Full Version: Are Street Samurai obsolete?
JonathanC is a classist! He hates sams!
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 9 2006, 05:27 AM) | ||
ok, let's assume an intuition of 6. now give -1 for defaulting. add on -4 from smoke. that's 1 dice in your pool. 66.6666666....% of the time, you're screwed. i don't consider that to be particularly great. and this assumes you even have that high of intuition, which only mages that rely on intuition as one of their drain stats are likely to have the BP/karma to spend (or alternately they must spend less BP on their drain stat). and if the target decides to try and use the cover of the smoke to hide (hint: the sammy probably has decent skill, and definitely has good agility), then you're looking at throwing your dice pool of 1 against his dice pool of probably 8+ good luck with that. |
Everybody in my player group (well, almost everybody) has a perception skill of 3 or better. So that's 9 dice, minus 4. 5 dice. Pretty good odds, IMO.
Also, I'd like to point out that I don't hate Sams. The game designers do.
Exactly. Mage with, let's say intuition of 4 on average for a charisma or logic based tradition and no perception has 3 dice after defaulting. Even with no smoke against a sam with no infiltration skill and an agility of 4 that's still quite a risk of failure... and you just blew a simple action to observe in detail.
Most sams should have at least 4 or 5 agility, and infiltratiohn is quite common.
Even against int of 6 defaulting against a sam that's defaulting on infiltration it is by no means guaranteed.
And I could be wrong, but I think the only thing unaffected by thermal smoke is ultrasound... which probably isn't suitable for spellcasting.
Plus the numbers of mages which are likely to have background in security etc would be rather less than sams, purely from a fluff standpoint. By no means unknown, but rather rare. Not all mages in the shadows are likely to be ex spec ops types... now that's not a nice thought, spec ops mages... yuk.
Most sams should have at least 4 or 5 agility, and infiltratiohn is quite common.
Even against int of 6 defaulting against a sam that's defaulting on infiltration it is by no means guaranteed.
And I could be wrong, but I think the only thing unaffected by thermal smoke is ultrasound... which probably isn't suitable for spellcasting.
Plus the numbers of mages which are likely to have background in security etc would be rather less than sams, purely from a fluff standpoint. By no means unknown, but rather rare. Not all mages in the shadows are likely to be ex spec ops types... now that's not a nice thought, spec ops mages... yuk.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| Everybody in my player group (well, almost everybody) has a perception skill of 3 or better. So that's 9 dice, minus 4. 5 dice. Pretty good odds, IMO. Also, I'd like to point out that I don't hate Sams. The game designers do. |
ok then, so now we're looking at the mage having to take skills to make him more like a street sam to be able to compete.
i would say that right there is proof that street sams have their uses. if the mage has to start looking more like a street sam to compete, then obviously the system favors the street sam.
and in any event, that's still 5 dice (i still find it odd that all magicians in your game have high intuition, since it has nothing to do with spellcasting for many traditions) against the sammy's 8+
the sammy still stands a good chance of being undetectable to the magician (assuming they have such a high intuition, which means they have presumably missed out on some worthwhile skills/attributes elsewhere with all the BP they are spending just to be competitive with street sams...)
Well, technically a mage could give that sam a run for his money, IF he has the spells at hand (gasp! more spells!?)
You can design a spell that gives you ultrasound, which would allow the mage to at least ignore that pesky smoke as noted earlier of things unnaffected by it. The sense doesn't count for LOS, however, so the only thing the mage could throw then would be indirect things...like fireballs, lightning bolts, etc.
At this point, the advantage the sammy has is that in order for the mage to keep up this defense, he's sustaining a spell and using a dangerous combat spell to boot - the mage has a limited amount of dice to toss, probably still has a shakey defense, and if you get a good hit, they may lose the ultrasound spell itself, leaving them even more vulnerable again.
To use bad (but what I see as reasonable) example would be the troubles in DnD of fighter vs wizard: Sure, one can turn you into a puddle of melted muck, but the other can hack you into giblets too!
Situation is the key, then opportunity, then plausibility.
You can design a spell that gives you ultrasound, which would allow the mage to at least ignore that pesky smoke as noted earlier of things unnaffected by it. The sense doesn't count for LOS, however, so the only thing the mage could throw then would be indirect things...like fireballs, lightning bolts, etc.
At this point, the advantage the sammy has is that in order for the mage to keep up this defense, he's sustaining a spell and using a dangerous combat spell to boot - the mage has a limited amount of dice to toss, probably still has a shakey defense, and if you get a good hit, they may lose the ultrasound spell itself, leaving them even more vulnerable again.
To use bad (but what I see as reasonable) example would be the troubles in DnD of fighter vs wizard: Sure, one can turn you into a puddle of melted muck, but the other can hack you into giblets too!
Situation is the key, then opportunity, then plausibility.
If you think that magic is much better than cyber (or vice versa) it is probably a good idea to go through the rules again and make sure you are applying all of them.
A couple of the more common mistakes with magic are:
Not applying the visibility penalties as appropriate
Getting the Increased reflexes spell mixed up with the adept version (The differences are important, adept: +1 R +1 IP per level, spell +1I +1 IP per hit beyond the 1st, maxed out at 4)
Heck JC mentioned in the Anti-mage tactics a mage with Incr Reflexes cast on himself at force 3 to give himself +6 reaction, +3IP, which is mixing it up with the 3ed adept power (in 3rd ed Incr Reflexes +3 would increased Initiave dice by 3d6).
A couple of the more common mistakes with magic are:
Not applying the visibility penalties as appropriate
Getting the Increased reflexes spell mixed up with the adept version (The differences are important, adept: +1 R +1 IP per level, spell +1I +1 IP per hit beyond the 1st, maxed out at 4)
Heck JC mentioned in the Anti-mage tactics a mage with Incr Reflexes cast on himself at force 3 to give himself +6 reaction, +3IP, which is mixing it up with the 3ed adept power (in 3rd ed Incr Reflexes +3 would increased Initiave dice by 3d6).
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 9 2006, 08:23 AM) |
| (i still find it odd that all magicians in your game have high intuition, since it has nothing to do with spellcasting for many traditions) |
How so? Intuition is fairly important for magicians...
- Assensing
- Perception
- Initiative
- Astral Reaction
- Astral Initiative
Not really the most unimportant figures, there.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (maeel) |
| IIRC that 200BP limit does not count for magic. But on another note, adepts and mages will lose their effectiveness in areas with high background count or mana warps.. i believe there was an adventure in harlequin, where the runners are attacked on an suborbital flight, in that situation all magic characs are screwed, sammies are not. |
The stat limit does not count for magic? How so? Magic is a stat. So is edge. Please point me to the place where this is said, otherwise you're just assuming to the benefit of magic-users, something they really don't need!
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
| The stat limit does not count for magic? How so? Magic is a stat. So is edge. Please point me to the place where this is said, otherwise you're just assuming to the benefit of magic-users, something they really don't need! |
The 200 bp limit is for "core attributes" (or some phrase like that), and doesn't count Edge or Magic, as per the basic character creation rules. I can't give you a page number (for some reason I can't take my SR4 to work or they get mad), but it's in there. Check the step by step walkthrough bit on creation, where they're buying their attributes.
For that matter, I'm sure you could just do the math on a few of their archetypes, and I bet you'd see that their total attribute cost (counting Magic and Edge) would be higher than 200.
You can spend no more than 200 BP on Physical and Mental Attributes.
Magic, Resonance and Edge are Special Attributes.
Bye
Thanee
Magic, Resonance and Edge are Special Attributes.
Bye
Thanee
p.73 "Players may not spend more than half their total BP on Physical
and Mental attributes"
Magic is neither physical nor mental, but a special attribute. So is edge. And Resonance.
and Mental attributes"
Magic is neither physical nor mental, but a special attribute. So is edge. And Resonance.
Which isn't exactly to a magician's advantage, because what they usually do is spend 200 bp on physical and mental attributes, then 40 more on their Magic. That 40 is subsequently unavailable to buy skills, spells, and resources.
I threw a post up in the 'Is Magic Broken Thread' that may relate to this discussion. Here's the link, rather than spamming you all with a duplicate post.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...pic=14521&st=50
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...pic=14521&st=50
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| Which isn't exactly to a magician's advantage, because what they usually do is spend 200 bp on physical and mental attributes, then 40 more on their Magic. |
Being allowed to spend more points is definitely an advantage, especially compared t the alternative.
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| I threw a post up in the 'Is Magic Broken Thread' that may relate to this discussion. Here's the link, rather than spamming you all with a duplicate post. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...pic=14521&st=50 |
How is it not an advantage? This way they get to have decent (though generally sub-par) physical skills, solid-to-great mental skills, and a solid-to-great Magic and whatever-they-have-left-over Edge.
Compare it to a 200 bp max, total, for all attributes. Intuition, Logic, Willpower, and Magic? That can be your 200 bp right there, just for those four.
| QUOTE (Critias) | ||
How is it not an advantage? This way they get to have decent (though generally sub-par) physical skills, solid-to-great mental skills, and a solid-to-great Magic and whatever-they-have-left-over Edge. Compare it to a 200 bp max, total, for all attributes. Intuition, Logic, Willpower, and Magic? That can be your 200 bp right there, just for those four. |
I think you're quoting the wrong post there. But yes, I agree with you completely, Critias - I think it's pretty well established that attributes are more valuable than skills. Allowing a Magician to build their Magic attribute at the expense of skills is a no-brainer that any Magician would take over the alternative.
Crap. Yeah, sorry. Half my forums put "quote" below the post, half put "quote" above the post. My mistake.
Because you're using up 55 bp to buy the Magician quality and four more points of Magic attribute. This reduces the bp available to buy other things, like spells, and skills (of which the magician needs many), and gear (like foci), and Edge. So the fact that Magic is a special attribute is a double-edged sword.
In fact, a high Magic is a double-edged sword. It lets you cast higher force spells and summon higher force spirits, but those high force tricks come with higher drain, and a high Magic is no help against drain.
The street samurai by comparison will spend those 55 points buying implants, skills, and gear, going a long way to evening him out compared to the magician.
In fact, a high Magic is a double-edged sword. It lets you cast higher force spells and summon higher force spirits, but those high force tricks come with higher drain, and a high Magic is no help against drain.
The street samurai by comparison will spend those 55 points buying implants, skills, and gear, going a long way to evening him out compared to the magician.
You're not force to spend 200BP on physical and mental abilities, you just have the option. More options is not a downside.
Don't take it from me though, take it from me and the other posters that disagree with you.
Don't take it from me though, take it from me and the other posters that disagree with you.
Well, not until you get Centering anyway.
Even then. Initiate grade, and not Magic, adds Centering dice. For low drain and spell defense reasons it can make a lot of sense to pump your initiate grade several times instead of taking a couple of points in Magic.
Yes - Proposing that 'Mages have the ability to either spend BP on magic, -or- spend their BP elsewhere' is not sufficient justification to call it a downside. You may say that 'Mages who spend their BPs in places other than Magic will not be able to use Magic as effectively as Mages who do', but that's a different statement entirely.
But you may not say that 'Giving a Mage a choice between spending BPs on magic, cyberware, gear, or contacts' is really a disadvantage afterall. Because being a Mage costs 15BP. Period. The rest just revolves around what parts of your Mage you want to function better than others.
But you may not say that 'Giving a Mage a choice between spending BPs on magic, cyberware, gear, or contacts' is really a disadvantage afterall. Because being a Mage costs 15BP. Period. The rest just revolves around what parts of your Mage you want to function better than others.
We are arguing remarkably vague things considering that the discussion could be very concrete.
Let's post some starting 400 BP stats for those Mage / Adept / Street Sam and see if there is really no reason to play a street sam.
Personnally I'm not a huge fan of the combat mage trying to be a street sam.
Just to approximate what a Street Sam does he needs to spend a lot of BP that could be better spent elsewhere for the good of the team.
For example, trying to match the speed of a street sam ; you need the increased reflex spell (3 BP), a sustaining focus level 3 (6 BP in cash + 3 BP for binding). That's 12 BP only to match the power of wired 2, which cost only 6.4 BP, except that until you have extended masking it's even less discrete and can be shut down by astrally projecting entities.
So meh. Yes, mage can approximate what a street sam does but with a higher BP cost wich isn't very efficient.
Mage do better with a handful of combat spell and then focusing on spells that give the team options that a street sam never could, instead of trying to be a less BP efficient street sam.
---
So looking at the combat mage archetype, I'm not a big fan. Mind you, he doesn't even have sustaining focus for his buffing spell so it's unlikely he'll boost himself and try to replace a street sam. Of course, you need 9 BP a pop to add sustaining 3 focus so where will you cutback?
He far from outshine the street sam archetype on a pure combat basis. Thankfully he can conjure spirits but he isn't that great at it either.
Anyone care to post a custom combat mage supposed to make a Street Sam obsolete?
---
PS : A lot of the buffing spell are even more efficient if cast on someone else instead of the mage. A mage obessed with buffing himself is not much of a team player and most likely his team would be wiped out by another identical team where the mage is less obessed by his own performance instead of that of the team.
Let's post some starting 400 BP stats for those Mage / Adept / Street Sam and see if there is really no reason to play a street sam.
Personnally I'm not a huge fan of the combat mage trying to be a street sam.
Just to approximate what a Street Sam does he needs to spend a lot of BP that could be better spent elsewhere for the good of the team.
For example, trying to match the speed of a street sam ; you need the increased reflex spell (3 BP), a sustaining focus level 3 (6 BP in cash + 3 BP for binding). That's 12 BP only to match the power of wired 2, which cost only 6.4 BP, except that until you have extended masking it's even less discrete and can be shut down by astrally projecting entities.
So meh. Yes, mage can approximate what a street sam does but with a higher BP cost wich isn't very efficient.
Mage do better with a handful of combat spell and then focusing on spells that give the team options that a street sam never could, instead of trying to be a less BP efficient street sam.
---
So looking at the combat mage archetype, I'm not a big fan. Mind you, he doesn't even have sustaining focus for his buffing spell so it's unlikely he'll boost himself and try to replace a street sam. Of course, you need 9 BP a pop to add sustaining 3 focus so where will you cutback?
He far from outshine the street sam archetype on a pure combat basis. Thankfully he can conjure spirits but he isn't that great at it either.
Anyone care to post a custom combat mage supposed to make a Street Sam obsolete?
---
PS : A lot of the buffing spell are even more efficient if cast on someone else instead of the mage. A mage obessed with buffing himself is not much of a team player and most likely his team would be wiped out by another identical team where the mage is less obessed by his own performance instead of that of the team.
| QUOTE (Charon @ Sep 9 2006, 01:18 PM) |
| For example, trying to match the speed of a street sam ; you need the increased reflex spell (3 BP), a sustaining focus level 3 (6 BP in cash + 3 BP for binding). That's 12 BP only to match the power of wired 2, which cost only 6.4 BP, except that until you have extended masking it's even less discrete and can be shut down by astrally projecting entities. |
And as Ranneko pointed out, the spell adds to initiative, not reaction. So even with the extra cost and ignoring it's off switch, it's less effective than wired or SB.
| QUOTE |
| Anyone care to post a custom combat mage supposed to make a Street Sam obsolete? |
I'd like to see JonathanC post his ideal, since he's the one leading the claim.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon) | ||||
And as Ranneko pointed out, the spell adds to initiative, not reaction. So even with the extra cost and ignoring it's off switch, it's less effective than wired or SB.
I'd like to see JonathanC post his ideal, since he's the one leading the claim. |
The fact that it adds to initiative directly rather than adding to reaction is actually a good thing. A mage can combine Increased Reflexes with reaction enhancers for even more initiative dice while the Wired Reflexes's initiave boost is limited by the augmented reaction cap. Reaction enhancers 3 only cost .9 essence. so a magician can reasonably have +3Reaction +3 initiative +3IP for less than a +3 initiative for less than what +3 Reaction + 3IP would cost a samurai or an adept.
Query: Does the spell add to your initiative attribute, or your initiative score? I'm guessing attribute, but I don't have a rules reference to back up this belief.
| QUOTE (prionic6) |
| p.73 "Players may not spend more than half their total BP on Physical and Mental attributes" Magic is neither physical nor mental, but a special attribute. So is edge. And Resonance. |
Thank you for pointing out my error. I must have missed the part of "physical and mental attributes".
That said I now see magic as even better than before.... man perhaps I should use 200bp limit on ALL attributes? Would that balance anything?
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||||
The fact that it adds to initiative directly rather than adding to reaction is actually a good thing. A mage can combine Increased Reflexes with reaction enhancers for even more initiative dice while the Wired Reflexes's initiave boost is limited by the augmented reaction cap. Reaction enhancers 3 only cost .9 essence. so a magician can reasonably have +3Reaction +3 initiative +3IP for less than a +3 initiative for less than what +3 Reaction + 3IP would cost a samurai or an adept. |
He can't get +3 IP on a sustaining focus as a starting character since it takes a level 4 sustaining focus which is availability 20.
Beside, go ahead and design that 400 BP super combat mage that does the street sam game better than the street sam.
We can't just argue on air. Show us.
Metatype : Elf
Mystical Adept
Attributes
Body: 1
Agility: 5
Reaction: 5(
Strength: 1
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 5
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
Edge: 2
Magic: 5 (4)
Initiative: 10(13)
Essence: 5.15
Knowledge Skills
English: N
Active Skills
Spellcasting (Health) : 4
Summoning (Man) : 2
Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers): 5
Counterspelling (Combat) 2
Inflitration (Urban) : 1
Perception (Visual) : 2
Shadowing (Tailing) : 2
Binding (Man) : 3
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) : 2
Qualities
Mystic Adept
Mentor Spirit: Snake (+1 dice for detection spells, +1 dice for binding tests, -1 die for combat spells)
Low Pain Tollerance
Addiction, Mild: BTLs
Cyberwares
Reaction Enhancers (Rating 2)
Biowares
Synaptic Booster 1
Weapons
ArmTech MGL-12
-Smartgun System, internal
-Airburst link
Ares Antioch-2
-Smartgun System, internal
Ares Viper Slivergun
-Smartgun System, internal
Smart Firing Platform
20 Fragmentation minigrenades
20 felchette rounds
Armors
Chameleon Suit
Chemical Protection (Rating 6)
Thermal Dampening (Rating 6)
Vehicles
Lone Star iBall-Off (Minidrone)
Renraku Stormcloud (Medium)
GM-Nissan Doberman (Medium)
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)
Commlinks
Commlink : Fairlight Caliban
Trodes
Sim Module
Equipments
Sustaining Focus (Rating 3)
Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3)
Glasses
+Smartlink
+Thermographic Vision
+Flare Compensation
Monocle
+Smartlink
+Vision Enhancement (Rating 3)
+Image Link
+Vision Magnification
Spells
Detect Enemies Extended
Chaotic World
Improved Invisibility
Increase Reflexes
Heal
Combat Sense
Powers
Combat Sense (Level 2)
He's got 2 extra BP and some change to spend on something but I can't think of what right not. He can't take hits, that's for sure. He isn't designed to. He's designed to blow things up with grenades. Without his spells he has 13 initiative dice and +1 IP along with 15 surprise dice. With his spells he has 15 initiative dice, +2 IPs, and 20 dice on a surprise test. He also has 13 dodge dice although he lags in the antimagic department with only 5 (+2) resistance dice.
His tradition uses intuition for drain reistance. I could make him even more specialized, suitable for nothing but blowing things up with a grenade launcher, to balance out some of his flaws. At the moment, however, his extras are rather useful. His spirits and his drones both serve as indirect attackers to soften up any opposition.
He isn't better than the samurai. He's just faster, nearly impossible to surprise, and can kill things in one hit, usually. He's also very obvious, very specialzied, and more vulnerable to magic than the average mage.
Mystical Adept
Attributes
Body: 1
Agility: 5
Reaction: 5(
Strength: 1
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 5
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
Edge: 2
Magic: 5 (4)
Initiative: 10(13)
Essence: 5.15
Knowledge Skills
English: N
Active Skills
Spellcasting (Health) : 4
Summoning (Man) : 2
Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers): 5
Counterspelling (Combat) 2
Inflitration (Urban) : 1
Perception (Visual) : 2
Shadowing (Tailing) : 2
Binding (Man) : 3
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) : 2
Qualities
Mystic Adept
Mentor Spirit: Snake (+1 dice for detection spells, +1 dice for binding tests, -1 die for combat spells)
Low Pain Tollerance
Addiction, Mild: BTLs
Cyberwares
Reaction Enhancers (Rating 2)
Biowares
Synaptic Booster 1
Weapons
ArmTech MGL-12
-Smartgun System, internal
-Airburst link
Ares Antioch-2
-Smartgun System, internal
Ares Viper Slivergun
-Smartgun System, internal
Smart Firing Platform
20 Fragmentation minigrenades
20 felchette rounds
Armors
Chameleon Suit
Chemical Protection (Rating 6)
Thermal Dampening (Rating 6)
Vehicles
Lone Star iBall-Off (Minidrone)
Renraku Stormcloud (Medium)
GM-Nissan Doberman (Medium)
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)
Commlinks
Commlink : Fairlight Caliban
Trodes
Sim Module
Equipments
Sustaining Focus (Rating 3)
Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3)
Glasses
+Smartlink
+Thermographic Vision
+Flare Compensation
Monocle
+Smartlink
+Vision Enhancement (Rating 3)
+Image Link
+Vision Magnification
Spells
Detect Enemies Extended
Chaotic World
Improved Invisibility
Increase Reflexes
Heal
Combat Sense
Powers
Combat Sense (Level 2)
He's got 2 extra BP and some change to spend on something but I can't think of what right not. He can't take hits, that's for sure. He isn't designed to. He's designed to blow things up with grenades. Without his spells he has 13 initiative dice and +1 IP along with 15 surprise dice. With his spells he has 15 initiative dice, +2 IPs, and 20 dice on a surprise test. He also has 13 dodge dice although he lags in the antimagic department with only 5 (+2) resistance dice.
His tradition uses intuition for drain reistance. I could make him even more specialized, suitable for nothing but blowing things up with a grenade launcher, to balance out some of his flaws. At the moment, however, his extras are rather useful. His spirits and his drones both serve as indirect attackers to soften up any opposition.
He isn't better than the samurai. He's just faster, nearly impossible to surprise, and can kill things in one hit, usually. He's also very obvious, very specialzied, and more vulnerable to magic than the average mage.
And god help him if he gets hit past his dodge. With Body 1, he'll go down pretty easy, too.
what's that elf adept supposed to show? If you where going for bad characters who won't last past the first round of a fight, you have accomplished that goal well. That character sucks.
| QUOTE (WorkOver) |
| what's that elf adept supposed to show? If you where going for bad characters who won't last past the first round of a fight, you have accomplished that goal well. That character sucks. |
If you think it sucks, than post a better one yourself. Otherwise you just sound like a whiner.
| QUOTE (WorkOver) |
| what's that elf adept supposed to show? If you where going for bad characters who won't last past the first round of a fight, you have accomplished that goal well. That character sucks. |
I don't know. Few of the fights in my games last more than a single round. Fair fights are for suckers, and a sign that you need to improve your ambush techniques.
Here's a Sammie I put together in about 10 mins, based on the same idea. Compare how you think they're balanced....
It was quick and dirty, so don't mock me if there's something not 100%.
Metatype : Ork
Street Samurai
Attributes
Body: 7
Agility: 5 (7)
Reaction: 5 (
Strength: 4 (6)
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
Edge: 2
Initiative: 9 (12)
Init Passes: 3
Essence: .66
Knowledge Skills
English: N
Active Skills
Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers): 6
Inflitration (Urban) : 2
Perception (Visual) : 2
Shadowing (Tailing) : 2
Longarms (Sporting Rifles) : 3
Gynastics (Tumbling): 1
Blades (Axes): 3
Qualities
Home Ground
Magic Resistance 4
Will to Live 1
Addiction, Moderate: BTLs
Sensitive Neural Structure
Allergy, Moderate: Silver
Incompetent (Unarmed)
Incompetent (Escape Artist)
Cyberwares
Wired Reflexes (Rating 2)
Cybereyes Basic System (Rating 2)
+ Flare Compensation
+ Image Link
+ Low-Light Vision
+ Smartlink
+ Thermographic Vision
+ Vision Enhancement (Rating 2)
+ Ultrasound Sensor
Cyberears (Rating 1)
+ Audio Enhancement (Rating 2)
+ Damper
+ Select Sound Filter (Rating 1)
Dermal Plating (Rating 1)
Internal Air Tank
Commlink (4/5)
+ Hot-Sim Module
Reaction Enhancers (Rating 1)
Biowares
Reflex Recorder (Heavy Weapons)
Platelet Factories
Muscle Toner 2
Muscle Augmentation 2
Bone Density 2
Weapons
ArmTech MGL-12
-Smartgun System, internal
-Airburst link
Ares Antioch-2
-Smartgun System, internal
Remington 990
-Gas Vent 3
-Smartgun System, internal
-Sound Suppressor
Ingram White Knight
-Gyro Stablization Unit
Smart Firing Platform
Combat Axe
20 Fragmentation minigrenades
20 felchette rounds
Armors
Chameleon Suit
Thermal Dampening (Rating 6)
Fire Resistance (Rating 2)
Insulation (Rating 2)
Nonconductivity (Rating 2)
Vehicles
Lone Star iBall-Off (Minidrone)
Renraku Stormcloud (Medium)
GM-Nissan Doberman (Medium)
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)
-Weapon Mount: Ingram White Knight
Equipments
Medkit (Rating 6)
Medkit Supplies
Compared to the Mystic Adept, he's got far more dice to roll on his Grenade Launcher (18 total) and can use an LMG too, with 16 dice. He can also actually drive his Bike, and shoot while in it. He's a bit better on his physical skills. He can take far far more damage, and keep going while taking it. He's also more adaptable (internal air tank) and has more armor.
He can't do all the things the mage can beyond combat. But he's got other options.
He's not tweaked out, but I'd put my money on this guy over your elf....
It was quick and dirty, so don't mock me if there's something not 100%.
Metatype : Ork
Street Samurai
Attributes
Body: 7
Agility: 5 (7)
Reaction: 5 (
Strength: 4 (6)
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
Edge: 2
Initiative: 9 (12)
Init Passes: 3
Essence: .66
Knowledge Skills
English: N
Active Skills
Heavy Weapons (Grenade Launchers): 6
Inflitration (Urban) : 2
Perception (Visual) : 2
Shadowing (Tailing) : 2
Longarms (Sporting Rifles) : 3
Gynastics (Tumbling): 1
Blades (Axes): 3
Qualities
Home Ground
Magic Resistance 4
Will to Live 1
Addiction, Moderate: BTLs
Sensitive Neural Structure
Allergy, Moderate: Silver
Incompetent (Unarmed)
Incompetent (Escape Artist)
Cyberwares
Wired Reflexes (Rating 2)
Cybereyes Basic System (Rating 2)
+ Flare Compensation
+ Image Link
+ Low-Light Vision
+ Smartlink
+ Thermographic Vision
+ Vision Enhancement (Rating 2)
+ Ultrasound Sensor
Cyberears (Rating 1)
+ Audio Enhancement (Rating 2)
+ Damper
+ Select Sound Filter (Rating 1)
Dermal Plating (Rating 1)
Internal Air Tank
Commlink (4/5)
+ Hot-Sim Module
Reaction Enhancers (Rating 1)
Biowares
Reflex Recorder (Heavy Weapons)
Platelet Factories
Muscle Toner 2
Muscle Augmentation 2
Bone Density 2
Weapons
ArmTech MGL-12
-Smartgun System, internal
-Airburst link
Ares Antioch-2
-Smartgun System, internal
Remington 990
-Gas Vent 3
-Smartgun System, internal
-Sound Suppressor
Ingram White Knight
-Gyro Stablization Unit
Smart Firing Platform
Combat Axe
20 Fragmentation minigrenades
20 felchette rounds
Armors
Chameleon Suit
Thermal Dampening (Rating 6)
Fire Resistance (Rating 2)
Insulation (Rating 2)
Nonconductivity (Rating 2)
Vehicles
Lone Star iBall-Off (Minidrone)
Renraku Stormcloud (Medium)
GM-Nissan Doberman (Medium)
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)
-Weapon Mount: Ingram White Knight
Equipments
Medkit (Rating 6)
Medkit Supplies
Compared to the Mystic Adept, he's got far more dice to roll on his Grenade Launcher (18 total) and can use an LMG too, with 16 dice. He can also actually drive his Bike, and shoot while in it. He's a bit better on his physical skills. He can take far far more damage, and keep going while taking it. He's also more adaptable (internal air tank) and has more armor.
He can't do all the things the mage can beyond combat. But he's got other options.
He's not tweaked out, but I'd put my money on this guy over your elf....
The mage still has more initiative dice and a better chance on surprise tests.
And does anyone actually need 18 grenade launcher dice? Extra hits don't add to the DV, the just reduce scatter. The point of this build was not to create a mage that is good in all situations. It is to create a mage who is likely to go first.
However, their initiatives are very close so it is possible that the mage will roll badly. Still, the magician can fully twink out his initiative far more than the samurai can and that was the point that I was making, none other. The sacrifices required to make that twink are rather extreme.
And your samurai can aford another point of reaction enhancers. That'll may out his reaction.
And does anyone actually need 18 grenade launcher dice? Extra hits don't add to the DV, the just reduce scatter. The point of this build was not to create a mage that is good in all situations. It is to create a mage who is likely to go first.
However, their initiatives are very close so it is possible that the mage will roll badly. Still, the magician can fully twink out his initiative far more than the samurai can and that was the point that I was making, none other. The sacrifices required to make that twink are rather extreme.
And your samurai can aford another point of reaction enhancers. That'll may out his reaction.
True. So maybe put his spec in LMG, and pick up reaction 2.
I basically used the mage as a guide.
I basically used the mage as a guide.
But the real questions should be: A) Would anyone play a character like these two? and B) would any GM allow them in a game?
hint: The answer should be NO to both.
hint: The answer should be NO to both.
why wouldn't someone play the sammy there? it's not like it's some horrid monstrosity from the D&D character optimisation boards or something... (if you've never seen such a monstrosity, then you should probably avoid looking... those folks can do terrible, terrible things with the rules of D&D).
i mean, i'd probably want to tweak the sammy a little for personal taste, but generally speaking it's a reasonable character.
i mean, i'd probably want to tweak the sammy a little for personal taste, but generally speaking it's a reasonable character.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 9 2006, 09:37 PM) |
| Metatype : Elf Mystical Adept Body: 1 Strength: 1 |
That character probably can't carry the gear you assigned him without penalty, if you ask me. I'd require STR 2 because it looks like more than 10 kg. Especially once you get serious and realize you can't carry a grenade launcher as your sole weapon.
But even if the GM allow you to get by with STR 1, Body 1 won't get you very far ; it currently gives you -2 to Agility and Reaction while wearing your Chameleon armor. Whoopie.
Lorechaser's character is far better, IMO. Not only can he fulfill the same role of ambushing people with a grenade launcher, he is far superior in most other circumstances.
So let's call that test 1. Anyone else care to contribute a mage that will make Street Sams obsolete, as the thread title claims?
I kind of like Hyzmarca's (as an example), because it demonstrates both the major advantage AND the major disadvantage of awakened characters.
The advantage they have is that they can get things like cyberware, bioware, or heavy weapons, but the mundanes can't use things like spells or weapon foci.
The disadvantage is that they have to spend lots of build points on their abilities, so they won't be as buff in some other area(s) at char-gen. In this case, it is a ruinously low Body and Strength. Plus, infringing on sammie turf has made this character less effective in his own area (magic).
The advantage they have is that they can get things like cyberware, bioware, or heavy weapons, but the mundanes can't use things like spells or weapon foci.
The disadvantage is that they have to spend lots of build points on their abilities, so they won't be as buff in some other area(s) at char-gen. In this case, it is a ruinously low Body and Strength. Plus, infringing on sammie turf has made this character less effective in his own area (magic).
| QUOTE (Charon) | ||||||||
He can't get +3 IP on a sustaining focus as a starting character since it takes a level 4 sustaining focus which is availability 20. Beside, go ahead and design that 400 BP super combat mage that does the street sam game better than the street sam. We can't just argue on air. Show us. |
Keep in mind, I'm really tired, so this isn't my best optimization, But here goes:
Metatype : Human
Magician
Attributes
Body: 4
Agility: 1
Reaction: 5
Strength: 2
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 4
Willpower: 5
Edge: 2
Magic: 6
Initiative: 9(12)
Essence: 6
Active Skills
Banishing : 4
Binding : 4
Summoning : 4
Spellcasting : 6
Counterspelling : 4
Dodge (Ranged Combat) : 2
Etiquette (Corporate) : 1
Negative Qualities
Low Pain Tolerance
Uneducated
Gremlins 1
Weapons
Armors
Camouflage Suit
Vehicles
Commlinks
Equipments
Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3)
Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3)
Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3)
Fake SIN (Rating 4)
Spells
Physical Barrier
Armor
Increase Reflexes
Heal
Ball Lightning
Stunball
Stunbolt
Bonded Foci
sust. foci 1
sust. foci 2
sust. foci 3
Now, this could be better. I coudl have fit in a Mentor Spirit, but I didn't feel like looking them up.
As it is, our boy casts Improved Reflexes, Armor, and small physical barrier dome (you can reduce the size down to 1m around you, if you'll take a penalty to your casting pool, no biggie) all sustained at all times, using the foci. He's got enough body to wear a camoflage armor suit as well. All told, he's wearing 14 points of armor total, has 3 initiative passes, and an initiative score of 12 with improved reflexes. With Stunball/stunbolt, he gets to bypass his opponent's armor entirely. With Ball Lightning, they're resisting with only half of their impact armor. He rolls 12 dice to cast them, and 9 dice to resist drain as a Hermetic.
Furthermore, by summoning a high-force water spirit, he can easily be more or less invisible through the concealment power.
Too bad the Ork and the Adepts comlinks are wide open.
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 10 2006, 03:27 AM) | ||
Keep in mind, I'm really tired, so this isn't my best optimization, But here goes: Metatype : Human Magician Attributes Body: 4 Agility: 1 Reaction: 5 Strength: 2 Charisma: 3 Intuition: 4 Logic: 4 Willpower: 5 Edge: 2 Magic: 6 Initiative: 9(12) Essence: 6 Active Skills Banishing : 4 Binding : 4 Summoning : 4 Spellcasting : 6 Counterspelling : 4 Dodge (Ranged Combat) : 2 Etiquette (Corporate) : 1 Negative Qualities Low Pain Tolerance Uneducated Gremlins 1 Weapons Armors Camouflage Suit Vehicles Commlinks Equipments Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3) Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3) Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3) Fake SIN (Rating 4) Spells Physical Barrier Armor Increase Reflexes Heal Ball Lightning Stunball Stunbolt Bonded Foci sust. foci 1 sust. foci 2 sust. foci 3 Now, this could be better. I coudl have fit in a Mentor Spirit, but I didn't feel like looking them up. As it is, our boy casts Improved Reflexes, Armor, and small physical barrier dome (you can reduce the size down to 1m around you, if you'll take a penalty to your casting pool, no biggie) all sustained at all times, using the foci. He's got enough body to wear a camoflage armor suit as well. All told, he's wearing 14 points of armor total, has 3 initiative passes, and an initiative score of 12 with improved reflexes. With Stunball/stunbolt, he gets to bypass his opponent's armor entirely. With Ball Lightning, they're resisting with only half of their impact armor. He rolls 12 dice to cast them, and 9 dice to resist drain as a Hermetic. Furthermore, by summoning a high-force water spirit, he can easily be more or less invisible through the concealment power. |
I thought the idea was to create a magic-based character that duplicates a samurai's abilities (and does it slightly better / cheaper). This build's offensive capability is entirely based on magic - i.e. your bog standard mage and lacks any of the things that Sammies do well. E.g. sustained and rapid offensive capability without worrying about drain, anti-object destructive capability (again, Ball Lightning will hurt the caster through drain). Not to mention that the Samurai can match it and have enough left over to put some skills in other areas. None of this is to say that it's a bad mage, but it isn't a samurai.
Others will do a better job of picking over weaknesses than I will, I'm certain, but those sustaining foci... which force goes with which spell? A sustaining focus limits the force of the spell by its rating, so Improved Reflexes (Increased Reflexes, actually - you have the Adept Power), must be the Force 3 to get you the +2IP, which leaves you either +2 armour from the Armour spell at most, and +1 from the barrier spell. You wouldn't turn the armour down, but not game breaking. And you've paid 30,000
for them plus another 3BP (15,000 ) to bomnd them. Mmmmm. Based on Force 2 armour spell, by the way, I make your total armour 10/8, not 14/14.And I would personally think that a 1m Physical Barrier spell is still unusable. Aside from giving yourself a -1 visibility penalty whenever used and marking yourself as a big glowing target for the opposition ( "Hmmm... which one do we want to shoot" ), it takes a simple action to activate it. A complex action to re-cast the spell if the GM insists on that (I think some do and some don't). In either case though, that's a 1m radius. I.e. your character is now effectively 2 metres wide. He's not going to live very long after the first couple of times another player's character wants to dive out the way of a grenade and the Walking Wall is in the way. Also, you do know how easy it is to bring down a Force 1 Physical Barrier, don't you? You can sneeze on it and bring it down, meaning your mage will have to recast. I don't see why you want to have this on a spell focus at all, actually.
As to easily conjuring a high force water spirit for concealment, he has charisma 3 and summoning 4. There's a good chance that conjuration could hurt him. The thing with summoning is that even though on average you're okay, every now and then a spirit will get a good roll and you have a problem. This is mitigated by binding the spirit, but that's a financial expense you don't need compared to the sammies infiltration skills.
Whatever this build is though, it is not a replacement for a samurai. I have a build that I think is, though like Hyzmarca's it really just emphasises the Samurai's virtues by what it has to give up to achieve comparability. I'll post it a bit later when I have time.
EDIT: You do know that your total hits on a spell are limited by the Force rating you cast at, don't you? It just seems that based on the above, you might not know this. I've seen several threads from you now all pretty much the same, about how mages are overpowered and samurai too weak. I think you need to play in a game with a GM who really knows the rules and how to run things realistically. My problem with awakened characters is that their development is open-ended, but I certainly think they're mostly balanced with non-magicians for quite some time before that becomes a problem.
The elf's main flaw would be that if they were facing opponents in numbers, and couldn't isolate them. They might drop one or two, but the other would get shots in.
As to that human, it looks nasty.
The main issue with all this is that no half sensible GM should allow these mages, though the Ork looks fun. Try justifying a mage that has all that.
The point of chargen is not to get the most powerful character possible, but to create the framework for a fictional person.
As to that human, it looks nasty.
The main issue with all this is that no half sensible GM should allow these mages, though the Ork looks fun. Try justifying a mage that has all that.
The point of chargen is not to get the most powerful character possible, but to create the framework for a fictional person.
If all characters in a group concists of magic users, it's propably because the general concensus in the gaming group is that mundanes suck. Or in the best case it's because all the players felt like playing magic users. In either case, in game this is a very lucky group. They will propably be hired a lot and get good money for their runs, because not all shadowrunning groups has the option to include so many magicans. However, there is plenty of reasons for a random running group to take hackers, street sams and any other character with a special skill along, because mages are not found in droves.
And incidently, mages do have an option that mundanes don't of which they have nothing gained in return, but it's not a case of mundanes being outclassed by magicans in every way. You still have to pay karma or buildpoints for magic as well as other stuff, and mundanes will have more left for the other stuff.
And incidently, mages do have an option that mundanes don't of which they have nothing gained in return, but it's not a case of mundanes being outclassed by magicans in every way. You still have to pay karma or buildpoints for magic as well as other stuff, and mundanes will have more left for the other stuff.
| QUOTE (Apathy) | ||
If you think it sucks, than post a better one yourself. Otherwise you just sound like a whiner. |
Dude, STFU. A whiner? Stop abusing internet slang, what the fuck was I whining about? How was my post whining? Get real flames.
Back on topic. That mage, I agree, 1 body and 1 str, a GM would have to use the encumber rules on him immediately.
Also, if those grenades didn't kill every single enemy in one round, he is toast in when they get an action..
Grenades suck, so he is toast.
Good catch on the dice pool penalty he'll have for low stats compared to his armour.
That Orc, now, that one was cool. He can take a hit, has a nice amount of health levels, and can dish out the pain.
That leads to the point of the whole topic:
Hell no Samurai are not obselete. That mage can dish out damage, but he has a crystal jaw. That Orc can dish it, he can take, and with a little more karma and cash, he will be hacking, fencing, meleeing, etc.
It really is a style choice, AOE nukes, or the guy who can cover your team on the escape.
Either way, it works. Samurai are fine.
| QUOTE (WorkOver) | ||||
Dude, STFU. A whiner? Stop abusing internet slang, what the fuck was I whining about? How was my post whining? Get real flames. |
Cripple fight!!
| QUOTE (WorkOver @ Sep 10 2006, 11:01 AM) | ||
Dude, STFU. A whiner? Stop abusing internet slang, what the fuck was I whining about? How was my post whining? Get real flames. |
Calling someone a whiner is "internet slang"? Wow, the internet was in widespread use decades before anyone imagined.
P.S. - the character sucked.
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 10 2006, 03:27 AM) |
| Metatype : Human Magician Attributes Body: 4 Agility: 1 Reaction: 5 Strength: 2 Charisma: 3 Intuition: 4 Logic: 4 Willpower: 5 Edge: 2 Magic: 6 Initiative: 9(12) Essence: 6 Active Skills Banishing : 4 Binding : 4 Summoning : 4 Spellcasting : 6 Counterspelling : 4 Dodge (Ranged Combat) : 2 Etiquette (Corporate) : 1 Negative Qualities Low Pain Tolerance Uneducated Gremlins 1 Weapons Armors Camouflage Suit Vehicles Commlinks Equipments Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3) Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3) Spellcasting Focus (Rating 3) Fake SIN (Rating 4) Spells Physical Barrier Armor Increase Reflexes Heal Ball Lightning Stunball Stunbolt Bonded Foci sust. foci 1 sust. foci 2 sust. foci 3 Now, this could be better. I coudl have fit in a Mentor Spirit, but I didn't feel like looking them up. As it is, our boy casts Improved Reflexes, Armor, and small physical barrier dome (you can reduce the size down to 1m around you, if you'll take a penalty to your casting pool, no biggie) all sustained at all times, using the foci. He's got enough body to wear a camoflage armor suit as well. All told, he's wearing 14 points of armor total, has 3 initiative passes, and an initiative score of 12 with improved reflexes. With Stunball/stunbolt, he gets to bypass his opponent's armor entirely. With Ball Lightning, they're resisting with only half of their impact armor. He rolls 12 dice to cast them, and 9 dice to resist drain as a Hermetic. Furthermore, by summoning a high-force water spirit, he can easily be more or less invisible through the concealment power. |
1 - That character doesn't replace a street samurai. He's just a combat mage, nothing more, nothings less. Any situation that restricts magic hits him fully. For example, last session my PCs fought in the house of a Wayne Gacy style twisted mage who butchered young kids in his basement. The Background in the house was +3 so a PC like yours would be hit with -3 to all his useful offensive option with no alternative. In the basement there was no light. Your PC is a human. He'd have fought at 3 dice on his spells?
A street sam barely batted an eye with his thermo vision,
2 - How do you get 14 points of armor total?
Your armor spell is rating 3 maximum to go on your sustaining foci so it's 3 hits maximum and therefore contribute 3 dice to your armor. Chameleon is 6 ballistic so you have a total of 9. With a barrier you could push to 12 but I don't believe the Barrier can be made to follow you around. That's what armor is for!
And even if it wasn't, at level 3, it will be destroyed the first time someone shoots at you. Level 3 means armor 3 and structure 3. Pretty much any bullet hitting with one net success will penetrate and therefore disrupt and shut down the barrier.
3 - A high powered spirit isn't gonna make him virtually invisible because your guy has agility 1 and no infiltration! That means you roll no dice. And you have edge 2!
So even if the guy you are hiding from has less perception than the force of your spirit, and even if it is a situation where you can use your chameleon suit (You'd be silly to assume you can wear it in any situation) and even if it's a purely visual test (your guys will be very clumsy when it comes to not making noise too and the suit won't help for that), even if all that is true on a given test...
Any dude with edge 3 will spot you most of the time should the GM choose to use it.
I really, really, wouldn't rely on stealth for that character.
4 - Your guy is a lighthouse in the astral. Despite your assertion, he can't have these spells on all the time. He'd never penetrate a guarded compund that has astral security. And it would be hard to activate all these spells afterward in the midst of a mission without taking some drain ; you roll an average of 3 success on drain. You need 3 success for Increased reflex, 4 for armor and 4 for Barrier. Most of the time you'll get some drain and you don't have much edge to save you from that.
5 - These are force 3 spell. Should a mage decide it's worth it to shut it down, it won't be too hard.
Finally I got to give you this ; SR4 has drastically cut down (apparently) on the bad things that can happen when you have active foci.
Personnally in my campaign I kept some of the previous countermeasures from previous editions but in SR4 it's not too easy to just shut down a foci from astral space.
But still, no way is that guy replacing a street sam and making him obsolete. Not even close.
And to be blunt, no way is he replacing the more multi-purpose mage I have in my campaign currently.
That mage use is very limited in scope. He's just not a good runner.
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||||
I thought the idea was to create a magic-based character that duplicates a samurai's abilities (and does it slightly better / cheaper). This build's offensive capability is entirely based on magic - i.e. your bog standard mage and lacks any of the things that Sammies do well. E.g. sustained and rapid offensive capability without worrying about drain, anti-object destructive capability (again, Ball Lightning will hurt the caster through drain). Not to mention that the Samurai can match it and have enough left over to put some skills in other areas. None of this is to say that it's a bad mage, but it isn't a samurai. Others will do a better job of picking over weaknesses than I will, I'm certain, but those sustaining foci... which force goes with which spell? A sustaining focus limits the force of the spell by its rating, so Improved Reflexes (Increased Reflexes, actually - you have the Adept Power), must be the Force 3 to get you the +2IP, which leaves you either +2 armour from the Armour spell at most, and +1 from the barrier spell. You wouldn't turn the armour down, but not game breaking. And you've paid 30,000 for them plus another 3BP (15,000 ) to bomnd them. Mmmmm. Based on Force 2 armour spell, by the way, I make your total armour 10/8, not 14/14.And I would personally think that a 1m Physical Barrier spell is still unusable. Aside from giving yourself a -1 visibility penalty whenever used and marking yourself as a big glowing target for the opposition ( "Hmmm... which one do we want to shoot" ), it takes a simple action to activate it. A complex action to re-cast the spell if the GM insists on that (I think some do and some don't). In either case though, that's a 1m radius. I.e. your character is now effectively 2 metres wide. He's not going to live very long after the first couple of times another player's character wants to dive out the way of a grenade and the Walking Wall is in the way. Also, you do know how easy it is to bring down a Force 1 Physical Barrier, don't you? You can sneeze on it and bring it down, meaning your mage will have to recast. I don't see why you want to have this on a spell focus at all, actually. As to easily conjuring a high force water spirit for concealment, he has charisma 3 and summoning 4. There's a good chance that conjuration could hurt him. The thing with summoning is that even though on average you're okay, every now and then a spirit will get a good roll and you have a problem. This is mitigated by binding the spirit, but that's a financial expense you don't need compared to the sammies infiltration skills. Whatever this build is though, it is not a replacement for a samurai. I have a build that I think is, though like Hyzmarca's it really just emphasises the Samurai's virtues by what it has to give up to achieve comparability. I'll post it a bit later when I have time. EDIT: You do know that your total hits on a spell are limited by the Force rating you cast at, don't you? It just seems that based on the above, you might not know this. I've seen several threads from you now all pretty much the same, about how mages are overpowered and samurai too weak. I think you need to play in a game with a GM who really knows the rules and how to run things realistically. My problem with awakened characters is that their development is open-ended, but I certainly think they're mostly balanced with non-magicians for quite some time before that becomes a problem. |
I think you misunderstood...those are all force 3 foci. I numbered them 1, 2, 3 to tell them apart. So each spell is at force 3. Likewise, my point was that a mage using magic would be more effective than a street sam, and that an adept could accomplish the exact same thing as a sam. So I guess I need to make an adept to prove the example.
I'll give it a shot later on tonight.
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