Full Version: Dual wielding Machine Pistols?
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| So here's what finally came about: [ Spoiler ] |
Lorechaser,
How many points did your GM give you ?
Did you only replace 1 hand with a Cyberhand?
Thnaks
Stephen
| QUOTE (lorechaser) | ||
That's actually been a subject of a lot of debate - whether shooting a gun is a full arm, or just a hand. My GM has chosen to make cyberlimbs useful, and not apply it to shooting.  |
Ahhh....
I see. I suggest anyone who thinks that try shooting a gun after pumping a local anasethetic into their hand. At best you could average the AG of your hand with the rest of your body.
Cyberlimbs work fine if you buy enough of a cyberlimb that you can pack the upgrade in. Base 3 stat, + 4 enhancement, = 7 stat. It's not even expensive.
Of course it does stop you just buying the minimum cyber part replacemnt to install geegaws, and then using your body stats.........
<shrug> GM choice. Does make the build weaker for anyone else without a generous GM. Hell my GM increased Race costs to 30 for Orcs and Dwarves, and 60 for Trolls, and reduced Specalisation to +1 dice, and applys it before splitting the dice pool (although he has said I can add a gas recoil system to HV Pistols).
He did also let me take 40 points of flaws as a reward for taking Combat Paralysis in a Combat Spec PC.
Stephen
It's a straight 400 point build. But yes, only one hand. Both would have been better, but it wasn't worth the essence loss. This way, I have the good hand for full bursts, or both hands for dual wielding....
| QUOTE (Stephen_E @ Sep 28 2006, 10:25 AM) |
| On the otherhand the single hardest hitting Pistol in the core book is the Ruger Super Warhawk, SS , 6P, -2AP. Load it with EX Exlosive rounds, available to a starting character, and you're looking at a base 8P, -4AP. Nothing much short of a Troll or a really stoked Orc is likely to be standing after a hit from one of those (still kicking, sure, but prone and hurting is always a nice state to keep your enemies in). Of course they can't be silenced........ Stephen |
You know, recently I have been thinking that the stun guns are a better choice for a dual wielding character. They have a higher base damage, halve impact armor, and will most likely incapacitate most characters with it's elemental effect.
And, its completely legal and cheap as hell. Also, I'm pretty sure they don't make much sound...
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| It's a straight 400 point build. But yes, only one hand. Both would have been better, but it wasn't worth the essence loss. This way, I have the good hand for full bursts, or both hands for dual wielding.... |
Nice!
Good move with the single hand. Allows Short Burst/Long Burst on the Cyberhand while doing Short burst x2 on the flesh hand.
Stephen
| QUOTE (Stephen_E) |
| I see. I suggest anyone who thinks that try shooting a gun after pumping a local anasethetic into their hand. At best you could average the AG of your hand with the rest of your body. |
I would submit that at *worst* the average of the hand and the rest of your body should be useful. If you don't, the implication is that it's only the hand that matters -- which in turn implies that you can jack the hand up to 6 or so, and still get 6 dice to roll even if your body agility is 1. Which of course, IMO, doesn't make any sense either.
In fact, I would submit that the idea that you can ONLY use the 3 agility makes no sense at all. I'm not a gunbunny by any means, but my guess is that the majority of the "action" in shooting a handgun doesn't come from the hand. You need to be able to hold the gun steady, and pull the trigger, but I would guess that the majority comes from the arm -- because you need to keep the wrist in line with the arm to transfer the recoil into your arm and then your body.
| QUOTE (Vaevictis @ Sep 29 2006, 01:16 AM) |
| I'm not a gunbunny by any means, but my guess is that the majority of the "action" in shooting a handgun doesn't come from the hand. You need to be able to hold the gun steady, and pull the trigger, but I would guess that the majority comes from the arm -- because you need to keep the wrist in line with the arm to transfer the recoil into your arm and then your body. |
I'd argue that most of the shooting issues I've seen on stationary shooting (that are not located between the ears) are due to wrists and hands. Most of the ones located between the ears are expressed in the hands and wrist.
Limp wristing the gun causes malfunctions on many semi-autos.
Not following through (ie, you stop looking at the front sight and look at the target when the gun goes off) causes the bullets to shoot down and to the left (on a right handed shooter).
Others are anticipating the bang, jerking the trigger, clenching the gun, changing the grip as you shoot. . . Many ways to screw up shooting, and I've probably done nearly all of them.
Holding the gun steady isn't a major issue I've seen. I had it graphically demonstrated to me that the sights don't have to be rock steady to hit the target as long as the rest is good.
Not arguing one way or another on the game mechanic discussion.
| QUOTE (Stephen_E) |
| Nice! Good move with the single hand. Allows Short Burst/Long Burst on the Cyberhand while doing Short burst x2 on the flesh hand. |
Indeed. That's the plan.
I figure if we're ever in a situation where I would truly need to use full auto shots on both hands in a single action, we're so screwed I'll be burning edge like crazy anyway. And the preceeding debate is what I usually see whenever someone brings up the idea of the cyberhand limiting Agi.
I'd actually buy the averaging idea as the most likely balanced solution, but I'll take full if my GM offers.
Tape your weapons on your forearms, and fire them with your smartlink. No hands used, discussion avoided 
.
Or use those hidden gun arm slides and fire the weapons without sliding them out.
I once tried to build a char with 2 cyber-machinepistols, but got frustrated with the cyberlimb rules.
.Or use those hidden gun arm slides and fire the weapons without sliding them out.
I once tried to build a char with 2 cyber-machinepistols, but got frustrated with the cyberlimb rules.
Butterblume, you're my new hero.
I believe the rules do state that you average the stats of all limbs involved, so for example if you are running with a char that has one cyber leg you average your cyber and natural leg. In firing I would imagine that your forearm has at least some impact, although being in Britain guns are something I don't know much about.
And a benefit of dual wielding but only firing in turn is you only have to reload half as often. Use the Security 600s and you'll never need to reload again... No, just kidding. I guess light pistols aren't the best weapons in the world. But maybe dual wield Pred 4 or Colt Manhunters and you have about 30/32 rounds without reloading.
And I would imagine firing both is useful if you're fighting low skilled gangers with little to no armour, since you can just fire all the shots at one target and get double the damage. On the other hand maybe using something that can fire flechettes would just be easier, like a Slivergun or a Roomsweeper.
Did they ever clarify whether the +2 to armour applies to unarmoured targets anyway?
And a benefit of dual wielding but only firing in turn is you only have to reload half as often. Use the Security 600s and you'll never need to reload again... No, just kidding. I guess light pistols aren't the best weapons in the world. But maybe dual wield Pred 4 or Colt Manhunters and you have about 30/32 rounds without reloading.
And I would imagine firing both is useful if you're fighting low skilled gangers with little to no armour, since you can just fire all the shots at one target and get double the damage. On the other hand maybe using something that can fire flechettes would just be easier, like a Slivergun or a Roomsweeper.
Did they ever clarify whether the +2 to armour applies to unarmoured targets anyway?
Shooting (onehanded shooting in particular) is described as hand-eye co-ordination for a good reason. The arm is largely just the bit that supports the hand.
If you try shooting without using the hand, either by strapping the hand up so it has no movement, or attaching the gun to the arm, and firing with the smartlink, then you should be taking a big Agility hit anyway. This is because the human body isn't really designed to accurately point with the arm. You lose the wrist and hand and you lose a lot of flexability. The Lowerarm might be possible (but still dodgy) but from the elbow up would simply be a joke. These things might work ok at pointblank range, where the gun is virtually a melee weapon anyway, but for anything beyond that........Nah.
Personally I allow a Cyberhand on a flesh lowerarm to use the general Ag on a 2 for 1 basis, i.e. (Hand Ag*2 + Body Ag)/3, and consider myself kind.
Stephen
If you try shooting without using the hand, either by strapping the hand up so it has no movement, or attaching the gun to the arm, and firing with the smartlink, then you should be taking a big Agility hit anyway. This is because the human body isn't really designed to accurately point with the arm. You lose the wrist and hand and you lose a lot of flexability. The Lowerarm might be possible (but still dodgy) but from the elbow up would simply be a joke. These things might work ok at pointblank range, where the gun is virtually a melee weapon anyway, but for anything beyond that........Nah.
Personally I allow a Cyberhand on a flesh lowerarm to use the general Ag on a 2 for 1 basis, i.e. (Hand Ag*2 + Body Ag)/3, and consider myself kind.
Stephen
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| I once tried to build a char with 2 cyber-machinepistols, but got frustrated with the cyberlimb rules. |
Well given that Cyber firearms beyond holdout pistols are illegal in a starting character (availability) and major upgrades in game are a real pain, I can understand your frustration.
If your GM allows you to fudge the Cyberweapon availability rules I'm not sure what the problem is.
You can eith do the full Cyberarm, or the Lower Cyberarm (the latter does cost you a couple of points of Ag)
Cyberarm - Capacity 15
+4 Agility - Capcity Req 4
Gyromount - Capacity Req 4
Machine Pistol - Capacity Req 4
3 Capacity spare for later upgrading your Ag to the full +7 (total 10 Ag)
Cyber Lowerarm - Capacity 10
+2 Agility - Capcity Req 2
Gyromount - Capacity Req 4
Machine Pistol - Capacity Req 4
No spare capacity.
One could argue that a Troll Cyberlimb should have greater capacity, since their bodies are larger and the matching limbs would be larger, with consequently more space. I'd be tempted to give them a 25% bonus (round up).
Note Synthetic limbs suck as far as I can tell. The reduced Capacity, along with the increased cost, and same essence cost, puts them firmly in the "What you do if you have a limb involuntarily removed and want to continue looking normal" category. For a Shadowrunner, wear long sleeves and gloves if it's such a big deal to you.
Stephen
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| If shrinking a obscene dicepool is what you're going for try spreading out your BP. There's always some skill out there that could use a rank or two, just in case. For example, the money/essence spent on the suprathyroid gland is rarely worth it. Also, having 6 in Automatics isn't as useful as, say, some negotiation or con if you plan on keeping a secret. Etiquette or Con are used when trying not to look suspcious, something a runner has to do A LOT! |
Hmm reminds my of my current character, an Elf named Jack Kain. Often called Lightning Jack.
He wields a machine pistol (but doesn't dual)
and has 18 dice pool with his machine pistol. Including the smartlink. He also has a six in automatics.
With his alphaware rating 2 wired reflexs he has shown the enemy why he's lightning Jack.
He has the influence group at 4, with a six charisma.
| QUOTE (Stephen_E) |
| Cyberarm - Capacity 15 +4 Agility - Capcity Req 4 Gyromount - Capacity Req 4 Machine Pistol - Capacity Req 4 3 Capacity spare for later upgrading your Ag to the full +7 (total 10 Ag) |
But you have to have a cybertorso to get your enhancement ratings above ranking 3.
So from my reading, the highest you can get is +3 agility, putting you at a 6. That's not bad for a starting character, but cyberlimbs don't get the benefits of any cyber or bioware.
So that's a hard cap of Agi 6 on your shootin' arm. Not a good long term prospect, and inferior to a lot of starting concepts.
I would say, get the Gas Vents, ignore the cyberhands. You don't need that much recoil compensation, and the cyberlimbs seem to be hurting (AGI, essence) more than they help.
The reason you don't need that much recoil comp? Because dual-suppression fire is so much better than aiming.
The reason you don't need that much recoil comp? Because dual-suppression fire is so much better than aiming.
IIRC,
For a human, the maximum augmented attribute is 9, so you would not be able to use the full +7 agility on a cyberlimb.
You would have to be an elf to use the full +7.
A troll would not be able to go above +5, maxed out at 8 in Agility.
For a human, the maximum augmented attribute is 9, so you would not be able to use the full +7 agility on a cyberlimb.
You would have to be an elf to use the full +7.
A troll would not be able to go above +5, maxed out at 8 in Agility.
Huh.
A troll with two cyberarms actually has a *higher* starting agility than a normal troll. And their max is only 1 less.
That's kinda interesting....
A troll with two cyberarms actually has a *higher* starting agility than a normal troll. And their max is only 1 less.
That's kinda interesting....
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| Huh. A troll with two cyberarms actually has a *higher* starting agility than a normal troll. And their max is only 1 less. That's kinda interesting.... |
By the same token, that troll's Strength with those arms is pretty poor. Which is why we need metatype-specific cyberlimb rules.
| QUOTE (Eben McKay) |
| The reason you don't need that much recoil comp? Because dual-suppression fire is so much better than aiming. |
Yeah, but suppressive fire is a complex action, so you can't use dual suppression.
| QUOTE (Butterblume) | ||
Yeah, but suppressive fire is a complex action, so you can't use dual suppression. |
Are you sure? I know that full bursts and suppression are both complex actions, but I'd assume that since you can fire two SA guns with one simple action, that rule would extend to firing two FA guns with one complex action.
Well, IIRC by the letter of the RAW you can only dual-wield weapons fired with a simple action.
Although, I can think of no logical reason why one couldn't hold a pistol in each hand and squeeze the trigger. I mean, it's not like you're aiming or anything.
edit: I'm not even close to 100% sure I'm right about the RAW, here. I just can't look it up right now.
Although, I can think of no logical reason why one couldn't hold a pistol in each hand and squeeze the trigger. I mean, it's not like you're aiming or anything.
edit: I'm not even close to 100% sure I'm right about the RAW, here. I just can't look it up right now.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Although, I can think of no logical reason why one couldn't hold a pistol in each hand and squeeze the trigger. I mean, it's not like you're aiming or anything. |
Actually, the same thought crossed my mind, but I didn't want to type so much
.After all, you still split the dice pool.
I am not really sure how to handle this. Suppressing a greater area (or two different areas) is the obvious thing, but I need to think about suppressing the same area twice.
IMO, a good way to handle dual-suppression would be to split the dice pools for each suppressing gun. If there is an area of overlap in the suppression corridors, that area rolls the full amount of dice instead. This way you can suppress two different areas simultaneously, but it won't become brokenly lethal when you suppress the same area twice. Another possibility, since you are firing twice the number of bullets into the same area, would be to split the dice pools and have the targets in the doubly suppressed area roll to avoid two attacks instead of one.
Just now, talking about suppressing two areas simultaneously, I thought of a runner sitting in a rolling office chair, kicking off into a hallway with his machine pistols pointing both directions and opening up on the guards at both ends.
Just now, talking about suppressing two areas simultaneously, I thought of a runner sitting in a rolling office chair, kicking off into a hallway with his machine pistols pointing both directions and opening up on the guards at both ends.
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