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Llewelyn
The rules for lifting as written are utter crap. Does anyone have some rules that are not completely broken?

It seems like the base amount should be much higher and perhaps the amount increased per success be a bit lower.
Phobos
Sorry to say, Lifting Rules are close enough to reality, it seems.

Let me demonstrate.

Weigh Liftting World Record (Men) is 263 kg. Round to 265 for convinience.
(Women is generally about 20% less as men at same weight)
Let's Assume the guy to have BOD 7, STR 7 - unaugmented max for a VERY gifted human.
(Well, we can safely exclude cyberware.)
This would have him roll ~5 hits on average.
Assume, too, that he used Edge to reroll failures that day, so that would have him at ~8 hits.
now just assume he rolle quite above average (World Record !), buf not perfect yet, so we have him at 12 hits.

For a second point from which to scale lifting, let's try Joe with BOD 3, STR 3. Say he weights 75 kg and can lift his own weight with average effort (2 hits).

So we calculate.
W = X * STR + Y * Hits(BOD + STR)

265 = X * 7 + Y * 12
75 = X * 3 + Y * 3
-> X = 25 - Y
-> 265 = 195 + Y * 5
-> Y = 14
-> X = 11

The RAW Formula is W = 10 * STR + 10 * Hits(BOD + STR).
I'd say that is close enough.



... okay ... I have to admit, I cheated ... some ... my first try was to assume BOD 2, STR 2 might be enough to lift your own weight with some effort, but using those values, it came to max weight lifted of 35Kg * STR, Hits(BOD + STR) not mattering any.
So the two closest estimations to 'realistic' would be either the flat rate of 35*STR, or the one given in RAW - and the rule from RAW is better suided to roleplaying as you can achieve more than normally by REALLY wanting to succed.



Now change some assumtions again biggrin.gif
World Record Man : BOD 6, STR 6, 10 hits
Joe : BOD 2, STR 2, 2 hits, still able to lift his own weight (75 kg)

265 = X * 6 + Y * 10
75 = X * 2 + Y * 2
-> X = 37.5 - Y
-> 265 = 225 + Y * 4
-> Y = 10
-> X = 27.5

This might be more to your liking, with the new formula being

W = 25 * STR + 10 * Hits(BOD + STR).



Just to for some feel of completeness ...
World Record Man : BOD 6, STR 6, 10 hits
Joe : BOD 3, STR 3, no hits.

265 = X * 6 + Y * 10
75 = X * 3
-> X = 25
-> Y = 12


As you can see, you can easily change the base amount by a pretty wide margin (up to 3x base) without losing a grip on 'realism' - it just depends on what you think those stats mean, and how you want your campaign to work. Have fun.

... 'same goes for 'Lift at all' and 'Lift to Carry', of course.
Llewelyn
QUOTE (Phobos)
Sorry to say, Lifting Rules are close enough to reality, it seems.

Let me demonstrate.

Weigh Liftting World Record (Men) is 263 kg. Round to 265 for convinience.

Sorry to say but no they are not even close. Let me explain and use the RAW!

Lifting over your head is 5 X STR + Hits from (Body + STR)

So a person with 7 STR and 6 Body will not be able to get above 100kg unless there are a lot of "rules of six" in there and that is with him getting hits on all 13 dice. The world record which you are quoting is for the clean and jerk I believe though I thought it was 266kg. The clean and jerk involves you pressing the weight over your head. That IMO is very broken, the strongest "human" with a body of 6 will not be able to lift very often what I would rep with in the military press.

The other form of lift which would seem to be closer to a dead lift which has a record of like 440kg is still off the mark. IF the same person get all successes on the dice for a total of 20 (7 STR + 6 Body + 7 STR) that will be 300 kg well short of the record of 440kg.

That doesn't even take into account the huge variance that you don't see in lifting weights either. It shouldn't take edge to life something that is 10% less then your max.

So again I ask does anyone have some good rules for Lifting?
Squinky
Yeah, the lifing rules are good until you get past strength 4ish. Beyond that they need work.

I had a chart that I liked, I'll have to look around for it.

Phobo's you are using the wrong references for current lifting records. I was able to find online that a common male record (deadlift, not above the head) was approx 1000 pnds. Big difference.
knasser
Llewelyn is spot on. The SR lifting rules are way off. The main problem as I see it is that weightlifting isn't well described by a random dice roll. When Strongus McStrong steps up to the barbell and sees how much he can lift, it doesn't range from 100 to 160kg depending on how lucky he is on that lift that day.

Maybe there's a case for some variance. Obviously Strongus can say, no that was a bad lift, I'll try again. But SR rules are far too variable. The screwy values on how much someone can lift are probably the result of Fanpro trying to make the World Record the result of near maximum successes on the roll, with the consequence that normal rolls for Str6/Bod6 characters are absurdly low. To make it more realistic, I'd make the formula for the base weight more generous and make the roll add just a little extra on the top, rather than be a big part of the equation. Using Llewelyn's figures for the world records, and assuming that these are the result of a Str 7 / Body 6 character, you 'd get something like this:

e.g. 35kg per point of strength overhead, plus 5kg per successs on Bod+Str.
and 60kg per point of strenght straight lift, plus 10kg per success on Bod+Str.

The other problem however, is that strength just doesn't scale linearly in people. If 3 is the average score of a person and 6 is the (normal) maximum, then the formula makes the average person lift half the weight of the World's strongest, which they certainly can't. Proper training can take you way beyond the average. I think really this is only going to be accurately modelled by either a table of weight to strength and a minor random element, or a complex formula that increases the amount lifted per point as you rise up the scale.
Serbitar
Keep in mind that a troll should be able to lift his own weight.
knasser
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Keep in mind that a troll should be able to lift his own weight.

There are plenty of people who can't lift their own weight. Not saying I disagree, but did any particular reference cause you to say that?

But anyway:

Avg. Troll : 300kg (SR4, p67).
Avg Str: 7 / 8.
Avg Bod: 7 / 8

By RAW:

Base Lift: 8 x 15kg = 120kg.
Avg: Successes: 5 = 5x15kg = 75kg
Normal Lift = 195kg

Not even close.

Edge re-roll:
Avg. Successes: 8 = 8x15kg = 120kg
Good Lift: 240kg

Still hopeless.

Of course you can get stronger trolls (who are probably heavier mind you). Still, this helps put the figures into perspective. The World record being about 440kg, then surely a creature that is on average one metre taller than a human and about four times the weight ought to be able to manage more than half that record? I repeat - that's four times the weight! Trolls average at 660lbs or 47 stone for us Brits. On my scale, the average troll would lift about 480kg off the ground. I don't know if that's too high or not. It's not car-picking up high, but it's impressive.

Comments on my scale, anyone?

Serbitar
Every primate is able to lift its own weight. Even Gorillas can. Trolls should at least fit into the physical parameters of priamtes (if not humans) and not animals like Elefants (who ca not lift themeselves). Shadowrun rules should reflect that.
phasmaphobic
I'd argue that if the Lifting Rules are your only major concern for the system, then right on, mate =)
phasmaphobic
Seriously, though, here's an idea.

Lifting off the ground:

Effortlessly: 15kg x (STR + BOD)
With effort: Additional Test, Pool = STR + BOD + Gymnastics, multiply hits x 15kg for additional lift.

Or make an all-new "Lifting" skill instead. If world championship bodybuilders devote their entire lives to it, I imagine it could definitely be considered a viable physical active skill.

Using the above "average" troll as an example, with STR 8 and BOD 8, you have a non-test lift of 240kg. With a simple amount of effort, 5 AVG successes (not counting the possibility of gymnastics) raise that to 315 kg, a bit over the body mass without much of a broken sweat.

Throw some Edge in, lets say a total of 9 successes (instead of the 5), and we got 375, just a bit under a championship lifter.

And that's just an average troll.

Sounds about right to me...

EDIT: Additionally, the "world record of 440kg" is a bit deceiving, as that is only for the deadlift, and there's no way mere mortals without extensivwe lifelong training can ever attempt that. Bolton pulled that record, and is arguably at the absolute top of the game. Additionally, the use of the term "average" here is deceiving, as a STR 8 Troll is not the average, but the median. A size of 300kg is listed in the book as a "common" weight for the troll, but hardly an "average" or even "median." As an example of how these terms work, I'd hazard that the typical american male today, being obese, has a weight of 250 pounds and a STR of 2, if even. Considering how we don't know the ratio of muscle mass the body mass of a troll versus a human, assuming that the "average" troll is 300kg with a STR of 8 is fallible.
Serbitar
QUOTE (phasmaphobic)
I'd argue that if the Lifting Rules are your only major concern for the system, then right on, mate =)

I dont care very much about lifting rules, but IF somebody wants to make new ones, then he should do it the right way. And part of the right way is considering that a troll should be able to lift himself.
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Serbitar)
I dont care very much about lifting rules, but IF somebody wants to make new ones, then he should do it the right way. And part of the right way is considering that a troll should be able to lift himself.

Why? Not every human can lift himself today. Trolls are technically human. They are bigger, and their strength represents that, but their mass has also increased proportionally as well.

I consider myself to be in fairly good physical health, excellent cardiovascular rhythm, and well-exercised. I can't lift my own weight, though. I've tried. I'd be willing to bet that if you increased my mass proportionally, and then piled on some extra bone deposits all over, and threw in a big-ass pair of horns, I still would not be able to lift myself.

I believe there should be a skill for it, personally.
Serbitar
Can you do a pull up? Then you can lift yourself. An I think the lifting specialization of athletics does the job.
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Can you do a pull up? Then you can lift yourself. An I think the lifting specialization of athletics does the job.

No. I can't. I have never focused on upper body strength.

And I know many, many, many, many people of the same affectation.

And I'm not sure to what "Athletics" and "lifting" you are referring. There's an Athletics skill group, with limbing, Running, Gymnastics, and Swimming skills, none of which have a Lifting spec.

There should be, though, and thanks to house rules, there now is =)
FrankTrollman
It gets really silly when you factor in he kinds of strength that, for example, a horse has to have. And when you factor in hat people can transform into horses and camels and such, those high strengh values can become quite broken.

bviously, what is needed is a nonlinear lifting limit. A Strength of 7 should be able to lift 400 kg, and a strength of 2 should be well shy of lifting a normal human (70 kg). So let's look at a strength of 3 lifting a normal human, and a strength of 7 being about world class in lifting - there's 4 points difference and a multiple of 5.7.

That means that each increase in strength should be increasing your max lift by about 1.56 times. That's.. a crap number that's hard to use.

So instead, let's monkey ith the numbers a bit so it's easy to use.

At strength 3 you can lift 80 kg, and every point of strength more than that you can lift half again as much. Thus, at Strength 7 you can lift 405 kilos, and at strength 1 you can lift 35 kilos. It's a little high at the low end, but it's pretty good at the high end. Most importantly, it means that you don't have to be crazy-strong to be able to replicate a forklift or an ox.

Exponentials are your riend. Linear math does not work for most things.

-Frank

Serbitar
QUOTE (phasmaphobic @ Jul 1 2006, 06:22 PM)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jul 1 2006, 03:13 PM)
Can you do a pull up? Then you can lift yourself. An I think the lifting specialization of athletics does the job.

No. I can't. I have never focused on upper body strength.

Ah, well, then you are really very unfit. Only 3 out of 15 in my old school class couldnt. So I would say not being able to do a pull up qualifies for strength 2.

QUOTE

And I'm not sure to what "Athletics" and "lifting" you are referring.  There's an Athletics skill group, with limbing, Running, Gymnastics, and Swimming skills, none of which have a Lifting spec.

There should be, though, and thanks to house rules, there now is =)


Sorry, my fault. Was thinking SR3 somehow.

@Frank:

Problem is, SR4 is linear. But no RPG I know has the right scaling for strength. Tall monsters like trolls, ogres and giants are generally much too weak because of poor game design. Nobody seems to know that weight and thus approximately strength goes with height^3.
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jul 1 2006, 03:13 PM)

Ah, well, then you are really very unfit. Only 3 out of 15 in my old school class couldnt. So I would say not being able to do a pull up qualifies for strength 2.


That snark at my fitness was unnecessary. It's been a decade since highschool, and I was of course able to do a lot more pullups back then. My personal fitness is quite exceptional, mind you, and has nothing at all to do with my supposed "STR attribute" of 2. In high school, I was a three-times allstate distance runner, a twice-allstate swimmer, and a heavy cyclist to boot. I'm currently a tournament fencer, my heart is in peak shape, I have 7.8% body fat, my thighs can kill at 30 paces, and I regularly go on cross-country cycling outings. And no, I now cannot do a pull-up.

Upper Body Strength and fitness are not mutually exclusive.

QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jul 1 2006, 03:13 PM)

Sorry, my fault. Was thinking SR3 somehow.


It appears as if you are correct.
Cynic project
Or one could do what ehy did with digial storage space and make it so that character can carry anything they need as long as it is within reason?
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Or one could do what ehy did with digial storage space and make it so that character can carry anything they need as long as it is within reason?

I like this better. I've never once used encumbrance rules in a game unless it was just a tad out of proportion.
FrankTrollman
Damage isn't linear. And since Strength in fact does equal damage, handling strength as a linear equation is asking for stupid to happen. and crazy. And crazy stupid. A pistol does 4P, and a high powered rifle does 8P. I'm actually OK with someone who is crazy strong punching like a pistol shot. Havingg someone with a crazy strength hitting like a high powered rifle or an assault cannon is stretching believability.

And yet, the lifting capabilities of creatures is an undenyable part of the world. It is flat unimersive for someone to transform into a camel and not have sufficient strength to lift two men and their gear. So if that kind of strength is enough to punch someone harder than an assault cannon (as any linear system necessarily would be), that's an immediate problem. Either you have elite forces of camel riders that kick tanks in half or you have camels that can't carry a Bedouin and his camping supplies. Either is a failure of mechanics and one is necessary unless we eliminate linearity in lifting maximums

If you can jump, you can lift yourself. Even extremely heavy people are usually capable of running (and thus jumping).

Linearity is the enemy. Yu could have linear numbers involved in "pushing yourself", that would be fine. A non-linear scale for base lifting is a must. A linear pushing system could work (perhaps your base lifting + 5 kilos per hit on your Strength + Body check, made each turn or something along those lines).

QUOTE
But no RPG I know has the right scaling for strength. Tall monsters like trolls, ogres and giants are generally much too weak because of poor game design. Nobody seems to know that weight and thus approximately strength goes with height^3.


You can say that again. Under D&D rules I have human maximum strength, despite not actually being a horrendously impressive specimen (I can't do a pullup either, but pushing 3/4 of a ton really isn't that hard of a task).

-Frank
Serbitar
QUOTE (phasmaphobic @ Jul 1 2006, 06:37 PM)
That snark at my fitness was unnecessary.  It's been a decade since highschool, and I was of course able to do a lot more pullups back then.  My personal fitness is quite exceptional, mind you, and has nothing at all to do with my supposed "STR attribute" of 2.  In high school, I was a three-times allstate distance runner, a twice-allstate swimmer, and a heavy cyclist to boot.  I'm currently a tournament fencer, my heart is in peak shape, I have 7.8% body fat, my thighs can kill at 30 paces, and I regularly go on cross-country cycling outings.  And no, I now cannot do a pull-up.

Well. I am just your average computer couch potato (more or less) and I just did three pull ups. Strange. (But then, I only weight 60 kilos)
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Well. I am just your average computer couch potato (more or less) and I just did three pull ups. Strange.

Good for you! I just made some vegan-chocolate cookies and you are more than welcome to have one.
Serbitar
Hehe, hmm. What is the exact difference between a regular chocolate cookie and a vegan chocolate cookie? Is this even possible without milk?
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Hehe, hmm. What is the exact difference between a regular chocolate cookie and a vegan chocolate cookie? Is this even possible without milk?

Made with cocoa beans and soy lecithin. Sometimes they're sweetened with either natural sugars or products like Stevia, but these are not artifically sweetened at all, and taste... "rich" but not in the "so sweet your mouth explodes" richness common to most chocolates and, say, french food.
Kyrn the Second
I wonder how SR4 RAW places most dumpshockers on the strength scale.


I refuse to remember how awful vegan cookies of any form taste.

And I'm honestly surprised that anyone in that kind of shape can't do a pull-up. Even a hyper-specialized athlete like Lance Armstrong can probably do a pull-up. Like, this concept is boggling my mind. I know, you don't focus on upper body strength, and given your chosen sports it wouldn't make sense to do heavy lifting, but every muscle contraction contracts all the other muscles in the body. Sorry, just surprised. Have you tried a pull-up recently?

Oh, and the typical American male is also nowhere near 250lbs. That's just ridiculous.
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Kyrn the Second)
I wonder how SR4 RAW places most dumpshockers on the strength scale.


I refuse to remember how awful vegan cookies of any form taste.

And I'm honestly surprised that anyone in that kind of shape can't do a pull-up. Even a hyper-specialized athlete like Lance Armstrong can probably do a pull-up. Like, this concept is boggling my mind. I know, you don't focus on upper body strength, and given your chosen sports it wouldn't make sense to do heavy lifting, but every muscle contraction contracts all the other muscles in the body. Sorry, just surprised. Have you tried a pull-up recently?

Oh, and the typical American male is also nowhere near 250lbs. That's just ridiculous.

Vegan Cookies: why do you say my awesome delicious tasty cookies are awful if you haven't had them? You sound prejudiced.

Pull-ups: haven't actually tried in about 6 months. I could almost do one, and it hurt like hell. Hell, I can only do about 10-20 pushups on a good day before my arms demand a break. I just don't have much upper body strength.

Average Wt: I just guessed, but I remember reading an article recently in a Men's Health Magazine, about how the highest percentage of american males is 200+ pounds. Not the "average," mind you, but the median, which is statistically more significant. Comes from poor diets, driving everywhere, and sitting around watching TV.
Llewelyn
QUOTE (phasmaphobic)
I'd argue that if the Lifting Rules are your only major concern for the system, then right on, mate =)

Actually I agree, I never liked SR till I read the rules for 4 ed, owning 1st and 3rd rules. I really like SR I love the rules and how fast it plays out.

And so far I only have a few minor problems with it, mostly how quickly someone can break an encryption and how the counter spelling works(ie with no mages in the group magic owns, with several no one can get a spell to land.) But those we have worked around.

I was thinking of doing something like your base is (STR X STR) X 5 + 5 per hit. Though I don't think that works well on the lower end of the scale. I don't like the linear lifting rates either, though it isn't quite linear as written since you can get more hits and have higher str.

Perhaps a chart is the best way to do it with a amount per hit added.
knasser
A linear chart is never going to work brilliantly, but for simplicity's sake, I'm going to go with

30kg per point of strength overhead, plus 5kg per successs on Bod+Str
55kg per point of strenght straight lift, plus 10kg per success on Bod+Str

That breaks down at Str 1 or 2, but it hits the right point at the upper levels. And if I figure this is likely to come up in life or death situations, I don't mind the low end pulling off the odd impressive (for them) stunt ("Did you see me pick up the dwarf? Did you see me? I picked up the dwarf!")

@Serbitar. I disagree that everyone can do a pull-up. I know lots of people, even those with very good CV fitness and low body-fat, who can't even do one. The overweight especially have a hard time with this. I can do about fifteen pull-ups, but I have quite good upper-body strength (quite poor CV fitness though - must do more running). Adding "even gorillas can" doesn't help the point. Gorillas are strong (and vegan too wink.gif )

Anyway, so long as whatever system is used has the bulk of the weight calculated by formula with successes adding only a little, then we're on the right track. Anything that works off calculated successes or edge to reach maximums is going to be absurdly unrealistically variable.

@phasmaphobic. A lifting skill does make some sense in that training the muscles for a particular action is an important part of how much weight you can move in that action. But it brings us back to rolling to see how strong you are on that day. Hitting a target at 100m is something where there are lots of variables and small changes can have a large impact, therefore a pistols skill roll makes sense. Lifting a barbell is something where there aren't, they don't and it doesn't.


EDIT: Serbitar - are you talking about underhand pull-ups? I've been meaning overhand and I'd assume that phasmaphobic is too. Underhand are definitely much easier but they don't apply so well to a deadlift. You're using different muscles and the range of motion is smaller. I do agree with you that most people can lift their own weight in a dead lift, but it's not universal and I'd say that Str 1 indicates you probably can't. Especially if Body is higher than 1 or 2.
ornot
Just my 2[yen]...

Larger people are less likely to be able to lift their own weight as they weigh proportionately more. I've known plenty of smaller people than myself that can manage many more pull-ups than me, and I know for certain that I can lift more weight than them. I just weigh more, so my power-weight ratio is less impressive. Granted I don't work out as much as I ought to, but I'm no heifer (14 stone at 6' 4").

As for fat Americans, it comes as no surprise... I just came back from an academic meeting in Boston, and they put sugar in everything! Even the salted peanuts taste sweet! My best guess is that the culture as a whole is addicted to sugar due to years of exposure by the food industry.
Phobos
... ummm ... okay, seems I misremembered the rules ...
damn, another one on the long list of broken ones.

Try again.

Lifting Overhead : Weight of 25kg * STR + 15kg per hit

Enough for Joe Average (STR 3, BOD 3) to lift his own weight, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder (STR 6, BOD 6) to have a go for the world record on a good roll.



Lifting/Moving at all : Weight of 30kg * STR + 20kg per hit
Twice the amount if you can find a good handhold, more if you can apply a lever.

Enough for Joe Average to haul his knocked-out troll buddy off the street with some effort, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder to lift up one side of a vehicle a few inches.



Carrying : 10kg * STR + 5kg * BOD base. If you're carrying more than that, you take (Weight - Base)/10 Stun damage every (GM's decision, depending on how unwieldy the item is to carry) turns, reduced by one for every hit on a STR + BOD test.
This value is for anyone walking on two legs or flying magically (Dragons biggrin.gif), half it for a flying creature and double it for a creature using four legs.

Enough for Joe Average to carry home some drinks for his Urban Brawl Playoff Party, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder to pick up one of the guys who had too much drinks and carry him up the stairs to a bedroom.
And, of course, enough for a camel to carry his Beduine rider and 'camping gear'.



Still not perfect, but I guess good enought to apply to PCs and most NPC ...
Comments ?
knasser
QUOTE (Phobos @ Jul 2 2006, 07:31 AM)
... ummm ... okay, seems I misremembered the rules ...
damn, another one on the long list of broken ones.

Try again.

Lifting Overhead : Weight of 25kg * STR + 15kg per hit

Enough for Joe Average (STR 3, BOD 3)  to lift his own weight, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder (STR 6, BOD 6) to have a go for the world record on a good roll.



Lifting/Moving at all : Weight of 30kg * STR + 20kg per hit
Twice the amount if you can find a good handhold, more if you can apply a lever.

Enough for Joe Average to haul his knocked-out troll buddy off the street with some effort, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder to lift up one side of a vehicle a few inches.



Carrying : 10kg * STR + 5kg * BOD base. If you're carrying more than that, you take (Weight - Base)/10 Stun damage every (GM's decision, depending on how unwieldy the item is to carry) turns, reduced by one for every hit on a STR + BOD test.
This value is for anyone walking on two legs or flying magically (Dragons biggrin.gif), half it for a flying creature and double it for a creature using four legs.

Enough for Joe Average to carry home some drinks for his Urban Brawl Playoff Party, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder to pick up one of the guys who had too much drinks and carry him up the stairs to a bedroom.
And, of course, enough for a camel to carry his Beduine rider and 'camping gear'.



Still not perfect, but I guess good enought to apply to PCs and most NPC ...
Comments ?


Hmmm. More accurate than mine at the low end and gives around the right sort of figures on average at the high end, but suffers from the same absurdly random range of weight that the RAW does. In your system, Joe Average can usually lift 70kg above his head (that's quite a lot for most people, actually). But with luck (good roll) and a little effort (edge) he can push 130kg. Quite a jump.

As I said before, I think any realistic system has to put the main bulk of the weight limit on a straight calculation from the attribute(s) with hits contributing only a small part of the total. The problem with the above isn't the average figures, but the distribution curve around them. I'm sticking with my own system until someone else can be bothered to do a progression chart which I can yoink. wink.gif
Phobos
I understand your problem, on the other hand, Progression Charts are IMHO a worse solution than a dice system if it's scaled properly - that is, if you can lift any realistic (whatever that is biggrin.gif) amount without relying on luck. One consequence ist that characters can lift A LOT with a A LOT OF LUCK - that's something I can live with, 'fits with a little cinematic view of RPing where a Character can achive more than anyone though him being able if he's really pushed to it. Remember, a Character only rolls dice if he put effort into it, if he doesn't, he's stuck with Base.
And, hey, if you don't want that cinematic aspect, just use average hits instead.

A 'Realistic' Chart is as impossible as a 'Realistic' Dice System. Reason :
Carrying or Lifting something is not only a problem of the item's weight, but more of how you can wield or hold it - with any unwieldy object, gravity has a lever that it uses against you, and that object's "effective weight for RP lifting purposes" is much higher.
And those really heavy objects tend to be really unwieldy, too biggrin.gif
This limits even Trolls, Giants and Dragons a bit - yes, they should be able to lift more than a normal human, but there are limits that are even applied to them : Bones can only handle so much force tearing at them, do only have a limited amount of surface to attach muscles to, muscles can be only layered to some extend before diminishing returns sets in ...

Honestly though ... I haven't used any system for Lifting and Carrying for years ... probably since AD&D 2nd ed. ... , only winging up dice rolls if characters wanted to do something heroic or stupid ... and usually made a successful dice roll on a stupid venture have worse consequences than the failure biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
there are stories (alltho not backed up by any real science that i can think of so...) about housewifes and similar going on adrenaline surges or something and lifting weights that they would not even try to lift normaly.

i guess thats what the dice should be, for when you go "beyond the call of duty" so to speak.

and like phobos points out, there is a place where things pass into the realm of comic book super heros. even tho you could potentialy lift x weight, can the surface your standing on handle the now highly increased pressure that your feet are generating?

there is a reason why tanks have tracks rather then wheels, beyond the added traction wink.gif high weight in combo with "small" footprint and you risk starting to sink into the ground nyahnyah.gif
knasser
QUOTE (Phobos @ Jul 2 2006, 10:10 AM)
I understand your problem, on the other hand, Progression Charts are IMHO a worse solution than a dice system if it's scaled properly - that is, if you can lift any realistic (whatever that is biggrin.gif) amount without relying on luck. One consequence ist that characters can lift A LOT with a A LOT OF LUCK - that's something I can live with, 'fits with a little cinematic view of RPing where a Character can achive more than anyone though him being able if he's really pushed to it. Remember, a Character only rolls dice if he put effort into it, if he doesn't, he's stuck with Base.
And, hey, if you don't want that cinematic aspect, just use average hits instead.

A 'Realistic' Chart is as impossible as a 'Realistic' Dice System. Reason :
Carrying or Lifting something is not only a problem of the item's weight, but more of how you can wield or hold it - with any unwieldy object, gravity has a lever that it uses against you, and that object's "effective weight for RP lifting purposes" is much higher.
And those really heavy objects tend to be really unwieldy, too biggrin.gif
This limits even Trolls, Giants and Dragons a bit - yes, they should be able to lift more than a normal human, but there are limits that are even applied to them : Bones can only handle so much force tearing at them, do only have a limited amount of surface to attach muscles to, muscles can be only layered to some extend before diminishing returns sets in ...

Honestly though ... I haven't used any system for Lifting and Carrying for years ... probably since AD&D 2nd ed. ... , only winging up dice rolls if characters wanted to do something heroic or stupid ... and usually made a successful dice roll on a stupid venture have worse consequences than the failure biggrin.gif


Ugh - superheroes. If that's the Shadowrun you want, then of course you can have it, but I'll point out again that your system has Joe Office Clerk (Str 3, Bod 3) swinging wildly between 75kg and 130kg or just possibly more depending on his luck. That's a 286lb guy he's hoisting into the air there, or 20 stone for us Brits.

It's not an either / or. I said a system that is predominantly based on fixed calculation rather than rolls, which is what I detailed. There is still room for a bit of heroics, but there's realism too.

As to difficulty of grip, position, etc. Obviously that is what the dice pool modifiers are for.
Kyrn
Let's see here, average weight for the American male is 172lbs at 5'9". Not too slim, but still rather small.

And I really didn't mean to disparage your alternative baking skills, I've just had a number of horrifying experiences with vegan cookies. And vegan cheese. As the only unabashed carnivore at the organic coffee shop I used to work at I was subjected to countless attempts to woo me over to the meatless side.

Vegan cheese really scares me btw. 25 minutes in the sanwich press and it didn't melt. That thing melted forks. <shudder> The idea of people putting that stuff in their bodies...
Kyrn
Oh, and 20 pushups in a row would actually be quite good for an untrained male. I believe that's around average soldier fitness actually. At least for well-behaved ones.
knasser
QUOTE (Kyrn)
Let's see here, average weight for the American male is 172lbs at 5'9". Not too slim, but still rather small.

And I really didn't mean to disparage your alternative baking skills, I've just had a number of horrifying experiences with vegan cookies. And vegan cheese. As the only unabashed carnivore at the organic coffee shop I used to work at I was subjected to countless attempts to woo me over to the meatless side.

Vegan cheese really scares me btw. 25 minutes in the sanwich press and it didn't melt. That thing melted forks. <shudder> The idea of people putting that stuff in their bodies...


Just out of curosity, are you american? I stayed over there for a few months and what your supermarkets called 'cheese' still gives me nightmares. No offense, I mean lightbulbs, microchips, jazz, Raymond Chandler... all great stuff and thanks. But the cheese... urgh!
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Kyrn)
Let's see here, average weight for the American male is 172lbs at 5'9". Not too slim, but still rather small.

And I really didn't mean to disparage your alternative baking skills, I've just had a number of horrifying experiences with vegan cookies. And vegan cheese. As the only unabashed carnivore at the organic coffee shop I used to work at I was subjected to countless attempts to woo me over to the meatless side.

Vegan cheese really scares me btw. 25 minutes in the sanwich press and it didn't melt. That thing melted forks. <shudder> The idea of people putting that stuff in their bodies...

Don't get me wrong: I'm not vegan. I don't like most vegan-labelled things. Vegan cheese is so beyond gross that I don't even like thinking about it.
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Kyrn @ Jul 2 2006, 11:22 AM)
Let's see here, average weight for the American male is 172lbs at 5'9".  Not too slim, but still rather small.

And I really didn't mean to disparage your alternative baking skills, I've just had a number of horrifying experiences with vegan cookies.  And vegan cheese.  As the only unabashed carnivore at the organic coffee shop I used to work at I was subjected to countless attempts to woo me over to the meatless side. 

Vegan cheese really scares me btw.  25 minutes in the sanwich press and it didn't melt.  That thing melted forks.  <shudder>  The idea of people putting that stuff in their bodies...


Just out of curosity, are you american? I stayed over there for a few months and what your supermarkets called 'cheese' still gives me nightmares. No offense, I mean lightbulbs, microchips, jazz, Raymond Chandler... all great stuff and thanks. But the cheese... urgh!

You're prolly referring to American Cheese, which is one of the most disturbing cheese substances ever.

There are plenty of other cheeses at supermarkets that are quite nice - just be sure and have them sliced by the deli, and not pre-packaged by Kraft.
Llewelyn
QUOTE (phasmaphobic)
You're  prolly referring to American Cheese, which is one of the most disturbing cheese substances ever.

Or worse he saw Velveta! eek.gif

I must say that when I was working in France I couldn't believe the number of different cheeses they had in a rather small market.


How about

Over Head: (STR + STR) X (10 +STR) + Hits (STR + Body) X STR
Lift off Ground: (STR + STR) X (22 + STR) + Hits (STR + Body) X (STR X 1.6)

Though I am still thinking a chart might be best.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Nobody seems to know that weight and thus approximately strength goes with height^3.

No it doesn't.

Weight is based on volume (assuming constant density) and so will scale with height^3. Strength is based on cross-sectional AREA (not volume) of muscles and supporting tissues (like bones), so strength only scales with height^2.

That's why an ant can lift 50 times it's own weight, but if you made an ant the size of a house it's exoskeleton would splinter under its own weight and it wouldn't be strong enough to lift it's own head.

There are diminishing strength returns as you get bigger.
knasser
QUOTE (Llewelyn @ Jul 2 2006, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (phasmaphobic)
You're  prolly referring to American Cheese, which is one of the most disturbing cheese substances ever.

Or worse he saw Velveta! eek.gif

I must say that when I was working in France I couldn't believe the number of different cheeses they had in a rather small market.


How about

Over Head: (STR + STR) X (10 +STR) + Hits (STR + Body) X STR
Lift off Ground: (STR + STR) X (22 + STR) + Hits (STR + Body) X (STR X 1.6)

Though I am still thinking a chart might be best.


Yeah, there's a sort of hierarchy of disgust. The English look down on American cheese and the French look down on the English and the Swiss are just off in their own little world.

Velveeta rings a bell, but to be honest, I tried a lot of different cheeses and couldn't find one I liked until I discovered somewhere that imported actual British cheddar. I don't think any of the americans would touch it because it had FAT in it. The only cheese that interested me in the states was one that had halapenos embedded in it. And that was more for novelty than great quality, I'm afraid. Sorry folks. You do some good movies, though!

Llewellyn, did you mistype your system, taking average values (hope this formatting works) the progression with your system for lifting overhead is:
CODE

STR&BOD  BASE LIFT Avg. Lift(kg)   Avg using Edge(kg)
    1               11    11                     12
    2               48    50                        52
    3              117   123                   126
    4              224   232            240
    5              375   390            400
    6              576   600            618

That's quite a lot at the top end for lifting overhead as the world record (clean and jerk) is 266kg. There's a nice distribution curve though, in that there are no absurd changes in a persons strength according to which side of bed they got up that morning. You just need to play with the base numbers.

I got admit though, that by this point in the thread and all these different system, why no one has explained to me what is so terribly wrong with the one I posted near the start?
Kyrn the Second
This is America. We import cheese. The only good cheese made here is from wisconsin, and not much of it leaves the state. Now, you want to talk heirarchy of disgust, everyone looks down on English cuisine. biggrin.gif
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Kyrn the Second)
This is America. We import cheese. The only good cheese made here is from wisconsin, and not much of it leaves the state. Now, you want to talk heirarchy of disgust, everyone looks down on English cuisine. biggrin.gif

Actually, Tillamook makes some damn good cheese...
hobgoblin
hmm, lifting and chesse.

err, just when i typed that it dawned on me what kind of silly connection one could create silly.gif

on the topic of cheese, anyone up for some brown stuff?
works wonders on hot bread wink.gif

yep, im talking about that "crazy" cheese we eat here in norway wink.gif
Kyrn the Second
One of my favorites is a German called Bruder Basil. It's this smoked "rock cheese", sort of like a gouda...so smoky it's like eating a campfire.


But in a good way.
Apathy
I apoligize if somebody already went over this and I missed it, but why do we include Body in a lifting test? I might understand it if we were talking about pushing something, since that allows us to throw our mass against the object, but just a straight lift seems more like a function of (squared or cubed) strength than a combination of strength and body...
Phobos
It hasn't been asked yet, and it is a valid question.

BOD is used because in reallife weightlifting depends on build as much as training strength to max. And build is reflected by BOD.

Yes, it should probably be more like STR³*BOD²*Athletics(Weighlifting)² - but that would be just a little bit to complicated for a game system.
knasser
QUOTE (Apathy)
I apoligize if somebody already went over this and I missed it, but why do we include Body in a lifting test? I might understand it if we were talking about pushing something, since that allows us to throw our mass against the object, but just a straight lift seems more like a function of (squared or cubed) strength than a combination of strength and body...


It's a good question, but note that in the RAW and the systems people have come up with here, Body is definitely secondary to Strength (as it only contributes the occasional hit). I guess that you could allow a high Body to enhance the lift a little. It gives you more mass to balance against the weight, leverage, stability etc. Body does reflect a larger frame, so maybe someone's true strength is partly made up of both Strength and Body. I mean what would a character with Strenghth 6 and Body 1 look like?
ornot
QUOTE (Kyrn the Second)
This is America. We import cheese. The only good cheese made here is from wisconsin, and not much of it leaves the state. Now, you want to talk heirarchy of disgust, everyone looks down on English cuisine. biggrin.gif

HEY! I resent that. Engish cuisine (such as it is) is still a lot better than American cuisine.

Granted a lot of the stuff cooked over here is derived from other countries (Indian, Italian etc), but the americans can't even get that right!
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