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Synner
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 5 2006, 12:05 AM)
You know the best part, I can SO see Sigh-on-an-Artic-Wind visualized as Dame Judy Dench. After all, she's already played an Air Elemental before. Just use an image of her from Chronicles of Riddick.

Funny that. Dame Dench was the first thing that came to mind when I first read Jay's material too.

We got lucky because Jay's "cosmic" approach to the metaplanes and astral quests (and several other things in this chapter) fit in perfectly with the changes the development guidelines had mapped out. Demonseed came up with quite a few surprises and twists on ideas we bounced off one another. It's definitely one of my favorite chapters with loads of information and a little bit of something for everyone.
stevebugge
QUOTE (stevebugge)
4 new spirits + the Conjuring vs. Possession Dynamic significantly increases the total number of potential traditions.

Before the 4 new spirit types there were a total of 2160 possible tradition combinations (by my calculation anyway) of which two had been named. I'm working on updating my tables now.
Synner
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Aug 5 2006, 12:34 AM)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Aug 3 2006, 09:28 AM)
4 new spirits + the Conjuring vs. Possession Dynamic significantly increases the total number of potential traditions.

Before the 4 new spirit types there were a total of 2160 possible tradition combinations (by my calculation anyway) of which two had been named. I'm working on updating my tables now.

Note that two traditions could potentially share the exact same spiritual correspondences and have completely different paradigms, tropes and beliefs...
Kesh
QUOTE (Cynic project)
QUOTE (Kesh @ Aug 3 2006, 08:32 PM)
Seriously, as long as it's a playable option for PCs (unlike in 3e), I'll be happy.

Psionic tradition rules.Use logic and willpower for drain. You use task ( manp) ,gaurdien(health) ,man (illusion), beast (combat), and guidance(detection) spirits. Your spirits look like bla bla what ever you think psionic spirits should look like.

There psionic tradition.

Throw is some rules about how you don't like magic so other tradition don't work wel with you groups and rituels and you have you character. Really, that wasn't that big of a deal no was it?

*watches the point go whooshing over Cynic's head* wink.gif

I've already made up a psionics/psychic tradition myself. I just want to see a core version that's actually playable.

And, no, the 3e version wasn't. It was so badly crippled as to be useless on most runs.
Brahm
That substitution of Possession for Materialization for some Traditions definately adds an additional factor to the number of distinct permutations. If there are any more like that buried in that substantially longer than MitS's Spirit Powers section it could really drive up the number of distinct permunations.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Aug 5 2006, 12:34 AM)
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Aug 3 2006, 09:28 AM)
4 new spirits + the Conjuring vs. Possession Dynamic significantly increases the total number of potential traditions.

Before the 4 new spirit types there were a total of 2160 possible tradition combinations (by my calculation anyway) of which two had been named. I'm working on updating my tables now.

Note that two traditions could potentially share the exact same spiritual correspondences and have completely different paradigms, tropes and beliefs...

Very true the original calculation & table involved the assumption that every combination of Spirit & Spell Types were unique to a Single Tradition, and the calculation was done prior to the determination of Manifestation or Possession.

If you allow for overlapping combinations with different belief structures then there really is no limit to the combinations available.
Zen Shooter01
stevebugge:

Am I, ah, to understand that, um, this is the kind of thing you do in your spare time?

In that case I have a request - can you calculate how many possible combinations of cyber and bioware implants there are?
stevebugge
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
stevebugge:

Am I, ah, to understand that, um, this is the kind of thing you do in your spare time?

In that case I have a request - can you calculate how many possible combinations of cyber and bioware implants there are?

Only when really bored or curious grinbig.gif

The Cyber & Bio Combos would be much harder to do, given that there are more possible options and fewer fixed parameters.
SL James
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 4 2006, 07:05 PM)
You know the best part, I can SO see Sigh-on-an-Artic-Wind visualized as Dame Judy Dench. After all, she's already played an Air Elemental before. Just use an image of her from Chronicles of Riddick.

Hah! Not what I was thinking when I wrote it, but now I can totally see it too.

It comes with the territory of having a scary good visual memory. Crit found that out when I proofed his submission to tisoz's contest and found movie references he didn't even realize he put in the piece.
knasser
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Aug 4 2006, 06:01 PM)
EDIT: And what, you've never seen a flying whale before?  grinbig.gif


Well my sister did a parachute jump once. It was technically not the same but yet... nyahnyah.gif

Anyway - my character idea has now progressed. Not only does he create physical illusions of small flying whales, he also summons his watchers in that form so that you never know if there might be some "real" ones in there. I'm also contemplating a puppy-sized one as an ally spirit. He's going to be called Wally and will waggle his flippers when you pet him. It will be so cute!

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 4 2006, 04:28 PM)
Maybe I've just been out of Shadowrun for a while, but it looks like their ramping up the fantasy level of magic. Reading about the metaplanes just seems more... cosmic... than it used to.

I wrote the Astral Space and the Metaplanes chapter. So if the metaplanes seem more cosmic, I'll admit it's deliberate. That's how I've always played them. I've never been a fan of the "roll on a random table and let's see what your mystical encounter is." The things a magician experiences in the Metaplanes should shake him to the very foundation of his soul. devil.gif

This explains why many magicians are "out there", either smug because they think they deal in things more significant than everything else or wise because they know there's a bigger world out there. But then the Sixth World always has a way of bringing them back down to Earth, especially when everyone they go up against tries to geek them first. wink.gif


I think I'll have to play this down in my game. This isn't a criticism of the writing which is fine, but we have a different take on the setting to each other. I think you can get away with the cosmic in a game like Mage where everyone is involved in magic, but in a game with samurai and hackers et al., it both takes away from other players' significance ("I'm involved in theinterdimensional politics of immortals, what are your hobbies?"), but it also lifts some of the dark claustraphobia of the game by creating all these vast other worlds that aren't run by megacorps. I guess it also shifts the balance in favour of magic over technology. I.e. the equivalent tech angle to this stuff would be interplanetary travel and alien races. It's the same level. In my game, I like tech vs. magic to be one of the themes, but no amount of deltaware is going to match a diplomatic meeting between spirits of the planes of Air and Water. It leaves you to question the relevance of our World in the grand scheme of things.

Don't take this the wrong way. As said, I like it and as you said, it's deliberate. It has its place and could easily fit in some games, but for my own, I can't allow magic to get too cosmic.
Ophis
QUOTE (knasser)
It leaves you to question the relevance of our World in the grand scheme of things.

So we replace claustrophobia with agrophobia, that i like. We are tiny insignificant speck in a greater world...
Synner
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 5 2006, 08:47 AM)
I think I'll have to play this down in my game. This isn't a criticism of the writing which is fine, but we have a different take on the setting to each other. I think you can get away with the cosmic in a game like Mage where everyone is involved in magic, but in a game with samurai and hackers et al., it both takes away from other players' significance ("I'm involved in theinterdimensional politics of immortals, what are your hobbies?"), but it also lifts some of the dark claustraphobia of the game by creating all these vast other worlds that aren't run by megacorps.

Or you could think of it as escapism instead and fleeting escapism at that, since it is transitory and illusory. Quests to the metaplanes are themselves metaphors influenced by a magician's own beliefs and perceptions so the reality of the experience is always questionable... appropriate given traditions like vision quests. The quester should be aware at some level that he is directly influencing what he is percieving.

A magician who get's too involved in the metaplanes he percieves loses contact with his true reality and might never be coming back (ODs on metaplanar coke.)

There's also the fact that while you can briefly touch these other "worlds" it's a transitory experience you can never really become involved (ie. you're never going back to meet the Architect in Harlequin's Back). They're just out of reach and there's no guarantee you're going to find the same place again. Also, the way the metaplanes work means that you can only really go there for a limited time and even then its dangerous and risky venture. There's also the fact that you are alone... all of these are elements can be used to make them yet another element that is beyond a character's control to make him feel like a small and insignificant cog in much bigger wheel... Just another element of opression.
Demonseed Elite
The Metaplanes, no matter how cosmic they may be, are never the central point of Shadowrun. The Earth is still where the action is, with all its ugliness and flaws. Journeys to the Metaplanes are never easy to undertake and the obstacles a magician faces in the Metaplanes are more substantial and more difficult than older editions of SR where sometimes all you had to do was make a successful skill test. Magicians just don't hop around the mystical cosmos in SR like they often do in Mage. They only go when they have a damn good reason.

And like Synner mentioned, any magician who starts to put more stock in the Metaplanes than on the physical world starts to share many similarities with the chiphead who spends more time in his recorded sim fantasy instead of the real world.

QUOTE
It leaves you to question the relevance of our World in the grand scheme of things.


The Earth is still ultimately significant. After all, one has to ask themselves why, if there are so many metaplanes out there, why do nasty things like insect spirits and shedim come to our physical world?
Critias
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
The Earth is still ultimately significant. After all, one has to ask themselves why, if there are so many metaplanes out there, why do nasty things like insect spirits and shedim come to our physical world?

Prob'ly the same reason we humans -- with all the rest of the world stretched out there before us -- sometimes swing by a nice, cheap, Chinese buffet from time to time?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Magicians just don't hop around the mystical cosmos in SR like they often do in Mage. They only go when they have a damn good reason.

Uh... given the Avatar Storm, Mages are actually less likely trying to cross the Gauntlet... Sleepers, on the other Hand, would be pretty safe, yet clueless. wink.gif
Demonseed Elite
You have me there, I played Mage before the Avatar Storm, back when Dante & Co. would casually hang out in Horizon.
Brahm
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 5 2006, 03:47 AM)
I.e. the equivalent tech angle to this stuff would be interplanetary travel and alien races.

I think the Matrix is a closer match. Besides interplanetary travel is in SR, it's just pretty rare and only involves one particular planet.

The Matrix has definately openned up some this time around. But there is still an exclusive club there, and it is one that not even the most dedicated mundane can join. Resonance Realms. However these are right now even less detailed than the old "roll on a chart" metaplanes.

I'm kinda torn here. Like DE, I too find the old "roll on a chart" completely unsatisfying. Like a random generated dungeon, but with less flavour. dead.gif

But I also feel what I think is roughly knasser's point (or maybe he's talking about something else). As transitory and illustory as it might be, it does still tend to bust up the flow of the team (unity of the player) to have a subset of PCs off on their own with no meaningful way for the others to follow. Even Astral Projection (as opposed to Astral Perception) by itself has this effect.

EDIT Incidentally this happened to our group just last week. A mage initiated, or picked up a Mentor Spirit or something. Not entirely certain. But mostly it carved a big chunk out of the game time and felt like everyone else was on the outside and the windows were mirrored so we couldn't even really look in. Even though the whole session was things like this for different members of the group, it felt more like this for me for the mage's chunk than for any of the other PCs.

That's the major reason IMO why the Matrix 2.0 is superior to the Matrix from a game playing POV. Astral and the metaplanes don't even have a readily accessable Hitcher Jack, much less allow active participation by all mundanes & Awakened alike like the Matrix does now [outside of Realms].
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Brahm)
But I also feel what I think is roughly knasser's point (or maybe he's talking about something else). As transitory and illustory as it might be, it does still tend to at the table bust up the flow of the team (unity of the player) to have a subset of PCs off on their own with no meaningful way for the others to follow. Even Astral Projection (as opposed to Astral Perception) by itself has this effect.

There is more on this particular topic in Street Magic. I just can't talk about it yet!
Brahm
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Aug 5 2006, 07:51 AM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 5 2006, 07:46 AM)
But I also feel what I think is roughly knasser's point (or maybe he's talking about something else). As transitory and illustory as it might be, it does still tend to at the table bust up the flow of the team (unity of the player) to have a subset of PCs off on their own with no meaningful way for the others to follow.  Even Astral Projection (as opposed to Astral Perception) by itself has this effect.

There is more on this particular topic in Street Magic. I just can't talk about it yet!

Sure you can. Cast off those oppressive and transitory legal, financial, and employment bonds and taste sweet freedom! grinbig.gif
Demonseed Elite
Nice try. wink.gif
Synner
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 5 2006, 07:46 AM)
But I also feel what I think is roughly knasser's point (or maybe he's talking about something else). As transitory and illustory as it might be, it does still tend to at the table bust up the flow of the team (unity of the player) to have a subset of PCs off on their own with no meaningful way for the others to follow.  Even Astral Projection (as opposed to Astral Perception) by itself has this effect.

There is more on this particular topic in Street Magic. I just can't talk about it yet!

Yup, this was something we definitely wanted to address, and I think the way it ended up will satisfy anyone who's faced this particular problem.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Kesh)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Aug 4 2006, 12:27 AM)
QUOTE (Kesh @ Aug 3 2006, 08:32 PM)
Seriously, as long as it's a playable option for PCs (unlike in 3e), I'll be happy.

Psionic tradition rules.Use logic and willpower for drain. You use task ( manp) ,gaurdien(health) ,man (illusion), beast (combat), and guidance(detection) spirits. Your spirits look like bla bla what ever you think psionic spirits should look like.

There psionic tradition.

Throw is some rules about how you don't like magic so other tradition don't work wel with you groups and rituels and you have you character. Really, that wasn't that big of a deal no was it?

*watches the point go whooshing over Cynic's head* wink.gif

I've already made up a psionics/psychic tradition myself. I just want to see a core version that's actually playable.

And, no, the 3e version wasn't. It was so badly crippled as to be useless on most runs.

And i want to see a core rule for playable jedi! Or I want to have playable super heroes or i want them to right up rules for scientolagy magi. Maybe they will add in the followers of Elvis?Or something. traditions do not need offical wright ups anymore. you pick one of three ays you deal with drain, you pick five out of ten spirit types, you set up what sort of spell these spirit help you with and lastly these spirits either cause you to kick ass or kick ass away form you.

honestly I do not think you could even define what a psion is, cause guess what it used to mean many different things. They range from, people who can read mind, people who can fly and do superman crap,to people who can die if you look at them the wrong way. no one can tell me what spirit types they would use, or what type of spells thy would go with.Hell you couldn't even tell me what the spirits would look like.

So tell me, why the we really need psionics in the game? Do you really think there are more than 1,000 people alive who are magically active an go, you know what. I do not believe in magic. No, I don't.I have all the proof in the world, but that doesn't mean shit cause I don't believe in magic.
phasmaphobic
Apparently, according to the ToC, a weakness to the band Evanescence is an extraplanar menace.

Ba-dum-dumching!

EDIT:

I wonder if my original ideas on reverse-engineering the spell formulae prove to be close to the mark, too.
Synner
QUOTE (phasmaphobic @ Aug 5 2006, 06:42 PM)
Apparently, according to the ToC, a weakness to the band Evanescence is an extraplanar menace.

Ba-dum-dumching!

I knew we were going to get grief because of that particular choice. If you find you don't like the term, I suggest replacing it with "Dissipation" which was our alternate choice.

[edited for grammar]
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (Synner)
I knew we were going to get grief because of that particular choice. If you find you don't like the term, I suggest they replace it with "Dissipation" which was our alternate choice.

So
Come up to the Lab
And see what's on the slab
I see you shiver with Dissi... pation!

Hahah, no problems with the name, I'm just having fun =)
Samaels Ghost
I'm looking forward to sinking my players into another plane. Err, an official way. Being as I'm such a fan of Silent Hill, my players might be in trouble if Astral Gate does what I think it does.
SL James
Are there snakes in that plane?
Samaels Ghost
That was awesome. Thanks for the laugh biggrin.gif
SL James
I aim to tease.
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 5 2006, 01:59 PM)
I aim to tease.

I aim to hit them muthafuckin snakes right between the eyes.
SL James
QUOTE (phasmaphobic)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 5 2006, 01:59 PM)
I aim to tease.

I aim to hit them muthafuckin' snakes right between the muthafuckin'eyes!

Fixed.
phasmaphobic
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (phasmaphobic @ Aug 5 2006, 04:04 PM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 5 2006, 01:59 PM)
I aim to tease.

I aim to hit them muthafuckin' snakes right between the muthafuckin'eyes!

Fixed.

Hahahahah, coffee-spitting roffles all around =)
SL James
Note to Adam: We'll get back on-topic... On Monday.
Adam
smile.gif
emo samurai
QUOTE (SL James)
Note to Adam: We'll get back on-topic... On Monday.

You seem almost... happy. I'm scared; something bad is going to happen that only you know of. That's the only explanation possible.
Kesh
QUOTE (Cynic project)
QUOTE (Kesh @ Aug 4 2006, 07:40 PM)

*watches the point go whooshing over Cynic's head* wink.gif

I've already made up a psionics/psychic tradition myself. I just want to see a core version that's actually playable.

And, no, the 3e version wasn't. It was so badly crippled as to be useless on most runs.

And i want to see a core rule for playable jedi! Or I want to have playable super heroes or i want them to right up rules for scientolagy magi. Maybe they will add in the followers of Elvis?Or something. traditions do not need offical wright ups anymore. you pick one of three ays you deal with drain, you pick five out of ten spirit types, you set up what sort of spell these spirit help you with and lastly these spirits either cause you to kick ass or kick ass away form you.

ohplease.gif The snark really doesn't actually do anything to help your opinion, y'know.

QUOTE
honestly I do not think you could even define what a psion is, cause guess what it used to mean many different things. They range from, people who can read mind, people who can fly and do superman crap,to people who can die if you look at them the wrong way. no one can tell me what spirit types they would use, or what type of spells thy would go with.Hell you couldn't even tell me what the spirits would look like.


Have you ever read any of the Grimoires for earlier editions? While rules-wise they were crippled, they pretty well covered the flavor: people who believe they are using the power of their mind to influence reality around them. Not dependent on arcane formulae, mentor spirits, hedge-magical rituals... just their internalized willpower controlling the flow of mana. The believe that spirits are just manifestations of human emotion & desire, the metaplanes a reflection of our own psyches.

And the nasty things out there? Ever watched Forbidden Planet? wink.gif

QUOTE
So tell me, why the we really need psionics in the game? Do you really think there are more than 1,000 people alive who are magically active an go, you know what. I do not believe in magic. No, I don't.I have all the proof in the world, but that doesn't mean shit cause I don't believe in magic.


Psionics does not mean "I don't believe in magic." It's "I believe magic works by focusing mana through my own mental willpower alone." You're reading your own personal biases into the tradition and getting rather carried away with them.
hobgoblin
QUOTE
"I believe magic works by focusing mana through my own mental willpower alone."


hmm, that kinda describe the basis for chaos magic allso...
stevebugge
QUOTE (stevebugge)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Aug 4 2006, 05:16 PM)
stevebugge:

Am I, ah, to understand that, um, this is the kind of thing you do in your spare time?

In that case I have a request - can you calculate how many possible combinations of cyber and bioware implants there are?

Only when really bored or curious grinbig.gif

The Cyber & Bio Combos would be much harder to do, given that there are more possible options and fewer fixed parameters.

So to follow up on this (because I know you all want to know grinbig.gif ).

30540 Possible unique combinations of Spirit and Spell Categories.

3 different Mental Attributes (Logic, Intuition, Charisma) to pair with will power for Drain.

2 different Spirit Presence Mechanics (Manifestation or Possession)

For a total of 183240 Unique Tradition Mechanics.

I really have too much time on my hands.

Eventually I'll post an Excel Sheet with all these permutations.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Kesh)
Psionics does not mean "I don't believe in magic." It's "I believe magic works by focusing mana through my own mental willpower alone." You're reading your own personal biases into the tradition and getting rather carried away with them.

No, it in fact *does* mean exactly that. Psionics, as defined in sci-fi, is extremely egocentric. It's the idea that power is being projected from the person and into the environment, specifically denying the need for some sort of aether or mana as the source of power. This is why Jedi are in fact not psions: they do not generate the power for their abilities themselves but in fact channel or direct an external "Force" to do their bidding--or allow that Force to direct them, as is the case for divinations and certain other Jedi tricks.

Now carry this over to SR. The psionic tradition has a fundamental difference with that of "regular" magic. See, most mages believe in an external mana; they aren't generating the effects under their own power, but rather using their minds to direct the power to do their will. Psions differ from this with the egocentric view that they are in fact generating the effects internally. They do not believe that the power exists outside of themselves, but that they are the source of the power. According to canon this is what inherently limits what they can accomplish, not its trappings, which aren't all that different from Chaos magic or Renewed Hermeticism, or Wicca for that matter.

At least that's how I see it.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (stevebugge @ Aug 4 2006, 05:19 PM)
For a total of 183240 Unique Tradition Mechanics.

Well, back in my SR1 days, we had 2 tradition mechanics, dangnabit! We had variable staging on our drain codes. Hermetics didn't have any of these newfangled "elementals of the mind" and if you were a shaman you had to summon your nature spirits at sunup and sundown, uphill both ways, through 8 foot drifts of Seattle acid snow. That's the way it was and we liked it, dadgummit!

I had an onion for an expendable fetish.

It was tied to my belt.

Because that was the style at the time.

dead.gif
SL James
The Simpsons reference is a nice touch.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (SL James)
The Simpsons reference is a nice touch.

Yeah, Dana Carvey's old "Grumpy Old Man" routine just fades so seamlessly into Abe Simpson I couldn't pass it up.

And the fun thing about those 183240 traditions, is that you always have the choce to hold some magic points back to spend on adept powers to become a mystic adept. Being an Adept of the Magician's Way is different enough from the base practice that it builds upon to be almost be able to count as a sub-tradition all its own. It's almost like having 366480 traditions to choose from.
Casper
QUOTE (Synner)
A magician who get's too involved in the metaplanes he percieves loses contact with his true reality and might never be coming back (ODs on metaplanar coke.)


Or I would rather say drinks the Metaplanar Kool-Aid. biggrin.gif
Ophis
I was thinking more "Four Yorkshiremen" when I read that.
knasser
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 5 2006, 06:04 AM)
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 5 2006, 08:47 AM)
I think I'll have to play this down in my game. This isn't a criticism of the writing which is fine, but we have a different take on the setting to each other. I think you can get away with the cosmic in a game like Mage where everyone is involved in magic, but in a game with samurai and hackers et al., it both takes away from other players' significance ("I'm involved in theinterdimensional politics of immortals, what are your hobbies?"), but it also lifts some of the dark claustraphobia of the game by creating all these vast other worlds that aren't run by megacorps.

Quests to the metaplanes are themselves metaphors influenced by a magician's own beliefs and perceptions so the reality of the experience is always questionable... appropriate given traditions like vision quests. The quester should be aware at some level that he is directly influencing what he is percieving.


Well that's fine by me. As I stated, I need the "real" World to be the centre of things, otherwise the non-magicians are going to be left feeling irrelevant. But it was the bit about diplomatic meetings between spirits of different realms that pushed me over the edge. Seemed too cosmic and independent of the real World for my setting.

But I wish to emphasize that this is personal taste and I like the section. I see the odd solo session for this stuff. And I now have a shaman with a Free Spirit in the form of a small flying whale. So I'm happy.

Do we have a fixed release date for the PDF, yet?
Brahm
QUOTE (knasser)
Do we have a fixed release date for the PDF, yet?

Soon!

I don't know if Adam is going to GenCon this year, but if he is then I personally expect, on an outside bet, that it is either up for sale on by this Wednesday or it'll be the second half of next week. Just judging from past experiences.

Either way: We'll get there when we get there! talker.gif
Zen Shooter01
You understand of course that "we get there when we get there" is an attitude of which, in the whole wide business world, only RPG companies and marijauna importers have the luxury?

Anyway, here is my sincere hope that, when I get home from my business trip next week, that the first core rulebook for 4th ed. - a mere twelve months after the edition hit shelves - will be available for purchase. love.gif
Grinder
QUOTE (emo samurai)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 5 2006, 06:57 PM)
Note to Adam: We'll get back on-topic... On Monday.

You seem almost... happy. I'm scared; something bad is going to happen that only you know of. That's the only explanation possible.

Ahw, such dark thoughts. Let them go away, young padawn. rotfl.gif
MYST1C
QUOTE (Ophis)
We are tiny insignificant speck in a greater world...

And now everybody together:

"Ia! Ia! Cthulhu ftaghn!"

(Repeat with increasing volume until the Tentacled One appears and devours your insignificant soul.)
Kesh
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
QUOTE (Kesh @ Aug 5 2006, 06:16 PM)
Psionics does not mean "I don't believe in magic." It's "I believe magic works by focusing mana through my own mental willpower alone." You're reading your own personal biases into the tradition and getting rather carried away with them.

No, it in fact *does* mean exactly that. Psionics, as defined in sci-fi, is extremely egocentric. It's the idea that power is being projected from the person and into the environment, specifically denying the need for some sort of aether or mana as the source of power. This is why Jedi are in fact not psions: they do not generate the power for their abilities themselves but in fact channel or direct an external "Force" to do their bidding--or allow that Force to direct them, as is the case for divinations and certain other Jedi tricks.

Now carry this over to SR. The psionic tradition has a fundamental difference with that of "regular" magic. See, most mages believe in an external mana; they aren't generating the effects under their own power, but rather using their minds to direct the power to do their will. Psions differ from this with the egocentric view that they are in fact generating the effects internally. They do not believe that the power exists outside of themselves, but that they are the source of the power. According to canon this is what inherently limits what they can accomplish, not its trappings, which aren't all that different from Chaos magic or Renewed Hermeticism, or Wicca for that matter.

At least that's how I see it.

I can see your point. But, most of the time when I've seen psionics/psychics, they still focus on manipulating the energies of the world around them. The source of their manipulation is internal, but they're still acting on external forces.

For an SR psion, they would be using their personal mana to interact with the mana of others, and the world around them. They may call it chi, ki, will, Tao, ether or life-essence instead, but the end effect is the same. Some psychics may consider what they're doing seperate from magic, but I figure most would see "magic" as just another form of psychic power, or vice-versa.
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