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Abbandon
When making characters what skills and gear should you absolutely try to have?

Is there a forum specifically for character generation posts? I think i saw somebody link to it but it didnt have any posts or conversations??
Geekkake
This varies by the purpose of the character. What're you trying to make?
Samoth
It depends on the character type, but I think th Athletics Skill Group is pretty much essential for an Shadowrunner.

Personally when I make characters I usually take Automatics instead of the Firearms SG, because Machine Pistols and ARs make for a good arsenal.
Brahm
My mundane, wareless character, Slim, finally picked up his first point in any firearms skill (learned on the job by picking up an assault rifle off a fallen guard, the first time he changed a magazine was.....interesting). That's after about 70 karma worth of play. I know that is a bit extreme, but I found the character entirely playable all those sessions without those skills. However it also made a lot of sense for him to get into it when he did. It likely saved the life of at least one teammate.

On the other hand I just can't see ever playing without at least a single point in Perception. It is so critical that I question whether it should have been a Skill.

P.S. I'd rank Athletics in importance somewhere around the same as Firearms.
Cleremond
I agree, it depends on what kind of character you're going for.

I have character concepts that range from the standard troll walking weapons platforms who's mantra is "Kill Kill Kill!", to a 17 year old female rigger who's paralyzed from the waist down, who works forward surveillence for a Doc Wagon extraction team, and who wouldn't know how to shoot an Ingram Smartgun to save her life (I'll be posting her in my dedicated Character thread soon).

I always make the gear fit the character and have valid explanations and justifications for what they have and, more importantly, WHY they have it.

If you put 25 BP's (125,000 nuyen) or more into starting money at character generation, gear for the typical runner is pretty much "null perspiration, chummer" at that point. Only if you're getting into the high end vehicles, cyberware/bioware, or specialty stuff does money really become a consideration.
Shrike30
Useful things for any runner include comms/PAN equipment, defensive weapons, reflex augmentation (in spell, ware, drug, or Edge form), body armor, some ration bars and water, a vehicle, changes of clothing, changes of ID, and some cash stashed away in the form of easily movable, easily resellable hard currency (read, gold or diamonds). Once you've got these, it all comes down to what you do, when you start talking essentials.
James McMurray
Infiltration, dodge or a good melee skill, athletics for skills. Camosuit for armor.

Other than that you're good with whatever fits the character, and even those aren't necessary for all character concepts. They'll definitely make your life easier if you have them.
stevebugge
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Infiltration, dodge or a good melee skill, athletics for skills. Camosuit for armor.

Other than that you're good with whatever fits the character, and even those aren't necessary for all character concepts. They'll definitely make your life easier if you have them.

I would add Ettiquette to that list, a character without basic social skills won't make it far.
James McMurray
True dat.
nezumi
I'd tend to say you'll want (in skills, equipment or character concept):
- Something offensive (magic, firearms, extremely high negotiations/etiquette)
- Something defensive (dodge, living inside of a tank, etc.)
- Something the group doesn't have but needs (magic, electronics, so on and so forth)
- At least some amount of stealth and etiquette

Brahm
I find myself not wanting to use Dodge. Unless you have managed to get your IP above your opposition the times that it seems like a good idea are very few and far inbetween. Usually you are far better off spending your IP actually helping yourself out. Basically pretty much any offensive makes a better defense than Dodge.

Good point about Etiquette though. I'd rank that somewhere between Firearms and Perception. But it is still not as critical as Perception. Of course that does depend somewhat on how often the GM calls for it, but even just for detecting Surprises it is very hard to get by without. Whereas you can mostly insulate yourself from Etiquette requirements (though it doesn't seriously limit your character).
James McMurray
Dodge is great when you're trying to escape, but I mainly use it for defending in melee. Without dodge or a good melee skill you'll get owned in close and not be able to escape.
ShadowDragon
All the characters I make tend to have at least a rank or two in the following:

Pistol skill
Athletics group
Stealth group
Perception skill
First Aid skill

I prefer to make characters well rounded with one niche - this is one of the strengths of a skill system instead of a class system like DnD. That niche is determined by the concept of the character, which never should prevent the character from taking a rank or two in those skills.

For gear I always have:

All of the vision and audio enhancements (either cyber or glasses/contacts depending on concept)
Ares Pred IV (I just love the name nyahnyah.gif and it's an awesome gun)
3 HE grenades
3 thermal grenades
3 flash-bangs
Survival knife
Trodes
Tag eraser
Signal scanner
Fake SIN (duh)
Plasteel restraints
Autopicker
Wire clippers
Chisel and hammer
Gas mask
Flashlight
Grapple gun
Stealth rope with catalyst stick
Medkit
3 stim patches
Trauma patch

If the character is mundane I always give them:

Wired 2
Platelet factories
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 3 2006, 03:31 PM)
Dodge is great when you're trying to escape, but I mainly use it for defending in melee. Without dodge or a good melee skill you'll get owned in close and not be able to escape.

Using Dodge in melee is just delaying the inevitable. Unless your side is in total control of the fight to start with, meaning you significantly outnumber the opposition you do an on the fly Dodge and let your buddy counterattack your attacker.

Even when running away you usually have just as effective if not more effective actions to perform.

Melee Skill is something entirely different, and is something that falls into the very important Defensive ability catagory. Even if it also happens to fall into the Offensive catagory too.
Shrike30
QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
For gear I always have: ...

If the character is mundane I always give them:...

Doesn't that get kinda boring after a while?
Lagomorph
I have to agree about Perception and even Ettiquette, They're both pretty much essential, you can't walk down a street with out needing one or both of those.

Personally, I think that a datajack and a commlink are pretty much required also, and probably a fake sin.

And a 10 foot pole!
James McMurray
Wow. I can't believe I forgot perception. That skill alone means the difference between life and death in sooo many situations.

QUOTE
Using Dodge in melee is just delaying the inevitable.


If I have a character that sucks in melee but friends nearby, dodging can be a good idea. I agree that dodging in and of itself is usually a bad idea (unless you're well outgunned and just want some breathing room). I only use dodge in melee if the character concept doesn't lend itself to having an actual melee skill, otherwise I go with the "a good melee skill" option in the original post.

QUOTE
Even when running away you usually have just as effective if not more effective actions to perform.


Depends on how many guns you're running away from, and what kinds of bursts they're firing at you. smile.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 3 2006, 04:58 PM)
If I have a character that sucks in melee but friends nearby, dodging can be a good idea.

I suggest an even better idea is to have spent the BP on Unarmed instead of Dodge to start with. smile.gif

QUOTE
Depends on how many guns you're running away from, and what kinds of bursts they're firing at you. smile.gif


If you can't just run away you better figure out an action fast to get you some some cover or concealment to put a serious dent into their dice pools, because if there are multiple people aiming at you the -2 dice your defense to per attack is going to eat through any Dodge you might have really damn fast and then you, my friend, are right humped.

I recommend having a smoke grenade handy. Custom shorten the fuse if you don't have a GL to allow you to airburst it. That gives you the same as a Dodge 2, or Dodge 4 if they have normal vision. A thermal smoke can really screw up the aim of folks with Thermal vision, so if you don't Thermal vision then you might want to consider using one of those instead. As a bonus you might even obscure which way you went, plus the bonus lasts a lot longer than Dodge without expending even more actions. Also if you can Quickdraw it you've even got a simple action left on to do something else.

EDIT: Also with that last guy having an extra -2 dice/-4 dice to your defenses, you are just as well off attacking if in doing so you can prevent him from attacking you, unless you a quite high (expensive) Dodge.
GB1
IMO:

Athletics group

Perception skill (at least 1 point)

"fighting" skill (whatever floats your boat)

=)
James McMurray
QUOTE
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 3 2006, 04:58 PM)
If I have a character that sucks in melee but friends nearby, dodging can be a good idea.

I suggest an even better idea is to have spent the BP on Unarmed instead of Dodge to start with. smile.gif


Did you miss the part where I talked about melee skill not fitting the character concept?

QUOTE
If you can't just run away you better figure out an action fast to get you some some cover or concealment to put a serious dent into their dice pools, because if there are multiple people aiming at you the -2 dice your defense to per attack is going to eat through any Dodge you might have really damn fast and then you, my friend, are right humped.


Right, and dodging can help you survive the trip into cover. It's only -1 die per attack IIRC. Still painful, but if you've got a decent dodge skill and decent reaction you ought to be able to make it to cover. If all you've got is a decent reaction you may find yourself dead before your turn rolls around.

I'm not saying dodge is the be-all end-all of skills. Far from it. But it does have it's uses, and there are times when having dodge will give you a chance to live through something that might otherwise have killed you. How often that happens depends on the game and the team. If it doesn't hapen much in your games, ignore dodge. If it does, stock up on it.

QUOTE
I recommend having a smoke grenade handy. Custom shorten the fuse if you don't have a GL to allow you to airburst it.  That gives you the same as a Dodge 2, or Dodge 4 if they have normal vision.  A thermal smoke can really screw up the aim of folks with Thermal vision, so if you don't Thermal vision then you might want to consider using one of those instead.  As a bonus you might even obscure which way you went, plus the bonus lasts a lot longer than Dodge without expending even more actions.  Also if you can Quickdraw it you've even got a simple action left on to do something else.


That's a good idea, but not always applicable. And unless you want to drop that smoke at your feet and possibly screw with your teammates then you'll need to invest in throwing skill. Again, something that might not fit a character concept.
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
Personally, I think that a datajack and a commlink are pretty much required also, and probably a fake sin.

I don't understand why a datajack is so must have. Are you sure you're not in the 3rd edition mindset? What can a datajack do that trodes and a commlink can't?

As far as I can tell, the only reason to get a datajack is for flavor (such as an old decker before 2.0).
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (Shrike30)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon @ Jul 3 2006, 01:48 PM)
For gear I always have: ...

If the character is mundane I always give them:...

Doesn't that get kinda boring after a while?

Why would it be boring? That's just a base for other things I add. Dispite having a large list of must haves, characters can still be radically different. After all of that gear, I've only spent around 15 BP.
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 3 2006, 05:25 PM)
Did you miss the part where I talked about melee skill not fitting the character concept?

If it really makes you feel better write it down on your character sheet as "Unarmed Turtling" and don't ever use it to attack. nyahnyah.gif Seriously; basically same turds, different pile.

QUOTE
Right, and dodging can help you survive the trip into cover.


If it takes more than your movement to get to cover? This makes taking out that guy even more important. But once again the grenade does this without costing you the extra actions. You can spend the extra actions using covering fire for yourself, casting a spell, summoning a spirit, tossing a more room-clearing style of grenade. etc.

QUOTE
It's only -1 die per attack IIRC.


Ah, right you are. But for the most part it doesn't change the situation much.

QUOTE
I'm not saying dodge is the be-all end-all of skills. Far from it. But it does have it's uses, and there are times when having dodge will give you a chance to live through something that might otherwise have killed you. How often that happens depends on the game and the team. If it doesn't hapen much in your games, ignore dodge. If it does, stock up on it.


I'm not saying it is without use, but I am suggesting it is dangerously close to a waste of BP. Gymnastics as an alternative to Dodge is the cinch on that. Below a level of 3 I'll even be so bold to say it IS a waste of Skill points outside of the "I'm never going to throw a punch, but I'm going to be stupid enough to leave myself in a place where someone is likely to punch me....oh, and I've got IP to burn and nothing better to do with them" concept of a character.

At 3 and above you are very likely better off to put it into something that'll bail you out of, or avoid you getting into, the odd situation where Dodge might come up.

QUOTE

That's a good idea, but not always applicable. And unless you want to drop that smoke at your feet and possibly screw with your teammates then you'll need to invest in throwing skill.


In any event this is a bugout situation, and you are probably less likely to screw with your teammates just dropping it at your feet. Beside if you have friends then why aren't you using them for cover. smile.gif
Dr. Dodge
QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE
Right, and dodging can help you survive the trip into cover.


If it takes more than your movement to get to cover? This makes taking out that guy even more important. But once again the grenade does this without costing you the extra actions. You can spend the extra actions using covering fire for yourself, casting a spell, summoning a spirit, tossing a more room-clearing style of grenade. etc.

you can go on full defense before it's your turn, so yeah it can help you actually get to cover before you're dead (plus being able to use dodge + dodge in melee full defense) while you have to wait for your turn to drop that grenade. so yeah if you're more defensive minded than offensive, i dont see why its so bad. though gymnastics is definitely better for the "cost" conscious.
Cynic project
I would say Etiquette, Stealth, some sort of gathering info skill.

In shadowrun, you can't always beat people up with your fists. You can't always run faster than them. You can however know what you are facing,have good friends and know how to keep a low profile. Shadowruners will never win in an escalating arms race with an A level corp, let alone one the big ten.

So if you get a job you need to know everything you can. You need to know people to get the gear you need. And if things go FUBAR you need to have the ability to run and hide, cause no mater how big your guns are, they have bigger.
James McMurray
QUOTE
If it really makes you feel better write it down on your character sheet as "Unarmed Turtling" and don't ever use it to attack.  Seriously; basically same turds, different pile.


That would involve at some point studying unarmed turtling. Dodge comes from being picked on in Gym class. wink.gif

QUOTE
If it takes more than your movement to get to cover? This makes taking out that guy even more important. But once again the grenade does this without costing you the extra actions. You can spend the extra actions using covering fire for yourself, casting a spell, summoning a spirit, tossing a more room-clearing style of grenade. etc.


*sigh* Feel free to continue arguing if you'd like. I've already said that dodge is not the best alternative most of the time, but that there are times when it's valuable. I can counteract your specifics with ones of my own, then you counter with ones of yours, etc. etc. but it's pointless. There are times in the games I've run and played, where dropping a smoke grenade is a bad idea, trying to shoot a single enemy is a bad idea because you need the defense dice, covering fire is useless because they're already in cover, and the character is not magical. And sometimes you just need to stay alive right now. When you're under heavy fire waiting for your initiative to roll around so you can throw a grenade can seem like an eternity.

Feel free to post other times when dodging isn't the best idea, I'm sure you'll be right. But if you think dodging is never the best idea either I need to study at the ways of your tactical genius or you need to study at mine. smile.gif

QUOTE
I'm never going to throw a punch, but I'm going to be stupid enough to leave myself in a place where someone is likely to punch me


If you never find yourself in a position to be punched the GM isn't doing his job right. wink.gif

QUOTE
In any event this is a bugout situation, and you are probably less likely to screw with your teammates just dropping it at your feet.


Sometimes only one guy (you) needs to bail out.
Glyph
There aren't that many have-to have skills in SR4, compared to SR3. I would take at least 1 point in the Perception skill. Dodge is also important - other skills can approximate it, but if you aren't somehow covered for defending in melee and when running to cover, then you need dodge. Some may not need it - an elven speed sam with high melee and gymnastics skills, for example. But others, such as mages or deckers who aren't oriented towards melee, should definitely pick it up. Unarmed turtling is only good if the GM lets you play Donatello.

Other skills may not be essential, but are very nice to have. Etiquette used to be absolutely essential, but they have skill ratings of 0 now, so you don't need car: 1 to drive down the street or etiquette: 1 simply to function in normal society. It is still useful, though. Likewise infiltration and all of the athletics skills - even at a low level, because they cover so many situations that runners find themselves in.

Getting more into personal preference, I think runners should be very good at their chosen specialty, but have at least some kind of ability to defend themselves. Maybe not enough to tempt them to do anything other than seek cover when the sammies and adepts start trading bursts with the sec guards, but enough to handle the occasional enemy that slips through and threatens them.
Nidhogg
Always max out your Bad-Assery skill. It lets you add its skill rating to all of your other tests, because the more bad-ass you are, the better you are at doing everything. Roll high enough and it may refund all of your Essance, turn you in to an adept-drake, and make the entire community hate you (but it doesn't matter, because you're bad-ass).
Clyde
Dodge has offensive uses, too! The use of Dodge in ranged combat calls for a complex action, but you can run while taking it. So you get your Reaction + Dodge + 2 (for running) = pretty much unshootable. That's coming and going, so you can run to a position that flanks your enemies or otherwise denies them their cover modifiers. You're also liable to draw a lot of fire, which is a little perverse because you're harder to hit than a guy with partial cover, but that can be a great thing if you've got a teammate who wants to pop up and lay down the Manaball action.

I'd call Dodge pretty much a HAVE to have. If you're a primary or secondary combatant you'll have opportunities to use it tactically. If combat's not your thing, then it's just as important because you'll need it to run away!

As for gear: some kind of armor. You may not be a gunslinger or a codeslinger, but if it's just your Body stat between you and Oblivion you're going to be saying "hi" to Oblivion really, really soon!! grinbig.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Clyde)
Dodge has offensive uses, too! The use of Dodge in ranged combat calls for a complex action, but you can run while taking it. So you get your Reaction + Dodge + 2 (for running) = pretty much unshootable. That's coming and going, so you can run to a position that flanks your enemies or otherwise denies them their cover modifiers. You're also liable to draw a lot of fire, which is a little perverse because you're harder to hit than a guy with partial cover, but that can be a great thing if you've got a teammate who wants to pop up and lay down the Manaball action.

or you could just do a gymnastics dodge for ranged defense.
FanGirl
The big problem I have with the question is that it implies that there's some skill or item that U MSUT HVAE OR UR TEH STUPED ZOMG!!!!1 And as many people have already said, that's simply not so.* In order for you to figure what your character needs, you need to think about what you want him to do and what tools he would require to do them.

My two nusen (1 nusen = 0.01 nuyen): the SR4 sample character sheets are your friends. Lots of players think that even glancing at those sheets somehow makes them less of a man, but I believe that they are very good basic designs. Take a sample sheet that most closely corresponds to your character, hack off the aspects you really don't want, and tack on the aspects you really do want. For example, FanGirl (my character) is essentially the sample Technomancer with a few alterations.

It's a bit like getting a computer: if you know very little about computer hardware, it would be ill-advised to build your own. You'd almost definitely be better off to buy one of the prefabs at the computer store, or else to cajole one of your more skilled friends into making one for you. Once you get a better understanding of your computer's hardware, you can probably start to make a few minor alterations to your prefab, but only when you have achieved an intuitive and intimate understanding of the workings of a computer should you attempt to build one from scratch. Until then, you've got to accept the fact that you're making your first few baby steps, and you should look to the experts to lead you by the hand until you can make it on your own.

*Except in the case of the commlink. You gotta have that.
adamu
The two holy rules of what skills to take at chargen:

One - do your character's history FIRST, and then just take whatever skills he would have, regardless of what will help you "win." The principles of universal justice will eventually reward the true roleplayer.

Two - if you want to "win," it will ALL depend on your GM's style. Some never bother you with a perception test, which if you fail you won't see their cool clue. Some will. Some will never challenge you no matter how fancy you get with your commlink. Some will hit you with tests from the full range of the Electronics group. Some will let you roleplay all your social interactions. Some will make you roll dice for them no matter how great a pitch you as a player come up with.
Take the skills to help with the things your GM leans on dice for.

Don't know your GM that well? Refer to Rule One.
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 3 2006, 08:00 PM)
I've already said that dodge is not the best alternative most of the time, but that there are times when it's valuable.

So why the frack would you put such a skill on a must have list? There might be times when it is about as good as others, but you need to sinking 16BP+ into it to start finding the odd time when it is actually tactically better. That's a lot of build points for making it worthwhile for it to show up on any sort of HAVE TO list. ohplease.gif Especially when you can put those Build Points into say the multipurpose Edge, where it's actually going to get used on a regular basis, to come up with a very similar "pull your ass out of the fire on that rare occation" effect.

QUOTE

QUOTE

In any event this is a bugout situation, and you are probably less likely to screw with your teammates just dropping it at your feet.

Sometimes only one guy (you) needs to bail out.

Which is what I (we?) were talking about to start with.....before you tossed out the red herring.
Brahm
QUOTE (adamu @ Jul 4 2006, 04:53 AM)
The two holy rules of what skills to take at chargen:

One - do your character's history FIRST, and then just take whatever skills he would have, regardless of what will help you "win."  The principles of universal justice will eventually reward the true roleplayer.

rotfl.gif ohplease.gif Ok then, if you want to frame the question like that: "What things do shadowrunning people need to be able to do to survive." Exawple Answer: "Be aware of WTF is going on." Of course if a character is one of those rare "catheter in, VR always on" types then your are talking the Matrix equivalent of Perception.

QUOTE
Two - if you want to "win," it will ALL depend on your GM's style.  Some never bother you with a perception test, which if you fail you won't see their cool clue. Some will.  Some will never challenge you no matter how fancy you get with your commlink.  Some will hit you with tests from the full range of the Electronics group.  Some will let you roleplay all your social interactions.  Some will make you roll dice for them no matter how great a pitch you as a player come up with. 
Take the skills to help with the things your GM leans on dice for.

Even if your GM doesn't call for Perception checks often it is still pretty damn important if only to keep from being surprised ganked (there is combat that happens in the game, right? you aren't playing gritty world of thespians on stage?). If you have a GM that tosses out/ignores that rule too? Well yes that is possible, but at that point we are talking about a different game. Sure hang a disclaimer on this, "Assuming playing something closely resembling RAW."
ornot
I agree with Fangirl, with the caveat that your character needs a reason to be running the shadows. Of course there are many reasons to be running the shadows, so that shouldn't be so much of a problem.

I also agree with Fangirl about checking out the sample characters, not only for the cool (IMHO) artwork but also to see what sort of skills are appropriate. The first character I made for SR3 was based on the street mage. I poked in the players guide for a few edges and flaws, tweaked her spells and gear and skills and I was good to go. By the third session I had a well developed background to accompany her skill sets and a pretty good personality.
James McMurray
QUOTE
So why the frack would you put such a skill on a must have list?


If you go back and read the post I said you need either dodge or a melee skill, not that dodge itself was mandatory. The reason is that if you get yourself into melee with someone that's even halfway skilled and you are defaulting you're probably in trouble unless you have a high agility, in which case you should probably have gotten a little melee skill of your own in order to kick some booty.

IIRC (this may be a holdover from prior editions) if you try to move past someone without attacking them they get to attack you, and if they hit you're stopped. Not having a melee skill or dodge can be the difference between escaping a run gone bad and winding up in some corp's secret testing lab wondering why you've got noses for fingers. The addition that dodge is useful for avoiding bullets is secondary but still nice to have.
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 4 2006, 10:27 AM)
If you go back and read the post I said you need either dodge or a melee skill, not that dodge itself was mandatory.

You put it, a weak skill choice, as an option on a HAVE TO list. That seems like a correct reading? My point is that it's a really, really, really, really bad option. So much so that it is misleading to put it on the list.

QUOTE
The reason is that if you get yourself into melee with someone that's even halfway skilled and you are defaulting you're probably in trouble unless you have a high agility, in which case you should probably have gotten a little melee skill of your own in order to kick some booty.


.... which Dodge doesn't really help with. Dodge is inferior to all but those characters that don't ever attack in melee. Even mages given Touch range spells. It again begs the question WTF would such a character sit around to get beat down, and why aren't they filling in the IP using their other skills or actions.

Dodge is quite heavily vested Defense, and SR heavily favours Offense over Defense. So much so that a defense Skill really isn't even a requirement (with or without Infiltration) outside of maybe a single point to avoid Defaulting (which is arguably not applicable when defending against melee).
James McMurray
QUOTE
You put it, a weak skill choice, as an option on a HAVE TO list. That seems like a correct reading? My point is that it's a really, really, really, really bad option. So much so that it is misleading to put it on the list.


Yes, you HAVE TO have some means of defending yourself in melee. If you do not, you will find yourself in situations where you basically just fall over dead.

QUOTE
.... which Dodge doesn't really help with. Dodge is inferior to all but those characters that don't ever attack in melee.


Perhaps you're yet again ignoring the part where I said melee skills don't fit some character concepts? Yes, melee is a better option for defending yourself in melee, but it isn't always appropriate.

QUOTE
It again begs the question WTF would such a character sit around to get beat down, and why aren't they filling in the IP using their other skills or actions.


You can go on full defense before your turn starts. If you're dead before your IP rolls around because you were caught in the open and never get a chance to use your uber-l33t mad offensive skills, those skills are absoultey worthless.

QUOTE
Dodge is quite heavily vested Defense, and SR heavily favours Offense over Defense. So much so that a defense Skill really isn't even a requirement (with or without Infiltration) outside of maybe a single point to avoid Defaulting (which is arguably not applicable when defending against melee).


Obviously I disagree. There are times when it is not your IP and you need to stay alive. I prefer staying alive via skills to staying alive via burning edge, because the skill will leave you still active in the combat and doesn't use up a permanent resource. YMMV of course. Perhaps it's down to different game styles or something?

In the games I've ran and played in, dodge has been used left and right. Maybe we tend to outnumber the runners and and concentrate fire more or something. The other methods you described are also used, but sometimes those aren't available for whatever reason (primarily it not being your IP).
ornot
In the games I've run Dodge has proved it's utility when the characters got caught in the open by a drone with it's light machine gun. Since the drone has more initiative passes (Wired reflexes 2 gives +2 IP, while a rigged drone gets +3 IP) they knew thay had to get behind cover before the thing chewed them up. Even assuming they had hit it (it was at long range for their pistols and only short for its LMG) they were unlikely to have destroyed it before it had time to pepper them with a great deal of lead. Using Dodge gave the characters a chance to reach cover from where they could swap clips for some APDS and XX, the better to penetrate its armour.

If you're saying that situation never occurs or only occurs rarely in your games then what are you fighting? I find drones are far more effective forms of defense for a corp or compound. After all, a drone can be repaired or salvaged, while people have pesky families to compensate and suchlike.
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Yes, you HAVE TO have some means of defending yourself in melee.

....which does not equate to HAVE TO have a Skill to do so.
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 4 2006, 11:01 AM)
Perhaps you're yet again ignoring the part where I said melee skills don't fit some character concepts? Yes, melee is a better option for defending yourself in melee, but it isn't always appropriate.

Perhaps I have yet again address the same dead point you keep bring up over and over? nyahnyah.gif
QUOTE
In the games I've ran and played in, dodge has been used left and right. Maybe we tend to outnumber the runners and and concentrate fire more or something. The other methods you described are also used, but sometimes those aren't available for whatever reason (primarily it not being your IP).

You can also find places where Crack is used left and right. wink.gif Maybe you outclass your opponents enough that lesser sit-back tactics win the day anyway?

EDIT: In an emergency situation you really shouldn't sit back and wait for crap to happen. Act, not react. Second last session I played was an excellent example of this. Three of us in a hallway and anyone of use could have been the target chosen. So all three of use should have gone Dodge, let him get in a shot, and a second, and likely a third and a forth while we all turtled? Instead I burned a point of Edge and went first (all three of us would have gone after the opponent if I hadn't). I shot (another point of Edge) and in the end of it all very likely saved at least one life given the nasty heat the guards were packing. Sure makes me glad I had that spare Edge (cost 10BP) instead of wasting it on 3 points of Dodge (cost 12 BP).
James McMurray
Ah well. You've hit the insults phase of your arguments, so there's no need to continue. I've said my piece and you've said yours. Obviously we disagree, and you feel it necessary to get insulting rather than actually discuss the things you constantly ignore. Saying "you should have a melee skill" doesn't address "melee skills don't fit for some character concepts," it ignores it.

One thing you've never responded to that multiple people have mentioned is that none of your suggested defensive options are available when it's not your IP. Smoke grenades, panther assault cannons, 36 melee dice, and force 53 manaballs are all useless when you get shot at before you've had a chance to act that turn. I'd be interested in hearing a response to that, since it's quite possible to die before your first initiative pass ever comes up.
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 4 2006, 11:27 AM)
You've hit the insults phase of your arguments....

You mean insults like your "Perhaps you're yet again ignoring the part where I said melee skills don't fit some character concepts?" when I clearly addressed it before.

Yes, I guess it is time for you mount up on your hypocritcal horse and mosey out. Good riddance.
James McMurray
Saying you're ignoring something isn't an insult. Obviously your opinion differs. LOL

Your response was to get "unarmed turtling" and never attack with it. Compared to Dodge that's a waste of points because you can use dodge in melee and ranged combat, and can declare dodging on someone else's turn against incoming fire.

And you still continue to ignore the fact that dodge is available on others' turns, before your initiative pass rolls around. LOL
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 4 2006, 11:39 AM)
Saying you're ignoring something isn't an insult. Obviously your opinion differs. LOL

No, instead of being just as insulting as I posted it could be just that you are clueless enough to not notice that I actually acknowledge the presence of your previously mentioned (a few times) lame point right in the post, and that I point out it isn't even particularly nessasary to have the defensive skill at all, but then have to connect the dots for you again.

QUOTE
And you still continue to ignore the fact that dodge is available on others' turns, before your initiative pass rolls around. LOL


Well that certainly gives some credibility to your cluelessness plea.

So.....happy trails too you....
James McMurray
Ah yes, the tried-and-true "You're right, but not right enough. <insert insult here> Now I'll leave because I'm beaten but want to look cool." Haven of losers everywhere. LOL

By the way "it's happy trails to you." If you're going to be insulting, at least be intelligent about it.

Editing in a counterpoint doesn't change anything, it just puts it out of temporal order and makes it look like something you'd thought of all along.

QUOTE
EDIT: In an emergency situation you really shouldn't sit back and wait for crap to happen. Act, not react. Second last session I played was an excellent example of this. Three of us in a hallway and anyone of use could have been the target chosen. So all three of use should have gone Dodge, let him get in a shot, and a second, and likely a third and a forth while we all turtled? Instead I burned a point of Edge and went first (all three of us would have gone after the opponent if I hadn't). I shot (another point of Edge) and in the end of it all very likely saved at least one life given the nasty heat the guards were packing. Sure makes me glad I had that spare Edge (cost 10BP) instead of wasting it on 3 points of Dodge (cost 12 BP).


You don't all go on defense. The guy that gets shot at goes on defense. If you're all getting shot at there's no reason for anyone to go on defense because you're not going to be facing large losses to your defense dice.
Geekkake
It's just not a Dumpshock thread until McMurray gets in a fight with someone.
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray)
You don't all go on defense. The guy that gets shot at goes on defense. If you're all getting shot at there's no reason for anyone to go on defense because you're not going to be facing large losses to your defense dice.

You are still getting shot at unmolested. Likely at a odds disadvantage even if you dumped double digit BP into the single use skill Dodge. So for a recap of the points at hand:
1) Shoot first.
2) Shoot last.
3) Typo corrections are the last gasps of the truely lost causes.
4) ...untul wee meat agen....
James McMurray
Not true at all. There are tons of threads I'm in that I don't get in arguments. I just get annoyed when someone tries to say someone is wrong when they're ignoring or glossing over what's being said. This thread is a case of that. Or when someone is shooting down an idea simply because of who thought it up. Several of emo samurai's threads contain examples of that. Or when people are just plain rude for no reason, whether it's towards me or not. Above all I don't like it when people make claims that are downright untrue in such a public forum because it's really easy for false information to confuse or sway people that are new to a game, setting, or whatever.

A good number of threads I'm in seem to devolve into arguments, but IMO it's because a lot of people can't stand to have opposing viewpoints shown without somehow thinking it's an attack on them or their ideas. It's a pretty common thing, although Dumpshock's general level of debatery tends to magnify it. For some reason people tend to respond more forcefully to critiques of their written words then their spoken ones. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of debates on DS would not happen in real life, because most people prefer to gloss over confrontation in person, and a good number of those like to leap on top of it witht heir internet persona. I don't leave myself out of those categories either.

If someone at a convention wants to rave on and on about how SR4 sucks compared to their heavily house ruled conglomeration of SR1-3 I'll sit there and nod until I find a chance to wander off, primarily because that sort of person is impossible to debate with, they're not spreading their false information elsewhere, and we're not in the midst of an SR4 convention. Online though, we're in an SR4 forum, there are a lot of people reading that may not know that some things are untrue or misrepresented, and while the person is still as impossible to convince, onlookers can be. In that regard it's like the difference between debating through the wall in an empty public toilet and debating in front of a crowd possibly containing some impressionable minds. You try harder when there are people that could benefit from it.

There's also been several threads where had I not gotten into an argument I wouldn't have learned things. Nothing brings knowledge oozing out of the DS woodwork then the statement "I could be wrong, but I think ___." smile.gif
James McMurray
QUOTE (Brahm)
1) Shoot first.
2) Shoot last.
3) Typo corrections are the last gasps of the truely lost causes.
4) ...untul wee meat agen....

You can't always shoot first. In those cases it's possible that your opponent will get to shoot last.

Bu-bye

By the way: it's insults that are the second to last gasps, not typo corrections. Mentioning Nazis is first, typo corrections is somewhere around 6th. smile.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 4 2006, 12:57 PM)
You can't always shoot first. In those cases it's possible that your opponent will get to shoot last.

Still trying to piss into the wind of reason I see. Sure there could be the rare subset of the rare case where you don't have the option of acting first. For times like that there is Edge. Then for the rare times you've already run out of Edge....well you've already tapped out your character and likely have gotten much further than the poor sap that wasted their BP on Dodge and their health on waiting for the other guy to shoot at him.

It's really more about priorities, not HAVE TOs. And in the world of SR Dodge is a limited use, one use Skill that is a high priority for Rent-A-Guards and other assorted sheep just trying to react and punch their clock for 45 years to make it to their pension and a nice pink house underneath the freeway. It is a low priority for PCs that are there to act.

If "reacting sheep" is your character concept then move over into the snooze lane and get the hell out of the way of the people in the shadow lane! Or your are going to end up a corpse with tire tracks.
QUOTE
By the way: it's insults that are the second to last gasps, not typo corrections. Mentioning Nazis is first, typo corrections is somewhere around 6th. 

Um, that would be a typo corrections as an insult attempt...due to running out of potentially valid points....Skippy. Playing the Nazi Card = stopped gasping 10 minutes ago. nyahnyah.gif
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