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emo samurai
From what I've read, you can reduce almost all your karma costs down to nearly zero with metaplanar quests you don't have to roleplay and orichalcum.
Bodak
Just play it yourself. It's not broken. It's magic. It does what it does, and it can't do what it can't do.
James McMurray
QUOTE (emo samurai)
From what I've read, you can reduce almost all your karma costs down to nearly zero with metaplanar quests you don't have to roleplay and orichalcum.

The italicized part is not a rule. If the GM chooses not to roleplay metaplanar quests that's his choice, not areflection on the magic rules.
Moon-Hawk
Well, there is the official option to just have the mage resist a listed damage for each place in the quest, rather than roleplaying it.
I agree that the GM has to choose not to roleplay the quests, but even if the GM does choose that, he/she is still playing within the rules.
Those rules can be nice if the party's spellcaster decides to go on an unanticipated quest as part of a run, but for any quest that you might know about ahead of time (such as for an initiation or learning a spell or whatever) I think that should be RPed out on the side. Have that character's player show up for the session an hour early or something.
The GM really should be RPing as many metaplanar quests as possible.
eidolon
Dammit. Hit the wrong button. My answer is no.

Just because you don't feel like running it well doesn't make it broken. Actually, I'd say that from your original question, you don't have enough knowledge or understanding to even validate asking.
Bodak
QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 6 2006, 03:57 PM)
Actually, I'd say that from your original question, you don't have enough knowledge or understanding to even validate asking.

If I understand correctly, Emu doesn't even play 3rd edition shadowrun. He's not asking a question to help him play or GM a game. Any responses given here won't be put to use. It's just a way to start an argument he can watch. Or to criticise MitS without buying it.
Kagetenshi
Define "broken". It has places that, sadly, demand house-action (whether official houseruling or merely a spoken or unspoken agreement not to do certain things), so one could call it broken based on that—making Orichalcum is the big thing, though that's more a money issue. Is it unusable? No.

~J
SL James
QUOTE (Bodak)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 6 2006, 03:57 PM)
Actually, I'd say that from your original question, you don't have enough knowledge or understanding to even validate asking.

If I understand correctly, Emu doesn't even play 3rd edition shadowrun. He's not asking a question to help him play or GM a game. Any responses given here won't be put to use. It's just a way to start an argument he can watch. Or to criticise MitS without buying it.

And yet people keep responding to this shit.

And yes, I see the irony. Thank you in advance for pointing it out.
Homme-qui-rigole
Sure, there are some rules broken, but generally SR3 Magic work better than SR4 Magic
James McMurray
Hey! Look at the irony in that last SL James post!!! wink.gif

You're welcome. smile.gif
James McMurray
QUOTE (Homme-qui-rigole)
Sure, there are some rules broken, but generally SR3 Magic work better than SR4 Magic

And there it is. The statement the original troll was digging for. Step back folks! smile.gif
Bodak
/sigh
Please can we have this "poll" locked?
Beaumis
Yup we could lock it. Or we could prove the system is not broken by pointing out that each astral quest to reduce karma points takes [rating]d6 hours to complete.
So even if your DM choses not to roleplay and choses to ignore the optional rules to just let your karma reduction fly, your group sure as hell wont stand for the mage never answering his phone when a new job is in because he's away on the planes, minimizing karma cost on the new spell.
emo samurai
Dude, I'm not trying to criticize Mits, I'm trying to find out if I should play SR3 instead of SR4.

Jesus.

And since you have so overwhelmingly come out in favor of it not being broken despite the exploits, I think I'll buy MITS.

Happy?
Bodak
Maybe not this time. I refer you to your erudite opinion:
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Since magic will probably be the relevant stat for enchanting, I'm assuming they will help a lot.

Orihalcum's a broken game mechanic.
in the other thread.

If you were considering buying MitS your poll would have been "Would buying MitS benefit me and my game since I play SR4 and am considering playing SR3?" Then everyone would have voted yes. MitS provides useful background for 4th and is nearly essential for 3rd.

Asking if the 3rd ed magic system is "broken" on a board where you know full-well lots of people play 3rd ed and like it, but that no system is ever perfect, is provocative to say the least. Pull the other leg - it's detachable.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Homme-qui-rigole)
Sure, there are some rules broken, but generally SR3 Magic work better than SR4 Magic

...for one thing, Mundanes have a better chance to resist spells since Body and WIllpower attibute ratings define the caster's target numbers in most instances.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Homme-qui-rigole)
Sure, there are some rules broken, but generally SR3 Magic work better than SR4 Magic

...for one thing, Mundanes have a better chance to resist spells since Body and WIllpower attibute ratings define the caster's target numbers in most instances.

Which really did make the world of difference. Hmm... house rule ideas abound in my mind now...
Kyoto Kid
...of course, I am taking this from a mundane character's point of view.

With the Variable Target Number (set by attribute) in SR3, most of my characters withstood spells cast at them more easily. They may have taken some damage/effect, but at least they didn't go down in one shot.

In my book, that is not broken

With the Fixed Target number and Attribute Cap in SR4, Character attributes (other than Body for a few transformation manipulations) have no effect vs. spells. You basically take the hits since the caster is usually flinging more dice than your character can defend against which usually has resulted in the character going down pretty much the first time they were hit.

In my book, that is broken.
Ophis
However the lower base damage of combat spells in SR4 (no cast at deadly) means that while it is harder to resist in 4 your less likely to dropped by the first shot as I found in SR3. Since all mages I saw cast their combat spell at 6 they had both more dice and lower TNs than the target, cast at deadly=dead target and TN 3 for drain (manabolt, powerbolt is only for vehicles) means fairly easy to ignore the drain with a few bonus dice. Now a force six manbolt does similar drain (ie nowt) and the cast can do 12 boxes max with your resist reducing tht straight down so it's likely to be 10ish boxes which a decent thug can take (okay only once, but then it's his turn and -3 dice won't save the mage from two bursts of Ex Ex from sammies AR)
JonathanC
I liked the 3rd edition magic system. Metaplanar quests are, by definition, a serious risk. There's nothing saying that you'll automatically succeed, and since it's not a single test, or even the same kind of test every time, you can't really plan out a way to munchkin your stats around completing it. To say nothing of the fact that your buddies can't really help you, unless they can also travel to the metaplanes.

Likewise, can you even do a metaplanar quest if you haven't initiated at least once already?
Green Eyed Monster
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 6 2006, 06:53 PM)
Likewise, can you even do a metaplanar quest if you haven't initiated at least once already?

Yes, but it is not real easy. Need access to the metaplanes. Like through a free spirits astral gateway power.
Wounded Ronin
Yes, play SR3, you romo.
James McMurray
Why would you call him a short-lived British pop cultural movement?
mfb
what i really find hilarious is how emo constantly provokes flames (by his own admission), but once in a while he's all "zomgz how could you guys think i'd do that!"
James McMurray
Really? I've never seen him say "zomgz."
mfb
artistic license. (he also uses capital letters, the commie bastard)
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Why would you call him a short-lived British pop cultural movement?

Because I want to imagine him with a Hong Kong british accent asking if SR3 magic is broken or not.
James McMurray
How odd. . . .

wink.gif
Rajaat99
Since when has emo replaced goth? I heard some youngin's talkin' the other day and they said that a guy was emo. And I said, "who that goth guy?" And they said, "Goth? You mean emo?"
James McMurray
Youngsters these days. you just can't keep up with their silliness.

Hey you! Get offa my lawn!!!
Adam
Goths have LiveJournals, emos have MySpaces.
emo samurai
No, that's DeadJournal.
toturi
Always remember: You are 1 mage. The GM has more.
Bodak
QUOTE (Rajaat99)
Since when has emo replaced goth?

Whenever I've seen him on the boards here, I thought he was a misspelt large Australian flightless bird with a level in a Prestige Class. After so long it's going to be difficult to get that image out of my mind and instead think of someone who gets depressed by 80s music. Dictionary.com hasn't heard of such a 'culture' (and nor had I until I Wikied it just now)... I love dumpshock... the things one learns here...
QUOTE (Wikipedia)
The perception was that melodrama was feigned, an effort to display depression or dysfunction where it didn't actually exist. Popular comments such as "don't be so emo" and "cheer up, emo kid" expressed the belief among detractors that fans of emo music took themselves too seriously.
It's enough to make anyone jealous.
Oracle
Take a goth. Remove everything stylish. Add some borderline. You got an emo.

Possibly I should have mentioned, that I am a goth. wink.gif
Bodak
I just don't see the appeal. If people made mistakes and live with regrets and live in disadvantaged countries with low social resources and negligible education and high divorce rates and unemployment and drug problems and guns on the streets and school shootings and pollution and corrupt political authorities and alcohol abuse and stuff... why would they sing about it and make more people unhappy? Why would unhappy people listen to unhappy music to become even more unhappy? Maybe I'll start a poll asking whether people think that by the time we get to 2060, what with goblinization and megacorps and deckers with ultimate power and all that kind of thing, will everyone be "emo" by then? Will someone with a chirpy attitude and a beaming smile stick out like a sore thumb?

On the other hand, being a street sammy emu... that's pretty cool.
emo samurai
Leonardo is NOT an emu!
Bodak
True. He's an adept who beats up emu street samurais (at least, I assume the emu on the left of the screen was killed by him?)
emo samurai
Can somebody make a picture of an emo samurai?
Bodak
This thread was specifically about samurai portraits, though not necessarily emu ones.

This had some links in it too. There was a thread about a month ago where a poster was doing portraits on request but I can't see it imediately using Search.
Grinder
Stupid haircut, tight band-shirt, tigh jeans, sad eyes, white skin, unhealthy appearance (due to living SxE wink.gif ). But what weapon would an emo kid sport?
Bodak
A cursed monowhip, so they can cut themselves more effectively?
emo samurai
I was going to say razor blades, but what Bodak says kind of makes that irrelevant.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Ophis)
However the lower base damage of combat spells in SR4 (no cast at deadly) means that while it is harder to resist in 4 your less likely to dropped by the first shot as I found in SR3. Since all mages I saw cast their combat spell at 6 they had both more dice and lower TNs than the target, cast at deadly=dead target and TN 3 for drain (manabolt, powerbolt is only for vehicles) means fairly easy to ignore the drain with a few bonus dice. Now a force six manbolt does similar drain (ie nowt) and the cast can do 12 boxes max with your resist reducing tht straight down so it's likely to be 10ish boxes which a decent thug can take (okay only once, but then it's his turn and -3 dice won't save the mage from two bursts of Ex Ex from sammies AR)

I find the most broken part of magic in SR4 to be that it scales up with net hits.
emo samurai
If I want the karma cost reductions, is it worth it to buy MITS?
will_rj
QUOTE (emo samurai)
If I want the karma cost reductions, is it worth it to buy MITS?

If you get geasa and a little help from a free spirit, you can get MitS for free.
will_rj
QUOTE (Bodak)
There was a thread about a month ago where a poster was doing portraits on request but I can't see it imediately using Search.

It´s still there. Relax, focus. You´ll find it.
Butterblume
QUOTE (emo samurai)
If I want the karma cost reductions, is it worth it to buy MITS?

If every MITS is worth a 20% reduction in karma costs, you should buy five.
Telion
for the most part the magic system was well thought out, though there are some quirks here and there that I don't really bother with. Some spells etc...
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