IIRC in SR3 (and SR2 as well) wired-out freaks typically had multiple more phases per turn than Deckers. Of course the Matrix wasn't nearly as integrated with the rest of the game, and AR is an obvious change, but there are people that claimed to run them simultaneously. Check over on the main board, there are a few there.

I'm not entirely convinced AR with Wired 3 isn't still a bit behind hot VR even now because of the extra dice, it depends more on situation I think. They sure as hell get owned outright by Overclocked Technomancers. The only thing that makes it as close as it does is the lack of physical damage, although the wierd part about that is that System Failure hints that you can still get at least Stun-like damage in AR. Maybe that gets all clarified in Unwired, along with the wierdness loophole that it doesn't explicitly say that Black IC keeps you from switching to cold sim or even AR on the fly, with no Test, to protect your noggin.

If you can manipulate AR without moving then why do you get "meat-body" speeds as a limitation. If anything you should be faster if using a simmodule than when using AR gloves. There's no distinction in the book, however.

ease of play most likely. if not then you would have to track both meat and "mind" initiative...

Sorry for dredging up old topics but I just thought of something while fleshing out some NPCs hackers. Using Hot Sim helps compnsate for Lower Response for running to many programs, something that I'm having a lot of trouble avoiding. Five programs just isn't enough if you really want to come out ahead. +2 Hotsim REALLY helps.

Just thought I would throw that out there.

is that a houserule that you're suggesting, or do you think that's how it works normally?

because i sure as heck don't remember that being how it works normally...

sounds like a house rule to me as nothing other then reality filter have a response bonus from what i recall...

but then i think that the whole "death spiral" interpetation of how programs, system and response interact is not how its intended to be...

I think he just means the flat +2 to dice pools for hot sim bonus.

Yup, the bonus. not a bonus to response but to anything you're doing on the Matrix.

Just saying that I'm using Hot Sim for my NPCs to counteract running more programs than response.

kinda obvious now that I think of it....

We have been looking at implementing a house rule where an AR user with more then 1 IP can only use 1 IP per turn for matrix actions. (We are looking at doing something similar to this with driveing as well.)
So a sam/hacker with Wired-II is not just as fast in AR as VR. Well, he still gets his 3 IP, but only one can be a matrix action. If he wants to do some serious hacking, then he needs to jump into VR. This is just to keep the guy with Wired-III form being FASTER in the matrix then the guy running hot sim.

I agree with limiting matrix actions in AR to 1 IP per turn. I don't, however, agree with doing so to meat body driving. Driving is definitely a physical activity, and physical reflex should benefit it. I'm totally cool with the wired up driver getting to use his extra passes for driving actions. It's just a different route to take to better driver. It is in some other ways inferior to VR driving, and that's all I need.

Anyway, yeah, I'd go with you only getting one IP for hacking in AR.

a thought hit me why AR makes you use meat initiative even when experienced via simsense.

rember that its a overlay, not a total overwrite. you still have all the other real world stuff going on. VR can be slightly speedyer because it have your full attention. when going VR, VR is all that you sense.

therefor VR can stress the brain to the max without fearing that you will miss something. VR in SR is kinda like dreaming. and we all know that time perception in dreams can be strange at best.

thats why wired reflexes and similar helps in AR. it allows the datatraffic to be speeded up without fear that it will drown out the rest of the world.

wired reflexes and similar are basicly there to allow you to manage the dataflow of the real world faster. thats why a user of it will experience the world as if it slows down, while everyone else see him react to the enviroment much faster then normal.

Well, as physical IP improvement seems to speed up the brain's reaction, too (at least Synaptic Accelerator and Magic should, and Wired Reflexes at least speed up your Reflex time so that there's close-to-no loss between thought and action), there's nothing wrong with AR users using physical IPs for Matrix action.

There is just one fact to consider : All those means of speeding you up take a toll on your body, and abuse leads to problems. Typical results of Reflexoverdose are Shizophrenia, Paranoia, Epilepsy, sometimes even Cancer. So, do you think it's worth the risk ?

I'm gonna have to go with a 1 IP per matrix/vehicle action in my games too. Wired still adds to Reaction, so that helps, and that's good enough for me.
It's not in the spirit of the Shadowrun setting for physical actions to outperform mental actions.

A person with Wired 3 operating an AR computer faster than someone in hot sim VR is like someone with wired 3 manually ejecting the clip of his gun faster than someone with a smartlinked gun telling it to eject with a mental command.
Power to the !

but it is in the spirit of SR4 that the hackers/deckers can go alongside the rest of the team without suffering to much of a setback. limiting matrix actions to one 1 IP pr turn does just that...

but in the end, its up to the individual GM and all that.

and remember, wired reflexes isnt about movement speed (something a faster clip ejection action would be), its about reaction speed. as in, from the time you sense something happening to your brain going "oh shit" and sending out commands to your limbs to respond.

take the scene in spider-man 1 where parker picks up the food and stuff thats dropped. ok so there is some supernatural movement speed there, but the main reason he can do that is because his spiderenhanced senses can get the message faster to the brain where the diffrent food items are in 3d space so that he can start to move the tray into the right posision.

the human body can move quite fast, just check out the combat speed in most jet li movies . but the real issue is fast, accurate movment, and thats what wired reflexes realy allow.

I think it probably helps with twitch muscles, too. eyes, fingers, neck, etc.

and i dont see a SR4 fluff reason for why not AR can be "faster" then VR, given that it does only so when maxing out at wired 3 or similar.

thats a serious commitment to using AR. alltho it allso helps in other combat area. still, each pass you have to decide if your going to fight that guard with a gun aimed at you or that ice coming down on you...

many of the more usefull skills of a hacker is complex actions. this means that you "waste" whole passes doing them, and some of the more interesting stuff (like hacking a guards smartlink and playing around with it) may well require multiple of them...

on a fluff topic, why would the hackers move onto AR if there is no benifit from doing so over VR? if VR is still king, why are not the hackers still parked out in their apartments, communicating with their team over the matrix like some WW1 general?

Those 2 extra dice are all the reason I ever need to go VR. It's like the smartgun for hacking. It's too helpful.
The thing is, what we need is overclocking for normal hackers. There used to be this thing called response increase for decks, which gave a hacker extra initiative passes. Something similar could be reintroduced, overclocking your commlink, which would give you theose extra initiative passes in VR.

Something else to note: your dodge pool resets for you every initiative pass. Now, if you are using you initiative passes in AR, you focus is seriously split. I'd rule that your real world dodge pool only resets if you use your pass in the real world. That's a bit of a limitation.
An AR operator will also have awareness of what's going on around them, probably coercing them to use those passes for real world actions.

ugh, why didnt i notice it before. after the "matrix 2.0 basics" section, the whole part about how to interact with the matrix i under the "augmented reality" section. the "virtual reality" section just builds on that. should be a clear indication that VR is now old tech. still there but mostly only used by specialists and gamers (and the old guard with their hot sim addictions)