Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Street Magic now available!
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
Synner
Mfb should have been in the shout outs since only actual authors get writing credits. Mea culpa, unfortunately I got so wrapped up in the final editing and revision that sent in several additions to that section too late - which is why I mentioned him here. I'll try to get him added in any updated pdfs or print runs, since I know how cranky he'll get if his name isn't in an SR4 book wink.gif.
Grinder
QUOTE (Synner)
I'll try to get him added in any updated pdfs or print runs, since I know how cranky he'll get if his name isn't in an SR4 book wink.gif.

That will be his greatest gift ever. biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
is there a max rating for power trow?
if not then i can see a bullseye style adept coming my way nyahnyah.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 9 2006, 03:56 PM)
is there a max rating for power trow?

It's limited twice:

First, it's Rating is limited to <Magic>.
Second, as Strength is modified, the Augmented Attribute Caps still apply.

So while, given infinite karma and infinite initate grades, the Power Throw Rating may be infinite, it becomes useless on the long run.
hobgoblin
hmm, it only modifies for range and damage when using trown weapons so would not be 100% sure about it being limited by max augmented attribute.
Brahm
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
hmm, it only modifies for range and damage when using trown weapons so would not be 100% sure about it being limited by max augmented attribute.

It is a bonus to Str, not a bonus to range and damage.
hobgoblin
yes, but it only applys for calculating range and damage with a trown weapon. but i realy need to go over how those mods are supposed to work as i recall there being a thread about it in the stickys...
Rotbart van Dainig
It's the same as bone reinforcements or the combat sense power:
Even though it only influences attributes under certain circumstances, it does not have an written exception to the attribute cap.
Thus, it is limited.
James McMurray
If it says "increase strength" it gets capped. If it says "range and damage treated as if you stregth were higher" then it doesn't.
Rotbart van Dainig
It's closer to the former.
hobgoblin
bah, this is (non)stacking bonuses in D20 all over again frown.gif
James McMurray
What's wrong with capped attributes? They've always been there, just handled slightly differently. And as with most things in SR, they're incredibly easy to remove if you want to go that route.
Serbitar
To my knowledge, combat sense and bone reinfocements are bonus dice and do not count toward any cap.
Brahm
QUOTE
bah, this is (non)stacking bonuses in D20 all over again 

It seems pretty clear to me. It isn't quite as bad as D20 because there you usually had to find the names of all the bonuses to compare for duplicates, and then they had those 3 exceptions that always stacked (unnamed, and i think the others were deflection and dodge? bah, it's been a while). Exceptions bad. nyahnyah.gif
QUOTE
Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s effective
Strength solely for the purpose of determining range and
damage of thrown weapons and objects.

Now they did throw in the, as far as I know, undefined word 'effective'. But other than that it seems pretty clear that it boosts Str and not range and damage. Notice that they add 2 points as well. Normally Powers just add one per level. This is really adding 1 box of damage per level, and it involves less math specifying that way. But by having it add to Str they cap it.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 9 2006, 04:31 PM)
What's wrong with capped attributes? They've always been there, just handled slightly differently. And as with most things in SR, they're incredibly easy to remove if you want to go that route.

its mostly that you have to carefully look at the wording of any modifier before you can tell if its supposed to be affected by said cap or not.

ie, its like the D20 stuff where you have to look for one of several diffrent words (and a writer can allways introduce a new one) to see if they match, and if they do the effects dont stack. if they dont then they stack.

hell, im better of taking general strength improvement for my adept den this power as both hit the cap but the general improvement helps in more areas.

and its highly unlikely to hit the magic cap before it hits the attribute cap...
Serbitar
Something is only then affected by the cap if it is added to the attribute under ANY conditions (with the possible exception of cyberlimbs, its more complicated there, because of the rules when a modfication applies to what effect). Everything else is bonus dice to a certain task.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Something is only then affected by the cap if it is added to the attribute under ANY conditions

That's wrong, the definition of Augmented never demands that.
James McMurray
QUOTE
(unnamed, and i think the others were deflection and dodge? bah, it's been a while).


Dodge and circumstance. And yes, exceptions are generally a bad idea. Sometimes they can't be avoided easily.

QUOTE
hell, im better of taking general strength improvement for my adept den this power as both hit the cap but the general improvement helps in more areas.


I don't have the book yet, but presumably the power is much cheaper than straight strength enhancement, and the differences are minimal if you don't plan on swinging a strength based weapon. I could see this being a great power for a guy that wants to use thrown weapons and a monowhip, if it's priced right.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Something is only then affected by the cap if it is added to the attribute under ANY conditions

That's wrong, the definition of Augmented never demands that.

But the definition of bonus in opposition to agumentation demands that.

Something is a bonus die, when it only affects certain tasks, something is a permanent augmentation if it works permanently.

If you disagree, please tell me your definition.
Rotbart van Dainig
There is no definition of bonus dice concerning attributes.
Thus, anything that involves the modification of attribute values falls under the definition of augmented attributes.
DireRadiant
This is one of those issues that could have been easily solved and remove lots of confusion for everyone. But there would be less questions on DS.

The fundemental SR4 mechanic is

Attribute + Skill + Pool Modifiers = # dice to Roll for test

For every power/spell/cyberware/bioware/modifier if they simply defined it as either a

a) Attribute Modifier (Capped)
b) Skill Modifier (Capped)
c) Pool Modifier (NO CAP)

and listed it consistently many of the arguments and discussion we have here would go away.

The simple minded way of looking at this is

A + B + C = D

and modifiers add to A or B or C to create D

A and B have caps, C doesn't.

Frankly, if you see how simple this issue is to solve, it makes you wonder why it even comes up in the first place.
DireRadiant
Okay, it's slightly more complicated, but the complication is typically because C is conditional on A or B equaling certain values.

e.g. Given A + B + C = D

C = 2 When A = Str
C = 1 When B = Dodge

Still incredibly simple to model and define.
Synner
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 9 2006, 02:36 PM)
QUOTE
Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s effective
Strength solely for the purpose of determining range and
damage of thrown weapons and objects.

Now they did throw in the, as far as I know, undefined word 'effective'. But other than that it seems pretty clear that it boosts Str and not range and damage.

The Power Throw power does not augment the Strength Attribute and so it is not subject to Att. caps. In fact it also adds nothing to your Strength + Throwing skill dice pool meaning it is not a dice pool modifier either.

Its effects are expressed outside the Test mechanisms. What it does is allow you to calculate maximum throwing range and damage the thrown object does (and only those two things) as if you had a higher Strength rating of 2 per level of Power Throw.
Serbitar
Thanks, thats exactly what I would have said.

Same goes for bone density and combat sense.
hobgoblin
so with high enough magic you can out-"shoot" a sniper when trowing a pebble. nice wink.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 9 2006, 01:41 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 9 2006, 02:36 PM)
QUOTE
Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s effective
Strength solely for the purpose of determining range and
damage of thrown weapons and objects.

Now they did throw in the, as far as I know, undefined word 'effective'. But other than that it seems pretty clear that it boosts Str and not range and damage.

The Power Throw power does not augment the Strength Attribute and so it is not subject to Att. caps. In fact it also adds nothing to your Strength + Throwing skill dice pool meaning it is not a dice pool modifier either.

Its effects are expressed outside the Test mechanisms. What it does is allow you to calculate maximum throwing range and damage the thrown object does (and only those two things) as if you had a higher Strength rating of 2 per level of Power Throw.

I must say that is monumentally crappy wording choice then. nyahnyah.gif Why didn't you just say +1 to damage and +20% to range or something? Or be a bit more explicit that it isn't capped.
Brahm
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 9 2006, 01:43 PM)
Thanks, thats exactly what I would have said.

Same goes for bone density and combat sense.

I wouldn't be so sure, because those are added to Attribute and then added to the dice Pool. Well the bone density is. I'd have to look at the combat sense again.
Geekkake
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 9 2006, 01:43 PM)
Thanks, thats exactly what I would have said.

Same goes for bone density and combat sense.

I wouldn't be so sure, because those are added to Attribute and then added to the dice Pool. Well the bone density is. I'd have to look at the combat sense again.

I believe Combat Sense levels are added to your dodge pool, rather than your Dodge skill or Reaction attribute. This would defy the cap.
SL James
QUOTE (Synner)
Mentalist adepts are indeed still possible and get a few options (including all the old SR3 powers, Analytics, and the updated Cognition and Psychometry metamagics). Quite a few other options were left on the drawing board and are something we may well develop further down the line.

So, no Tracking... yet?
Mr. Unpronounceable
Other than the standard Astral Tracking in the main book? Not that I noticed.

Also, force-of-personality attacks vs. spirits and material links are back (didn't see those mentioned.)
Brahm
Tracking is a Physical Skill, found along with Navigation and Survival in the Outdoors Group. So Adepts can use Improved Ability (Track) at 0.25 PP/level to improve their ability to Track. Plus any aid that Improve Senses might provide. It is possible that Analytics might even provide bonus dice, although there is nothing in the rules specifically about that use.
SL James
Oh, I didn't realize that IA worked for Tracking.

Duh....
Sunder14
Anyone else catch the cardboard tube samurai reference on page 92?
Slithery D
QUOTE
Also, force-of-personality attacks vs. spirits and material links are back (didn't see those mentioned.)

Probably because material links were an obvious gimme, and force-of-personality attacks are suicidally useless with the given mechanic in almost all cases. Gee, my sammie/technomancer/hacker gets to roll his Willpower + a skill he won't have to hit. The spirit laughs and takes pity on me, and only rolls his Reaction to avoid, because he doesn't need to add in any Dodge or Unarmed Combat to be sure of success. If I burn Edge and get a freak hit, my damage is based on Charisma, which is always extremely high for non-mage/face characters. (And then if it's a fire elemental, he gets his revenge for the scratch I inflicted when I auto cook in his aura.)

To be fair, there wasn't really a better way they could have done it. And I suppose in theory the mosquitos can eventually overwhelm the bug zapper through sheer numbers. Or keep it busy until the power goes off at dawn or dusk.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Now, now...a loaded elf technomancer should seriously worry spirits.

grinbig.gif
Lebo77
QUOTE (Slithery D)
QUOTE
Also, force-of-personality attacks vs. spirits and material links are back (didn't see those mentioned.)

Probably because material links were an obvious gimme, and force-of-personality attacks are suicidally useless with the given mechanic in almost all cases. Gee, my sammie/technomancer/hacker gets to roll his Willpower + a skill he won't have to hit. The spirit laughs and takes pity on me, and only rolls his Reaction to avoid, because he doesn't need to add in any Dodge or Unarmed Combat to be sure of success. If I burn Edge and get a freak hit, my damage is based on Charisma, which is always extremely high for non-mage/face characters. (And then if it's a fire elemental, he gets his revenge for the scratch I inflicted when I auto cook in his aura.)

To be fair, there wasn't really a better way they could have done it. And I suppose in theory the mosquitos can eventually overwhelm the bug zapper through sheer numbers. Or keep it busy until the power goes off at dawn or dusk.

Might work against a F-1 spirit... Maybe the face could even beat down a F-2.
venenum
Wording question: would the familiar ordeal cost you the karma to make the ally spirit or is that inclueded in the initation cost.
Synner
QUOTE (Brahm)
I must say that is monumentally crappy wording choice then. nyahnyah.gif Why didn't you just say +1 to damage and +20% to range or something? Or be a bit more explicit that it isn't capped.

I wouldn't say crappy wording since the description specifically says exactly where the modified Strength is applicable.

To answer your question: mainly because those values didn't really give me the curve that I intended. Modifiers to damage tend to get wonky real easy when cumulative with variable damage codes (like thrown objects would have).
Synner
QUOTE (venenum)
Wording question: would the familiar ordeal cost you the karma to make the ally spirit or is that inclueded in the initation cost.

It is not included. You just get a discount to the initiation if you produce an Ally during it, instead of paying full price for both.
Brahm
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 9 2006, 07:56 PM)
I must say that is monumentally crappy wording choice then. nyahnyah.gif  Why didn't you just say +1 to damage and +20% to range or something?  Or be a bit more explicit that it isn't capped.

I wouldn't say crappy wording since the description specifically says exactly where the modified Strength is applicable.

Yes, the modified Strength that apparently avoids the cap in a way that isn't detailed in the rules anywhere. Of course this is a issue whose root lies in the core book. But you, and I use that pronoun in the collective, have now perpetuated the problem into another book. frown.gif
Serbitar
As I said:

Only modifiers that apply to an attribute all the time count towards the cap. The rest is bonus dice or whatever for a test.

This is consistent and works.
Synner
QUOTE (Brahm)
Yes, the modified Strength that apparently avoids the cap in a way that isn't detailed in the rules anywhere. Of course this is a issue whose root lies in the core book. But you, and I use that pronoun in the collective, have now perpetuated the problem into another book. frown.gif

I would note that the instances where some modifier factors into a cap are all explicitly stated in the accompanying text. I've only found one situation in the core book where this isn't the case. In all others (subject to revision by keener eyes than mine) the text explicitly states whether the modifier is an Attribute modifier, a skill modifier or a dice pool modifier.

If you have any lingering doubts please mail them in and we'll try to address them in the upcoming FAQ.
Serbitar
I do not understand this.
The adept power discussed here also explicitly states that it improves an attribute. But it is not subject to capping.

So what is the discriminating point wheter something is subject of capping?

A) The presence or absence of the word "bonus" somewhere
B) Whether it is augmenting the attribute permanently for every test or not
C) Whether an attribute is mentioned or not

Your post looks like you say C (by discriminating attributes, skills and pool modifiers), but this would mean the adept power is capped. So I dont get it.
hobgoblin
it improves the stat for a limited set of circumstances.
ie, its not a boosted attribute as much as its boosted range and damage of a trown object.
Synner
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 10 2006, 12:12 AM)
I do not understand this.
The adept  power discussed here also explicitly states that it improves an attribute. But it is not subject to capping.

So what is the discriminating point wheter something is subject of capping?

The adept power as written specifically does not modify your Attribute. What it does is modify your Strength rating solely for the purpose of calculating range and damage. The main reason for this was so that it could be combined with augmented STR from another power or boost.

Had the power been intended to modify/augment the Attribute, it would read something like:
QUOTE
Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s Strength whenever he employs a thrown weapon and object. This modifier also counts for the purpose of determining range and damage of thrown weapons and objects.


Had space not been at a premium I would have probably written something like:
QUOTE
When using any form of thrown weapon, this power allows a character to calculate throwing ranges and object damage as if he had an additonal +2 points in his Strength rating for each level taken in this power.

Serbitar
Ok I get your reasoning. But thats really hard to get without bing told explicitly (at least for me).

Maybe it would have been esier to just write a (capped) or (noncapped) bracket behind every modifier in SR4.

At the moment this whole capping issue is becoming a real streamlining grave.

To sum up: You are indeed voting for C) (everything that augments an attribute is capped), but the admin power is not really boosting the attribute, it just behaves like it would boost it.

I really want to get that straight, as Nyx over at Fanpro Germany forum (implicitly) mentioned something like bone density would not count towards the attribute cap as it is giving only a boost ofr damage tests.
Brahm
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 9 2006, 07:31 PM)
What it does is modify your Strength rating solely for the purpose of calculating range and damage.

So where is the rule that explains that those modifiers are not subject to the cap? Also, Strength isn't actually used for anything else when throwing an object, right? I'm pretty sure that Throwing Weapons is Agility linked.
QUOTE
The main reason for this was so that it could be combined with augmented STR from another power or boost.

True that that is a problem with, and only a problem with, the curiously shortsightedly worded Attribute Boost. nyahnyah.gif
QUOTE
Had space not been at a premium I would have probably written something like:
QUOTE
When using any form of thrown weapon, this power allows a character to calculate throwing ranges and object damage as if he had an additonal +2 points in his Strength rating for each level taken in this power.

Um, that is shorter than what is in the book. nyahnyah.gif Or at least it is in the Times NR font.
Synner
I know that FanPro intends to address what currently falls under the capped modifiers in the upcoming FAQ, so that should help clarify things... And no I don't know when that'll be ready. It'll be ready when its ready.
Dr. Dodge
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 9 2006, 08:33 PM)
I know that FanPro intends to address what currently falls under the capped modifiers in the upcoming FAQ, so that should help clarify things... And no I don't know when that'll be ready. It'll be ready when its ready.

sometime in smarch i'm sure.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Synner)
I know that FanPro intends to address what currently falls under the capped modifiers in the upcoming FAQ, so that should help clarify things...

Let's just hope there aren't too many exceptions. Otherwise, the whole subject of having augmented caps at all would become meaningless... and if magic is the mayor exception, the good, old feeling of SR becoming Adeptrun would rise again.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012