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emo samurai
Just so I have an idea how magic will work when Street Magic comes out. I'm impatient like that.
James McMurray
I believe the places that sell the new pdfs (rpgnow.net for example) also sell some of the older books in pdf form.
Kagetenshi
What "old rules"? If you mean MitS, DriveThruRPG has it.

~J
Asheron
I meant no offense. I love SR and don't mean to try and assume that anyone should take away from the paychecks of Wizkids, Fanpro or any of their writers or staff.

I always buy the sourcebooks and novels, new if I can, so the bookstores realize SR is supported. Recently I bought "Drops of Corruption" and "Aftershocks" at B and N, plunking down a combined 14$ for them. I make 8.50$ an hour working a dead-end job and I value my money highly. I hadn't realized that you could purchase these PDFs online. I suggested what I did because old rulebooks can be really hard to find.

I sincerely apologize for my thoughtlessness.
RunnerPaul
[Post deleted due to no longer being needed]
Asheron
Edited my previous post.
Fix-it
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Aug 7 2006, 03:30 AM)

With all that, you have the lack of tact to come here and recommend to another forum user to try to obtain those books without purchasing them? Talk about a slap-in-the-face to everyone who's ever drawn a paycheck for writing Shadowrun material.

the horribly Ironic part is that we're roleplaying thieves, and data theft and piracy is what happens all the time.

*shrug* what can you do, really?

discourage it yes, but it still happens.
Asheron
Only pirate ships laden with treasure...
Adam
Beyond discouraging it, you should encourage the purchase of legit books/ebooks.
RunnerPaul
Especially when, unlike some companies in this industry, Fanpro cuts you a price break on the PDF compared to the hardcopy.
eidolon
Several companies do that. Without specifics, your post is just needless shit-stirring.
hobgoblin
pdf have its advantages, and its disadvantages compared to a book.

the advantage is full text search, so that you can look stuff up even with a small or missing index.

disadvantage is that you need a device to read it, like a computer.

for me the disadvantage outweight the advantage as i like to read from something thats not hot, heavy and/or noisy.

now if those tech corps can get their fabled e-ink devices to market at an affordable price (about as cheap as a cheap mobile phone atleast), and said devices are able to read said pdfs without much trouble, im game for buying pdfs...
GoblynByte
QUOTE (Fix-it)
the horribly Ironic part is that we're roleplaying thieves, and data theft and piracy is what happens all the time.

*shrug* what can you do, really?

discourage it yes, but it still happens.

I hate to sound mean, but that's the silliest piece of reasoning I've ever heard in my life. We roleplay thieves? Yes, we do, but how about a little ethical sense? We also play people who shoot other people. What does that mean? You know what I used to do when I didn't have the money to buy it? I went without. It's not that difficult. If your income doesn't support your hobby you either find a new source of income or find a new hobby. And we're not talking about stealing to feed your family. We're talking about stealing a game.

I know what you meant and I agree that some people do think this. I know you weren't talking about yourself. But I also think its just as damaging to say "what can you do?" There is plenty we can do and it would start by not supporting it on sites like this. All due respect.

QUOTE
for me the disadvantage outweight the advantage as i like to read from something thats not hot, heavy and/or noisy.

Like my wife!? Badumtshhhhh! Thank you, I'll be here all week! wink.gif
Nidhogg
QUOTE (GoblynByte)
You know what I used to do when I didn't have the money to buy it? I went without.

But now we don't have to! I can't count the number of times downloading PDFs has saved me from buying a crapy roleplaying game system, and let me use the one chapter from a D&D expansion book that I like, without having to shill out $40-50 for an otherwise shitty product.
knasser
QUOTE (hobgoblin)

now if those tech corps can get their fabled e-ink devices to market at an affordable price (about as cheap as a cheap mobile phone atleast), and said devices are able to read said pdfs without much trouble, im game for buying pdfs...


Two words - patent monopoly. frown.gif

Cheap? I wont hold out much hope.
GoblynByte
QUOTE (Nidhogg)
QUOTE (GoblynByte @ Aug 7 2006, 06:54 AM)
You know what I used to do when I didn't have the money to buy it?  I went without.

But now we don't have to! I can't count the number of times downloading PDFs has saved me from buying a crapy roleplaying game system, and let me use the one chapter from a D&D expansion book that I like, without having to shill out $40-50 for an otherwise shitty product.

But you're still breaking the law and infringing on someone intellectual rights. Any way you spin it it's legally and (in my humble opinion) ethically wrong. I know there's a large group of people out there that take the "no harm no foul" aproach to copyright laws, but the fact of the matter is that they're far more a part of the problem than they are the solution.
hobgoblin
heh, should we bother to turn this into a debate about copyright laws?

while i agree that the creator needs protection, the way it is today have gone to far.

thing is that the books are highly unlikely to ever get a reprint as the world have moved on. they are at best in the interest of people like AH and collectors.

while the distribution systems have become faster so that one can ship any kind of copyrighted material around the globe and fill all available markets in an instant, the laws that protect said material have been stretched so far that a product is protected for maybe 60 years after the original creator have come out with a replacement.

the original intent was one similar to that of patents, a strictly limited monpoly for a set time to balance the good of the creator vs the good of the masses. these days the needle is in the red zone on the creator side.

and when you add to that the fact that any household have today what amounts to a printing press (the computer and a printer) the laws of copyright is showing their age. when it was a huge investment in time and money to print one copy of the work it was enforcable as the number of printing presses was limited. but with the xerox machine and later the computer, the laws have become mostly impossible to uphold unless you go "big brother"...
Mr. Unpronounceable
Anyway, street magic is out now (at least the .pdf download) so no reason to be impatient - go buy it!
GoblynByte
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
heh, should we bother to turn this into a debate about copyright laws?

while i agree that the creator needs protection, the way it is today have gone to far.

thing is that the books are highly unlikely to ever get a reprint as the world have moved on. they are at best in the interest of people like AH and collectors.

while the distribution systems have become faster so that one can ship any kind of copyrighted material around the globe and fill all available markets in an instant, the laws that protect said material have been stretched so far that a product is protected for maybe 60 years after the original creator have come out with a replacement.

the original intent was one similar to that of patents, a strictly limited monpoly for a set time to balance the good of the creator vs the good of the masses. these days the needle is in the red zone on the creator side.

and when you add to that the fact that any household have today what amounts to a printing press (the computer and a printer) the laws of copyright is showing their age. when it was a huge investment in time and money to print one copy of the work it was enforcable as the number of printing presses was limited. but with the xerox machine and later the computer, the laws have become mostly impossible to uphold unless you go "big brother"...

I agree there is a difference between what the laws are and what the laws should be. But I don't agree with the idea of "if I think the laws are stupid, and the laws cost me money, I'm going to just ignore them."

But developers of games, few of whom I know are independently wealthy, spend their valuable time developing these products. To obtain one without paying for it is a slap in their faces. They cannot continue to spend time on such products if the products don't make them money. Then we complain when new products are not forthcoming.

Remember how before the late 90's most game developers were essentially just guys working out of their basements? I slapped my forehead at many people when they cried after these companies began to fold and they had several illicit copies of products from said company sitting on their shelves at home. Hmmm...ever wonder why the advent of cheap reproduction technology came to a rise about the same time that every non-corporate owned gaming company went bankrupt in the late 90's? I'm not saying that one absolutely caused the other, but I'm sure it had something to do with it. It's simple math. I saw folks every day photocopying their friends gaming books and converting them to HTML formats. Now it seems the only games that can continue to live are those owned by corporations that can support their RPG lines with other, non-reproducable products. And the prices of these books coming out of such companies is through the roof.

Coincidence?

Now, I know the story is a bit different when you're dealing with out of print books. I agree the laws are a bit rediculous there. But, again, I've never been the type of person to just ignore the rules if they don't suit me. Color me nerdy.
Wounded Ronin
OK, copyright related ethical nuance for you to all ponder.

You'll all agree that if I own some RPG sourcebooks and none of my players do that if I run a game of said RPG it's okay for me to let them read through the sourcebooks so they can make their characters, understand the game, and so on.

But, what if I own the RPG sourcebooks and I'm running an online game for a bunch of players who don't own the books and don't know the system? If I were to email them a PDF of the main sourcebook so they could create their character for the purpose of playing in my game, would that be t3h unethical? If so, how would you distinguish that from the table-top GM letting people use the sourcebooks at his house, lending out his sourcebooks to a player, or making xeroxes of large portions of the rules and giving them to each player so that the players could work on their characters at home?
GoblynByte
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Aug 7 2006, 08:25 PM)
OK, copyright related ethical nuance for you to all ponder.

You'll all agree that if I own some RPG sourcebooks and none of my players do that if I run a game of said RPG it's okay for me to let them read through the sourcebooks so they can make their characters, understand the game, and so on.

But, what if I own the RPG sourcebooks and I'm running an online game for a bunch of players who don't own the books and don't know the system?  If I were to email them a PDF of the main sourcebook so they could create their character for the purpose of playing in my game, would that be t3h unethical?  If so, how would you distinguish that from the table-top GM letting people use the sourcebooks at his house, lending out his sourcebooks to a player, or making xeroxes of large portions of the rules and giving them to each player so that the players could work on their characters at home?

The way I would see it, with only one copy of the book there's limited ownership. The player would probably eventually get fed up with having to ask for your book (or you'd get fed up with asking him for it) and get his own. The minute you make any sort of copy, especially a digital one, there's no more control and nobody is paying. You suddenly have a circulating product that anyone with access to will no longer need to buy. With the internet that could potentially be hundreds, if not thousands of copies that would have sold. Imagine what the general price of hardcopy books would be these days if profits were higher resulting from thousands more copies being sold per title.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Standard Disclaimer: I AM NOT A LAWYER. I have regular dealings with a patent/copyright attorney, and I've asked this same question. However, check with your own attorney regarding matters of questional legal practice.
QUOTE

If I were to email them a PDF of the main sourcebook so they could create their character for the purpose of playing in my game, would that be t3h unethical?

Not only would it be unethical, it would also be illegal copyright violation. When you buy a PDF, you don't gain the right to distribute it.

The only ethical way to do that would be if you were to delete those portions from your PDF, then reintegrate them when they "returned" them to you. Mind you, unless you bought more than one PDF, you'd really only be able to pass them to one person at a time.

Even doing this (and assuming everybody was good about following "returning" files to you), if the PDF in question were DRM'd, you'd still be violating DMCA to do this. However, you'd at least be following the spirit of the copyright law. Further, depending upon the licensing terms used when you purchased the PDF, you may be in violation of your license to distribute it in this manner.

Practically speaking, the only appropriate ways to do this is to have all players buy their own copies OR have the GM handle character creation.
Dale
I'm not going to comment on anything illegal. But I will say this - Ethics don't mean a damn thing.
GoblynByte
QUOTE (Dale)
I'm not going to comment on anything illegal. But I will say this - Ethics don't mean a damn thing.

And we see why many things in this country are going to crap. Why don't you phone up the oil companies and tell them that. I'd say drive to their houses, but I doubt you'd be able to afford the gas. wink.gif
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (GoblynByte @ Aug 7 2006, 06:59 PM)
QUOTE (Dale @ Aug 7 2006, 09:34 PM)
I'm not going to comment on anything illegal. But I will say this - Ethics don't mean a damn thing.

And we see why many things in this country are going to crap. Why don't you phone up the oil companies and tell them that. I'd say drive to their houses, but I doubt you'd be able to afford the gas. wink.gif

I'm sick of hearing about how oil companies are to blame for high gas prices. You want to know who's responsible for high gas prices? When you drive to work tomorow morning, take a look at all the people who are driving those 8-15MPG SUVs on the freeway, BY THEMSELVES, to work. *Those* are the guys who are responsible, and there are a lot of them. Oil companies are only getting lucky by capitalizing off of those schmoes, and by being big investors in a very volatile commodity. Enron is a good example of corrupt business; Exxon is just an example of a lucky one.

Oil prices, which link to the larger problem of ecological footprint, is not solely, or even primarily, the problem of big oil companies. If noone bought oil, those companies couldn't charge such exhorbiant prices for it. It's a personal problem, but one that's hard to see as such because it's a problem for every single person on the planet. Go to this quiz and take it. Only when your footprint is below 4.5 can you start whinning about how oil prices are someone else's problem; until then it's yours too.

[/dehijack]

(Edit): While I'm on my soapbox, there are lots of easy ways to lower your footprint:
1) Buy a new dishwasher/refridgerator/washing machine.
2) Invest in solar panels on your roof, especially if your roof has lots of southern exposure. This is a big one; in 10-20 years if your house doesn't have solar it'll basically be a fixer-upper.
3) Eat salads with lunch and dinner.
4) Recycle.
5) Use public transit

Only the last one is even particularly painful, and all are positive steps.
eidolon
QUOTE (eyeless blond)
If noone bought oil, those companies couldn't charge such exhorbiant prices for it. It's a personal problem, but one that's hard to see as such because it's a problem for every single person on the planet.


Hahahahaahhaha! Next up, eyeless' perfect solution for how to move the world economy around without oil. Now that he's "proven" that oil companies have nothing to do with how expensive oil is, he's ready for anything, folks. Yup, no way do those giant oil companies and conglomerates and their fun-filled tycoons have anything to do with the situation. Nope. It's all you, random contractor that needs a pickup truck to haul his building materials and tools in.

Dude, be an eco-nut all you want, but until there's a better solution than "ethanol", we're stuck with gasoline. (And if you really think ethanol is anything more than one more short-term craze for investors to capitalize on, then I suggest you do some more research.) There's just no way you can adequately support a funhappy worldview in which the gouging oil companies aren't just another large part of the problem.
GoblynByte
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
I'm sick of hearing about how oil companies are to blame for high gas prices.

Everyone can drop out of their economics class right now. Here's the only rule you'll ever need to know of supply and demand:

"We have the supply so we can demand what ever the hell we want!"

Either way you slice it, Eyeless, you're still dealing with a question of ethics (which was the actual point of my statement). The consuming American is making an ethical choice (bad or good depending on if you're buying the gas or "fueling the American economy") to buy gas guzzling vehicles.

But, if you actually think that the oil companies are acting in an ethically beneficial way, you need to remove you're head from that dark place you've placed it. I never said they were completely at fault. I just said they were acting with poor social conscience. Ever wonder why they just reported "record earnings" this quarter? Certainly wasn't because we were buying more gas than usual.
Oracle
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Only when your footprint is below 4.5 can you start whinning about how oil prices are someone else's problem; until then it's yours too.

My footprint is 4.4. Only 0.2 points resulting from mobility. wink.gif
GoblynByte
Yeah, I got the first question on that quiz. When it asked me how many animals I eat I stopped. Apparently Eyeless is suggesting we all sit in our houses, with the lights off, staring at our walls, until we starve to death.

I'll refrain from pointing out that Eyeless made the post on a computer. Perhaps he has one of those new computers run on hamster power. Or would that be cruel to the hamster? biggrin.gif
Kagetenshi
If you eat humans, you should qualify for a major bonus on the quiz.

~J
Frag-o Delux
As for copyright laws, well I fudge the line sometimes, not going to lie or make excuses. But when it came to SR (up till SR4, and I know Im not the normal case) I bought at least 2 copies of each book. One for myself and one for the GM and group. I was tired of always wanting my books and the GM had them or the new guy had it and wanted to learn the game. Cant fault either, the GM needs them to run the game and cant discourage a new RPer. And yes I have had computers all my life, bootlegging scanned copies would have been pretty easy back in the late days of SR2 if they were out there. With SR4 I found a PDF of the BBB, not because I am now deciding to steal all books, but because I heard a bunch of different opinions and wanted to see for myself and as a "adult" I dont have $40 to lay out on a game I probably wont play. I read the rules, decided I didnt like it, then deleted the PDF. If it was a game I would have migrated to, I would have bought two copies like normal, one for me and one for my GM.

I do have a large bulk of SR2 and SR3 books in pdf, because I have been mashing them up and getting rid of stuff that doesnt need to be in them like some of the horrible art work and making indexes and searchable keywords to find what I want faster. Seeing that almost no SR book has an index. And I do not distibute them in anyway. They are for my own use, though I prefere the feel of a book when I read them, the PDFs are for my laptop when I go to the GMs house to play. I have the books for the rest of the players, I scan with my PDFs. I was also doing a large hisory mash also, like a giant web of things with all the revelavent history. And it would have all been just for me and my group. To me these forums, Ancients web site (but i think he has a deal with wikkids/fanpro) and tones other fan sites that I feel put way too much of the games content on the web for nothing. Like the Urban brawl rules someone was just asking for. When that book was out I wasnt going to buy it, the cover looked like shit and I wasnt really interested in the Media of SR at the time. But I wanted the urban Brawl and combat biking rules. So I dropped the cash for the books. Now you you can google it. If I was so inclined back in the day I could have probably found that stuff on line as well. Too bad FASA collapsed. I just dont get it, you love a game so much you feel compelled to steal it and thus killing it.

On eco hippies. They can die. I dont mind people they try to actively take a step in the right direction, but do it quietly. I dont care what you have to say. I mean really. Do you know the ecological impact your computer alone has caused? The gold in teh chips, the silicone n the chips, the steal the box is made of the plastics the copper wires are wrapped in. Im sure your computer was plucked off the magical computer tree and flewn on pixie wings to yoru house where your solar panels are powering your house at 20% effeciency. Meanign to get any reall power out of solar panels youll need to cut a lot of trees or destroy large fields to put done these marvels of indutrial technology to power your house. I love when eco hippies cry about the environment. One company I worked for had one. He asked the company to sponsor a recycling program. The company said they had no interest in spending their money on recycling. They told him if he wanted to spend the money of it they wouldnt stop him. Guess how many recycling trash can showed up? He was also a rock climber. The guy had my oil based products adn aluminum on him then you could imagine. Oil based products alone is funny enough. But do you realize the amount of electricity it akes to smelt aluminum? Its so bad they build power plants to aluminum smleters to power these things, and a lot of hydro electric. Thats real eco friendly.

And god damn these vegitarian and vegan hippies. I just love watching a vegeterian tell me how healthy his diet is compared to mine, but he moves like a 3 toes slot, and is pale. I do that because Im lazy and hate the sun. Even better he tells me its wromg to kill animals to eat their flesh, but has on leather shoes. Appearently they found a way to skin a cow alive so we can have leather products and not kill a cow.

Sorry in a really big rant mood the last couple days.

EDIT: that test is pretty silly. If I didnt do a few of thosethings everyday along with everyone else the world would not be what it is, for good or bad but do we really want to be flinging pooh at each other still? Crazy thing though, I live in a house with 2 other people, less then 1000 square feet of space to live in. That includes a kitchen and bathroom. The house sits on about a quarter acre of land, and it takes 4.7 acres of their mythological land to support my shelter needs? Um, my house is so old the seeds from the trees that were cut down to make my house have grown up, made new trees and are now parts of houses else where.
Eyeless Blond
*sigh* I'll try to respond to most of this later, in particular the many gross and incomprehensible misinterpretations of my argument and my position, but... well to be honest there's not much point. My position is fairly clearly laid out above. Surely at least one of you bright people out there will actually read my argument, instead of reading someone else's into it, but maybe I'm just wasting my time hoping. Suffice to say that not one person so far has actually got it right; to each of you I suggest going back and actually reading what I wrote, rather than what you perceive me as having wrote, and respond to that instead.

Then again, this is the internet, so I can hardly expect that, can I? smile.gif
Frag-o Delux
Ok, re-read, so throwing our my old freon filled refriderator and getting a new appliance will save the planet, ok, everyone, start throwing out all your perfectly fine but slightly old stuff to buy all new more energy effecient stuff. Sure well have to rape the land for more resources to supply this demand and burns millions of gallons of fuel to transport is all around the world. But wont you feel better now that yoru ecological foot print is a cunt hair slimer?

While at it, lets all ride on those city buses that dont have to go threw smog emission tests and beltch black ling filling death all over us as we sit on the side of the road waiting for them to pick us up. I hope Wal-mart puts another store with in a mile of my house, because good nknows I want to sit in the bus with a weeks worth of groceries or my new ecofriendly dishwasher.

And lets eat that salad that was made from vegetables planted, tended to and picked by machinces. Yeah, that salad is a much better use of pland then some beef raising. Unless of course you are eating those organic foods or growingthe shit in your own back yeard, which means youll need that much more room to grow food, seeing that every person in the country would need a large farm to supply their yearly food intake and to make sure they get all the proper vitamins and all. And we all know how well bad farming techniques downt effect the planet. Besides youll have plenty of time tendign yoru crops farmer brown. You only have to get to a bus stop and wait 30 minutes for the bus, to drive you to work taking another 45 minutes to go 3 miles. To get to work 25 minutes early, because if you take the bus after that one youll be 2 hours late. Then you get to do it all over again when its time to go home. I hope you work in a office building and only need to carry your fat ass to work, because I dont think the bus company will let you strap a 40 foot ladder to the top of the buss and let you store 1 ton of shingles on the back seat. And I love these cherry tomatoes you organic farmers grew, what, theyre not cherry tomatoes? They are regular tomatoes that you picked to eat before the bugs got them, so it takes 5 of these things to cover a sandwhich or 100 to make a speghetti sauce. Where my professionaly farmed tomato will cover several sandwhiches and only a few are needed to make a good sauce.

Yeah Im glad Im eco friendly. By time Im done saving earth Ill be dead at 35 poor as a retarted bastard. Look earth has been hit by meteors, its supposedly been flooded for 40 days, we are throwing all we can at her. Shes not going anywhere soon. We are, well die off long before the Earth disappears. So stop telling me to save the planet.

Im not saying lets go nuts adn throw everything out the window, but Im only going to go far enough to help as as long as its not a major hassle. Put out a recycling bin, Ill drop my shit in it what ever. Yeah I hate payign high gas prices, I remember when lol, but I have to. You are right its supply and demand. I drive my big truck a lone because I have a need for it first of all and I go alone because I generally dont like people, Im not going to be responcible for making sure someone else gets to work on time, because I barely do each day myself and well, I like my radio station, not yours.

hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 8 2006, 07:22 AM)
If you eat humans, you should qualify for a major bonus on the quiz.

~J

Does placenta count?



Copyright is a necessary evil but it is an evil, none the less.

It is an evil because it is an artificial right that serves no purpose other than to abridge a natural right. It is necessary because people have to get paid.

In our economy, the value of a thing is related to its scarcity. The more prolific something is the less it is worth. Words and ideas, either alone or in aggregrate form, are infinite by their very nature. Taking a word or an idea for your own does not diminish that word or idea for anyone else. Published works are simply aggregrates of words and ideas and they share the infinite nature of their component parts. Therefore, they have no natural value in our economic system, no matter how priceless they may be. The copyright is an artificial monopoly that is intended to create an artificial scarcity so that published works can have a value in our economy.

The problem isn't the copyright system at all. The problem is the economic system that it was created to accomidate. It needs to be overhauled in its entirety.

How? I don't know; I'm currectly accepting proposals.
Personally, I'm leaning towards creating a surpluss economy in which material goods are so plentiful that they may as well be infinite, thus eliminating the need for money. This will probably require a great deal of space exploration and open-source materials.
Anarcho-Communism may also work, but it is very difficult to achieve without such a surpluss.

Until then, support the publishers by paying for the stuff that they ask to be paid for.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Does placenta count?

Nope. The idea being that that human would have, if allowed to live, consumed a significant footprint of its own--by eating the human, you eliminate their footprint for the rest of what would have otherwise been their life, plus you don't use any resources that they haven't already used for your supper that night.

Placental tissue usually doesn't consume resources of its own.

~J
emo samurai
Dude, I'm buying street magic tomorrow. Chill.
Grinder
Awesome!

biggrin.gif
nezumi
Meh, I'll marginally side with Eyeless. But maybe that's because I'm stuck in a tiny apartment with four people, a nissan that gets 32mpg, free bus tickets and plenty of farmer's markets nearby (my footprint was around 13, but I question that, both because my electricity use is higher than it should be, and because we are temendously thrifty in other areas).

Keep in mind, the oil companies are limited in what they can do because new "green" laws have put such harsh limits on oil refineries, that the oil companies can't afford to build any new ones. So on the one side we have people voting to make oil cleaner, and on the other people making their oil consumption unnaturally high through the purchase of ridiculously huge cars. I don't feel bad for the oil companies, but I don't think they are necessarily unethical either (people speculating on the price of oil and driving up the price on the other hand...)
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Dude, I'm buying street magic tomorrow. Chill.

What, that's supposed to make us feel better?

~J
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (nezumi)
Meh, I'll marginally side with Eyeless. But maybe that's because I'm stuck in a tiny apartment with four people, a nissan that gets 32mpg, free bus tickets and plenty of farmer's markets nearby (my footprint was around 13, but I question that, both because my electricity use is higher than it should be, and because we are temendously thrifty in other areas).

Keep in mind, the oil companies are limited in what they can do because new "green" laws have put such harsh limits on oil refineries, that the oil companies can't afford to build any new ones. So on the one side we have people voting to make oil cleaner, and on the other people making their oil consumption unnaturally high through the purchase of ridiculously huge cars. I don't feel bad for the oil companies, but I don't think they are necessarily unethical either (people speculating on the price of oil and driving up the price on the other hand...)

Yeah I dont mind blind capitalism, its what would let me become rich if I felt like it.

I dont like those speculators either. When BP announced two days ago its oil pipe in alaska has to be closed down for repairs you could lmost hear the vaccuum in your wallet start sucking. One report says that pipe from BP is about 6% of the oil being piped out of Alaska yet the market shows are saying the price of oil may jump $10 a barrel in the next few days and the pric of gasoline with start to increase much faster over the next few months or what ever it takes to repair that pipe. Speculators all over the news making up numbers and projecting where they think the price may go can easily help that number be reached, its nuts.
James McMurray
BP made somewhere along the lines of $55,000 per minute (profit) last quarter. I don't think they have anything to worry about.
Grinder
QUOTE (Oracle)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Aug 8 2006, 09:20 AM)
Only when your footprint is below 4.5 can you start whinning about how oil prices are someone else's problem; until then it's yours too.

My footprint is 4.4. Only 0.2 points resulting from mobility. wink.gif

Hit 4.8, not bad either, compared to 13,7 of the average german.

I'm living with five other people in an old, but modernized, villa (only thing missing are solar panels on the roof), don't have a car, ride by bike to work (three kilometers one drive), use train and subway top get to university and never ever used a plane.

So what's that gasoline you're talking about? biggrin.gif
Critias
14, and couldn't care less.
Calvin Hobbes
Wooooooo!

They'd need 12 planets to keep up with my lifestyle! Hah!
SL James
hahahaha

QUOTE
IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE YOU, WE WOULD NEED 5.8 PLANETS


26 acres. That's pretty damn good.
James McMurray
Buncha pansies! 35 acres and 7.8 planets.
SirKodiak
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

(Edit): While I'm on my soapbox, there are lots of easy ways to lower your footprint:
1) Buy a new dishwasher/refridgerator/washing machine.


This can be a false savings. Keep in mind that your current machine has already been produced. You have to compare the expected efficiency loss over the remaining lifetime of the current machine to the cost to manufacture the new machine and dispose of the old one.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

2) Invest in solar panels on your roof, especially if your roof has lots of southern exposure. This is a big one; in 10-20 years if your house doesn't have solar it'll basically be a fixer-upper.


I live in one of the most overcast cities in the United States, not very near the equator. The house has limited southern exposure, with what little it has blocked mostly by trees. Considering the ecological nightmare that is solar cell production and disposal, and how little power they produce, it would not be beneficial for me to install them on my house. Now, there is enough active research on solar panels that this might change in the future, and I'm keeping an eye out for that.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

3) Eat salads with lunch and dinner.


The United States has more than enough food production to support eating meat, and the energy cost to transport grain to places that might need it more would be worse, ecologically.

It is not an ethical requirement that we eat less well because some places are overpopulated.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

4) Recycle.


Yes, clearly. No argument there.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

5) Use public transit

Only the last one is even particularly painful, and all are positive steps.


I take public transportation most of the time, but it's not always an option.
mfb
i feel left out, only 9 acres and 2 planets.

though i think the whole measurement is a false standard. sure, if everyone lived like me, we'd need 2 planets--but so what? how many people actually do live like me? "9 acres and 2 planets" says absolutely nothing about how much impact my lifestyle actually has on the planet, because there's no context provided for how many acres and planets the rest of the world's population is using. if 99% of the population is using 0.5 acres and 0.5 planets, or something, and the other 1% is using 500,000 acres and 10 planets, the planet is not being affected negatively according to this test. that 1% is guilt-free.
James McMurray
You're obviously not trying hard enough. On your way out the next time you're headed somewhere you should swing by a cheap gas station and start up the pump then drive away. The waste alone will help, but with any luck it'll blow the gas station up, filling the sky with black smoke and forcing people to drive to farther, more expensive stations.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (SirKodiak)
Keep in mind that your current machine has already been produced.

In most cases, so has the new one.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

2) Invest in solar panels on your roof, especially if your roof has lots of southern exposure. This is a big one; in 10-20 years if your house doesn't have solar it'll basically be a fixer-upper.

Bad idea. Solar power only makes sense in very sunny areas with unobstructed Equator-facing rooftops/walls. Go for solar air heating and solar water heating instead, they're much more worth it.

~J
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