Full Version: What are the HAVE TO have skills and gear?
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| ... still flying in the face of reason i see. Sure there could be the rare subset of the rare case where you don't have the option of making it first. For times like that there is Edge. Then for the rare times you've already run out of Edge....well you've already tapped out your character and likely have gotten much further than the poor sap that wasted their BP on Dodge and their health on waiting for the other guy to shoot at him. |
Again I point you to the "perhaps it's different game styles" point I made earlier. This happens much more often in our games then it seems to happen in yours.
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| It is a low priority for PCs that are there to make things happen. |
Not when survival is what they're trying to make happen.
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| Um, that would be a typo corrections as an insult...due to running out of points....Skippy. |
It's a shame you were the first to use insults. I guess that means you were out of gas first.
Ok, look, let me settle this, so mommy and daddy can stop fighting: You're both retarded. The rules you're quoting are both shit, because the GM of a particular game has ultimate fiat. Consequently, the rule is whatever the GM says. This means, ultimately, that all your arguing equals, "this is how it works for me." Which is meaningless.
I think McMurray, Brahm, Cain, and then rest of you who wanna argue could snuggle with that for your own peace of mind.
I think McMurray, Brahm, Cain, and then rest of you who wanna argue could snuggle with that for your own peace of mind.
| QUOTE (adamu) |
| The two holy rules of what skills to take at chargen: One - do your character's history FIRST, and then just take whatever skills he would have, regardless of what will help you "win." The principles of universal justice will eventually reward the true roleplayer. Two - if you want to "win," it will ALL depend on your GM's style. Some never bother you with a perception test, which if you fail you won't see their cool clue. Some will. Some will never challenge you no matter how fancy you get with your commlink. Some will hit you with tests from the full range of the Electronics group. Some will let you roleplay all your social interactions. Some will make you roll dice for them no matter how great a pitch you as a player come up with. Take the skills to help with the things your GM leans on dice for. Don't know your GM that well? Refer to Rule One. |
One and two actually contradict each other (although you seemed to be saying that one is a good approach when you can't do two).
Two I agree with. It's always funny to see people come up with min-maxing strategies that don't take the GM's individual campaign into account. Hey, if you're going to metagame, do it right. If social interactions are always roleplayed and never rolled, then take a point or so of Etiquette to cover yourself and then spend the points you've saved on other stuff. If maxing out your combat ability will only get the GM riled up and your character attacked all of the time, then tone it down to the point where you take an occasional light wound, occasionally miss, and your GM isn't as nervous.
One, on the other hand, depends. When it comes down to the dice, the guy tossing the most of them tends to win/be more successful. "Good roleplaying wins" is a nice notion, but roleplaying doesn't affect the cold, unforgiving dice. However, it still could be a good way to put a character together, IF you are actually building a shadowrunner. Part of your background should be "How has this character made a living as a professional criminal?" and "Why would other criminals want to work with this character?" Done right, you could get a good character with this method.
It's not the only way to get a coherent, self-consistent character, though. My approach is to start with a concept, work the numbers, revise the concept and the numbers as I go through, then flesh out the final story. For me, it works best when the numbers and story can bounce off each other. That way, you can revise your character's backstory before it gets set in stone in your mind. The trouble with having a complete story first is that it won't exactly fit the limits of the character creation rules - you will wind up having to compromise your concept, and that can be unsatisfying.
Just for fun, once, I tried making two of my third-edition characters into fourth edition. So I was basically doing approach One, starting out with a complete story. It was frustrating (even though one of them, Viper, was a low-powered character and would have had a power boost in SR4 standard character creation rules) - they just didn't quite fit their backgrounds. I guess that approach can work for some players, but not very well for me, personally.
Now, as far as fangirl's advice, I agree that the archetypes are worth looking at for some ideas, and to give you a general idea about certain character types. But they are sample characters, not optimized ones - and I don't simply mean not min-maxed, but sloppy.
For the face, they spent the extra points to buy the skills individually, so they could get two of them at 5. But if they got the skill group at rating: 4, they could raise Charisma by one. They would roll the same amount of dice for etiquette and negotiation, one more dice for con, would have the leadership skill, and have 6 extra build points to spend. For the enforcer, they forgot that the Uncouth quality affects the cost of social skills at char-gen - so he's 26 points over. The bounty hunter has a rating: 10 bow that he can't even use (I'm hoping they just confused the Str Min and Damage ratings)! The weapons specialist is so overgeneralized that she is almost useless in combat - she's fine at repairing weapons, but a far cry from the "literal martial artist" that the character blurb describes her as.
Don't get me wrong, some of them are still good enough to run right out of the box with - but they still won't come close to a custom-crafted character.
| QUOTE (Geekkake) |
| The rules you're quoting are both shit, because the GM of a particular game has ultimate fiat. Consequently, the rule is whatever the GM says. |
This is true of every single rule in the books. Thus, when discussing rules, either a house rule is specified or the rules in the book are used.
Well thanx for all the responses. Im sorry things got so heated and nasty. I didnt understand that dodge was either not part of your defense or if it was it could be replaced with another skill on normal defense rolls. It looks like the only situation it really helps out is during a full defense while in melee. I also didnt see where perception was a "skill" I thought you just added up two attributes.
I do think there are skills and items that the vast majority of runners would benefit from no matter what kind of archtype they are. I think im gonna have to totally rebuild one of my guys after this thread.
What makes etiquette so valuable? Its mostly used to influence people not for just talking to them. Would hat be a con test if i asked a dude on the street about the weather and he didnt really wanna tell me?? lol. I could see having it to try and decieve or influence but not to just talk to people. I could be wrong though.
I do think there are skills and items that the vast majority of runners would benefit from no matter what kind of archtype they are. I think im gonna have to totally rebuild one of my guys after this thread.
What makes etiquette so valuable? Its mostly used to influence people not for just talking to them. Would hat be a con test if i asked a dude on the street about the weather and he didnt really wanna tell me?? lol. I could see having it to try and decieve or influence but not to just talk to people. I could be wrong though.
Dodge is also useful in dodging bullets, but most of the time it's only used that way reflexively when you are receiving a lot of fire.
Etiquette tests could be called for in all sorts of situations. If you find yourself in unfamiliar social territory the GM may call for an etiquette test. If he does and you fail, or even worse you botch it because you're defaulting, the consequences could be bad. It's also used for getting information out of contacts, and legwork is a major part of the preplanning stage of runs.
Etiquette tests could be called for in all sorts of situations. If you find yourself in unfamiliar social territory the GM may call for an etiquette test. If he does and you fail, or even worse you botch it because you're defaulting, the consequences could be bad. It's also used for getting information out of contacts, and legwork is a major part of the preplanning stage of runs.
i think what James is trying to say Abbandon is that dodge is mainly useful in one specific scenario... most of the time, you can replace the dodge skill with another skill. that is, most of the time *if* it's your action. the advantage to the dodge skill is that you can use dodge (but not gymnastics dodge iirc) against ranged attacks when it is not your action, although only against one attack iirc. still, if that attack is worth avoiding, it becomes important.
Really? It was my understanding that if a character had a good unarmed and gymnastics skill there was no situation that required dodge. I'm not forcefully asserting this, but if someone could give some quotes and settle this issue for me, I'd appreciate it. I've read the section, and I'm still not sure.
I don't know about gymnastics dodge, but a good unarmed skill will negate your need for dodge in those situations.
There are a lot of charcter concepts where unarmed skills don't fit. There are even more concepts where gymnastics doesn't fit.
Jaid: when you declare you're dodging on someone else's turn it's against all incoming attacks.
There are a lot of charcter concepts where unarmed skills don't fit. There are even more concepts where gymnastics doesn't fit.
Jaid: when you declare you're dodging on someone else's turn it's against all incoming attacks.
I think glyph had the right basic idea... the question is really "What are the skills and gear that any shadowrunner you expect to survive for more than a few months would have either picked up or found an alternative to?"
In ranged combat Gymnastic dodge and Full Dodge both require a complex action to use. Without that action you only get Reaction, that applies to both skills. Moon Hawk is right, Gymnastics and [Melee skill] are all you need. If it fits your character concept.
Here my list of must haves:
Perception - It's already been said but I'll say it again. Perception is vital. Avoiding surprise, finding clues, finding the inevitable sniper, etc. The uses far outweigh the cost of the few BP you'll be using. If being hyper-alert doesn't fit you concept consider buying vision and audio enhancements on your glasses or whatever. Also, the Dark King mentor spirit gives you a bonus to Perception. Plus roleplaying that Satan has begun talking to you is uber-fun
[Random Ranged Combat] - Ever heard the expression "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"? As a GM I don't care if you want to play that technophobe swordsman who would never sully his hands by picking up a gun. It is important, however, that you don't act surprised when combat ends before you get to do anything. Guns are quick, efficient, and deadly. It's very common for all those enemies to be dead before you get close enough to do anything OR for those same baddies to have pumped you full of lead as you approached. Grab a ranged combat skill so you can participate when the lead starts flying. If you're a mage make sure to have a damaging spell instead.
Disguise - Okay, so not every character should have this one, but I thought I would bring it up because my group has often undercounted it's usefulness. For any character that has received covert military training I give him at least a rank in Disguise and the Camoflage specialization. This will help you stay unnoticed on covert runs and is more realistic than having a very high Infiltration. Just think Big Boss.
There are several skills that at least one person in the group should have.
-First Aid and/or Medicine. Spec in combat wounds.
-Social skills. Nego to get paid the Big Nuyen, Con to save your butts.
-Hardware for getting past the ubiquitous Maglock. Make sure that person is also a combat character because he's going to be there in the thick of things.
-Pilot Ground for quick getaways.
As for gear....
Sensory Enhancements - Cyber eyes or ears with the visual or audio enhancements are great for boosting Perception. The Olfactory booster is good for detecting explosives and for knowing when to avoid your girlfriend (+2 when menstruating!). If you don't want to take the essence hit you can always buy the Olfactory Sensor (3000
for a rating 6). If you mount that sensor on a vehicle you can smell things up to 4 kilometers away!
Micro-tranceiver - one of the best ways to keep in touch with the team. It has a device rating so hacking a good one (rating 6, 3000, Device Rating 6) is pretty difficult.
Smartgun/link - Makes life so much easier. With no tell-tale laser giving away your position this puppy is well worth having for Gunbunnies and light combat characters alike. You can even mount it on your Troll's bow. Combine with....
Skin Link - The ultimate in personal hack-proofing. Have a separate commlink (implanted or otherwise) set to skin link to protect your vision enhancments, smart gun, other commlink accessories, and even that paydata you just boosted. That commlink doesn't even have to be very expensive to pull this off. If you're using nanopaste disguises to camoflage yourself you can even use this comm to make and update your face paint or whatever (However you'll have to have a high Edit program to make a good disguse.)
Sim module - The book aludes to being able to send mentally composed e-mails. While the Micro-tranceiver usually covers this sort of thing, mental e-mails are the next best option. For characters without a DNI with their comm, I (keyword, I) require a sim module to interface with thoughts and compose mental e-mails. Kind of a house rule... Make sure to have a Biofeedback Filter Program just in case you're hacked and he tries to frag you.
Ultrasound - Perfect for countering foes in Chameleon Suits or Invisible spells. Have it just in case. It could save your life.
Fake SINs/licenses - Life is REALLY hard without these. That should be obvious.
That's all I can think of except a good weapon and suit of armor. Some character types require specific gear but those are obvious (Mages grab your foci/fetishes. Hackers grab your tech gear.)
Here my list of must haves:
Perception - It's already been said but I'll say it again. Perception is vital. Avoiding surprise, finding clues, finding the inevitable sniper, etc. The uses far outweigh the cost of the few BP you'll be using. If being hyper-alert doesn't fit you concept consider buying vision and audio enhancements on your glasses or whatever. Also, the Dark King mentor spirit gives you a bonus to Perception. Plus roleplaying that Satan has begun talking to you is uber-fun
[Random Ranged Combat] - Ever heard the expression "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"? As a GM I don't care if you want to play that technophobe swordsman who would never sully his hands by picking up a gun. It is important, however, that you don't act surprised when combat ends before you get to do anything. Guns are quick, efficient, and deadly. It's very common for all those enemies to be dead before you get close enough to do anything OR for those same baddies to have pumped you full of lead as you approached. Grab a ranged combat skill so you can participate when the lead starts flying. If you're a mage make sure to have a damaging spell instead.
Disguise - Okay, so not every character should have this one, but I thought I would bring it up because my group has often undercounted it's usefulness. For any character that has received covert military training I give him at least a rank in Disguise and the Camoflage specialization. This will help you stay unnoticed on covert runs and is more realistic than having a very high Infiltration. Just think Big Boss.
There are several skills that at least one person in the group should have.
-First Aid and/or Medicine. Spec in combat wounds.
-Social skills. Nego to get paid the Big Nuyen, Con to save your butts.
-Hardware for getting past the ubiquitous Maglock. Make sure that person is also a combat character because he's going to be there in the thick of things.
-Pilot Ground for quick getaways.
As for gear....
Sensory Enhancements - Cyber eyes or ears with the visual or audio enhancements are great for boosting Perception. The Olfactory booster is good for detecting explosives and for knowing when to avoid your girlfriend (+2 when menstruating!). If you don't want to take the essence hit you can always buy the Olfactory Sensor (3000
for a rating 6). If you mount that sensor on a vehicle you can smell things up to 4 kilometers away!Micro-tranceiver - one of the best ways to keep in touch with the team. It has a device rating so hacking a good one (rating 6, 3000
, Device Rating 6) is pretty difficult. Smartgun/link - Makes life so much easier. With no tell-tale laser giving away your position this puppy is well worth having for Gunbunnies and light combat characters alike. You can even mount it on your Troll's bow. Combine with....
Skin Link - The ultimate in personal hack-proofing. Have a separate commlink (implanted or otherwise) set to skin link to protect your vision enhancments, smart gun, other commlink accessories, and even that paydata you just boosted. That commlink doesn't even have to be very expensive to pull this off. If you're using nanopaste disguises to camoflage yourself you can even use this comm to make and update your face paint or whatever (However you'll have to have a high Edit program to make a good disguse.)
Sim module - The book aludes to being able to send mentally composed e-mails. While the Micro-tranceiver usually covers this sort of thing, mental e-mails are the next best option. For characters without a DNI with their comm, I (keyword, I) require a sim module to interface with thoughts and compose mental e-mails. Kind of a house rule... Make sure to have a Biofeedback Filter Program just in case you're hacked and he tries to frag you.
Ultrasound - Perfect for countering foes in Chameleon Suits or Invisible spells. Have it just in case. It could save your life.
Fake SINs/licenses - Life is REALLY hard without these. That should be obvious.
That's all I can think of except a good weapon and suit of armor. Some character types require specific gear but those are obvious (Mages grab your foci/fetishes. Hackers grab your tech gear.)
A good rated Encryption program is pretty frickin' fantastic, too. Everything out there is wireless, so you have to protect all of your hardware: guns, vehicles, commlinks, microwave ovens, vacuum cleaners, etc. I know a guy who took a laser sight for his character over a smartlink for just that reason, actually.
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| Skin Link - The ultimate in personal hack-proofing. Have a separate commlink (implanted or otherwise) set to skin link to protect your vision enhancments, smart gun, other commlink accessories, and even that paydata you just boosted. That commlink doesn't even have to be very expensive to pull this off. If you're using nanopaste disguises to camoflage yourself you can even use this comm to make and update your face paint or whatever (However you'll have to have a high Edit program to make a good disguse.) |
Im confused with this one. Why would you need to subscribe stuff to a commlink if your not gonna transmit the data? And if you are transmitting why wouldnt it be able to be hacked? example....
Ok i have a skinlinked comm and i have my cybereyes subscribed to it..for some reason. True my cybereyes are now safe from hacking but i dont need a comm to do that. Now lets pretend i want to use my skinlinked comm and cybereyes to send the image of this girl im banging to my fellow runners. I have now opened the comm up to hackers and if it does get hacked my cybereyes are vulnerable. The only way it would be safe to transmit is if the other runners came over and touched my comm in which case they probably dont need to see what im seeing......
Is a nanopaste disguise from SOTA or something? Last i heard it was just an alternate method for trodes. And although you could paint them on however you wanted you could not control the paste with your mind.
There is a disguise mask type thing (think mission impossible) but you can't change it multiple times. It needs to be programmed with the appropriate features, and once you've got the right face you can wear it, although you can't then put the mask back in the mould a reshape it, you need a new blank mask (this issue came up in my game a few weeks ago).
Your eyes need to be wireless capable to communicate with stuff like your smartlinked gun (for crosshairs etc). By subscribing to your commlink you make it tougher to hack without the hacker first spoofing your commlink and by skinlinking your 'ware you effectively make it proof from hackers without them first going through your commlink (which ought to have a high Firewall and a high rating analyse program running). Of course it all depends on how thoroughly your GM has read the hacking section of the book and how evil they're feeling.
Your eyes need to be wireless capable to communicate with stuff like your smartlinked gun (for crosshairs etc). By subscribing to your commlink you make it tougher to hack without the hacker first spoofing your commlink and by skinlinking your 'ware you effectively make it proof from hackers without them first going through your commlink (which ought to have a high Firewall and a high rating analyse program running). Of course it all depends on how thoroughly your GM has read the hacking section of the book and how evil they're feeling.
Nanopaste disguise is in the SR4 gear section, right next to latex masks.
| QUOTE (Abbadon) |
Im confused with this one. Why would you need to subscribe stuff to a commlink if your not gonna transmit the data? |
Different levels of "transmit data." Maybe you want to feed the pre-downloaded maps and photos to your eyes' image link or maybe you need to download your video feed to your comm to provide some kind of proof to your Johnson that you did something. Plus with skinlink you can transmit information between the team with a handshake. I had a rigger who equipped a microdrone with skinlink (MCT flyspy) and kept it on the back of his helmet so he could have eyes in the back of his head AND so that its pilot+clearsight would double check his perception tests.
If you wanted to transmit data, you use a chip to transfer the recorded video feed from the secure (skinlinked & radio off) comm to your "public" comm (no skinlink, no devices subscribed, max encryption, firewall, running in stealth mode).
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Is a nanopaste disguise from SOTA or something? Last i heard it was just an alternate method for trodes. And although you could paint them on however you wanted you could not control the paste with your mind. |
Check the BBB in the gear section.
The nanopaste disguise comes in two sizes: facial and full body. You link the nanpaste to your comm and give it instructions (hair color, skin color, skin texture, cosmetics, minor physical changes to appearance) and it oozes around and does its job. IIRC it lasts for about 8 hours before the batteries are exhausted and it falls apart.
... 8 hours?
I've got players who wear that crap ALL THE TIME. Had I known it only lasted 8 hours, I might have mentioned something about it
I've got players who wear that crap ALL THE TIME. Had I known it only lasted 8 hours, I might have mentioned something about it
Its 24 hours, on page 330.
I have a covert ops type and he uses it quite a bit...
I have a covert ops type and he uses it quite a bit...
Nanopaste uses your natural electricity to morph, the same field that skinlink uses. I don't see why you can't have it change, or ,if you want some retrictions, you could have only minor changes occur after the initial programming. I suggested it so that you could change it's pattern when being used for visual camoflage. Like Big Boss, yo. Except with this it makes more sense that you can change than changing in MGS3. He must have had a lot of face paint....
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