Full Version: Are Street Samurai obsolete?
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| 1 - That character doesn't replace a street samurai. He's just a combat mage, nothing more, nothings less. Any situation that restricts magic hits him fully. For example, last session my PCs fought in the house of a Wayne Gacy style twisted mage who butchered young kids in his basement. The Background in the house was +3 so a PC like yours would be hit with -3 to all his useful offensive option with no alternative. In the basement there was no light. Your PC is a human. He'd have fought at 3 dice on his spells? A street sam barely batted an eye with his thermo vision, 2 - How do you get 14 points of armor total? Your armor spell is rating 3 maximum to go on your sustaining foci so it's 3 hits maximum and therefore contribute 3 dice to your armor. Chameleon is 6 ballistic so you have a total of 9. With a barrier you could push to 12 but I don't believe the Barrier can be made to follow you around. That's what armor is for! And even if it wasn't, at level 3, it will be destroyed the first time someone shoots at you. Level 3 means armor 3 and structure 3. Pretty much any bullet hitting with one net success will penetrate and therefore disrupt and shut down the barrier. 3 - A high powered spirit isn't gonna make him virtually invisible because your guy has agility 1 and no infiltration! That means you roll no dice. And you have edge 2! So even if the guy you are hiding from has less perception than the force of your spirit, and even if it is a situation where you can use your chameleon suit (You'd be silly to assume you can wear it in any situation) and even if it's a purely visual test (your guys will be very clumsy when it comes to not making noise too and the suit won't help for that), even if all that is true on a given test... Any dude with edge 3 will spot you most of the time should the GM choose to use it. I really, really, wouldn't rely on stealth for that character. 4 - Your guy is a lighthouse in the astral. Despite your assertion, he can't have these spells on all the time. He'd never penetrate a guarded compund that has astral security. And it would be hard to activate all these spells afterward in the midst of a mission without taking some drain ; you roll an average of 3 success on drain. You need 3 success for Increased reflex, 4 for armor and 4 for Barrier. Most of the time you'll get some drain and you don't have much edge to save you from that. 5 - These are force 3 spell. Should a mage decide it's worth it to shut it down, it won't be too hard. Finally I got to give you this ; SR4 has drastically cut down (apparently) on the bad things that can happen when you have active foci. Personnally in my campaign I kept some of the previous countermeasures from previous editions but in SR4 it's not too easy to just shut down a foci from astral space. But still, no way is that guy replacing a street sam and making him obsolete. Not even close. And to be blunt, no way is he replacing the more multi-purpose mage I have in my campaign currently. That mage use is very limited in scope. He's just not a good runner. |
1. I'm almost certain I had enough cash left to buy some thermographic goggles/contact lenses. Fair enough on the background count, but from my reading of the book, it's not as common as many people think. It's not like you get BC everytime a gangbanger gets shot on a corner. It has to be a sustained emotional turmoil or something in a specific area.
2. Physical Barrier does indeed move with you. So does Mana Barrier. You're thinking of wards that are immobile (at least in relation to their structural enclosement).
3. I was talking more about defense from other mages, in this case. But Concealment takes dice from the people trying to perceive you. How many people have a perception dice pool of 6? 8? He could technically conjure a force 12 water spirit. Who's going to have dice left after that Concealment power? No dice = no rolls, so he could be walking around with bells on and go undetected.
4. Point. This is also why I said the build was hasty, and could use a well-chosen Mentor Spirit, and some other tweaks. Personally, I would go Shaman, lower the logic, and pour it into Intuition.
5. True, but while he's wasting his complex actions to counterspell 3 sustained foci, he's getting pummled with stunbolt or boiled with ball lightning.
In conclusion, yes, that mage has a lot of flaws. It was about 1:30am when I wrote those stats, and I had been awake since that morning, fairly early. I'm sure I can do better, but first, I'm going to drum up an adept, as I think they are more closely approximating the combat prowess of a street sam. I would still rather have a combat mage in most situations though.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| Fair enough on the background count, but from my reading of the book, it's not as common as many people think. |
On the contrary - the places runners will end up in, it is very common.
I'd actually be far more likely to buy that an Adept is nearly the equal of a Sammie.
The differences between them are going to be far less distinct - the Sammie will have a few things like platelets and the adept will have a few things more magical, but they'll be pretty similar.
The differences between them are going to be far less distinct - the Sammie will have a few things like platelets and the adept will have a few things more magical, but they'll be pretty similar.
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 10 2006, 01:05 PM) |
| 2. Physical Barrier does indeed move with you. So does Mana Barrier. You're thinking of wards that are immobile (at least in relation to their structural enclosement). |
Barrier spells are both area of effect and domes. How does a dome move without bumping into/getting caught on everything? And area of effect spells do not ordinarily move; the rules allow them to be shifted at the cost of a complex action.
| QUOTE |
| 5. True, but while he's wasting his complex actions to counterspell 3 sustained foci, he's getting pummled with stunbolt or boiled with ball lightning. |
No. Counterspelling rarely makes any sense in a meat confrontation; you're better off trying to kill or neutralize him directly. If you need to counterspell some defense to do that first, you've already got all kinds of problems. The most common counterspelling will be done by astrally projecting mages on astral patrol, whose functions are to manifest and guide physical sec forces, command spirits to materialize and attack, and counterspell sustained/quickened spells on the opposition that is too busy dodging bullets/spirits to astrally perceive/project themselves and fight you directly. Although if they do, great - hit him with a manabolt from ambush with the action you've been holding in case he went astral and became vulnerable.
Also, it should rarely take more than a couple of complex actions to counterspell a Force 3 spell, even for a 6-8 dice mage. Astrally projecting mages have 3 IP per turn, so in two turns even a bad sec mage will have wiped your spells out, albeit at the cost of some drain if they were particularly high DV spells.
the spell description states that you can adjust the area of the spell just like any other area spell.
I too would see the opposition sending in astral projecting mages. They would take out the foci, if they had them, spirits would be ordered about.
If your mage even went to astral perception to defend his foci, he would open himself up to the astral mages, and still be targetted by the mundane sammies.
If your mage even went to astral perception to defend his foci, he would open himself up to the astral mages, and still be targetted by the mundane sammies.
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 10 2006, 12:56 PM) |
| I think you misunderstood...those are all force 3 foci. I numbered them 1, 2, 3 to tell them apart. So each spell is at force 3. Likewise, my point was that a mage using magic would be more effective than a street sam, and that an adept could accomplish the exact same thing as a sam. |
Okay. I did misunderstand you numbering the foci and took them to be their forces. That gives you an extra point of ballistic and a couple more points on the physical barrier. I have to say though, that it also costs you an additional 30,000
and bonding costs (9BP in total) for not much in return. I still don't see how you think Physical Barrier is worth your time, though, even at Force 3.As to the mage being more effective than a Street Samurai, then we're at cross-purposes. Hyzmarca's build and mine coming, are intended to duplicate what a Samurai can do with a mage character. This is because it's the only true way of showing that a Samurai is obsolete. It's not sufficient to say that in abstraction the mage may deal more damage, because they are advantaged and disadvantaged differently in different situations. To that end, they complement each other. I've given several examples of their differences in my last post.
Commenting on your replies to others by the way, I agree with you on background count. At least personally I regard it as a rare thing and not a toy for GMs to reign in powerful players when they're getting too much limelight. I still maintain that your ideas about spirit summoning are a bit off. Summoning Force 12 Water spirit = Character Death. And please never try to bind one. I think you may have been playing under a lax GM. They're balanced under normal restrictions.
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 10 2006, 01:50 PM) |
| the spell description states that you can adjust the area of the spell just like any other area spell. |
That's entirely nonresponsive to my critiques.
I can't identify an area of effect spell that is castable on a target that can move; they are all cast on a point in space and radiate around that point to effect the area/targets within a given radius of that target point. Note that Detection spells are not area of effect - they effect a specific target and (some of them) provide a ranged detection radius, but it's not the same thing.
SR4 pg. 173:
| QUOTE |
| Area Spells: Some spells target areas or points in space... |
You can shrink the radius, but it's still fixed to a point in space or area, not a person who moves the effect around with him. Even if you could, what happens if you try to duck or fall down? Your Physical Barrier dome would "hold you up." That's clearly ridiculous even if it wasn't already contrary to the rules.
Okay. The intention of this build is to attempt to replicate a samurai's capability with a magician. I think the only way to say a Samurai is obsolete is if this can be done without introducing absurd weaknesses. I think the below is a pretty valiant effort but some of you aren't going to like it. 
I haven't bothered statting out every last detail. I even had 2BP left over that can account for some miscellaneous holes in the equipment list that I couldn't be bothered filling out.
Anyway, my conclusion is that the Samurai is definitely not obsolete.
I haven't bothered statting out every last detail. I even had 2BP left over that can account for some miscellaneous holes in the equipment list that I couldn't be bothered filling out.Anyway, my conclusion is that the Samurai is definitely not obsolete.
| QUOTE |
Nano Metatype : Dwarf Magician Tradition: Voodoo. Attributes Body: 4 Agility: 5 Reaction: 5 Strength: 3 Charisma: 5 Intuition: 2 Logic: 1 Willpower: 5 Edge: 1 Magic: 5 Initiative: 7 Essence: 6 Skills Spellcasting (Detection) : 6 Summoning (Guardian) : 5 Binding (Guardian): 2 Perception : 2 Infiltration: 3 Spells Increase Reflexes Analyse Device Equipment Sustaining Focus (Rating 3) Summoning Focus (Rating 3) Weapon Focus (Rating 3) Sustaining Focus (Rating 3) Ares Predator IV AK-97 Full Body Armour |
Well I expect most of you can see how this works. Our deranged little cultist summons up a Guardian spirit on the fly (to keep costs down) and commands it to possess him and attack. I would recommend a force 5 as the standard tactic as this will not normally result in summoning damage and allows for a spirit with a firearms skill if desired (they already have Blades). This would transform him into a minature demon of combat with Bod 9, Agility 10, Reaction 10 Strength 8. And Blades / Automatics at 5. He gets hardened immunity to normal weapons of 10 just to round things out.
Given that this build already meets needed requirements, Nano is free to spend additional karma on skills if desired, just like the Samurai. Though Initiation and Channelling are likely to be the first port of call.
Is it a good build? Not ideal. It takes a complex action to get going without a pre-prepared spirit (which we're avoiding to compete with the Samurai's low operating costs). Additionally, until you get channelling, many GMs will take control of your character away while possessed. He's still a tough critter without possession, though you'd need to drop an attribute somewhere to get some basic skills. In comparison to the Samurai, there are still some odd differences, e.g. Wards, but I think this is as close to replicating the Samurai as a magician can get. The multiple sustaining focus Increase Attribute & Reflexes route is just too BP-expensive. In some ways this build is actually better than a Samurai but trades some consistency for more power. It's nice to have the option to summon a bigger and badder spirit if needed too.
| QUOTE (Mistwalker) |
| I too would see the opposition sending in astral projecting mages. They would take out the foci, if they had them, spirits would be ordered about. If your mage even went to astral perception to defend his foci, he would open himself up to the astral mages, and still be targetted by the mundane sammies. |
Because there are magical counters to the magician doesn't mean that the original hypothesis is wrong ( A magician can do everything a samurai can ). A samurai can do nothing to strike back at astral mages who in your example summon spirits to attack. Even though it is difficult, the mage actually does have a chance of hitting back so if anything your example makes JonathanC's point.
And there are specific problems that a Samurai could face such as hacked cyberware, detection by cyberware scanners and probably some others.
The issue isn't whether you can take out JonathanC's character (a GM can always do that), but if the magician compares favourably to the samurai.
What type of action is possession, and does the spirit have to manifest? If so, it could take quite a while to get going:
Round 1: summon spirit
Round 2: order spirit, spirit materializes, loses remaining actions
Round 3: spirit possesses
Depending on the spirit's init and how possession works, he may get to attack on round 3.
Round 1: summon spirit
Round 2: order spirit, spirit materializes, loses remaining actions
Round 3: spirit possesses
Depending on the spirit's init and how possession works, he may get to attack on round 3.
Ork - "Samurai Killer": Mage Build, 399 BP (4.5k unspent)
Any Tradition w/ Drain = Int + Wil
Mentor Spirit - Any Spirit w/ +2 to Combat Spells
Race: BP 20
Core Attribute: 200
Bod: 7 (30)
Agi: 5 (40)
Rea: 2 (5, +3 from Sustaining Focus) (10)
Str: 3 (0)
Cha: 2 (20)
Log: 3 (20)
Int: 5 (40)
Wil: 5 (40)
Ini: 7 (12, 3 Passes)
Special Attributes: 60
Magic: 5 (4) (40) BP
Edge: 1 (10) BP
Essence: 5.1
Skills: 72
Spell Casting: 6 - 24 BP
-Combat Spells - 2 BP
Summoning: 2 - 8 BP
Binding: 2 - 8 BP
Infiltration: 1 - 8 BP
-Auditory - 2 BP
Perception: 1 - 4 BP
-Ultrasound - 2 BP
Dodge: 3 - 12 BP
-Ranged - 2 BP
Qualities: Net 20 Additional BP
Magician - 15 BP
Mentor Spirit - 5 BP
SINner - 10 BP
Simsense Vertigo - 10 BP
Uncouth - 20 BP
Spells: 18 BP
Mob Control
Increase Attribute (Reaction)
Increase Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Stunbolt
Power Ball
Foci: 33 BP + 11 BP (Bonding) = 44 BP
Sustaining Focus (Armor) - Force 3 - 45k - 9 BP
Sustaining Focus (Increase Reaction) - Force 3 - 45k - 9 BP
Sustaining Focus (Increase Reflexes) - Force 3 - 45k 9 BP
Cyberware: 20.5k, 5 BP (4.5 Unspent)
Rating 3 Cybereye System - 0.4 Essence (1.0k)
-Flare Compensation (.75k)
-Low-Light Vision (1.0k)
-Thermographic (1.0k)
-Ultrasound Sensor (6.0k)
-Vision Enhancement - 2 - (4.5k)
-Vision Magnification - (1k)
---Included: Eye Recording Unit
---Included: Image Link
Dermal Plating - 0.5 Essence (5k)
Final Combat Related Stats:
Initiative: 12 - 3IP
Damage Soak: 19 Base Dice w/ Ballistic, 17 Base Dice / Impact.
---Armor Jacket: (8/6)
-Dermal Plating: (1/1)
-Armor Spell: (3/3)
---Body: 7
Perception: 8 (10 / Ultrasound)
Stealth, Visual: Improved Invisibility
Stealth, Auditory: 8
Stunbolt/Manaball: 6 + 2 + 2 + 4 + X = 14 + X Dice
-X Dice added to rolls using the 'Aid Sorery' spirit power. Usually between 1-3 dice, as template has minimal Conjuring Abilities.
Drain Dice: 5 + 5 = 10 Dice
Tactics: The 'Samurai Killer' Combat Mage Archetype will ideally ambush Samurai by using it's combined Auditory based Stealth skills w/ Improved Invisibility - Once Combat is engaged, Improved Invisibility may optionally be dropped to free up 2 dice, as no sustaining Foci is included.
Ideally, the 'Samurai Killer' Mage will encounter a group of Samurai, will be able to employ his Area Effect Control Actions Spell, force them all embarressingly out of cover, into a nice condensed area, and then fry them all with a single Manaball. A low level Spirit summoned prior to the encounter will be used to augment spells. However, he is just as effective using his overcasted Stunbolt spell on a single target, to dispatch at will, once they've been disabled.
Optional Tweaks - Given the huge amounts of Armor available to this template, the liklihood of receiving physical damage in combat is minimal, short of dead-on concentrated autofire. A thrifty Awakened Player may include a form of Pain Tolerance to allow for physical drain overcasting to be tracked seperately from Stun wounds to minimize cumulative penalties, and overcast on principle. Also, Heal hasn't been included, and neither has some of the more essential items to flesh out a character - Players without a mind to include cyberware can ditch the utility provided, bump Magic back up to 5, and adjust accordingly, possibly reinvesting in the PC's grimoire.
Any Tradition w/ Drain = Int + Wil
Mentor Spirit - Any Spirit w/ +2 to Combat Spells
Race: BP 20
Core Attribute: 200
Bod: 7 (30)
Agi: 5 (40)
Rea: 2 (5, +3 from Sustaining Focus) (10)
Str: 3 (0)
Cha: 2 (20)
Log: 3 (20)
Int: 5 (40)
Wil: 5 (40)
Ini: 7 (12, 3 Passes)
Special Attributes: 60
Magic: 5 (4) (40) BP
Edge: 1 (10) BP
Essence: 5.1
Skills: 72
Spell Casting: 6 - 24 BP
-Combat Spells - 2 BP
Summoning: 2 - 8 BP
Binding: 2 - 8 BP
Infiltration: 1 - 8 BP
-Auditory - 2 BP
Perception: 1 - 4 BP
-Ultrasound - 2 BP
Dodge: 3 - 12 BP
-Ranged - 2 BP
Qualities: Net 20 Additional BP
Magician - 15 BP
Mentor Spirit - 5 BP
SINner - 10 BP
Simsense Vertigo - 10 BP
Uncouth - 20 BP
Spells: 18 BP
Mob Control
Increase Attribute (Reaction)
Increase Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Stunbolt
Power Ball
Foci: 33 BP + 11 BP (Bonding) = 44 BP
Sustaining Focus (Armor) - Force 3 - 45k - 9 BP
Sustaining Focus (Increase Reaction) - Force 3 - 45k - 9 BP
Sustaining Focus (Increase Reflexes) - Force 3 - 45k 9 BP
Cyberware: 20.5k, 5 BP (4.5 Unspent)
Rating 3 Cybereye System - 0.4 Essence (1.0k)
-Flare Compensation (.75k)
-Low-Light Vision (1.0k)
-Thermographic (1.0k)
-Ultrasound Sensor (6.0k)
-Vision Enhancement - 2 - (4.5k)
-Vision Magnification - (1k)
---Included: Eye Recording Unit
---Included: Image Link
Dermal Plating - 0.5 Essence (5k)
Final Combat Related Stats:
Initiative: 12 - 3IP
Damage Soak: 19 Base Dice w/ Ballistic, 17 Base Dice / Impact.
---Armor Jacket: (8/6)
-Dermal Plating: (1/1)
-Armor Spell: (3/3)
---Body: 7
Perception: 8 (10 / Ultrasound)
Stealth, Visual: Improved Invisibility
Stealth, Auditory: 8
Stunbolt/Manaball: 6 + 2 + 2 + 4 + X = 14 + X Dice
-X Dice added to rolls using the 'Aid Sorery' spirit power. Usually between 1-3 dice, as template has minimal Conjuring Abilities.
Drain Dice: 5 + 5 = 10 Dice
Tactics: The 'Samurai Killer' Combat Mage Archetype will ideally ambush Samurai by using it's combined Auditory based Stealth skills w/ Improved Invisibility - Once Combat is engaged, Improved Invisibility may optionally be dropped to free up 2 dice, as no sustaining Foci is included.
Ideally, the 'Samurai Killer' Mage will encounter a group of Samurai, will be able to employ his Area Effect Control Actions Spell, force them all embarressingly out of cover, into a nice condensed area, and then fry them all with a single Manaball. A low level Spirit summoned prior to the encounter will be used to augment spells. However, he is just as effective using his overcasted Stunbolt spell on a single target, to dispatch at will, once they've been disabled.
Optional Tweaks - Given the huge amounts of Armor available to this template, the liklihood of receiving physical damage in combat is minimal, short of dead-on concentrated autofire. A thrifty Awakened Player may include a form of Pain Tolerance to allow for physical drain overcasting to be tracked seperately from Stun wounds to minimize cumulative penalties, and overcast on principle. Also, Heal hasn't been included, and neither has some of the more essential items to flesh out a character - Players without a mind to include cyberware can ditch the utility provided, bump Magic back up to 5, and adjust accordingly, possibly reinvesting in the PC's grimoire.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| Because there are magical counters to the magician doesn't mean that the original hypothesis is wrong ( A magician can do everything a samurai can ). |
The whole conversation's kind of silly -- it really boils down to how you define "everything a samurai can do."
Do you mean something as basic as "kill motherfuckers" as the entirety of a street sammie's job? In that case, sure. A mage can do that. In much the same vein, then a D&D mage can do "everything a fighter can do."
There's always the Drain issue (as long as you pack enough ammo, you can fire bursts from an assault rifle all day long without taking any stun damage), just like mages run out of spells in D&D, and occasionally background count (guns don't care about the emotional state of the people around them, much less the history of the room they're in) -- but in the short term, looking at any single given attack roll, sure. A mage can kill motherfuckers, too.
But can a mage take a hit the way a sammie can, and keep on killing motherfuckers? Can a mage kill motherfuckers in melee combat as well as he can at range? Can a mage go first, reliably, in combat, in order to kill motherfuckers? Does your average mage have the knowledge skills and contacts (usefull outside of combat to set up the killing of motherfuckers) that your average sammie does?
I'd say probably "yes" to any one, maybe two of the above -- but with a starting character, probably not, and certainly not to all of the above (while still being a competent mage). "Street Samurai," just like in-game, can mean a lot of things, above and beyond the "killer motherfuckers" basic job description. There's a niche on a given team that's filled by the chromed (or sometimes even not-so-chromed) gunbunny, that isn't filled by your average bookish mage, in your standard Shadowrun group.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| What type of action is possession, and does the spirit have to manifest? If so, it could take quite a while to get going: Round 1: summon spirit Round 2: order spirit, spirit materializes, loses remaining actions Round 3: spirit possesses Depending on the spirit's init and how possession works, he may get to attack on round 3. |
A spirit does not need to manifest to enact a possession. Possession is a substitution for the Manifestation power that spirits must have instead when summoned by certain traditions. It is a complex action.
So the sequence would probably be
Phase 1: Summon Spirit.
Phase 2: Command Spirit + Additional Simple Action
Phase 3: Spirit Possesses.
Nano has 3IP so that's doable in a round. As I said, this was my best shot at duplicating a samurai with a magician. You should note that I did mention the time to get going in my post, so this isn't news. He isn't exactly weak during the first round, so he should survive and there are other options too. For a start, he's not likely to be walking round a site without a spirit summoned and on standby so in practice it's only Simple + Complex. He should be in action by the end of the turn.
I'm not holding this character up as an unbeatable build (he's a starting character forgoodnesssake). I'm using him as a working test to see if magicians make samurai obsolete as the original poster has asked.
One of the largest problems I personally have is that there is very little a mundane can do -exclusively- better than an Awakened Character. Essentially by your own admission, you said that an Awakened Character might surpass a Mundane in several areas, while the Mundane will have more general utility.
Well, what does that mean, then, when you have 2 Awakened Characters compared to 2 Mundanes? 5 to 5? 10 to 10? Does that mean that each of the awakened Character's will surpass the Mundanes in an area of Expertise, while the Mundane's will just perform averagely in all group tasks?
Are Mundanes, when compared to an equal number of Awakened Characters, just shit ouf of luck, because there will always be an awakened character out there, somewhere, who does his knack better than he can?
Well, what does that mean, then, when you have 2 Awakened Characters compared to 2 Mundanes? 5 to 5? 10 to 10? Does that mean that each of the awakened Character's will surpass the Mundanes in an area of Expertise, while the Mundane's will just perform averagely in all group tasks?
Are Mundanes, when compared to an equal number of Awakened Characters, just shit ouf of luck, because there will always be an awakened character out there, somewhere, who does his knack better than he can?
I don't think anyone who spends an entire combat turn preparing for a fight is going to be replacing street samurai any time soon, even if he is incredibly beefy after his buff sequence is complete.
| QUOTE (Critias @ Sep 10 2006, 03:21 PM) | ||
The whole conversation's kind of silly -- it really boils down to how you define "everything a samurai can do." Do you mean something as basic as "kill motherfuckers" as the entirety of a street sammie's job? |
No. A mage can kill plenty of motherfuckers. It might be said that the mage is the motherfucking motherfucker of motherfucker killers. Well, it might be said...
I've taken this to be slightly more detailed as I said in one of my earlier posts. A samurai has several advantages and is more appropriate to certain situations. That's why for all their cruncy goodness, builds like Steak and Spirit's "Samurai Killer" miss the point as they don't account for these difference. The endless ammo of the Samurai for just one example.
I've done my best shot at duplicating a samurai with a magician (and no cyberware I might add) and I've still got some advantages and disadvantages which means that they are different. And so long as they are different there are circumstances where each will be superior to the other and so they complement each other. A team should have both.
This was my opinion at the beginning but as people asked to have something plascrete to discuss, I thought I'd have a shot at it. I like Steak and Spirit's build but it still doesn't quite replace a samurai. either. They ain't obsolete.
(Well not until you've been playing for a while and the magician's open-ended development and array of cool options makes your Samurai sick as he plows excess karma into Cajun Cooking (Spices) skill. )
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 10 2006, 01:05 PM) |
| 1. I'm almost certain I had enough cash left to buy some thermographic goggles/contact lenses. Fair enough on the background count, but from my reading of the book, it's not as common as many people think. It's not like you get BC everytime a gangbanger gets shot on a corner. It has to be a sustained emotional turmoil or something in a specific area. 2. Physical Barrier does indeed move with you. So does Mana Barrier. You're thinking of wards that are immobile (at least in relation to their structural enclosement). 3. I was talking more about defense from other mages, in this case. But Concealment takes dice from the people trying to perceive you. How many people have a perception dice pool of 6? 8? He could technically conjure a force 12 water spirit. Who's going to have dice left after that Concealment power? No dice = no rolls, so he could be walking around with bells on and go undetected. 4. Point. This is also why I said the build was hasty, and could use a well-chosen Mentor Spirit, and some other tweaks. Personally, I would go Shaman, lower the logic, and pour it into Intuition. 5. True, but while he's wasting his complex actions to counterspell 3 sustained foci, he's getting pummled with stunbolt or boiled with ball lightning. In conclusion, yes, that mage has a lot of flaws. It was about 1:30am when I wrote those stats, and I had been awake since that morning, fairly early. I'm sure I can do better, but first, I'm going to drum up an adept, as I think they are more closely approximating the combat prowess of a street sam. I would still rather have a combat mage in most situations though. |
1 - First of all, a mage can't cast through a thermo goggle. You'd need cyber eyes. If you don't pay for it with essence, you can't use an electronically enhanced image to cast. That's why there is a legion of mage with cybereyes. Otherwise, what would be the point?
Your current combat mage is easy to stymie in the sense that you can't cast on what you can't see and with no cyber/bio enhancement and no perception skill, he doesn't see that well.
Secondly, background count is very common. You could be exposed to a background rating 2 simply by attending a big rock concert!
Heck, the scene of a violent crime or passionate love affair can be rating 1.
Whenever you are on the turf of a magical foe, you can expect some background count. Worse, it's background count that helps him but hinders you.
So basically while under perfect circumstances he can mow down opponents, under many situation he can end up being unable to even affect his opponent. It's not that uncommon to have -6 because of cover and lighting which leaves you with 6 dice. If your opponent use edge, he'll probably beat you even if you use it too (edge 2!).
Meanwhile a street sam firing on automatic fire will probably hit you hard on return fire.
2 - I haven't seen those reference that a barrier can be mobile. I really don't believe it can. Or else why the heck would you need the spell armor for?
3 - Again, YOU roll no dice. All the targey has to do even if reduced to zero dice is use edge. Even if you oppose with your own edge you'll lose most of the time because you only have edg 2.
5 - Counter spelling is for astral mage. If you go on astral perception they'll fry you since perceiving cost you an action so they'll get their next before yours (3 IP for astral mage).
---
The most important factor is that this guy is not a good runner. He does only one thing well and even then he can stymied in many ways.
All he does is cast offensive spell fast. I wouldn't trade him for anyone on my current group.
We seem to be going around in circles here
Sammies vs Mage Sammies
There are alwyas some things that a mundane will do better/be more at ease with
like the Matrix, rigging, etc...
I don't believe that sammies are obsolete
I won't even go anywhere near 1 enhanced mage vs 9 sammies (1 in ten are awakened) odds.
Sammies vs Mage Sammies
There are alwyas some things that a mundane will do better/be more at ease with
like the Matrix, rigging, etc...
I don't believe that sammies are obsolete
I won't even go anywhere near 1 enhanced mage vs 9 sammies (1 in ten are awakened) odds.
| QUOTE |
| I won't even go anywhere near 1 enhanced mage vs 9 sammies (1 in ten are awakened) odds. |
If I recall, third edition Shadowrun had 1,000,000 yen and Full Magician on the same priority tier. Seems to suggest to me that a fully decked out Samurai is just as rare as a Fully Awakened Spellslinger.
You must be confusing those odds with a "1 Awakened Character vs 9 Modified to Ganger Equivalent Mundanes, odds."
| QUOTE (Charon @ Sep 10 2006, 03:46 PM) |
| 2 - I haven't seen those reference that a barrier can be mobile. I really don't believe it can. Or else why the heck would you need the spell armor for? |
| QUOTE (SR4 @ pg. 174) |
If an area-effect spell is sustained, the affected area may be moved with a Complex Action, as long as it remains within line of sight. Characters who “drop out” of the affected area are no longer If an area-effect spell is sustained, the affected area may be moved with a Complex Action, as long as it remains within line of sight. |
It can be moved. You need the armour spell because (a) you don't want to be making a complex action to move in the middle of a fight and, to my mind slightly more important but not addressed by JonathanC yet even though I've raised this twice (b) It's frigging 2m wide at it's smallest! Unless all your shadowruns take place in carparks and fields, I cannot imagine how anyone thinks they can carry this around with them as a defensive measure. Yes, you can cast through it so you can bunker down but do you really expect security guards to keep running up to you while you sit there immobile?
I agree that the Sammie vs. Mage debate is old and pointless, but that's not the debate that is going on here. It's to what extent the roles of the two in a team will overlap and if so, does the mage have an advantage?
| QUOTE |
| Well I expect most of you can see how this works. Our deranged little cultist summons up a Guardian spirit on the fly (to keep costs down) and commands it to possess him and attack. I would recommend a force 5 as the standard tactic as this will not normally result in summoning damage and allows for a spirit with a firearms skill if desired (they already have Blades). This would transform him into a minature demon of combat with Bod 9, Agility 10, Reaction 10 Strength 8. And Blades / Automatics at 5. He gets hardened immunity to normal weapons of 10 just to round things out. |
I think all you've managed to do was to illustrate how the Rules of Summoning Spirits and Spirit ablilities are Broken instead of how Sams are obsolete.
----------------Metalsmth-----------------^^^^^
Edge will make all the difference. Edge is Life.
I also want to point out Sams will always be able to buy up their ablilites with Karma or Money and do it more cheaply than Adepts or Mages can. ie Muscle Toner, orthoskin, Enhanced Perception, Expanded Perception ect.... What does the mage do with all his Money? The costs of bonding to Foci are karma prohibitive.
This is not to say that Sams are universaly better in all things, but they are remarkably better. They dont need to paint themselves into a corner and be a "One Trick Pony"
I also want to point out Sams will always be able to buy up their ablilites with Karma or Money and do it more cheaply than Adepts or Mages can. ie Muscle Toner, orthoskin, Enhanced Perception, Expanded Perception ect.... What does the mage do with all his Money? The costs of bonding to Foci are karma prohibitive.
This is not to say that Sams are universaly better in all things, but they are remarkably better. They dont need to paint themselves into a corner and be a "One Trick Pony"
| QUOTE |
| Tactics: The 'Samurai Killer' Combat Mage Archetype will ideally ambush Samurai by using it's combined Auditory based Stealth skills w/ Improved Invisibility - |
What Auditory Stealth?
Bam-Bam the Sam Reaction 9, Intuition 5, Agility 7
Stats: 200, Gear: 50, 6-Edge: 40 Skills: 110 Positive or Neg Qualities: Who needs em!
Sam Sees mage with his Ultrasound (12 Perception). Sam Spends Edge to go first.
Simple Action:
Shoots a Frag Grenade at the Mage. Rolls Agility 7 Throwing 6 (or Gunnery 6) Grenade Spec = 15 Dice avg 5 Successes. Spends Edge re-rolls 10 dice = 3 more success = 12P with 8 successes. Against the Impact Armor 19 and Reaction 4 = 7 Successes 13 wounds.
Simple Action: Same as above. 12 more wounds.
Initiative Pass 2
Lights Cigar on Dead Mage. Edge Spent 3
Optional Gunfire:
Ares Alpha with 2xEX rounds 8P -3 Armor Long Narrow Burst 13P 8 Successes vs 21 (16 Ballistic and 5 Reaction) Dice to resist. Net Damge 14
Short Burst net result 11P
Thinking about Dodging? Don't. Dodging means you just get to be tired when you die.
If there was any hanky-panky with Spirits keep in mind, the Mage uses the Summoning skill to bring allies, the Sam uses his Street Etiquette to "Summon" allies.
If your entire plan is to "Surprise" someone you should expect failure. Your mage's surprise initiative is 12 + 6 "Ambush" Dice. The Sams are 14 + Edge Dice (or ReRolls or flat out spending Edge to go first)
---------METALSMITH------------^^^^
Bam-Bam the Sam Reaction 9, Intuition 5, Agility 7
Stats: 200, Gear: 50, 6-Edge: 40 Skills: 110 Positive or Neg Qualities: Who needs em!
Sam Sees mage with his Ultrasound (12 Perception). Sam Spends Edge to go first.
Simple Action:
Shoots a Frag Grenade at the Mage. Rolls Agility 7 Throwing 6 (or Gunnery 6) Grenade Spec = 15 Dice avg 5 Successes. Spends Edge re-rolls 10 dice = 3 more success = 12P with 8 successes. Against the Impact Armor 19 and Reaction 4 = 7 Successes 13 wounds.
Simple Action: Same as above. 12 more wounds.
Initiative Pass 2
Lights Cigar on Dead Mage. Edge Spent 3
Optional Gunfire:
Ares Alpha with 2xEX rounds 8P -3 Armor Long Narrow Burst 13P 8 Successes vs 21 (16 Ballistic and 5 Reaction) Dice to resist. Net Damge 14
Short Burst net result 11P
Thinking about Dodging? Don't. Dodging means you just get to be tired when you die.
If there was any hanky-panky with Spirits keep in mind, the Mage uses the Summoning skill to bring allies, the Sam uses his Street Etiquette to "Summon" allies.
If your entire plan is to "Surprise" someone you should expect failure. Your mage's surprise initiative is 12 + 6 "Ambush" Dice. The Sams are 14 + Edge Dice (or ReRolls or flat out spending Edge to go first)
---------METALSMITH------------^^^^
On the whole Background Count thing?
As far as I've always seen it (and had it portrayed by nearly every GM I've played with?)?
A background count of zero is the exception, not the norm. That's the kind of count you'd get in your own house with copious use of cleansing and so on. I'd imagine that most neighborhoods would be at least a BGC of 1, due to violence or soul-crushing conformity. And, well. While you're not about to come across a level 5 BGC any time soon in your everyday affairs if you're living in a relatively normal place?
1 to 2 should be the average count, with a couple sprinklings of 0 and 3.
This is just me talking, however, and I get most of my facts out of my butt.
As far as I've always seen it (and had it portrayed by nearly every GM I've played with?)?
A background count of zero is the exception, not the norm. That's the kind of count you'd get in your own house with copious use of cleansing and so on. I'd imagine that most neighborhoods would be at least a BGC of 1, due to violence or soul-crushing conformity. And, well. While you're not about to come across a level 5 BGC any time soon in your everyday affairs if you're living in a relatively normal place?
1 to 2 should be the average count, with a couple sprinklings of 0 and 3.
This is just me talking, however, and I get most of my facts out of my butt.
I hate to point this out, but Nano can't have full body armour out of chargen. Too high availability.
And I'd imagine the average slum area should certainly have at least some background count from all the homeless, or possibly gang violence.
And I'd imagine the average slum area should certainly have at least some background count from all the homeless, or possibly gang violence.
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) | ||
If I recall, third edition Shadowrun had 1,000,000 yen and Full Magician on the same priority tier. Seems to suggest to me that a fully decked out Samurai is just as rare as a Fully Awakened Spellslinger. You must be confusing those odds with a "1 Awakened Character vs 9 Modified to Ganger Equivalent Mundanes, odds." |
Well, in SR4 terms, 15 BP for mage equals 75 000 NuYen. Throw in 12 BP for 4 spells, and 27 BP to get and bond 3 foci at force 3, your total is now 54 BP, dropped down to 50 BP due to rules, for 250 OOO NuYen, and 4 BP left over to add to the firearm skill of your choice.
That can get you a lot of gear and cyberware.
4BP will get you one rank of a firearm skill, which isn't much good to anyone.
But then the 'mage' hasn't spent points on sorcery yet...
so those 4bp are +1 to a firearm skill (equal to the mage spell casting) which is a nice little (even if little) bonus
so those 4bp are +1 to a firearm skill (equal to the mage spell casting) which is a nice little (even if little) bonus
The thing is, you have to look at what each of them can do when they're done being built.
Yes, a mage can only toss one spell per round, compared to two bursts. But you know what? Those bursts are going up against the full ballistic armor of the target. Ballistic armor is the highest rating of armor in any given piece of armor. The mage? At best, you'll get half of your impact vs. an indirect combat spell. And if they hit you direct, it bypasses armor entirely.
When it comes to killing things, mages are king.
Yes, a mage can only toss one spell per round, compared to two bursts. But you know what? Those bursts are going up against the full ballistic armor of the target. Ballistic armor is the highest rating of armor in any given piece of armor. The mage? At best, you'll get half of your impact vs. an indirect combat spell. And if they hit you direct, it bypasses armor entirely.
When it comes to killing things, mages are king.
mages are only the kings of killing if everything goes well for them. if a target is behind cover, or if the mage is wounded, or if any other modifiers can be applied, the mage starts running into issue. a sam has an easier time dealing with modifiers, and they don't have to worry about KOing themselves with a big attack. plus, they can wear more armor without penalty. mages are the kings of killing once. sams can kill all day long.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| When it comes to killing things, mages are king. |
Only when the Mages are casting a Mana-Based Spell.
| QUOTE (Metalsmith) | ||
Only when the Mages are casting a Mana-Based Spell. |
No, their physical spells (powerbolt, powerball) also ignore armor. And indirect combat spells, which are not mana-based, are resisted with half impact armor.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| mages are only the kings of killing if everything goes well for them. if a target is behind cover, or if the mage is wounded, or if any other modifiers can be applied, the mage starts running into issue. a sam has an easier time dealing with modifiers, and they don't have to worry about KOing themselves with a big attack. plus, they can wear more armor without penalty. mages are the kings of killing once. sams can kill all day long. |
I've never, in my experience, seen a mage take themselves down that way. I had a mage in my game toss a force 10 ball lightning spell and take only 4 boxes. Even in 3rd ed, I never saw a mage take much, if any, drain damage. Mages can go as long or longer (no reloads) than a street sam.
and the reason you don't see them KO themselves is that they hold back--they worry about KOing (or at least hurting) themselves with big spells.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| and the reason you don't see them KO themselves is that they hold back--they worry about KOing (or at least hurting) themselves with big spells. |
No, they were casting at either maximum force, or in some cases overcasting (the force 10 ball lightning, for example)
and what happened? he took damage. i'm not saying overcasting leads to instant TKO. i'm saying that not being careful with your casting leads to taking damage. i'm also saying that mages are less likely to be able to overcome negative modifiers than street sams.
An optimal sammie build, focused on combat, has the following:
1> Potential one-shot takedowns.
2> Area-effect damage capability.
3> High initiative and multiple initiative passes.
4> Stealth/sniping/ambush capabilities.
5> Able to withstand enemy return fire, usually through a combination of high Reaction/dodge and buffed Body combined with armor.
It is not hard for a mage to have 1, 2, and 4. For 3, they can get a sustaining focus if they need the extra action passes, but they are unlikely to come close to a sammie's high initiative. Number 5 is where they usually aren't as good, although a few buffs such as an armor spell can help them.
I actually think the description of the original combat mage said it best, when it stated that while the combat mage was a lean, mean, combat machine, he was still better off not taking a sammie on head-to-head.
Sammies aren't obsolete, and actually, as someone else said, complement mages well. I think that a team with a good mix of sammies and mages could take out a pure mage or a pure sammie team.
1> Potential one-shot takedowns.
2> Area-effect damage capability.
3> High initiative and multiple initiative passes.
4> Stealth/sniping/ambush capabilities.
5> Able to withstand enemy return fire, usually through a combination of high Reaction/dodge and buffed Body combined with armor.
It is not hard for a mage to have 1, 2, and 4. For 3, they can get a sustaining focus if they need the extra action passes, but they are unlikely to come close to a sammie's high initiative. Number 5 is where they usually aren't as good, although a few buffs such as an armor spell can help them.
I actually think the description of the original combat mage said it best, when it stated that while the combat mage was a lean, mean, combat machine, he was still better off not taking a sammie on head-to-head.
Sammies aren't obsolete, and actually, as someone else said, complement mages well. I think that a team with a good mix of sammies and mages could take out a pure mage or a pure sammie team.
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 11 2006, 12:34 AM) |
| No, their physical spells (powerbolt, powerball) also ignore armor. And indirect combat spells, which are not mana-based, are resisted with half impact armor. |
Pfft!
Spells that target body are more easily resisted than Mana Spells. Bonelacing Bone Density and Race all add to those. Don't forget a higher Body also has a Higher Damage Track. A 15 Body Troll with a platelet factory needs 17 Damage to put him down, and 16 more to kill him.
Ask me about Girder the Troll. He resists Physical Damage with 29 Dice inclusive of an Armor Jacket.
Indirect Combat Spells are a joke. You get to use Reaction to possibly completly Dodge the attack. (and) After Halving the armor and then adding NonConductivity/Fire Resistance/ect back into it, you end up with more dice to resist Damage than if the mage had just shot you with a gun. And then you have to worry about not taking damage from the Drain. Force 5 Lightning Bolt = 5 Stun, Hope you've got 15 dice to resist drain.
Only with Mana Spells are Mages "Kings of Killin"
-----METALSMITH---------^^^^
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits @ Sep 10 2006, 11:07 PM) |
| If I recall, third edition Shadowrun had 1,000,000 yen and Full Magician on the same priority tier. Seems to suggest to me that a fully decked out Samurai is just as rare as a Fully Awakened Spellslinger. |
It only suggests, that a Fully Awakened Spellslinger cannot start the game with 1,000,000¥. That's it, really.
Bye
Thanee
well, let's use some common sense. of all the professional criminals--or professional anythings--that you know, how many of them have a million dollars' worth of personal equipment that they use for their job?
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| Rating 3 Cybereye System - 0.4 Essence (1.0k) -Ultrasound Sensor (6.0k) |
This is not possible. You cannot install the Ultrasound Sensor into a Cybereye.
Not that this is a big problem or anything, just pointing out the lil error.
I also don't think you can specialize in Perception (Ultrasound)... what's that supposed to mean? You can specialize in Perception (Visual), though, which should also count for Ultrasound (thus, it's simply better
).| QUOTE |
| Tactics: The 'Samurai Killer' Combat Mage Archetype will ideally ambush Samurai by using it's combined Auditory based Stealth skills w/ Improved Invisibility - Once Combat is engaged, Improved Invisibility may optionally be dropped to free up 2 dice, as no sustaining Foci is included. |
With 6 dice on auditory stealth (-2 for sustaining Improved Invisibility), that won't exactly be working well against typical 12 dice of auditory perception, I'd wager.
Sorry, no Ambush for Mr Samurai Killer.
OTOH, it's rather likely, that a stealthy Samurai (say... 14 dice on Infiltration (Urban)?) will easily win against the 4 dice (-2 for sustaining) of Perception (Auditory).
That's a +3 bonus on the surprise test for the Sammy, once they both come into view to each other (thanks to Ultrasound); Sammy should already have the higher initiative (or at least the same, since the Samurai Killer does have a pretty good initiative for sure), but with +3 dice, that's likely to be a surprise for the Sammy, not the other way around, on a chance encounter.
I don't think Mr Samurai Killer is going to live through a lot of Samurais... likely he will die on his first attempt.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Metalsmith @ Sep 10 2006, 04:48 PM) |
| I think all you've managed to do was to illustrate how the Rules of Summoning Spirits and Spirit ablilities are Broken instead of how Sams are obsolete. ----------------Metalsmth-----------------^^^^^ |
People's reading comprehension seems to be dropping sharply around here. As I pointed out in my original post and again twice people since - I was not trying to illustrate that Samurai are obsolete, rather the reverse. Nano is as close to duplicating a samurai with a mage as I can get and I'd be interested to see if anyone can get closer.
But I think he's an interesting character. Aside from liking the image of the beserk voodoo dwarf chewing through his opponents with eyes aglow, I think he's verging on playable. He doesn't demonstrate that spirit rules are broken as you claim. In return for that possession ability he has given up servants that can appear at will and accomplish all sorts of munchy goodness. And as James McMurray has pointed out (admittedly after I've pointed out the same thing myself in my original post and also a second time after that so I don't know why he keeps saying this as if it's news), Nano has a definite disadvantage when he can't prepare, e.g. an ambush situation.
There are also other odd situations where he would be at a disadvantage. For example, an enemy mage can attempt to banish the possessing spirit. He becomes a lot more playable after his first 10 karma and he can initiate and gain Channelling. After that, he'd start filling out his spell list and skills and becoming a more rounded mage. If I ever get to play Shadowrun, I might try him out as my PC.
EDIT: cx2 Good point about the full armour. Originally he had an armoured jacket and then I had quite a bit of money and without thinking I swapped in full armour.
| QUOTE |
| Those bursts are going up against the full ballistic armor of the target. |
Only if you use normal ammo. If you want them to use 1/2 impact you can go with stick-n-shock, or you can give them impact+2. Impact + 2 is usually the same as or very close to ballistic, but it comes with +2 DV, which is effectively -6 armor. And of course there's Ex-ex, which negates all but the heaviest of armors and hits harder against unarmored targets.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
Only if you use normal ammo. If you want them to use 1/2 impact you can go with stick-n-shock, or you can give them impact+2. Impact + 2 is usually the same as or very close to ballistic, but it comes with +2 DV, which is effectively -6 armor. And of course there's Ex-ex, which negates all but the heaviest of armors and hits harder against unarmored targets. |
...all of which still involve considerably more armor to go up against than half-impact or no armor at all.
Well, except the one that involves half impact of course.
You're also taking two shots and not suffering drain.
When Arsenal comes out we can expect to see more chemical rounds, splash grenades and squirt guns which would completely ignore armor that isn't chemically sealed.
I'd love to see your charaacter that makes street samurai obsolete rather than just a few flawed theories.
You're also taking two shots and not suffering drain.
When Arsenal comes out we can expect to see more chemical rounds, splash grenades and squirt guns which would completely ignore armor that isn't chemically sealed.
I'd love to see your charaacter that makes street samurai obsolete rather than just a few flawed theories.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Well, except the one that involves half impact of course. You're also taking two shots and not suffering drain. When Arsenal comes out we can expect to see more chemical rounds, splash grenades and squirt guns which would completely ignore armor that isn't chemically sealed. I'd love to see your charaacter that makes street samurai obsolete rather than just a few flawed theories. |
I still say a good combat mage with some sustaining foci is a more reliable and efficient killer than a street sam. And really, making an adept that can match a street sam isn't even something that needs to be proven. PLUS, he won't set off any detectors. He can travel freely, without a fake license.
| QUOTE (JonathanC[/quote) |
| And really, making an adept that can match a street sam isn't even something that needs to be proven. |
untrue. an adept can surpass a street sam in one or two areas, whereas a street sam tends to be pretty competent in multiple areas. i have yet to see an adept that is as versatile as most sams.
We know what you say, but you've failed to prove it. Post a mage for us. And try to make sure that walking through a ward doesn't completely screw him.
Adepts can definitely outshine street samurai in very specific areas (such as gun bunnying), but that doesn't mean street samurai are made obsolete because of them, unless you think that the only thing a street samurai is designed to do is fire his gun. I'd also love to see the adept that makes street sams no longer viable characters.
But given that it's been 6 pages and you've yet to post either I'm guessing you don't plan to.
Adepts can definitely outshine street samurai in very specific areas (such as gun bunnying), but that doesn't mean street samurai are made obsolete because of them, unless you think that the only thing a street samurai is designed to do is fire his gun. I'd also love to see the adept that makes street sams no longer viable characters.
But given that it's been 6 pages and you've yet to post either I'm guessing you don't plan to.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
untrue. an adept can surpass a street sam in one or two areas, whereas a street sam tends to be pretty competent in multiple areas. i have yet to see an adept that is as versatile as most sams. |
Most of that versatility is in non-combat areas. I mean, roleplaying aside, is it really all that important that a street sam can forge katanas?
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| We know what you say, but you've failed to prove it. Post a mage for us. And try to make sure that walking through a ward doesn't completely screw him. Adepts can definitely outshine street samurai in very specific areas (such as gun bunnying), but that doesn't mean street samurai are made obsolete because of them, unless you think that the only thing a street samurai is designed to do is fire his gun. I'd also love to see the adept that makes street sams no longer viable characters. But given that it's been 6 pages and you've yet to post either I'm guessing you don't plan to. |
I will. But the thing is, a ward doesn't totally screw that mage. There are new rules for bypassing wards in a manner that doesn't strip away your spells.
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