version would have probably done better. Converting to d20 would have probably sold even more strongly than Sr4 is; I'd bet that you'd be bragging about how that was the right move, if that was what happened. |
All those options were likely considered and discarded - I wasn't in on development. FanPro gambled on SR4.
| QUOTE |
| You haven't argued that the mechanics for SR4 are better at supporting the style of play than SR3. You've said it was faster and more coherent; and the proof of the success was in the sales-- *not* the appropriateness. |
I'll do so now then: SR4 mechanics are at least as good at supporting my style of play as SR3's and their streamlining and cohesiveness makes them the better choice.
| QUOTE |
| I'll give you faster, but I don't see the coherence; and you've just conceded that d20 would have sold better. That leaves appropriateness, and I think I've shown that there's enough of a change that it may as well have been a d20 conversion. |
So you say. I disagree. I think its perfectly appropriate to the setting. Then again I see a cohesiveness and I see a system that works, where you don't.
| QUOTE | ||
You've hit the nail smack dab on the head. Said face could have additionally blindfolded himself, picked up a gun he had no skill in, with no recoil comp, called a shot to bypass heavy security armor, and yodeled the Scottish national anthem, while retaining the exact same chance of success. If he had a higher Edge, he would have scored even more successes. |
Here's the thing though. Hits don't mean success and I have no problem with extremely lucky individuals making a shot on luck alone regardless of skill or aptitude.
An Edge 6 character will (on average) get only 2 hits unless he gets really lucky, on the other side of the equation (assuming Combat), there's a character with the option of full defense dodge and the use of his Edge (including burning Edge) to counter the lucky shot (if he's got an average metahuman Edge of 2 he'll be throwing just as many dice). One character's luck counteracts another's, just like skill counteracts skill. Even lucky character's aren't assured hits. I like it that way.
| QUOTE |
| As I pointed out previously, you can't acquire attributes and skills without first assigining Edges/Flaws. You can't assign resources until you already know what you want to buy. Character generation has been agreed-upon by polls here and on RPG.net to take an average of 3 hours or more. |
From the posts on the Dumpshock poll, I'm willing to bet that if I run a poll on DSF asking how long it takes to build a basic character with basic gear rather than a full-fledged character with backstory and a two page listing of gear I think the results would be different.
| QUOTE |
| As description and metaphor, maybe. As game terminology, intended to convey an immersive experience? No, sorry, it doesn't work. Say "firewall", and you think of Windows XP. Say "Defensive programming", and you're catapaulted into a Gibsonian worldview. |
You do realize that firewalls were around before Windows XP, and that it's a generic term, not specific to Microsft, don't you?
| QUOTE |
| making it so everyone has to carry a commlink broadcasting their SIN, at all times. |
Reread the rules, as that statement is patently untrue.
| QUOTE |
| Basic d20-- ignoring the bewildering array of supplements-- is the current standard for "moderately complex", and SR4 falls well on the heavy side of that. |
lol
| QUOTE |
| it's very unfriendly to the players. Come on, the opening offer is so vauge as to be an immediate turn-off. As written, the modules isn't very playable; it's a solid GM reference, but not a good scenario to actually run for new players. It's not as bad as the Quick Start rules, but that's not saying much. |
Having run it I have to disagree.
| QUOTE |
| Even more oddly, I've had a greater problem with SR vets. Suddenly, they're at sea. I suppose if I handed them everything, instead of letting them choose, it would have been easier. |
Their inability to let go of old habits when using a new system could be the problem here. If you ignore everything you knew about SR1-3 character creation and just follow the steps in the book you may see that it goes a lot faster than a couple of hours.
| QUOTE |
| As for gear, the way the book describes is a complete and utter nightmare. It is unworkable in the extreme. The way to make gear buying work is to create a wish list, total the costs and divide by 5000, then assign points. Buying first and wringing out points late-- the book method-- is an excellent way to make a character concept break apart. |
Never had a problem with it myself. YMMV
| QUOTE |
| Your entire premise is that Sales = Success. |
What other basis for success is a company supposed to use? Sales gives the only meaningful account of new users, customer satisfaction, and popularity.
| QUOTE |
| Converting to d20 would have probably sold even more strongly than Sr4 is; I'd bet that you'd be bragging about how that was the right move, if that was what happened. |
He already said that it would have sold better, but that it would have been the wrong move. And he said it right there in the paragraph you quoted. LOL
| QUOTE |
| That leaves appropriateness, and I think I've shown that there's enough of a change that it may as well have been a d20 conversion. |
LOL again. Thank you for this post, it's very entertaining.
| QUOTE |
| You've hit the nail smack dab on the head. Said face could have additionally blindfolded himself, picked up a gun he had no skill in, with no recoil comp, called a shot to bypass heavy security armor, and yodeled the Scottish national anthem, while retaining the exact same chance of success. If he had a higher Edge, he would have scored even more successes. |
Please. There are tons of threads out there with you getting smacked around about Edge while every once in a while accidentally making a point. A point that isn't as powerful as you insist it is, but a point nonetheless. Why not avoid derailing this discussion and go revisit one of those threads if you're keen on having another longshot debate?
| QUOTE |
| s I pointed out previously, you can't acquire attributes and skills without first assigining Edges/Flaws. |
Incorrect. Your experiences obviously differ, but you can most definitely buy attributes and skills before buying qualities. Perhaps I should rephrase that: "everyone I have gone through the chargen process with can. Your inability does not speak to a general inability."
| QUOTE |
| You can't assign resources until you already know what you want to buy. |
Wrong again. Making an "I want" list is one way to do it. Deciding how much you'll spend and then budgeting it out is another way. Neither is really better than the other, as each one lends itself to a different type of character.
| QUOTE |
| AD&D: uses the gods from Forgotten Realms. All "official" supplements are for the Realms. Also, AD&D is a generic system. D20 Modern is the same. |
Buzzzzz!!! Wrong again! Official supplements are either a) generic, b) for FR, or c) for Eberron. The primary supplements (Races of __, Complete __, etc) are all incredibly generic. They sometimes include a nod to another setting, but are far from being setting specific.
Going back to AD&D (either edition) also shows that generic books were generic. Most of the "Complete Book of ___" books had no setting specific materials in them whatsoever. Monstrous Compendiums were seperated by generic releases and those meant for SR, Planescape, Spelljammer, Ravenloft, etc.
| QUOTE |
| There was no comparison with other game systems because we were comparing to SR3. I made no market comparison because SR4 has already proven its worth as far as I'm concerned by being listed as one of the Top 5 Hot Product by the two biggest game distributors in the biz (I 'll also note SW core makes it in at 10). I'm willing to bet right now (let's say a copy of each) that Runner Havens, Street Magic and Arsenal will all sellout their entire first printing (typical print run for a core book at any RPG publisher except WotC) within the first 3 months after they hit stores. If you know anything about the business you'll know how rare that is. If any of your arguments hold water the hype will be gone by now and dissappointed fans will be turned off any one of those. |
SR4 is also listed as dead by another source, but we've been over that. I'll also say that I've seen the same copies of SR4 and On the Run sitting on the same FLGS shelves for months now. Back in the day, one guy commented on how his entire order disappeared the day it showed up. So, if the entire print run sells out at the retail level within the first week, you'll be right. Otherwise, you're running theoretical numbers against actual players.
| QUOTE |
| And yet Exalted had/s offers no central location/setting as you described above, it simply has lots of geographic and political information that's necessary since its a completely unique and fantasy world but otherwise no local details either (or at least no more than "Life on the Edge" gives). |
My copy has a section on the major city of Nexus, a great deal more heavily than any other single area. I'd say it qualifies as a core setting.
| QUOTE | ||
SR4 supplements will also contain detailed locations, where the base book doesn't. |
NWOD is also a generic system. If you look at what people are actually playing-- Vampire, Werefolf, Mage-- you'll see heavy core setting included. Vampire includes a whole chapter on New Orleans, for example.
| QUOTE |
| But the fact that Generic systems are amongst the biggest sellers is also quite telling of what current gamers expect and desire.. |
Which is probably why SR4 was designed to be more generic in feel and mechanics; at getting the genric feel, it succeded remarkably. Unfortunately, it still lacks the flexibility to compete with a truly good generic system on those levels. In Shadowrun, you're playing shadowrunners; try to play anything else, and everything breaks down quickly. I can introduce a wider array of character concepts into the insanity that is Rifts, and expect them to integrate more smoothly and efficiently on both a setting and rules level.
| QUOTE |
| You get each game's equivalent of "Life on the Edge" with more geography thrown in to introduce what is a fantasy world. Neither present a single core setting where you get the name of the local police contractor or cool haunts for NPCs. |
SR1-3 didn't get quite that detailed, either; they mentioned Lone Star as a contractor, but never went past tourist sites. However, Vampire: The Requiem not only goes over a 400-year history of New Orleans, it lists specific places of interest, has almost a full page dedicated to a single holiday (Carnival) and breaks down the town district-by-district. W:tF does something similar. Note also that these two *books* are outselling the entirety of Sr4 by a wide margin.
| QUOTE |
| Just because you parrot something doesn't make it true. |
Sorry, but denying it doesn't make it false, either. Basically, despite the fact that you claim the focus was on everyday life, the biggest focus of the book is: "Look how cool the new Matrix is!" Many other things were totally ignored or discarded. For example, previous editions of Shadowrun were unafraid of bringing up major issues. In fact, the problem wasn't that Shadowrun kept hitting the issues button; the problem was more that it hit it repeatedly and often with a great big hammer.
SR$ completely avoids issues wherever it can. Case in point: the entire loss of privacy brought on by the new matrix could have been an entire core theme, a cornerstone for a bold re-imagining of Shadowrun. Instead, we get a few mumbled lines about how shadowrunners dodge it. So, not only are many of the 80's themes removed, new ones aren't replacing them.
| QUOTE |
| Actually this was one of the things that was prepped back in SOTA64 and fully integrated into the setting. |
It was something mentioned in a few paragraphs on the Unified magical theory. Not "fully integrated", and not explained at all in SR4. I defy you to show me that shamans had developed the ability to bind spirits in Sota64.
| QUOTE |
| Furthermore, there is no such legislation in effect worldwide and I challenge you to produce a quote. |
Page 210-211. Also, page 259: "Commlinks, Credsticks, and ID".
| QUOTE |
| I disagree, nothing new there. SR4 was not designed in a vacuum, it had SR3 as a reference, and it is in regards to SR3 that its been streamlined and unified. |
Bingo! It was only compared to SR3. Which means, the big selling point amount to this: "It doesn't suck as much as before." Clearly, the system needed to be compared to something else; you've just conclusively proven that the devs only used a single point of reference. And not even a full version of that, according to certain playtester reports.
| QUOTE |
| Actually its primarily a primer on how to run an adventure, with easy to modify ready-to-use set pieces. I agree it has its problems, nothing as big as the First Run scenarios, but it's also easily tailored to different groups and play styles. |
Not *that* easily tailored, but it's not horrid, I agree. The problem is that it's a mediocre WoD adventure, and not a solid Shadowrun one. The GM stuff is solid, though. However, it requires a decker, and virtually ignores magic; you can also get by without a combat bunny. I do, however, agree that it beats out the First Run scenarios by a wide margin.
| QUOTE |
| Strangely enough the catch-all chart at the end of the chapter works well enough for us. You just look up any Qualities you might want and the rest of the BP costs are right there. |
And as you pointed out, it only works once you've already figured out everything. Of course, since the book makes it highly difficult to learn everything, the chart is basically worthless. Even after creating over a dozen sample characters, and walking about that many people through it, I can't get any practical use out of that chart. A sidebar would have worked much better. Additionally, putting the edges/flaws in their own section in the back of the chapter would have been a great deal more efficient.
| QUOTE |
Unless of course you have a grasp of what the gear does and which is vital to your character concept going in and account for it when you get to resources. |
Which also presumes that you've got the exact prices for everything memorized. If you don't, you'll screw yourself over by being off more than a BP or two. And I don't think anyone here is claiming that they have every last piece of gear memorized.
| QUOTE |
| Hits don't mean success and I have no problem with extremely lucky individuals making a shot on luck alone regardless of skill or aptitude. An Edge 6 character will (on average) get only 2 hits unless he gets really lucky, on the other side of the equation (assuming Combat), there's a character with the option of full defense dodge and the use of his Edge (including burning Edge) to counter the lucky shot (if he's got an average metahuman Edge of 2 he'll be throwing just as many dice). One character's luck counteracts another's, just like skill counteracts skill. Even lucky character's aren't assured hits. I like it that way. |
I've already put up the example demonstrating how this is incorrect. Basically, a person with a high Edge can take out a Citymaster with a shot from a flechette-only pistol. Once you get into burning Edge, you get into even more problems; the force-12 Sprite being slapped around like a red-headed stepchild is probably the worst example, but there are many more.
| QUOTE |
| lol |
I was going to get into more point-by-point refutations, but the problem is this: when someone thinks "lol" is a logical argument, there's really not much hope for them. When someone thinks it's the Ultima ratio regium, and uses it repeatedly, it really shows a frightening lack of rationality. But, I'll hit one very important point:
| QUOTE |
| Having run it I have to disagree. |
Having not only run it, but tested it thouroughly and published a review on it, I have to say that "I disagree" has got to be the weakest excuse for an argument I've ever seen. Even its fans agree that it's got some noticeable problems. The adventure is unfriendly to players, although I presume that a self-absorbed GM would never notice. If you're paying attention to your players, the spots where they have difficulty are going to be obvious. For example, rather than GM-hammering them into accepting the mission based on virtually no information, I gave them extra hooks and leads, so the mission didn't seem quite as hopeless right out of the gate.
On The Run, for the reasons I've enumerated, is a respectably solid GM's reference guide with a mediocre example of play. As an adventure, however, it basically fails on mulitple levels. It's overly matrix-focused, the first major combat scene is a nightmare when it comes to pacing, magic feels like an afterthought, and the deep dark secret is that Elvis Did It. It's just another vampiric plot storyline in the end, which means it's a WoD plot, and not a Shadowrun one.
| QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 4 2006, 07:04 AM) |
| SR4 is also listed as dead by another source, but we've been over that. I'll also say that I've seen the same copies of SR4 and On the Run sitting on the same FLGS shelves for months now. Back in the day, one guy commented on how his entire order disappeared the day it showed up. So, if the entire print run sells out at the retail level within the first week, you'll be right. Otherwise, you're running theoretical numbers against actual players. |
Time to squeeze in a post before I board - I see you dropped the whole initial part of the post Cain, pity.
I'm not sure which source you're talking about but if its what I think it is, I think you may be confusing industry pundits with actual distributors. Regardless, sales will tell.
| QUOTE | ||
My copy has a section on the major city of Nexus, a great deal more heavily than any other single area. I'd say it qualifies as a core setting. |
I stand corrected. My copy does too.
| QUOTE | ||||
NWOD is also a generic system. If you look at what people are actually playing-- Vampire, Werefolf, Mage-- you'll see heavy core setting included. Vampire includes a whole chapter on New Orleans, for example. |
Right. NWOD, generic, right. It's not designed so you can specifically play supernatural beings in a gothic world filled with supernatural entities...
How about this then plug AD&D20 PG with the Eberron setting book and it's no longer "generic." Of course you're buying two books and twice the number of pages to stuff material in but hey, physical size doesn't really affect content does it?
By that logic, I should add that SR4 + Runner Havens is an alternative to V:tR + nWoD and the combo contains comparatively more setting information on the proposed core locations (Seattle and HK).
| QUOTE | ||
Which is probably why SR4 was designed to be more generic in feel and mechanics; at getting the genric feel, it succeded remarkably. Unfortunately, it still lacks the flexibility to compete with a truly good generic system on those levels. |
That's the thing. It isn't competing for the generic system market, SR has always been and will continue to be a setting driven system. It's game mechanics, however, are now more appealing to that wider generic system audience than they were before - which is something entirely different.
| QUOTE |
| In Shadowrun, you're playing shadowrunners; try to play anything else, and everything breaks down quickly. I can introduce a wider array of character concepts into the insanity that is Rifts, and expect them to integrate more smoothly and efficiently on both a setting and rules level. |
Again, this is your ungrounded opinion as far as I'm concerned. In SR4 so far I've run a series of adventures with the characters in prison (limited cyber, limited hacking, limited magic), a go-ganger campaign, and a Lone Star detective unit. I'm hoping to run my players through the upcoming Emergence campaign as a corporate black ops team. Had no problems with any of the above (and only had to adjust BPs for the ganger campaign).
| QUOTE | ||
SR1-3 didn't get quite that detailed, either; they mentioned Lone Star as a contractor, but never went past tourist sites. However, Vampire: The Requiem not only goes over a 400-year history of New Orleans, it lists specific places of interest, has almost a full page dedicated to a single holiday (Carnival) and breaks down the town district-by-district. W:tF does something similar. |
Right. No flaw in that comparison. Buying two core books vs. one core book. Especially when I can now buy SR4 and Runner Havens?
Were the scale of WW and FanPro operations comparable, how's this for a comparison:
V:tR + nWoD = 518 pages of content
SR4 = 354 pages of content
(SR4 + Runner Havens= 496 pages = total cost about the same as the nWoD pair contingent on retail discount)
| QUOTE |
| Note also that these two *books* are outselling the entirety of Sr4 by a wide margin. |
This might have something to do with the fact that WotC and WW together account for 80% of total sales in the RPG market. That WW despite the slump still accounts for about 25%. Or the fact that you need both to actually play (just like D20 strangely enough). Or that WW is big enough to boast a significant marketing team.
Why not compare with R.Talsorian? Or SJG? Or even AEG's Spycraft 2.0 since all of those are actually operations more or less on FanPro's level?
| QUOTE | ||
Sorry, but denying it doesn't make it false, either. Basically, despite the fact that you claim the focus was on everyday life, the biggest focus of the book is: "Look how cool the new Matrix is!" Many other things were totally ignored or discarded. |
That's your opinion, and again its wrong. You seem far more fixated than the book on the new Matrix. I suggest you take another good look at the Life on the Edge section.
| QUOTE |
| For example, previous editions of Shadowrun were unafraid of bringing up major issues. In fact, the problem wasn't that Shadowrun kept hitting the issues button; the problem was more that it hit it repeatedly and often with a great big hammer. SR$ completely avoids issues wherever it can. Case in point: the entire loss of privacy brought on by the new matrix could have been an entire core theme, a cornerstone for a bold re-imagining of Shadowrun. Instead, we get a few mumbled lines about how shadowrunners dodge it. So, not only are many of the 80's themes removed, new ones aren't replacing them. |
Okay, here's where I call BS. You , as a lot of people I've heard from in the past few months, seem to be confusing the BBBs with the rest of the material released under each edition.
Let's turn off our bias filters and have a good look at those issues - let's take a couple (one of which you brought up as having been hit with "a great big hammer in previous editions"). I've taken just two, but feel free to name more "issues" or "themes" that were removed or reduced I'll be glad to compare (when I get back). (Note: I'm comparing information/content and not comparing the quality of the writing, because that's a question of taste - it goes without saying where my personal preference lies).
SR1 BBB
SINs and Privacy
Fluff = Nothing I could find on the relevance of a SIN or valid ID in daily life.
Rules = Nothing (this stuff came in SSC and NAGRL)
Metaracism
Fluff = UGE + Goblinization (1/2 page and a paragraph). EuroAir 329, Alamos 20k, MOM (2 paragraphs and a line under policlubs).
Rules = no racism modifiers or suggestion thereof in the Social Skill rules text or charts.
SR2 BBB
SINs and Privacy
Fluff = Nothing I could find on the relevance of a SIN or valid ID in daily life.
Rules = Nothing (later covered in SSC2 and SR Companion)
Metaracism
Fluff = UGE + Goblinization (1 page), EuroAir 329, Alamos 20k, MOM (2 paragraphs and a line under policlubs, no "Night of Rage" yet - pretty much cut and pasted from SR1)
Rules = no racism modifiers or suggestion thereof in the Social Skill rules text or charts.
SR3 BBB
SINs and Privacy
Fluff = Nothing I could find on the relevance of a SIN or valid ID in daily life.
Rules = SINs, IDs, personal data and faking it - 2 full pages
Metaracism
Fluff = UGE (1 paragraph) + Goblinization (down to 2 paragraphs), "Night of Rage" greatly expanded to a 1/2 page).
Rules = First mention of racism modifiers in the Social Skill rules text (1/2 page) plus modifiers.
SR4 BBB
SINs and Privacy
Fluff = Matrix 2.0 and Big Brother is Watching (1 page), In The Family/corporate citizenship (1 paragraph), Advertising (let's say the invasion of privacy stuff amounts to about 1 para)
Rules = SINs, IDs, personal data and faking it - 3 full pages
Metaracism
Fluff = UGE (1 paragraph) + Goblinization (holding at 2 paragraphs), "Night of Rage" and Alamos 20k holding at 1/2 page under Hate and Brotherhood (content more or less the same as SR3). Life on the Edge adds 1/2 pages on metaracism under "We Ain't Heavy".
Rules = Racism is streamlined into Prejudice in the Social skill rules and in the modifiers.
So no. As far as I'm concerned you're wrong. The BBB have always treated any theme or issue lightly at best, and SR4 has delved further than any other previous edition.
| QUOTE | ||
It was something mentioned in a few paragraphs on the Unified magical theory. Not "fully integrated", and not explained at all in SR4. I defy you to show me that shamans had developed the ability to bind spirits in Sota64. |
Like SR3 explained out how all those spell grounding effects everyone had experienced under SR2 were in fact illusions or flukes? Or how you could now dig through astral earth and living auras - you know all that stuff that meant the corps had to chuck out all the astral defensive measures they had in SR1-2?
Or maybe you mean like Channeling must have been limited to shamans in SR3 because it was first mentioned under koradji shamans in T:AL? Or how any new patented spell formula is impossible to translate to another tradition? Or new metamagics are unknown and spread slowly?
Not that a new player would give a damn for all he knows magicians have always called 5 spirits and been able to summon and bind.
This is precisely the sort of luggage I was saying is affecting your perception of the game. If someone needs an desperately needs an explanation to make sense of it all: UMT got its first results in 2063, someone got a Nobel in 2065, and this lead to a paradigm shift among the Awakened over the next 5 years.
| QUOTE |
| Furthermore, there is no such legislation in effect worldwide and I challenge you to produce a quote. |
Page 210-211. Also, page 259: "Commlinks, Credsticks, and ID".
I've read both thoroughly and find no mention of worldwide or even local legislation making it mandatory or punishable by law (harassed yes, penalized no).
The only examples of "mandatory" active PANs are high security areas which would have required ID/SIN checks anyway (airports, corporate facilities). And even in these cases there is nothing to suggest it is illegal to not have a commlink or active PAN - just that it will bring attention on you (same as if a SINless was approached by police and asked for his SIN in SR3).
| QUOTE | ||
Bingo! It was only compared to SR3. Which means, the big selling point amount to this: "It doesn't suck as much as before." Clearly, the system needed to be compared to something else; you've just conclusively proven that the devs only used a single point of reference. |
Again with the twisting, I'd be really grateful if you stopped twisting my words. Did I say "only used SR3 as a reference"? No. Any other deduction is yours, so no I have not proven anything "conclusively".
| QUOTE |
| And not even a full version of that, according to certain playtester reports. |
I'm not even sure what you're saying here.
It seems like you're saying that a full version of SR3 wasn't used as a reference which is laughable. If you're suggesting that not all the rules were playtested I call on you to prove your allegation. I was a playtester and I had access to the various the rules and final drafts right through to the proof-reading stage.
Only two playtesters I know have broken their Non-Disclosure Agreements to comment on SR4 playtesting and neither of those playtested the game for more than a couple of months and neither was involved in playtesting the final rule set.
| QUOTE | ||
Not *that* easily tailored, but it's not horrid, I agree. The problem is that it's a mediocre WoD adventure, and not a solid Shadowrun one. The GM stuff is solid, though. However, it requires a decker, and virtually ignores magic; you can also get by without a combat bunny. I do, however, agree that it beats out the First Run scenarios by a wide margin. |
Nice to see you can twist even a homage to SR2 to make your point.
| QUOTE | ||
And as you pointed out, it only works once you've already figured out everything. Of course, since the book makes it highly difficult to learn everything, the chart is basically worthless. Even after creating over a dozen sample characters, and walking about that many people through it, I can't get any practical use out of that chart. A sidebar would have worked much better. Additionally, putting the edges/flaws in their own section in the back of the chapter would have been a great deal more efficient. |
Again, your problem with the rules. I and others have no such problems. The 100+ playtesters indicated no such problems. So you'll understand if I don't agree.
| QUOTE | ||
Which also presumes that you've got the exact prices for everything memorized. If you don't, you'll screw yourself over by being off more than a BP or two. And I don't think anyone here is claiming that they have every last piece of gear memorized. |
Actually no, though we are pretty familiar at eyeballing the resources needed for the core 10-15 cyber/gear most runners take. The players also share their information as they buy things up (ie. I'm taking the camo armored jacket - anyone else want that? It's 5k with all the options). But normally we just look up the core gear that's really needed for the character (wired reflexes, augmentations etc, basic weapons, etc) and then fill that out with extra detail/gear later. We actually do this for the whole group at more or less the same time which means we cut down on look-up time for different individuals with the same gear/cyber. If money gets tight they go back and adjust an att or skill to get the extra cash but none of those tweaks would "break" a character concept.
My players have also calculated the package cost of a fully loaded off-the-shelf commlink and everybody buys that (well, except for the adept who couldn't afford it). That also saves time.
| QUOTE |
| I've already put up the example demonstrating how this is incorrect. Basically, a person with a high Edge can take out a Citymaster with a shot from a flechette-only pistol. Once you get into burning Edge, you get into even more problems; the force-12 Sprite being slapped around like a red-headed stepchild is probably the worst example, but there are many more. |
To the best of my knowledge the first example is just blatantly impossible under SR4 core rules (no pistol in the BBB has a modified DV capable of piercing a Citymaster's armor per RAW, with or without Edge use) and the chances of the second ever happening are near impossible too (the sprite only has to use the 4-1 trade in rule to counter a lucky attack but it has other options too). I'm willing to take your examples apart if you provide your calculations.
| QUOTE |
| Right. No flaw in that comparison. Buying two core books vs. one core book. Especially when I can now buy SR4 and Runner Havens? Were the scale of WW and FanPro operations comparable, how's this for a comparison: V:tR + nWoD = 518 pages of content SR4 = 354 pages of content (SR4 + Runner Havens= 496 pages = total cost about the same as the nWoD pair contingent on retail discount) |
But was there a
| QUOTE | ||
Nice to see you can twist even a homage to SR2 to make your point. |
You know what I love about On the Run? That thinking in context of Year of the Comet, there are people who became famous simply for being changelings, and yet a man who was written as a 21st century Jim Morrison/Elvis rock legend has to resort to using idoru 22 years after he's been infected because, well, because I guess. Yes, what an homage.
| QUOTE |
| Even after creating over a dozen sample characters, and walking about that many people through it, I can't get any practical use out of that chart. |
Having created only 3 characters (about 12 total including my whole group) I find the chart to be incredibly useful, and easy to understand / apply to character building. Obviously YMV.
| QUOTE |
| I was going to get into more point-by-point refutations, but the problem is this: when someone thinks "lol" is a logical argument |
You're confusing an attempt at a logical argument with amusement at how silly you can be. But that's just part and parcel with your overall silliness. Wait for it... Wait for it... Here it comes... Now! -> lol
| QUOTE |
| Having not only run it, but tested it thouroughly and published a review on it, I have to say that "I disagree" has got to be the weakest excuse for an argument I've ever seen. |
Again, mistaking a statement for an argument. "I disagree" means "I think you're wrong." It doesn't mean (nor is it intended to mean "I think for wrong for the following reasons: ___." You also keep saying you've "posted reviews" about things, as if that somehow matters. I could run around to a bunch of sites and post review saying SR4 is even greater than sliced bread but that wouldn't make it true, nor would it give my opinions any weight. You're trying to put yourself into a position of importance and argue from there, but it doesn't work.
| QUOTE |
| For example, rather than GM-hammering them into accepting the mission based on virtually no information, I gave them extra hooks and leads, so the mission didn't seem quite as hopeless right out of the gate. |
Ignoring the insults: My players didn't need that extra push. They started doing their legwork and got through it with only a few minor hitches, none of which were because of the adventure itself. Your experiences obviously differ, but that doesn't make them "right."
| QUOTE |
| It's overly matrix-focused, the first major combat scene is a nightmare when it comes to pacing, magic feels like an afterthought, and the deep dark secret is that Elvis Did It. |
I didn't find any of that to be true. The group didn't even have a hacker in it, and managed to work around the matrix bits anyway. The fact that it didn't have a major magical bad guy(s) doesn't mean magic was an afterthought, it means magic was not an integral part of the storyline. That kinda makes sense, given that it's about tracking down a really old piece of tech.
| QUOTE |
| It's just another vampiric plot storyline in the end, which means it's a WoD plot, and not a Shadowrun one. |
It has a vampire in it, but that's about the extent of its ties with WoD. There's none of the angsty artistic vampirism, just a guy that happens to be a vampire. He could have been totally normal and just faked his death and it would have worked just as well. If there being a vampire in it makes it WoD in your eyes, that's just an example of your narrow view on "The World According to Cain."
| QUOTE |
| In Shadowrun, you're playing shadowrunners; try to play anything else, and everything breaks down quickly. I can introduce a wider array of character concepts into the insanity that is Rifts, and expect them to integrate more smoothly and efficiently on both a setting and rules level. |
Untrue. I've run mercenary and ganger campaigns. I know people who've run police campaigns (some on this very board). There was even an entire book of alternative campaign runs including Lone Star operatives, Mercenaries, DocWagon teams, and one or two others I can't remember offhand. Your inability to do something does not equate to a general inability to do it.
| QUOTE |
| Note also that these two *books* are outselling the entirety of Sr4 by a wide margin. |
You're comparing large companies with lots of people and big advertising budgets to two guys with a dream. I think they're doing really well.
| QUOTE |
| But was there a nine month delay between VtR and nWoD? |
I've found the delays in printing much easier to take when viewed in a measure of man hours. The rest of the numbers are made up. I could probably find them online but exact numbers aren't necessary to make the point. If White Wolf puts out V:tR 4 months after nWoD core and has 6 developers working on them 40 hours a week they've used 3,840 man hours to get that product out the door. If Shadowrun takes 9 months between RH and SR4 and has 2 guys working 30 hours per week they used 2,160 man hours to get the book out the door.
I think the 30 hours a week is close to right, given they've got multiple games to get out the door but probably spend more than 40 hours at work per week. Six guys at 4 months is probably way off for WW, as I've got no idea what their staffing levels are or how long the core supplements for Mage, Vamps, and Weres were in development. Someone in the know could correct that, but again the exact numbers aren't necessary.
Depending on the staffing and time usage at WW FanPro might be comparatively faster than WW in getting supplements out.
See, if Fanpro really wanted to shock the shit out of the industry and the fans (and even moreso, people like me who don't mave much if any regard for SR4) the release schedule for the period between Gencon 2005 and end of Q4 2006 would look like the release schedule for Shadowrun in 1989-90: That is, 16 books including the rule book (with adventure), GM screen (released the same year, and with adventure), and even DMZ. In 1989 alone they released SR1, GM Screen, SSC, DNA/DOA, Mercurial, Dreamchipper, and Queen Euphoria. In 1990 they released Sprawl Sites, Seattle, NAGNA, PAoNA, The Grimoire, DMZ, The Universal Brotherhood, Bottled Demon, and Harlequin.
Granted, they had the benefit of years of prep time building the game from scratch (hence the term "shock the shit out of..."), but maybe it's just me. If they really wanted to revolutionize the game then I don't see where it'd hurt to be a bit more ready to unleash a torrent of stuff rather than SR4 and On the Run between Gencon 2005 and Origins 2006.
Granted, they had the benefit of years of prep time building the game from scratch (hence the term "shock the shit out of..."), but maybe it's just me. If they really wanted to revolutionize the game then I don't see where it'd hurt to be a bit more ready to unleash a torrent of stuff rather than SR4 and On the Run between Gencon 2005 and Origins 2006.
How many people did FASA have working on the project back then? An escalated print run like that just isn't possible with current staffing levels, and would make playtesting just some whimsical notion of what should have been.
For the original topic: it's about 2:1 in favor of fixed target numbers here. The ratio on the poll in the main board was closer to 50/50.
| QUOTE |
| Right. NWOD, generic, right. It's not designed so you can specifically play supernatural beings in a gothic world filled with supernatural entities... |
NWOD is indeed generic; very few players are using solely the core book. Really, what you have is a two-book system; you need two books to play one game. VtR,MtA, and WtF are all separate games that share a core mechanic. Shadowrun is a single game; NOWD is an entire game line. And what's selling the games within the NOWD line is the richness of the setting. SR4 lacks that, by your own argument.
| QUOTE |
| That's the thing. It isn't competing for the generic system market, SR has always been and will continue to be a setting driven system. It's game mechanics, however, are now more appealing to that wider generic system audience than they were before - which is something entirely different. |
Trnaslation: they stripped out a lot of the unique mechanics, to give the game a more generic feel, in an attempt to gain more sales. Once again, this is essentially the same thing as a d20 conversion.
| QUOTE |
| Again, this is your ungrounded opinion as far as I'm concerned. In SR4 so far I've run a series of adventures with the characters in prison (limited cyber, limited hacking, limited magic), a go-ganger campaign, and a Lone Star detective unit. |
You're still playing shadowrunners. Compare this to the options availiable in a freeform GURPS game (where you can play literally *anything*, side-by-side), or Savage Worlds, or d6, or even RIFTS to a degree. In those games, you can have caped super heroes running right alongside street gangers, and have it fit both the setting and the rules. Sorry, but the options availiable in Shadowrun simply cannot compare with the options availiable in even a mediocre generic game system, and is completely blown away by the major ones.
| QUOTE |
| Okay, here's where I call BS. You , as a lot of people I've heard from in the past few months, seem to be confusing the BBBs with the rest of the material released under each edition. Let's turn off our bias filters and have a good look at those issues - let's take a couple (one of which you brought up as having been hit with "a great big hammer in previous editions"). I've taken just two, but feel free to name more "issues" or "themes" that were removed or reduced I'll be glad to compare (when I get back). (Note: I'm comparing information/content and not comparing the quality of the writing, because that's a question of taste - it goes without saying where my personal preference lies). |
Back in the late 80's, the question of privacy wasn't really a major issue. It wasn't until the advent of the internet and identity theft that it became a hot-button topic. As a result, it wasn't really an issue in SR1-3, because it wasn't an issue in the real world. SR4 could have dealt with it head-on, and made it into a core theme; insetad, it avoided and handwaved it.
But if we look at the themes from the original era, the differenc becomes clear. I count about five pages on metaracism in SR1; but more importantly, I see almost a full page on the politics of genocide. The entire "re-education camps" gets less than a paragraph in SR4, and Executive Order 17-321 isn't mentioned at all. Additionally, the history in SR4 reads more like a textbook than the immersive, rich stories in Sr1: the details of the back room tapes, for example, really hammer the Lone Eagle crisis home.
| QUOTE |
| The only examples of "mandatory" active PANs are high security areas which would have required ID/SIN checks anyway (airports, corporate facilities). And even in these cases there is nothing to suggest it is illegal to not have a commlink or active PAN - just that it will bring attention on you (same as if a SINless was approached by police and asked for his SIN in SR3). |
Check the sidebar on p 211. It was a "violation" to travel in hidden mode; so not having one would be at least as bad, probably worse.
| QUOTE |
It seems like you're saying that a full version of SR3 wasn't used as a reference which is laughable. If you're suggesting that not all the rules were playtested I call on you to prove your allegation. I was a playtester and I had access to the various the rules and final drafts right through to the proof-reading stage. |
I'm saying that multiple viewpoints were ignored and/or unconsidered. That shows up in the mechanical instabilties. Additionally, practically within minutes of the release of SR4, the multiple-commlink tactics were being spread all over Dumpshock; something the core rules don't really address, but hands a character the advantage in spades.
| QUOTE |
| The 100+ playtesters indicated no such problems. |
You mean: "The playtesters who didn't quit in utter disgust".
| QUOTE |
Actually no, though we are pretty familiar at eyeballing the resources needed for the core 10-15 cyber/gear most runners take. The players also share their information as they buy things up (ie. I'm taking the camo armored jacket - anyone else want that? It's 5k with all the options). But normally we just look up the core gear that's really needed for the character (wired reflexes, augmentations etc, basic weapons, etc) and then fill that out with extra detail/gear later. We actually do this for the whole group at more or less the same time which means we cut down on look-up time for different individuals with the same gear/cyber. If money gets tight they go back and adjust an att or skill to get the extra cash but none of those tweaks would "break" a character concept. |
You still need to know, in advance, exactly how much you're going to spend. Should you go over, you have to go back and steal points from elsewhere; but there's nothing that you can spend 1 point on previously. If you adjust an att or skill, you've now got an excess of points, which forces an additional reallocation. And if you forget one piece of gear, or miscalculate badly enough, the entire concept might just break down and require a restart. For example, I had a rigger who bought all his drones, but forgot to buy a commlink and a car to drive around in.
| QUOTE |
| To the best of my knowledge the first example is just blatantly impossible under SR4 core rules (no pistol in the BBB has a modified DV capable of piercing a Citymaster's armor per RAW, with or without Edge use) and the chances of the second ever happening are near impossible too (the sprite only has to use the 4-1 trade in rule to counter a lucky attack but it has other options too). I'm willing to take your examples apart if you provide your calculations. |
The first one is easy. Mr. Lucky needs to take out the Citymaster chasing their van, so he aims through the window at the driver (Specifically aiming at a passenger, pg 162). He's using an AVS (8P-f), and our modifiers are as follows: -2 recoil, -3 extreme range, -3 for being seriously Wounded, -3 for being in a moving vehicle, -6 for his target having total cover, -1 for his cover, and -2 for the light rain. To top this all off, he calls a shot to bypass the armor of both the vehicle and the driver. Assuming the driver was in heavy armor with helmet, that's an additional -12, and then we factor in the Citymaster's armor of 20. That's a total dice pool penalty of -52. It could be worse than that-- Mr Lucky might not have a pistols skill at all-- but it's largely irrelevant, since there's absolutely no way he's going to have a positive dice pool. He now spends a point of Edge. 8 Edge = 2.66 successes, which rounds up to 3. The driver can't use his vehicle skill to dodge, since he was specifically targeted; and he requires a Perception test at -6 to even notice that he's been hit. Assuming that the driver has a body of 3, he'll be taking an 11P wound, and will score 1 success-- not enough, he'll be taken out instantly. The vehicle will now need to make a crash test: it has a threshold of 3, using a Pilot of 3, and a handling penalty of -1. It fails, crashes, and likely kills everyone inside.
The second one deals more with the summoning rolls for a sprite than a combat test, although they're similar. Basically, by burning a point of Edge, you score an automatic critical success. A critical success is defined as scoring four or more *net* successes, above and beyond what you need. This also allows you to add whatever flourish or finishing touch you wish. (Critical success, p59.)
So, when conjuring the sprite, the otaku goes for the most powerful one he can summon (he has Resonance 6, so it's force 12), and spends Edge on the roll. Natch, he fails, so he now burns a point of Edge. Regardless of how many successes the spirit rolled, the otaku has gotten 4 more, so he's gained 4 services out of it. For his flourish, he describes beating the matrix godling around like a red-headed stepchild, dressing it in drag, and loading it into a dikoted AVS.
And yes, he does a repeat on the Drain roll. Granted, this trick has got some significant limits on it; but one of the biggest ones is likely to be lifted in the near future. Once the rules appear for reducing the base time for a task, the otaku will be able to Bind that sprite, and *that* will cause serious balance issues. For 9 karma, you've got four services out of a matrix demigod.
| QUOTE |
| My players didn't need that extra push. They started doing their legwork and got through it with only a few minor hitches, none of which were because of the adventure itself. |
Generally, my players require motivations and goals that are meaningful to their character. Being handed a needle-in-a-haystack run, they felt, would damage their reputations if they failed, and they had no good chance of success. Generally, my players have come to expect more out of me than: "Here's what I've got, we're going with it because it's all I have." They expect me to involve their characters on a deeper level than that.
| QUOTE |
| The group didn't even have a hacker in it, and managed to work around the matrix bits anyway. The fact that it didn't have a major magical bad guy(s) doesn't mean magic was an afterthought, it means magic was not an integral part of the storyline. |
That's just it: They had to work around it, not work with it. Additionally, it's not even the lack of a magical bad guy that's the problem: magic is hardly even mentioned until almost the end of the game. Up until that point, it could have been a cyberpunk game. Heck, you could excise the magic from that part, and it wouldn't change it too terribly much.
| QUOTE |
| It has a vampire in it, but that's about the extent of its ties with WoD. There's none of the angsty artistic vampirism, just a guy that happens to be a vampire. |
It has an angsty artistic vampire playing a political game to push pawns around. That's a core WoD theme. It's the same thing if you said "Shadowrun Power Armor" or "Shadowrun Drow", it's still an element from another game line that doesn't belong. If you happen to like Gundams in your Shadowrun game, that's fine; but then you've proven that you're definitely not playing the same Shadowrun the rest of us are. Which might explain some of the misconceptions you're having.
| QUOTE |
| The first one is easy. Mr. Lucky <snip> |
Yawn! The edge issue has several of it's own threads, why not resurrect one of those?
| QUOTE |
| Generally, my players require motivations and goals that are meaningful to their character. |
Usually my players, especially with starting shadowrunners, tend to take jobs that are offered and pay money. That's generally what shadowrunners do after all...
| QUOTE |
| That's just it: They had to work around it, not work with it. |
A group without a hacker will always have to work around matrix issues. That's not a problem with On the Run, it's a problem with a group that opts not to play a hacker.
| QUOTE |
| It's the same thing if you said "Shadowrun Power Armor" or "Shadowrun Drow", it's still an element from another game line that doesn't belong. |
It's not the same thing. SR has vampires. SR has political maneuvering. It doesn't have power armor and drow (although it might have dark elves in some sourcebook somewhere).
| QUOTE |
| If you happen to like Gundams in your Shadowrun game <snip> |
Irrelevant post, as the only one mentioning Gundams is you.
| QUOTE |
| Usually my players, especially with starting shadowrunners, tend to take jobs that are offered and pay money. That's generally what shadowrunners do after all... |
That must be it, then. My players tend to not be in the "I kill them and take their stuff" camp. If you're having fun with it, that's cool; it's just not the only way to play.
Besides which, avoiding a job that smells like a setup or just isn't worth it is just smart roleplay.
| QUOTE |
A group without a hacker will always have to work around matrix issues. That's not a problem with On the Run, it's a problem with a group that opts not to play a hacker. |
You can't force people into playing a decker, so it's not a group problem. However, several older adventures suggested various ways of getting around the no-decker thing. On The Run makes no such suggestion; it just blithlely assumes that you'll have a decker or otaku.
| QUOTE |
It's not the same thing. SR has vampires. SR has political maneuvering. |
It doesn't have angsty artistic vampires using political maneuvering to get pawns to do their bidding. Shadowrun deals best with certain themes, and other themes are better handled in other games. The vampiric plot storyline is a WoD trope, and Elvis the Elder Vampire just doesn't work in Shadowrun.
| QUOTE |
| That must be it, then. My players tend to not be in the "I kill them and take their stuff" camp. |
There you go with the conclusions again. Nobody (except you), mentioned a "kill them and take their loot" mentality. Shadowrunners tend to work for money. Shadowrunners fresh to the game tend to take whatever they're offered that isn't obviously stupid, because that's how you gain rep and how you get the better jobs. On the Run was neither obviously stupid nor smelled like a setup.
| QUOTE |
| You can't force people into playing a decker, so it's not a group problem. However, several older adventures suggested various ways of getting around the no-decker thing. On The Run makes no such suggestion; it just blithlely assumes that you'll have a decker or otaku. |
Ever heard of hiring NPCs? Works great for temporarily filling roles that nobody made a character for.
| QUOTE |
| It doesn't have angsty artistic vampires using political maneuvering to get pawns to do their bidding. |
Angsty? The guy was definitely a vampire. He definitely used maneuvering. That's not WoD, that's smart business practices. Your inability to see past your blinders doesn't make one equal the other.
| QUOTE |
| just doesn't work in Shadowrun. |
Ah yes, the patented Cain "if I don't like it, it doesn't work in Shadowrun." Sad really, but it takes all kinds.
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 3 2006, 09:00 AM) | ||
You do realize that firewalls were around before Windows XP, and that it's a generic term, not specific to Microsft, don't you? |
I actually don't associate Firewalls with any MS products, but then again I am an old unix guy so I am a bit biased against windows systems.
None of the new computer terms in SR4 are new, they all existed prior to SR1, though they are used much more in normal conversation and are seen less as technical jargon per se.
Also say "defensive programming" I think of lots of different types of defensive program and infrastructure, which a fire wall is one of. It would be similar to not calling the walls around a compound and instead calling them defensive structures, which could be all sorts of things but doesn't really tell me much.
| QUOTE |
| Nobody (except you), mentioned a "kill them and take their loot" mentality. Shadowrunners tend to work for money. Shadowrunners fresh to the game tend to take whatever they're offered that isn't obviously stupid, because that's how you gain rep and how you get the better jobs. On the Run was neither obviously stupid nor smelled like a setup. |
It depends on the intelligence of your players, and the GM, I suppose. Other people here have mentioned that the setup was very sparse, and intelligent runners (read: paranoid
) will pick up on the lack of info. I mean, it basically goes like this:"I want you to find an unmarked disk. No, I'm not going to tell you what's on it. No, I'm not going to given you any clues to who might have it. No, I'm not going to tell you why it might hav been stolen. No, I'm not going to tell you what distinguishes this particular disk from a blank CD. What do you mean, you don't want the job? There's only a hundred million unmarked disks in the city, skilled runners such as yourself should have no problem."
Shadowrunners who want to have a lifespan of more than a day or two will automatically be suspicious of any run. Having a Johnson who is handing out virtually no information is usually a bad sign.
| QUOTE |
| Angsty? The guy was definitely a vampire. He definitely used maneuvering. That's not WoD, that's smart business practices. |
Whee! We now have angsty artistic CEO vampires! Wow, that means it can't possibly be WoD at all!
Sorry, but to all longstanding players of Shadowrun, the unique Shadowrun themes stand out quite strongly. When you put a WoD theme into Shadowrun, it never quite works. I understand that people inexperienced with the system might not notice a difference; but that's because they haven't experienced the full richness that Shadowrun had to offer.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| How many people did FASA have working on the project back then? An escalated print run like that just isn't possible with current staffing levels, and would make playtesting just some whimsical notion of what should have been. |
Uh... Tom Dowd? I guess Sam Lewis and Jordan Weisman, but they also, you know, ran the rest of the company. You act like freelancers didn't exist until 2001. They also relied on a handful of people to produce most of their material *cough*Nigel Findley, Tom Dowd*cough* instead of the current book-by-committee process. Unfortunately, you-know-who failed as a substitute for Findley.
| QUOTE |
| "I want you to find an unmarked disk. No, I'm not going to tell you what's on it. No, I'm not going to given you any clues to who might have it. No, I'm not going to tell you why it might hav been stolen. No, I'm not going to tell you what distinguishes this particular disk from a blank CD. What do you mean, you don't want the job? There's only a hundred million unmarked disks in the city, skilled runners such as yourself should have no problem." |
You could see it that way. If you were not very bright. There aren't a hundred million of them in the city. It's an antique disk. There's far fewer than a hundred million, and an even smaller number out there trying to be sold.
You keep saying he was angsty. I don't have the run in front of me, but I don't remeber ever reading that. He was a vampire who took himself out of the public limelight by faking his death. He's now very protective of the remnants of his wrk, or at least the remnants that were given to a friend and are now about to be given to the world without his permission.
You were complaining earlier that SR can only work with shadowrunners, despite examples to the contrary. Now in just a few posts you've added in powered armor, gundams, and WoD-style vampiric plots but said they aren't the "right" way to play. LOL
| QUOTE |
| I understand that people inexperienced with the system might not notice a difference; but that's because they haven't experienced the full richness that Shadowrun had to offer. |
Nah, it just means they aren't as set in their ways as crotchety old Cain and his "Look at me, I'm always right" banner.
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
It doesn't have angsty artistic vampires using political maneuvering to get pawns to do their bidding. |
Two words for you Cain - Ordo Maximus.
But then again since you're a "longstanding player of Shadowrun" you already know about them, right?
Except replace "angsty artistic" with "stuffy rich upper-class elitist asshole."
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Except replace "angsty artistic" with "stuffy rich upper-class elitist asshole." |
Aka the Ventrue.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| As with any dice system you need to understand how to use it or it won't work very well. The biggest problem with the fixed TN is people treating it like it is a variable TN system. A common example is forgetting that rolling a single hit is not always a success. |
This is my first post on DSF, but I have been reading about everything in this section for about three weeks.
Just a quickie on background, I used to play SR1 a decent amount, about 10-11 years ago (but mostly DnD) and just picked up SR4 about a month ago. I really like it, and even with all arguments I have been reading, I think it is a much better game than what I remembered...I have only run one session so far, but I can already see how the game is going to be a lot less cumbersome.
Anyways, I have to agree with the above post. I really like the fixed target numbers, as its a very easy concept to grasp and run with. I don't know the actual mechanics around it (comparing fixed with threshold vs. variable), but if I need to make something more difficult, I simply add to the threshold...seems easy enough...
It is, but a better method of increasing difficulty is to apply both threshold and dice pool penalties. If you only increase or decrease the threshold then you're effectively giving a +/-3 dice pool modifier, at least on average. By changing the dice pool and the threshold you can get a smoother spread of modifiers, albeit still in 33% increments for Shadowrun. In general using different sized dice and / or a different target number will allow for finer changes in what the percentage difference is when adding and removing dice.
For instance, you could use d20s and a target number of 20 and every die added or subtracted is a change of 5%, but every threshold modifier is a change of 20 effective dice. D8s, d10s, and d6s seem to work the best as they give a fairly decent balance between dice percentages and threshold changes.
I prefer d6 and TN 5 because it minimizes the change in a threshold, and 33% is plenty for me. D8s with TN 7 might work ok as well. D20s with TN 8 is the White Wolf method, and it seems to work well with that system as well, although the presence of exploding dice on each test makes the probabltities different than just straight d10s.
For instance, you could use d20s and a target number of 20 and every die added or subtracted is a change of 5%, but every threshold modifier is a change of 20 effective dice. D8s, d10s, and d6s seem to work the best as they give a fairly decent balance between dice percentages and threshold changes.
I prefer d6 and TN 5 because it minimizes the change in a threshold, and 33% is plenty for me. D8s with TN 7 might work ok as well. D20s with TN 8 is the White Wolf method, and it seems to work well with that system as well, although the presence of exploding dice on each test makes the probabltities different than just straight d10s.
This conversation is silly. 4000+ word posts that boil down to "NO U."
I have the feeling that nobody here is going to admit defeat, even though it looks like the Pro SR4 side consists of, well. Everybody, and the opposing side is, well, Cain.
Is this trip really necessary?
I have the feeling that nobody here is going to admit defeat, even though it looks like the Pro SR4 side consists of, well. Everybody, and the opposing side is, well, Cain.
Is this trip really necessary?
These trips are never necessary, and rarely fruitful. We all knew that when we started packing for it.
well. the pro-SR4 side consists of almost everyone who posts on the SR4 forums, it's true.
| QUOTE |
| There aren't a hundred million of them in the city. It's an antique disk. There's far fewer than a hundred million, and an even smaller number out there trying to be sold. |
Right now, I can walk into any used-record store, and buy a hatful of *eight-tracks*. If you've read the adventure, you'll see that it's described as an optical disk. Antique or not, can you spot the difference between disks at a glance? Can you tell the difference between a CD and a DVD by looking at the disk? What about the difference between a Blu-Ray and a ten year old CD?
| QUOTE |
| You keep saying he was angsty. I don't have the run in front of me, but I don't remeber ever reading that. He was a vampire who took himself out of the public limelight by faking his death. He's now very protective of the remnants of his wrk, or at least the remnants that were given to a friend and are now about to be given to the world without his permission. |
So he's now a Toreador.
Yup, yup, that's a Shadowrun original, right there. | QUOTE |
| You were complaining earlier that SR can only work with shadowrunners, despite examples to the contrary. |
You're still playing shadowrunners. Try adding in military fighter pilots alongside wandering knights alongside caped superheroes. I can do that in Rifts, and rifts is just a hideous mess.
| QUOTE |
| Two words for you Cain - Ordo Maximus. But then again since you're a "longstanding player of Shadowrun" you already know about them, right? |
Quite well; they're also a WoD ripoff, and were called as such from the moment they appeared. They're basically the Ventrue, as you pointed out. I'll also add that ever since Gascione and Sargent left, they've quietly pushed the entire vampire thing under the rug as a bad idea. Gascione and Sargeant tried turning Shadowrun into an angsty goth-horror game, and it failed miserably. When Shadowrun started going back to its roots, under Muvilhill, things started to get a lot better.
mfb : Nah, it's not that easy.
Yes, the fight is Cain vs Synner + James -> 2 : 1 odds, same as the poll
Though they got pretty far off topic and into looking like idiots (though I'm sure they aren't).
The problem for me is still that a decent fixed TN system is better than any crappy variable TN system, sure ... (and I'm NOT talking SR3 vs SR4 here ...)
But a brilliant variable TN system has far more potential than a brilliant fixed TN system.
SR3 (untweaked) is/was 'Crappy Variable TN'
SR3 (houseruled) is/was 'Decent Variable TN'
SR4 (untweaked) is 'Crappy Fixed TN'
SR4 (houseruled) is 'Decent Variable TN'
... and all them are not what I would want : A 'Brilliant Variable TN' system.
Why do I post here ? Why do I play SR4 ?
Because I like the setting !
And because my group decided they wanted to use the 4th ed. rules.
And because SR4 (untweaked) is better than SR3 (untweaked), and SR4 (tweaked) might just turn out to be better than SR3 (tweaked).
But that still leaves all the other points of discussion as valid, though pretty much off the original topic :
- Why the hell is SR4 'Crappy Fixed TN' instead of at least 'Decent Fixed TN' ? They could just have used a good compilation of houserules to make a 'Decent Variable TN'-SR4, but they didn't.
- SR4 Core has more problems and rule inconsistencies than SR3 Core. Did the playtesters sleep through the tests or were their reports not heard ? There seems to be a giant heap of Incompetence and Ignorance, and just for curiosity's sake, I'd like to know how much of it is Developer and how much is Playtester territory.
- SR4 is no real innovation - at best it is an update to cover inconsistencies too bad to be ignored ... most of it the 'modern technology is far more advanced than SR's near-future tech' ... a difficult task, sure, but still no reason not to point out where it was seriously glitched.
- While updating is fine, not including the ingame developments of the uprade is NOT. SR3 had several pages about what happened between SR2 and SR3, SR4 stops where the last SR3 sourcebook (System Failure) left off and has you buy 'Runner Havens' instead - and nearly ONE YEAR after the Core Rulebook ... nothing better I could imagine for a year-long campaing than to be transported from a highly detailed world in the 60s to a 'ummm, yes, looks familiar ... but ... what happend ? how does everything work NOW ?' 2070.
- Diversity vs. Generalization ...
... enough, the list is long enough ...
Oh, btw, IIRC the OT was academical 'Fixed TN' vs. 'Variable TN' - it had NOTHING to do with SR3 vs. SR4 basically, and any answer that is not 'Fixed TN' vs. 'Variable TN' but SRX vs. whoknowswhat misses the entire point.
'Hope I was as successful in make ME look like an idiot as Cain, James and Synner are ... but I guess I'd already gone at least half the way in previous posts.
Oh, a last one : pretty much everyone I know plays SR using SR4 - but not because the system is good, but because the new edition reminded a lot of people how much fun they'd had with previous editions - they'd have bought SR4 with nearly any system that looked viable, aside perhaps a D20 conversion.
But noone who's played it for more than a session or two has ever said it was a Good system, only 'better than SRX' - and I think that is telling.
Yes, the fight is Cain vs Synner + James -> 2 : 1 odds, same as the poll
Though they got pretty far off topic and into looking like idiots (though I'm sure they aren't).
The problem for me is still that a decent fixed TN system is better than any crappy variable TN system, sure ... (and I'm NOT talking SR3 vs SR4 here ...)
But a brilliant variable TN system has far more potential than a brilliant fixed TN system.
SR3 (untweaked) is/was 'Crappy Variable TN'
SR3 (houseruled) is/was 'Decent Variable TN'
SR4 (untweaked) is 'Crappy Fixed TN'
SR4 (houseruled) is 'Decent Variable TN'
... and all them are not what I would want : A 'Brilliant Variable TN' system.
Why do I post here ? Why do I play SR4 ?
Because I like the setting !
And because my group decided they wanted to use the 4th ed. rules.
And because SR4 (untweaked) is better than SR3 (untweaked), and SR4 (tweaked) might just turn out to be better than SR3 (tweaked).
But that still leaves all the other points of discussion as valid, though pretty much off the original topic :
- Why the hell is SR4 'Crappy Fixed TN' instead of at least 'Decent Fixed TN' ? They could just have used a good compilation of houserules to make a 'Decent Variable TN'-SR4, but they didn't.
- SR4 Core has more problems and rule inconsistencies than SR3 Core. Did the playtesters sleep through the tests or were their reports not heard ? There seems to be a giant heap of Incompetence and Ignorance, and just for curiosity's sake, I'd like to know how much of it is Developer and how much is Playtester territory.
- SR4 is no real innovation - at best it is an update to cover inconsistencies too bad to be ignored ... most of it the 'modern technology is far more advanced than SR's near-future tech' ... a difficult task, sure, but still no reason not to point out where it was seriously glitched.
- While updating is fine, not including the ingame developments of the uprade is NOT. SR3 had several pages about what happened between SR2 and SR3, SR4 stops where the last SR3 sourcebook (System Failure) left off and has you buy 'Runner Havens' instead - and nearly ONE YEAR after the Core Rulebook ... nothing better I could imagine for a year-long campaing than to be transported from a highly detailed world in the 60s to a 'ummm, yes, looks familiar ... but ... what happend ? how does everything work NOW ?' 2070.
- Diversity vs. Generalization ...
... enough, the list is long enough ...
Oh, btw, IIRC the OT was academical 'Fixed TN' vs. 'Variable TN' - it had NOTHING to do with SR3 vs. SR4 basically, and any answer that is not 'Fixed TN' vs. 'Variable TN' but SRX vs. whoknowswhat misses the entire point.
'Hope I was as successful in make ME look like an idiot as Cain, James and Synner are ... but I guess I'd already gone at least half the way in previous posts.
Oh, a last one : pretty much everyone I know plays SR using SR4 - but not because the system is good, but because the new edition reminded a lot of people how much fun they'd had with previous editions - they'd have bought SR4 with nearly any system that looked viable, aside perhaps a D20 conversion.
But noone who's played it for more than a session or two has ever said it was a Good system, only 'better than SRX' - and I think that is telling.
While there may be 8-tracks in the record stores, there is only one 8-track being sold through less than reputable sources and auctioned off by someone hiding their identity.
Just because RIFTs can do something doesn't mean Shadowrun should be able to. You could make superheroes in shadowrun if you wanted to witht he proper application of spells, adept powers, and tech. You can make sword swinging knights as well, although you'd need some house rules for archaic armor. Fighter pilots are the easiest to do, especially once SR4 gets the vehicle design rules back. Putting them all in the same campaign could also be done, although I don't know why you'd want to.
SR has businessmen, artists, and people that live in the sewers. SR has vampires. The idea that they would therefor have businessmen, artists, and sewer dwellers that also happened to be vampires is perfectly reasonable. You're well within your rights to think it's a WoD rip off if you want.
Just because RIFTs can do something doesn't mean Shadowrun should be able to. You could make superheroes in shadowrun if you wanted to witht he proper application of spells, adept powers, and tech. You can make sword swinging knights as well, although you'd need some house rules for archaic armor. Fighter pilots are the easiest to do, especially once SR4 gets the vehicle design rules back. Putting them all in the same campaign could also be done, although I don't know why you'd want to.
SR has businessmen, artists, and people that live in the sewers. SR has vampires. The idea that they would therefor have businessmen, artists, and sewer dwellers that also happened to be vampires is perfectly reasonable. You're well within your rights to think it's a WoD rip off if you want.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| So he's now a Toreador. Yup, yup, that's a Shadowrun original, right there. |
Oh, fuck me...
Cain, would you care to give me an example of a type of vampire NPC commonly found in a game that you can't replicate by using a character type from a game about playing vampires?
How about a Chinese Hopping Vampire who detatches his head to throw at his victims like a boomerang, complete with dripping gore?
edit: man, this kinder, gentler thing is hard to do! (ideas spawned by the last couple posts, not thoughts of being rude to the last couple posters).
| QUOTE |
| The problem for me is still that a decent fixed TN system is better than any crappy variable TN system, sure ... (and I'm NOT talking SR3 vs SR4 here ...) But a brilliant variable TN system has far more potential than a brilliant fixed TN system. SR3 (untweaked) is/was 'Crappy Variable TN' SR3 (houseruled) is/was 'Decent Variable TN' SR4 (untweaked) is 'Crappy Fixed TN' SR4 (houseruled) is 'Decent Variable TN' ... and all them are not what I would want : A 'Brilliant Variable TN' system. |
I agree here. Neither system is perfect, far from it. I'm just having trouble with people who seem to think SR4 is the "greatest game EVAH!!1!11" and that it's mechanically perfect. It's not, it has serious holes that need to be examined.
Sr3 had a stabler core, but it also had so many unwieldy add-ons that the whole thing became a mess. Sr4 has an unstable core due to the premise of penalties subtracting from your dice pool.
| QUOTE |
| Just because RIFTs can do something doesn't mean Shadowrun should be able to. |
Bingo! Some things just belong in Rifts, that should never be brought into Shadowrun. The same applies for D&D, WoD, and most other games you care to name. Shadowrun should be about the Shadowrun world, not someone trying to mix stuff in from another game.
| QUOTE |
| Cain, would you care to give me an example of a type of vampire NPC commonly found in a game that you can't replicate by using a character type from a game about playing vampires? |
For one, Otto Chriek. He's definitely not a WoD vampire; he's definitely a parody of them, though. Other examples would be a vampire wageslave, Pyotr from Callahan's Saloon, Sam from Sluggy Freelance, and so on and so forth. Basically, any vampire that doesn't try to be the angsty artsy manipulative type tends to fall out of the WoD purview; and just about every one that does nowadays derives from V:tM/R.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| any vampire that doesn't try to be the angsty artsy manipulative type tends to fall out of the WoD purview |
Kinda like how any character that doesn't try to be the gunslinging, prototype-stealing, murder-for-hire type tends to fall out of the SR purview, despite the number of examples I've seen including playing detectives, gang members, ambulance drivers, and band members? Wow, that explains a lot.
SR isn't a true "generic" system, but it's modular enough that you could run any game you wanted in a modern or near-future setting with only a few house rules. No magic? Magic disappears. No cyber? Cyber disappears. Running a 1930s gumshoe drama? Get rid of a bunch of the tech and the metahumans, and the system still works without much of a hitch.
Military fighter pilots, knights, and caped superheroes alongside each other? The only one of these I can see taking me more than a few minutes to rough-build would be the superhero, and then only because I'd have to choose between a physad and a mystic adept to do his powers.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| I agree here. Neither system is perfect, far from it. I'm just having trouble with people who seem to think SR4 is the "greatest game EVAH!!1!11" and that it's mechanically perfect. It's not, it has serious holes that need to be examined. |
I admit sometimes things slip past me, but I think I would have remembered someone saying that SR4 was the greatest game ever and without flaw. Could you perhaps provide a quote or a link? I'd love the entertainment value to be gained from reading that sort of post.
I'm a little confused about why there's so much discussion of vampire characters in a thread about SR's mechanics.
How a vampire behaves depends on how the storyteller runs the character. If you don't want JetBlack to be an angsty, artsy WoD character, he doesn't have to be.
Make his motivations cynical, he's no artist, he's just good at manipulating emotions. He became a Vampire to live forever, not becaue of fear but to secure his media power properly and for all time.
He employs armed and trained thugs to secure his intellectual property. This guy is hardly genteel.
It seems like people have forgotten the art of characterization in roleplaying games. If a generic archeptypical concept seems generic and archetypical, i.e. being able to reduce a character to the name of a V:tM clan, it means they havn't thought about it enough.
How a vampire behaves depends on how the storyteller runs the character. If you don't want JetBlack to be an angsty, artsy WoD character, he doesn't have to be.
Make his motivations cynical, he's no artist, he's just good at manipulating emotions. He became a Vampire to live forever, not becaue of fear but to secure his media power properly and for all time.
He employs armed and trained thugs to secure his intellectual property. This guy is hardly genteel.
It seems like people have forgotten the art of characterization in roleplaying games. If a generic archeptypical concept seems generic and archetypical, i.e. being able to reduce a character to the name of a V:tM clan, it means they havn't thought about it enough.
Since most of my posts tend to revolve around how easily things can be made workable (not perfect) by simple houserules or GM fiat, it's a bit of a reach to say that I might think SR is mechanically perfect out of the box.
Sorry Nerbert, but that's just another possibility under the WoD umbrella, so would just be a ripoff, no matter how original the GM thought he was being.
| QUOTE |
| For one, Otto Chriek. He's definitely not a WoD vampire; he's definitely a parody of them, though. Other examples would be a vampire wageslave, Pyotr from Callahan's Saloon, Sam from Sluggy Freelance, and so on and so forth. |
So if we make our vampires into laughing stocks that's ok? But anyone that actually wants to use their vampirism to advance their position in life, be it through art, business, magic, or a deeper rapport with animals is stepping into WoD territory? Interesting. Not something I'd agree with, but if it works in your games that's cool.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Quite well; they're also a WoD ripoff, and were called as such from the moment they appeared. They're basically the Ventrue, as you pointed out. I'll also add that ever since Gascione and Sargent left, they've quietly pushed the entire vampire thing under the rug as a bad idea. Gascione and Sargeant tried turning Shadowrun into an angsty goth-horror game, and it failed miserably. When Shadowrun started going back to its roots, under Muvilhill, things started to get a lot better. |
Pushed under the rug, really? Wow, then the mentions of the Ordo from Prime Runners on (Threats, Cybertechnology, Shadows of Europe, etc) are just my imagination then. Not to even mention all the other vampire related material in SR. But wait, vampires were in the original SR1 BBB, which mentions that some vampires refuse to drain from unwilling victims while others revel in their role as hunters! Oh no! Vampires that aren't one dimensional monsters? It must be a V:tM rip off!
Why not take your line of thought further? The anime/manga Hellsing has vampires in a modern setting, so that must obviously be a WOD rip off. Hell, D&D (d20) has vampires (and vampire spawn!) in it, so it must obviously be a rip-off of WOD because everyone knows that White Wolf invented and copyrighted the concept to the vampire
As for your precious Otto Chriek, well, anyone with half a brain can tell he's obviously a Tremere rip-off just from the Discworld wiki entry.
Forgeting totally and conviently that V:tM stole House Tremere from Ars Magica, of course.The point, in case you can't see it, is that just because something has vampires acting like more than cookie cutter bloodsuckers doesn't mean it's a rip off of whatever version or edition of WOD White Wolf is shoveling out nowadays.
===========
On a more civil note, as for Mike Muvilhill getting SR back to it's roots and things looking better, if that's the case why was it deemed necessary to reinvent the rules and setting as SR4 in order to save the line from oblivion? I've got nothing against Mike, but he did not bring SR back to it's roots. If anything he pulled it further away from them. SR3 finished the trend that started in the middle of SR2's run by taking the general feel of the setting far from it's origins in the streets to a place that more resembled Mission Impossible. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but by removing SR from the street level it took a lot of the attitude away from the game (carving the punk out of cyberpunk if you will) and that attitude has always been one of SR's strongest points IMO. SR4 has started to reverse this, but it remains to be seen if that trend will continue. Hopefully it will, and they'll achieve something close to glory days when simply opening an SR book felt like a total imersion in the setting.
But frankly, whatever SR4's failings may be (and I admit there are some) it is the future of the Shadowrun line. Without SR4, there will be no more Shadowrun. And that is simply not acceptahle.
| QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jul 6 2006, 06:12 PM) |
| Make his motivations cynical, he's no artist, he's just good at manipulating emotions. He became a Vampire to live forever, not becaue of fear but to secure his media power properly and for all time. |
hahahahaa
Have you read On The Run or One Stage Before?
He IS an artist. Probably one of the few real artists still around before he became Infected.
| QUOTE |
| Pushed under the rug, really? Wow, then the mentions of the Ordo from Prime Runners on (Threats, Cybertechnology, Shadows of Europe, etc) are just my imagination then. |
But notice the huge timespan between the first two (the second having the vampire stuff written by Sargent and Gasciogne while they were the line devs) and SoE. Hm... Who was the line dev after them? He may not have been great, but the worst crap was done in the interregnum between Dowd and Mulvihill when they were the line developers and SR became about Horrors (Aztlan was also publsihed under their direction). And it was Mike who had to slowly clear all that crap up (which took something epic [the Dragonheart Trilogy] to even begin to start).
| QUOTE |
| why was it deemed necessary to reinvent the rules and setting as SR4 in order to save the line from oblivion? |
Oblivion? Excuse me?
| QUOTE |
| by removing SR from the street level it took a lot of the attitude away from the game (carving the punk out of cyberpunk if you will) |
Oh, dear God... You think SR4 adds cyberpunk? Post-cyberpunk, sure. And as for stree-level, well, consider my view on Level Caps. You can start at chargen as one of the 10,000 best X in the world. Hardly street.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| But notice the huge timespan between the first two (the second having the vampire stuff written by Sargent and Gasciogne while they were the line devs) and SoE. Hm... Who was the line dev after them? He may not have been great, but the worst crap was done in the interrgnum between Dowd and Mulvihil when they were the line developers and SR became about Horrors (Aztlan was also publsihed under their direction). And it was Mike who had to slowly clear all that crap up (which took something epic [the Dragonheart Trilogy] to even begin to start). |
True, Mike did clean up the growing Magicrun problem that the previous devs created (which I only had some problems with in that it took the game too far away from cyberpunk. I liked the storyline itself. Hell, in my games Darke is still alive somewhere looking for a way to recoup his loses and start over). But the vampire portions of it weren't exactly swept under the rug, they were just reduced in importance to the metaplot in favor of the AI metaplot.
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||
Oblivion? Excuse me? |
I could be wrong (I always reserve that right), but that is my understanding of why the decision to make the new edition was made. If not oblivion then a slow but enevitable downward spiral.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Oh, dear God... You think SR4 adds cyberpunk? Post-cyberpunk, sure. And as for stree-level, well, consider my view on Level Caps. You can start at chargen as one of the 10,000 best X in the world. Hardly street. |
You misunderstand. I said SR4 has started to reverse the de-punking of SR. Mike's tenure saved SR from becoming Magicrun and brought cyber back into the equation bigtime, something which SR4 has unfortunately scaled back too far IMO with the cyber-isn't-fashionable attitude, but the punk element was all but lost in the mix. SR4 has started to bring the punk element back, in name and a bit of feel at least, but it doesn't go far enough as the game mechanics don't support the feel of street. I totally agree with you regarding the skill and attribute caps being ridiculous and unrealistic, and moreover not evocative of a street atmosphere. That is something that can easily be cleared up by ripping off the caps though, and even the BBB does that (breaking its own rules) to a minor extent by slotting Great dragons with a Sorcery of 10.
No, SR4 is not cyberpunk. But neither was SR3, which was cyber-special agent if anything. SR4 is more like Mircosoft-delinquents (Cain is right to a degree in the Microsoft-izing of the Matrix) or maybe infopunk, but it is a step in the vaguely right direction. They just need to continue forward toward the goal of realizing and recreating what made SR great in the first place - a unique blend of cyberpunk and fantasy - and once that goal is achieved maintain the balance of those three elements (cyber, magic, and punk).
But regardless, now that SR4 is said and done do you really think they'll go back to publishing SR3 if it flops? No, the line will be dead. I for one do not want to see that happen.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.