What would be the essence cost of a generic DNI connection that exits on the surface of the skin? Would a DNI connection that exits at your wrist so that you could just link up your wrist commlink to it after waking up be a viable alternative to the implanted commlink? And, if so, what cost in essence would that DNI connection be?

Such implants are called... DataJacks.

Yeah, I know that. I'm talking about something else entirely. I'm thinking something along the lines of a DNI port that is simply just a contact pad or something easily plugged into. However, datajacks might do the trick but would be blatantly obvious when sticking out of your wrist. Maybe a miniaturized datajack type thing. What would be the essence on that?

A higher grade of datajack would probably be less obvious. For five thousand dollars a Delta Datajack will cost you .05 Essence and probably be pretty descrete.

The problem is the port, not the jack itself ... or rather, even that isn't.

It's more or less flavour and (usually) player decision if his datajack(s) are obvious or disguised - a simple protective cover will usually do. Of course you could just build a Skinlink into the covering, and ... voilà ... you have a disguised Datajack that doesn't even need a cable to connect to your commlink - for just an extra 150 .

DNI Skinlink? Interesting...

Hmm, so basically you are thinking along the lines of the Subdermal Pads that used to come with a 3rd Edition Smartlink Implant?

Personally I think I'd treat it like Phobos has suggested, while keeping in mind that the implant could clearly be felt under the skin. (With Skinlinks personally I'd put my Datajack someplace where people are very unlikely to ever look for it, and carry a Skinlinked Chip Reader, or have a second Datajack installed for those times where I'd want to slot a chip...)

There used to be exactly the piece of ware you wanted, called an 'inductive datajack' for, erm, .3 essence and 2000Y iirc.

i would hazard a guess that a SR4 datajack is port optional.

with wireless and skinlink, plus the fact that SR4 datajacks come with data storage, allows one to forgo the physical port.

lets just say that any skillsoft or similar is basicly a signal 0 rfid and a battery.
this means that you can in theory read it from 3 meters away.

it allso allows you to have them skinlink modified. thereby allowing them to be read just by touching them.

i would allow for the player to say if the datajack comes with a port or not, without any extra cost. its a flavor thing mostly.

still, a port do allow for the physical wiring of two minds together
see that fan-story thats on this forum.

You get skinlink on devices...your wrist commlink would get skinlinked and you can use it any time your touching it. To bypass the stupid commlink as your hub with smartgun/link you skinlink the guns you use....

Your wanting to skinlink parts of your body so you dont have to rebuy it everytime you get a new gun or new commlink??

Not really. Basically I just wanted an induction datajack (thank you Crusher Bob) type "port" that would allow me to link my Commlink to DNI without having to implant it. Just because it's skinlinked doesn't mean I can access it mentally.

You could just link your commlink via fiberoptic cale into your commlink.

I'm a fan of my idea for having a DNI skinlink implant but there isn;t one in the book. Datajack work just as well I guess...

Ok im gonna toss out some examples of how i understand things to work and you guys correct me.

#1. a smartgun can transmit its data through a skinlink to the hand of whoever is holding it and the data can travel to the guys cybereyes.

#2. can a smartgun wirelessly transmit directly with cybereyes?

#3. smartgun transmits data to your external comm which passes it on to your cybereyes.

#4. smartgun transmits to your external comm which connects via cable to a datajack which then transmits to your cybereyes

#5. smartgun transmits to your external comm which uses electrodes to send the data to your cybereyes.

Are you guys saying that when you use skinlink its just using your body as a type of cable and you still have to have something on either end to transmit and receive the data?

So you have your comm or gun skinlinked. Then the info is being carried along the surface of your skin to a datajack or trode net that also has skinlinks to pick up the info?

How the hell does nanopaste trodes work? How does a commlink send data to paste. How does paste pick up the information? How often do you have to apply the paste? Do you think there would be some way to inbed trodes or paste as a body mod or something? Like the paste could be tattooed into your skin?

So if two dudes with skinlinked comms and nanapaste trodes were holding hands they could have entrie conversations mentally?

Is it possable to communicate if two people with nanopaste trodes touch each other in a way that there trodes are touching they cant talk directly with each other?

Ok im a mage with a commlink and a trode net. No sim module. Can i view AR with normal eyes (no glasses, contacts, and whatnot). Since trodes are two way can he mentally write emails or make commands without gloves?

Are AR gloves only for people who arent using trodes?

Whats the difference between putting trodes on your head as opposed to the bottom of your feet. I mean the command to move my finger has to travel my entire nervous system before my finger moves. So why do trodes only have to be over the brain. It kinda sucks that trodes have to be on your head. I'd love to out have them out of view like along my spine.

Any suggestions for kool trode set-up for the head?

Is guess my most basic question is whats the bare minimum somebody needs to view and interact with AR without being cybered.

another bare minimum is a comlink with glasses, headset and gloves.

that way you can see, hear and interact with the AR interface...

and i think the reason for the trodes being on the head is because it covers all the bases of I/O with the body, you can input both visual and audio data there (and even more if needed) and read out all other kinds of data.

btw, the book talks about trodes often being coverd up by hats or wigs and similar. so even tho you use a trode net you dont have to look like your doing so

So unless you have cyberparts you have to have a sim module to turn the data into sensations.

Im having trouble with trodes and giving commands......

Ok lets say you commlink with no sim mod. You use glasses to see images and stuff, you use earbuds to hear audio information, i dont know what a glove would tell you but whatever.

Could you have a trode net on also. Then lets say you see the image of a node in your vision and you want to opon it...instead of using your glove and "clicking buttons" couldnt you just use your trodes to give the command to open it mentally?

Its seems like yeah ok to recieve sensory input you gotta either have an electronic device or have a sim module but performing mental commands with trodes such as making choices or composing mental emails should be possable.

I dont get why an AR glove is necessary to interact with the matrix if you can give mental commands. Mental commands definately dont need a sim module to be understood otherwise you couldnt bypass a commlink to use smartgun/link via skinlinks and trodes/jacks.
--------------------

Sub vocal trodes. if you talked into your sub vocal trodes and sent it off to a fellow runner who was running a commlink with a sim module and a trode net would he be able to hear you? Wouldnt you have to record what you said with a simrig in order for the commlink of the runner you are trying to communicate with to translate it into simsense ? I mean a sim module cant just INJECT simsense into something can it? How the hell would the sim module know what the guy sending the message sounded like or how loud or soft it was said ??

gloves would tell you touch data, like if the "object" you just came into contact with is buzzing, have spikes or whatever. it allso allows you to type on virtual keyboards and all that kinda stuff.

gloves, glasses and all that stuff is only needed if you dont go with a sim module and trodes. trodes without a sim module dont work at all.

a jack on the other hand basicly have a sim module buildt in (atleast thats how i understand the book).

and who said you could bypass a comlink and do the smartgun thing with just trodes? just a jack, maybe. but not with just trodes.

smartgun w/ skinlink -> trodes with skinlink -> cybereyes

cant work that way.

you would get smartgun w/ skinlink to display the crosshairs and other data onto the cybereyes, but the trodes would just be dead weight.

the trodes alone do not have any way of translating data into simsense. thats why the comlink needs a sim module for the trodes to handle AR.

allso, if you route the smartgun via a comlink with a sim module and trodes:
smartgun -> comlink w/ sim module -> trodes

you could forgo the cybereyes i think as it would display the crosshairs and stuff using AR.

im starting to think that the unified matrix world of SR4 is a bigger mess then the old...

and i guess its the duplication that makes people like abbadon confused, because all previous SR versions rarely have had more then one way of doing things.

about the only case i can think of is in m&m where they broke down the smartlink into component parts and told you what you could use as replacements.

True, I will admit that after reading through the rules a couple times, that was a point of confusion for me as well. Having more than one way to do things added to the complexity, but once you start to understand the nature of AR and how it is used by the vast majority of the population, you start to see why the developers had to give more options.

I mean, it is totally unfair to restrict mystic/adepts from using AR, which is basically what you are doing if you are forcing them to spend essence to gain access. So, the typical mystic/adept can access AR without any loss of essence and even go full out VR (cold or hot sim) by picking up a commlink, modded sim module and trodes...granted, they are not going to be as good as a character that picks up the additional skills and programs to run in the matrix, but you don't completely cut them out either...

Hobgoblin wtf you just contradicted yourself.

First you said you gotta have a device that transmits data through a skinlink and then it travels over your body and connects to another device that is also skinlinked that can then send the information on to your cybereyes/ears.


Then you said no thats not how it works. You just have a device with skinlink and it magically gets to your cybereyes?? Dont you have to pick up the information being sent across your skin with a device such as a datajack or trode net? How do the cybereyes know what to do with the info since it hasnt been converted to simsense??

if a fellow runner beams a map of the building we are currently attacking over to my commlink and i link my eyes up to view it do i have to have a sim module in my comm to see it ?? Yes if im using a trode net?? No if im connecting my comm to cybereyes via trodes or datajack??

Cybereyes are equipped to handle raw data straight from the Matrix just like accessories are. It would look like this:

THE MATRIX! <-Wireless-> commlink <-Skinlink-> Cyber eyes <-DNI-> My Brain

"Skinlink" as I understand it doesn't just transmitt along the skin but can also tranmitt throughout the body using the same electrical field. That electrical field permeatea the body. Your Comm could use skinlink to transmitt directly to your cyber eyes.

Of course if you didn't want cyber eyes you could do this:

THE MATRIX! <--> commlink <--> Sim Module <--> Trodes (DNI) <--> My Brain

In this case you need the sim module because your brain can't understand what 01010101001010 means. The sim module turns it into thoughts. Those cybereyes from before and any set of glasses can understand raw data and turn it into something that your brain CAN understand, get it?
Trodes and a Sim Module are more Mage friendly

You could replace "THE MATRIX" with "MY TEAMMATE" or "MY SMARTGUN". It works the same way.

OK first the smartgun entry states that it connects to smartlink and CAN BE accessed wireless. Meaning it doesnt have to be.

Smartlink says it needs image link. Image link states that it usually gets this data via AR (comm+sim mod) but other input is allowed. What is this other input??

If my skinlinked comm can talk directly to my cybereyes then why cant my skinlinked gun do it?

Okay, sorry. Here:

THE MATRIX! <-skinlink-> commlink <-Skinlink-> Cyber eyes <-DNI-> My Brain
Works just fine that way too, you're right.

The Smartlink entry does say in passing that an image link is needed, but Pg. 209 states that any AR (AR period, no distinction) can be interpreted, experienced and manipulated all via Sim Sense. Using any sort of DNI (Datajack, Trodes, Simrig) and your handy-dandy Sim module you can have all the functionally of glasses, earbuds, etc. withonly those few things. Makes shopping easy . I do see where Smartlink supposedly needs Image Link (implying that an AR accessory is needed) but considering this exception is rather odd I would say a partial simsense feed would be adequate. Why would AR data from your smartgun be so different from other visual AR data that it can only be interpreted via peripherals? Doesn't make sense.

If you want your Smartgun to talk directly to your Cybereyes than have them subscribe to eachother. There is no reason that you can't. If cutting out the commlink in that communication chain is so vital than just do it. It's definetely possible.

Abbandon, i fear you simply don't understand what all those devices are. It's all really common sense from there on.

First a question (or three). If you have a kayboard and push a button, will there be any reaction on your screen if there's no computer between them ?
Or would it matter if you had connected your keyboard to your screen wirelessly, with a cable or per electrons traveling along your skin ?
How did you manage to plug your keyboard into your screen anyway ?


A Commlink is a COMPUTER. It has all the programs and drivers to handle information exchange between any of your devices, weither wireless, opticable or skinlink. Pretty much NOTHING will work without it.

A Sim Modul is an output device for your commlink. It translates computer data into something your brain can interpret as sense data - sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, emotions.
This is optional for VR, and mandatory for VR.


To connect either A Commlink or Commlink+Sim Module to your brain (=setting up a DIRECT NEURAL INTERFACE = DNI) you need either a DataJack or Trodes.

1) A Datajack (if you have one) is the central hub to your brain - it is connected directly to it (converting optical/electronic impulses to nerve signals) and (usually) connects to every piece of your cyberware, so all your 'wear can interchange information ... it simply works as a hub, channeling information.

2) A Trode NET is a, well, net ... of electrodes set around your head. They read your neural information by measuring the electromagnetical fields of your brain in several areas, which means it takes time to set them up correctly ... at least a few minutes, running check routines and going through resetting repeatedly. To write information into your brain, the electrodes have to generate pretty powerful electromagnetical fields to directly influence your nervous system ... even more important to set this up correctly if you don't want to be brainfried.
Prior to SR4, Trodes were not advanced enough to send more than low entertainment level simsense info to your brain without totally frying it.

3) If you don't want SIMSENSE you can still send
- sight (to an Image Link in your Cybereyes via trodes or datajack, an Image Link in your contact lenses/glasses/goggles, or to any Trideo Display connected to your commlink for that matter),
- sound (Sound Link in Cyberears via Trodes/Datajack, Sound Link in headphones, or to some speakers connected to your Commlink)
- touch (Touch Link via Trodes/Datajack or a ineteractive bodysuit),
- and even taste and smell if you have the right kind of cyberwear/gear.


Now the HOW to connect. Obviously you could use a cabel (optical cable), or if you don't need the range, an induction pad .... of course both would be so ... 50s. In the 70s, you either send the information via radio signals (a.k.a. WIRELESS) or as electric impulses using the bodies' own EM field as carriers (a.k.a. SKINLINK). None of these do anything by themselves, they are just .... hell, they are CABLES.


Anything you want to project into your brain has to come from somewhere, of course. This might be a gun's Smartlink, the Matrix, a Chip(-reader) ... whatever. This information has to go to your Commlink to be interpreted, and then send to your brain (or your senses). It really does not matter what kind of device, and how it is connected, it's always Device -> Commlink (+Sim Module) -> Brain.
(for external devices, of course. Your cyberware always has a direct connection to your brain, but to intereact with any other cyberwear or your commlink, you need a Datajack - no, Trodes will not help with this.)



Now AR and VR. AR is your normal reality you walk around in everyday, only AUGMENTED by Matrix information (sights, sounds, sometimes even touch, smell, taste or emotions). To be effected by any such information you need a means to see/hear/touch/taste/smell/feel it - either a Sim Modul or the respective Cyberwear or Output Devices for the corresponding sense (Sight -> A Screen ...).
VR means your normal senses are totally overridden by simsense information. This allows you to interact with the data more directly and intuitively. The stronger the signal gets the more convincing it is to your brain - a low strength would only be noticed as faint, requiring much of your concentration to even notice it, while a full strength signal feels more intense than real life. VR can only be experienced via a Sim Modul connected via Trodes or Datajack.



Just get stuff cleared up, there's only five different categories :
- Computer
- Input Devices
- Output Devices
- Ways to connect that stuff
- Things to do with it.
If you even get those confused .......




Samaels Ghost : it's Matrix -> (whatever 'cable') -> commlink -> (whatever 'cable') -> Cybereyes -> Brain only for visual information, of course ... You cannot carry any other sense information that way (or would you connect EYES to the TASTE centers of your brain ... 'That looks ... like a faint taste of curry. Yes.')




If I've lost anyone through this post, tell me where I've lost you ... but for the moment I hope this will finally clear up things.

Well yeah. I can't taste with my eyes... But you know that's not what I meant

I guess I did know.
I just wanted to get this whole mess cleaned up.
'Hope you can forgive me.

Of course. And what a mess indeed.

Abbandon, is English a second language to you? No offense meant, really. Not trying to be sarcastic or anthing. I just have a hard time understanding your posts sometimes. Is that why? I know some german speaking people post on the boards (SR's big in Germany from what I hear) and it woulndn't surprise me.

If I remember correctly though, sim modules are optional equipment. You wont be receiving as much information and it will be more like a HUD display but it also protects you against stun damage from IC, hackers, etc. Right?

You probably cant understand some of the things im saying because you cant see things from my prespective. The majority think a commlink is a holy grail that you have to have w/ sim module just to wipe your butt with your cyberarm.

page 311 for smartgun and 323 for image link both say you dont need a stupid commlink to use smart weapons. So why do i keep getting told that i do?

I give up. I was just trying to figure out the correct path to skinlink my guns to my eyeballs without using wireless connectivity.

As your cyberarm has a DNI connection itself, nobody needs a commlink with that.

Any comments about 'Wireless Link' in the book only mean that a device can be accessed without a cable, using radio waves - not more, not less.


To skinlink your gun to your cybereyes, it's simply
Gun (Skinlink) -> Cybereyes (Skinlink)
or Gun (Skinlink) -> Datajack (Skinlink) -> Cybereyes
or Gun (Skinlink) -> Commlink (Skinlink) -> Datajack (Skinlink) -> Cybereyes

for glasses/lenses it would be
Gun (Skinlink) -> Glasses (Skinlink)
or Gun (Skinlink) -> Commlink (Skinlink) -> Glasses (Skinlink)

Just add a Skinlink to both devices you want to communicate. Two Skinlinks replace one cable or WiFi connection. Just simple cableless cables.

something tells me that unwired better be a very big book, and written like a school book, with lots of examples...

The reasons to put your commlink in the loop with the smartgun and your contacts/cybereyes are as follows:

1) A smartgun wirelessed/skinlinked directly to contacts/cybereyes is unhackable, but since there's no attachment to your PAN, you cannot share information from your smartgun with your teammates. This information can include things like how your ammunition is doing (so you don't have to yell across the hallway that you're out of ammo... your teammates know already), but the most useful application of this is your ability to stick the smartgun around the corner and have it's camera share information with your crew. In addition to this, unless you've got the little picture-in-picture guncamera window already accessed, you have no way to turn it on and off without routing it through your commlink.

2) A smartgun wirelessed/skinlinked to your contacts/cybereyes loses most of it's cool high-speed functions (the quick magazine eject, the quick mode change, the quick choke adjustment, etc), because you no longer have a DNI connection to a device controlling the smartlink. While you do have DNI to your cybereyes, they are not a "hub" type device like your commlink... you cannot issue an order through your cybereyes to the smartgun to do things like fire (if someone else is holding it) or turn on the safety.

3) If you go down, but your body is located somewhere near the fight, a smartgun that's hooked to your commlink can be accessed by your teammates. This means that they could access it to order it to fire randomly (increasing the volume of fire being produced by your team) or, if you've got a cyberarm, they could access the arm to move the gun around, and access the cyberarm to use it's camera to aim, allowing them to essentially "rig" your downed body and possibly even defend yourself while unconcious.

No, you don't need the commlink just to get the +2 from the smartlink. It's pretty handy to have some sort of DNI connection (either through a datajack or a commlink) to the smartgun to access some of it's cooler functions, though.

Thats pretty lame interpretation. But lets pretend its that way. If you have the room or later when your upgrading ware you can just skinlink a jack or a implanted commlink. Poof you have your smartgun to DNI connection. I dont understand why there is so much resistance to not letting a samurai keep his weapons safe from stupid matrix attacks.

There isn't that much resistance. It's just that there is a trade off between two options. You can either stay connected and informed or turtle away and be unhackable. It a choice. The suggestions here do say you can keep that gun of yours safe, but they also warns that being safe means some cool bonuses and connectivity are lost. From that point on it's a preference. Which way would you prefer? Fine, do it that way. It's possible.

So will a skinjack give me full control of my gun?? Wait didnt you guys say that cyberware alerady has skinlink built in... So i just need the jack and presto ??

How do you guys feel about burst or studder transmissions???

Like temporarily connecting things to a comm to beam info to your mates and then shutting it down again. burst trans.

Stagger transmissions are where you record something with your eyes into a device. Then you seperate your eyes from the device and then hook the device up to your coms and transmit?

What would those actions take, free simple complex?

Yes, a skinlinked cyberjack would give you full control of your gun. It *still* would not allow you to relay information from the gun camera out to your buddies on the PAN (because the datajack isn't a wireless hub), but you do gain the functionality of the sped-up controls and the ability to mentally control the gun camera (which you would have to subscribe to the cybereyes).

Essentially, you'd control it through the datajack, and view the output with the eyes. No commlink involved that way, and you gain some of the functionality back.

There's a reason I've seen some characters with old-school (SR3-) smartguns still. There's no way to hack something that's not connected to any other network.

Ok now lets review some things....

If you can do this:
skinlinked smartgun -> body --> skinlinked datajack -->cybereyes

Why cant you do this:
Skinlinked smartgun--> body --> skinlinked trode net -->cybereyes

A datajack doesnt have a sim module so why do you need one for the trode net to work? It wouldnt even need to be connected to a comm right? Do trodes ONLY transmit simsense data? I guess i could accept that.


Im wanting to explore the depths of hacker security so this doesnt have anything to do with the above.

Bob has a comm w/ sim mod and a trode net. Bob has all of his cyber's wi-fi turned OFF(eyes, ears, datajack) . Bob has a smartgun skinlinked to a skinjack. Now an enemy has successfully hacked Bob's Comm. What exactl does the enemy hacker have access to at this point?

Comm - trodes - cybereyes ?
Comm - trodes - cyber ears ?
Comm - trodes - jack ?
Comm - trodes - jack - smartgun ?

From the trodes to the cyberparts is DNI so does that provide a break in the flow as far as a hacker is concerned? I mean if a hacker has access to your trode net he couldnt make you stick out your tongue or punch yourself in the face with a meatbody arm right?

I think it's important to remember the mode of communication as well.

skinlinked smartgun --wireless--> body --wireless--> skinlinked datajack --wireless-->cybereyes--DNI--> Brain

is different then

Skinlinked smartgun--> body --> skinlinked trode net --<simsense>-->cybereyes -DNI-> Brain

Also keep in mind as you add more devices not all linkages are linear, but can take on different topographies, which in turn influence what a hacker can get at.