This may belong more to another thread, but I wasn't sure, so here you go!
I just picked up a copy of the old Cyberpunk 2020 game. I was wondering what those of you who are familiar with it/have played it think it might do better than Shadowrun? Worse?

CP is nice in that it applies the cyberpunk theme to more aspects of life, I think. In Shadowrun, your average wageslave will have a datajack and nothing more. In CP, he'll have a datajack, headware memory, cyber eyes, replacement arms and a Mr. Studd. That also means that the PCs can buy more diverse ware. In SR, 90% of the ware is dedicated to killing other people or interfacing with electronics, which is fairly limiting, all told. CP, as written, also tends to be more 'street level' to begin with.

That's the good stuff.

On the flip side, I have never heard of or seen an instance of a CP game which is not heavily house ruled. The rules as printed simply are not sufficient for much of what has to be done. The combat system is neat, but there's so much about the world that isn't written down, and is even contradictory between one canon text and the next, that it's really tough to know how things work. There's no metaplot to fall back on, basically. When I ran a game, one player got on my case because I let someone else have the Metal Gear armor and wear it in public. But there's nothing in the book that would indicate that would be a problem, especially in the barrens. Good luck finding how the equivalent of the SIN system works, or what security measures come standard on a car! It's very much a DIY system. It also suffers from extreme power creep, so the GM needs to know more about what to look for to curb abuses.

I played a few CP games, all turned out to be pretty deadly. The combat is really dangerous (thanks to hit location system) and long. One thing I really missed was the magic of SR. You know, spellslingers, elves, dwarves, all that. CP felt boring for me. But I enjoyed reading the chromebooks

I strongly advice you re-read both the basic rulesbook and the archetype books. You clearly skimmed them without properly reading them.

Strange as it may sound, I'm not especially interested in doing a "thorough reading" of a book I've already read twice so I can help you prove your point

Regardless, if I looked and couldn't find it, that indicates the book is either incomplete or poorly laid out. You can take your choice.

Point is, if it requires further research and an index isn't helpful, it's poorly laid out.

Granted, most RPG sourcebooks fall under "poorly laid out", so... YMMV

Idolon, it's quite simple:

Most of the SR-groups I have played with (often on conventions) could just as well play AD&D, substituting automatic weapons for bows and swords.

ObtW: I give a rat's piss about spelling as long as persons get the meaning. And that they did obviously.

And most of the Vampire groups I've been with have been all about the necrophilia and Hot Lesbian Vampire Secks, instead of about, oh, y'know, the game.

I'm sure there are Vampire groups out there that aren't like what I've encountered. Doesn't mean I am going to say nobody can properly GM a Vampire game because of such situations.

Painting with a broad brush will, generally, just get you laughed at, not listened to.

So in regards to the original question, one of the only things CP2020 does "better" out of the gate than SR is its wider array of cyber for "the common folk", and possibly the combat system (if you like crunchier stuff).

A lot of groups that I've gamed with would've been a much, much better wording of the statement.

All is a terrible all-or-nothing statement that is what makes people form ignorant opinions about things.

Boy, this thread totally makes me want to play Cyberpunk!

Well, so far it certainly sounds as if it lacked much of Shadowrun's published depth, in the form of rules to cover every situation or just plain background. Not having played it myself, and only owning the corebook, I'd say I'm better off sticking with Shadowrun and just using some ideas from CP2020 (such as cyberpsychosis) where I find them.

I'm done responding to the obvious trollbait.

Birdy, when you get your head out of your ass, let us all know.

Well. That degenerated quickly.

Yes, it did. At least a few posts helped me out.

Another thought on CP. I say if you can get stuff for it cheap, do it. (I know the OP has it already, I just mean in general.) Even if you never play it and don't like it, it's a great source of info and ideas. My motto is "if it's cheap as hell, buy it" because you never know when you'll run a game that some random In Nomine (or whatever) book will add major cool points to, you know?

Yep. Most con games I played were horrible.

I used to play CP2020 exclusively, thinking that ShadowRun was just a bad hack at mashing D&D and CP2020 together. I at the time I had every book ever written for CP, and all the mags, etc. I was hard core into it. Then a good friend of mine (now he is one of my best friends), introduced me to SR (not here is the game, blah blah blah), he got me into it by helping me tweak a character that I really wanted to play. He was no min/maxed to the extreme but he was diffinately onesided character. He was a decker, err I mean hacker in the new world.... He sucked at just about everything but hacking. But he was darn good at that.


Looking back at CP2020, it is good system. BUT there is only one or two ways to solve any problem/situation. Where as with SR, you have many more options due to Magic, Adepts (Magical, PhysAd, GunSlinger,etc), TechnoManchers, etc. The wider the spread of the party in "archtypes" (I dont like using that term) the more options to solve the problem/situation.


back at GenCon Indy this year, we where playing SR3 (that is the game that everyone at the table knew - I was the only one that had ever played SR4 before the con). We as a group got in a situation that we needed to get out of. The FACE did her "magic" but trying to talk our way out of it. The Gator Shaman was casting spells to help. The Rigger was moving his armored/armed boat around to give "support" (and was very minicing). I on the other hand, pulled out a kilo of C12 with a detonator already in it, saying "....I can take care of this one and for all....." Between the HMGs on the boat, the Sammies with various ARs (AK98s for the most part), the Gator Shamon doing some magic, an inbred cajun hick talking about blowing stuff up (and the various C12 kilos were seen by many), helped the FACE talk our way out of the situation. I think what gave the face extra points in her favor was after I started pulling C12 out, saying I was going to start blowing stuff up... she looked at me and said "... Bubba Joe Earl, I told you that you can not blow anything else up today.... you have to wait until tomorrow.... so put your explosives away...." with my response "... ahh mari sue.. I just want to blow up a few more things today...." Ok, maybe I slide off topic for a minute there..

After the SR world and system was full explained to me and show the good, the bad and the ugly, I have not gone back to CP2020. All my CP2020 books are on the shelf collecting dust. If I ever wanted to play a SR-type game with no magic, I would go straight to CP2002.

hopefully I answered your question somewhere in my ramblings...

dog

Interesting post, and thanks for the reply

CP2020 managed to hold a really hard cyberpunk edge that I just couldn't maintain with SR. Maybe it was the hit-location, shock/stun based combat, maybe it was the cyberpsychosis, rather than essence, maybe it was the cyber-heavy/full-borg world, maybe it was the 13-year-old mallrats with the one-shot 13mm APFSDS in their purses right next to their lipstick being kissed on the head by their parents before they go to school, but there's a violent, urban intensity to CP2020 that never felt quite there for me in SR.

Maybe running my next string of games in Hong Kong (rather than Seattle, which I live in and know well) will shift that, but as much fun as I have running SR, CP's always felt like a harder-edged game.

I think it comes down to magic, really. As much as Shadowrun can have that gritty edge to it -- just check out my fiction, you'll see how I like my SR -- it always feels like you almost have to push magic to one side a little bit, to get that same street-level feel.

Magic can and should be just one more thing "not quite right" about the dystopian future. It's supposed to be one more thing seperating the haves from the have nots, one more thing The Man uses to keep people down. One more thing the Talented few use to live an easy life while the masses starve underneath their Italian leather shoes.

Instead...it just...doesn't. For some reason. In some way. Maybe it's healing magic. If they got rid of Treat and Heal, maybe I wouldn't feel like it wrecked the grittiness so much. Maybe if you couldn't just cast a spell (and get a little headache from it) to close up that sucking chest wound, magic wouldn't bug me like it does.

I, if I were to GM another game, would severely nerf magic. Heal and Treat would both have drain codes so high that a sponge the size of New Glarus could'nt soak the drain, and mind control would be a huge PITA, and/or a plot device only.

Of course, the "bad guys" would have even less magic. Wizards would be rare, and they'd pop up in unusual situations; those with a good amount of power would generally keep to themselves. Think more along the lines of the Houngan in Count Zero; they're powerful, but they aren't exactly heading security teams.

There is an important thing one must remember about all modern, or near-modern, RPGs of at least slight realism: You can die easily from having a big weight dropped on you. A sword or HMG is not necessary to defeat a bulletproof opponent-just squish him, or use halon to suffocate him.

I remember listening to a guy who played Werewolf. He went into a long description of how the BBEG had a magic cold-iron armband of regeneration which made him nearly invincible.

My solution?

1. Steal huey.
2. Steal electromagnet from scrapyard crane, and a portable turbine generator.
3. Drive BBEG to a frenzy with harmless damage. Preferably, do so with aluminum weaponry, and in the nude.
4. Run. Lead BBEG under electromagnet.
5. Fire up electromagnet.
6. Watch BBEG hang in mid-air.
7. Drop him into a foundry.
8. Profit.



You can efficiently defeat most opponents by renting a Huey and dropping a three-ton granite block on them. If it does'nt kill them, it'll sure as heck keep 'em from moving. No matter how big your guns are, a chopper pilot is always deadlier.
Anything that cannot be defeated with a 3-tn granite block is best reasoned with or avoided.

Hardy, har, har.

Kagetenshi, because vernacular and slang don't exist.

Ah thankee-sai. Perhaps in your country, slang only has one possible meaning.

I have learned much, master.

Slang has many meanings! For example, "chopper" also means false teeth, a member of lambda chi alpha, and a particular kind of switch. "Helo" pretty much just means helicopter, though, at least in terms of slang.

~J

Just a quick warning, avoid CP 2030 like the plauge. Poopy doesn't even begin to describe it.

The only think that really bugged me was that it is the third CP game to have a woman President of the US (eqv.) with essentially the same background.

pthbbbt

I remember being told by an angry Lieutenant once to "Get in the goddamn deathtrap already" when we were taking to long to board a CH-46.

Does that count?

Yeah, that's why I was wondering if it was regional, because I used to talk to a few crew chiefs from Wheeler AAF when I was stationed in HI, and I never heard helo from them. Actually, I heard "bird" more than anything.