Full Version: Is SR3 magic broken?
| QUOTE (Ophis) |
| However the lower base damage of combat spells in SR4 (no cast at deadly) means that while it is harder to resist in 4 your less likely to dropped by the first shot as I found in SR3. Since all mages I saw cast their combat spell at 6 they had both more dice and lower TNs than the target, cast at deadly=dead target and TN 3 for drain (manabolt, powerbolt is only for vehicles) means fairly easy to ignore the drain with a few bonus dice. Now a force six manbolt does similar drain (ie nowt) and the cast can do 12 boxes max with your resist reducing tht straight down so it's likely to be 10ish boxes which a decent thug can take (okay only once, but then it's his turn and -3 dice won't save the mage from two bursts of Ex Ex from sammies AR) |
...given a target Sammie character has an average of WP 3, that equates to an average of 1 hit vs the to resist the mage's total (Net hits + Spell Force). It is quite possible (due to overcasting, foci bonuses etc that a force 5 spell can exceed 10 total hits for resistance purposes. For a character with a 4 body (better than average) that still means one shot & you're basically down for the count.
On the other hand, the mage gets to wear armour (which most usually do) so he or she has more dice to resits the Sammie's shot than 2 (usually 9 - 11 yielding 3 average hits). Now if the mage also has an armour spell up, this stacks onto the defence pool. In this instance, the mage has a far better chance to shake down (possibly even shake off) the damage form the Sammie's weapon than the Sammie has to shake down the spell. If the Mage wears more armoutr than her body allows this only subntracts one die (which can be made up by other means) from the total dice pool.
In SR3, willpower (or Body) sets the Target number so if the Sammie has a 6 (which the original Kyoto Kid had) this means the mage must roll 6s instead of 5s to hit. 6s have lower odds of occurance than 5s so the Sammie has a better chance to shake the effects down (or off) since there would be less net successes to stage the damage up. In addition, the mage must allocate her spell pool for the entire turn so the dice pool wouild be smaller than in SR4 where the total of skill & attribute is applied every IP.
Now for the mage defending against the Sammie in SR3, she is limited as to how much mundane armour she can wear by her Quickness attribute. For every block of 2 over this limit, an additional +1 modifier is imposed. This is much more limiting than simply losing a die from the total pool. Also, to dodge the Sammie's shot, the mage needs to allocate dice form her combat pool for the entire combat turn (which takes away from the pool available to shake down damage) whereas in SR4 she gets her full Reaction attribute every IP (which can be augmented by spells) and total of body & armour to shake off damage.
I've played enough in both systems now with characters of equivalent power levels and can safely say that my SR3 characters had far more success withstanding spells cast at them than their SR4 counterparts.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Sep 7 2006, 04:01 PM) |
| ...given a target Sammie character has an average of WP 3, that equates to an average of 1 hit vs the to resist the mage's total (Net hits + Spell Force). It is quite possible (due to overcasting, foci bonuses etc that a force 5 spell can exceed 10 total hits for resistance purposes. For a character with a 4 body (better than average) that still means one shot & you're basically down for the count. |
[edit]In order to consisitently get 10 hits, etc I'd have to be throwing 30 dice. Considering my max magic before initiation is 6, and max spellcasting is 6 (+2 for combat spell focus), and I'll only get +2 dice from my mentor spirit, I'll have to be a level 8 initiate with a force 6 spell focus to get those 30 dice. If I'm that tough, and I'm smacking down an average starting mundane runner, I should be getting one-shot kills...[/end edit]
hmmm, let's see if I remember enough SR3 to calculate this:
SR3 - decent mage vs tough mundane:
Mage with Sorcery 6, Spell Pool 6, Will 6 casts Force 6 Manabolt(Deadly) (using all of pool) at mundane target who's Will is 6... On average, Mage gets a couple successes, and mundane only gets one on the resistance test and dies. Mage throws 6 dice at 3(Deadly Stun) drain, gets a couple successes and knocks it down to a serious stun.
SR4 - decent mage vs tough mundane:
Mage with Spellcasting 4, Magic 5, Will 4, and Charisma 4 casts Force 8 Manabolt at mundane target who's Will is 4... On average, Mage gets 3 successes and mundane gets 1, netting 8+2 = 10 boxes of damage (close to deadly, but not quite). Mage rolls 8 dice at 4DV drain, and gets either 1 or 2 boxes of physical damage.
It maybe me, but in our games mundanes can use Combat Pool to resist damage.
So why do people always mention spell pool for the mage but never combat pool for the mundane?
And why mention Spell pool to begin with? Its not like the mage refreshes his pool every round, so its not like its always a killing factor. And last time I checked mages still get mods for throwing spells, like cover and visibility, not making a mage use those mods and forcing a Sammy to do it is a reason to say magic is broken. But then again it maybe a house rule Im miss remembering.
So why do people always mention spell pool for the mage but never combat pool for the mundane?
And why mention Spell pool to begin with? Its not like the mage refreshes his pool every round, so its not like its always a killing factor. And last time I checked mages still get mods for throwing spells, like cover and visibility, not making a mage use those mods and forcing a Sammy to do it is a reason to say magic is broken. But then again it maybe a house rule Im miss remembering.
| QUOTE |
| 10 boxes of damage (close to deadly, but not quite). |
Huh? 10 boxes is exactly deadly damage, filling up a target witha 4 stat's damage track.
Combat pool won't make a difference in this example. That said, trading 1 or 2 boxes of damage (even Physical) for a near-kill without incapacitation is a much better deal than trading 6 boxes of Stun for 10 boxes of Physical. Which result you think is "correct" is a matter of taste.
~J
Edit: and if it is a near-kill with incapacitation, even stronger.
~J
Edit: and if it is a near-kill with incapacitation, even stronger.
In SR3 you are usually better off setting the base spell at less than deadly (my group usually does moderate). You're fairly likely to stage the damage up to serious or deadly anyway, and are almost gauranteed to not take any drain. In that way SR3 mages can mow through opponents quickly and with little chance of dmaging themselves.
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Sep 7 2006, 05:24 PM) | ||
[edit]In order to consisitently get 10 hits, etc I'd have to be throwing 30 dice. Considering my max magic before initiation is 6, and max spellcasting is 6 (+2 for combat spell focus), and I'll only get +2 dice from my mentor spirit, I'll have to be a level 8 initiate with a force 6 spell focus to get those 30 dice. If I'm that tough, and I'm smacking down an average starting mundane runner, I should be getting one-shot kills...[/end edit] |
Not to mention to get 10 hits you need a force 10 spell or you've spent edge. I believe he meant that the defender would have to get 10 hits to fully defend, but to "exceed" that you have to spend edge, because your hits are limited to the spell's force.
In either edition a mundane against a mage is screwed. If your GM puts you up against security gaurds that don't have magical backup he has either juiced them up quite a bit to compensate, expects you to win fairly easily, or has miscalculated.
I can imagine it, though...
...however, In SR3 most mages rarely toss their entire spell pool into one attack (unless it is a last ditch desperation shot) since they need to allocate it over the entire combat turn so the total of dice rolled would be less. Other factors also weigh in such as visibility, sustaining a spell, wound effects which raise the target number thus dramatically reducing the chance of success.
In SR4, the spellcaster gets to use her Skill + Magic (and appropriate totem/foci bonuses) for each IP. Even if the pool is reduced by modifiers, the spell's force still translates to hits if the casting is successful. (meaning force 5 = 6 hits [Force + 1 for the succeess] which is more than 50% the approprite condition of most target subjects)
In SR4, the spellcaster gets to use her Skill + Magic (and appropriate totem/foci bonuses) for each IP. Even if the pool is reduced by modifiers, the spell's force still translates to hits if the casting is successful. (meaning force 5 = 6 hits [Force + 1 for the succeess] which is more than 50% the approprite condition of most target subjects)
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Can somebody make a picture of an emo samurai? |
| QUOTE (will_rj) |
| It´s still there. Relax, focus. You´ll find it. |
Cool. But can he draw an emo samurai? One who cuts himself?
Like a masochist? I didn't ask... I just asked for what I imagine every time I read your username. I guess if the sammy allocates all his combat pool to damage resistance instead of his attack, and has low rank in his melee weapon skill, then he can let others cut him in combat (saving him the effort) and soak it up, stage it down and keep coming back for more. If drawn, he'd just look like an unusually clumsy street sam with tattered clothing hanging in ribbons.
Mages who cast multiple Force 6 Manabolts also leave big, fat fingerprints of pre-meditated murder behind. If a Lone Star mage gets to the scene this would be a big deal, and with the wrong corp even bigger.
| QUOTE (odei) |
| Mages who cast multiple Force 6 Manabolts also leave big, fat fingerprints of pre-meditated murder behind. If a Lone Star mage gets to the scene this would be a big deal, and with the wrong corp even bigger. |
Just don't forget to erase your signature before you leave.
| QUOTE (Frag-o Delux) |
| It maybe me, but in our games mundanes can use Combat Pool to resist damage. |
By canon, not from spell damage (except for elemental manipulations, which are dodged and soaked like any normal attack). Against a manabolt, it's the mundane's Willpower vs. the mage's Sorcery (Spellcasting) plus any Spell Pool he cares to use. The mundane doesn't get a separate check for soaking the damage, doesn't get Combat Pool, but does get to use any Spell Defense that may have been allocated him by friendly casters.
| QUOTE |
| So why do people always mention spell pool for the mage but never combat pool for the mundane? |
Because Spell Pool applies and Combat Pool doesn't.
| QUOTE |
| And why mention Spell pool to begin with? |
Because it's a sizable pool of extra attack dice that an unsupported mundane doesn't get and can't counter.
| QUOTE |
| Its not like the mage refreshes his pool every round, so its not like its always a killing factor. |
If by "round" you mean "pass", then no, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore it. The mage only has to kill you once, and if he can do that by dumping all his Spell Pool dice on you first pass and utterly hobliterating you, it doesn't matter if he's "only" got Sorcery dice to use on your cooling corpse for the next pass or two before his pool refreshes. Even if he doesn't kill you outright, he'll almost certainly have done enough damage that "just" Sorcery dice are sufficient to finish you off. And, remember, the mage gets Combat Pool too (and usually a lot of it, given the attributes it's based on), and using his Spell Pool to support his offense lets him reserve his Combat Pool entirely for defense.
And if by "round" you mean "turn", then it's actually exactly like that.
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