Yes if they play it smooth it can be hard to tell who the mage is until they do something. (Though expect word of who the mage is to travel fast through the coms). I don't think anyone is actually saying that mages aren't "uber" just that they aren't double uber because there are some things that can cause them problems.
Another is the availibility of wards, and the secuirty at them. Even pogling magicians can make wards, or be effective contributers to a powerful mage casting a ward.
So first one assumes security keeps an eye on people crossing warded areas. If someone pauses right there as slows you'll want to keep an eye on them as they may have just "pushed through" the ward keeping their goodies active.
Second it's easy to have layers of wards inside the building. And cheaper as smaller areas require less work. So a mage running around inside may have to roll for active foci all to often. Having their sustained spells dumped can suck.
Of course they can probably recast them without suffering much if any drain, and unless you're throwing up rating 6 wards all over they probably can run through wards with little trouble.
Actually would running through a ward with active foci alert the caster like it does when someone attacks the ward? It doesn't say that you do, but maybe I missed something. That would be huge.
Full Version: A Mage and his Buffs
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| Improved Invisibility, Improved Reflexes, Detect Enemies, Combat Senses, Manabolt, Stunbolt, Control Thoughts, Heal, Inc Attributes, Armor, Astral Armor, Levitate, Physical Barrier, Mana Barrier. |
For an Uber mage, I'd generally recommend the following list:
- Improved Invisibility
- Improved Reflexes
- Heal
- Levitate
- Physical Barrier
- Stun Ball
"What, no bolt spells", you ask? Get a gun, or consider it a specialist spell!
"Why not have spell X", you query? Well, it depends on the spell. Some might be duplicated by spirit powers, some might be nice but require to be cast at too high a force to be useful for a starting character (either to cast or to sustain in an affordable/available focus).
"Why is levitate in there?", you inquire? Sure, a good force air spirit could probably carry you, but you don't want to rely on having an air spirit around all the time.
@hyzmarca:
I find your comparison interesting, but would argue that the mage in your scenario isn't playing to his best advantage.
Firstly, he could potentially project to his target. Once he knows where the target is, he has the advantage and can potentially order a previously summoned spirit to mount a surprise attack. If he doesn't at-least try this technique first, is he really using his abilities to the best of his advantage?
Secondly, using spirits isn't completely the realm of mass-bonded-remote-nuking. The mage would have a team of watcher spirits, plus a summoned spirit. With that, he has another chance to detect an enemy's presence before moving into range and rolling initiative.
Sure, it may seem fair to assume some level of magical defences for the opponent, but how much is fair and how much is an advantage? Well, certainly the opponent shouldn't get anything for free. This means they'd probably need to buy a magician contact, and pay for them to set-up wards (base cost of materials, plus a percentage for 'labour', plus a fee for astral response that might be lumped into lifestyle if you're lucky or get an expensive one)
Overall:
I disagree with the claim that it costs a lot to make a good mage. Mages get a lot by just buying sorcery and conjuring with two attributes. I mean: Spirits, Spell defence, Projection/Perception/Assensing, and Warding. All of that before buying a single spell.
Many people claim that mages have 'gimped' physical attributes because of how much the above costs. Is that really the case though? I have to admit that I generally give my mages inferior physical stats, but that's not necessarily because I can't afford to. I weigh the costs and consider what is best for the character.
- Body is rarely dispensable, but can be weighed against how much you're willing to stay out of harm's way, an option available to mages, and use armor spells.
- Low strength is generally OK, spirits offer raw strength, levitate covers climb/run/swim.
- Low reactions are undesirable, but you can expect a good intuition for OK initiative and can keep invisible/concealed/round the corner in many situations.
- Low agility is not perfect, but with stealth and combat both enforced by spirits, spells, and invisibility... Agility can be a backup rather than a primary ability, although 3+ is most workable.
What's that you say? Many of these advantages negated by mages you say? Well, at-least they'll have poor physical attributes, they can't afford any better.
For an uber mage, I tend to go against the grain and eschew cyber - the main point seems to be vision boosters, and you can get that in a pair of goggles. I would also wait on sustaining foci until I can get them powerful enough to get the maximum oomph out of a spell (3 extra initiative passes from increase reflexes, 5 successes from improved invisibility, etc.). Instead, I would spend my resources on getting a power focus: 2 and a counterspelling (combat) focus: 3.
Generally, Body, Reaction, and the two Drain stats get the most points - Agility, Strength, and the other two mental stats are the dump stats. Soft-maxed magic and Edge. Skill-wise, I would avoid skill groups, since some of them are not essential at char-gen and can be picked up later. Generally, I would go for spellcasting, summoning, and counterspelling (mabye one point of assensing), at high levels with specializations. I would usually get a mentor spirit.
Spellwise, powerbolt and stunball at least, possibly others. A good indirect combat spell is useful, but not essential at char-gen. Also heal, increase reflexes, improved invisibility, and levitate. Lots of other good spells, but those six are the must-haves. If I needed a defensive spell, combat sense and deflection would both get the nod over armor, which protects you but makes you a glowing target at the same time.
Mages are still far from invincible, though. They are versatile, but are better used from cover than as a front-line fighter. Also, one of the biggest potential disadvantages to playing a mage is that there are mana ebbs, surges, background count, and so on. The mage loses dice and has to soak heavier drain, and in SR4, even adepts suffer temporary magic loss in such areas.
Generally, Body, Reaction, and the two Drain stats get the most points - Agility, Strength, and the other two mental stats are the dump stats. Soft-maxed magic and Edge. Skill-wise, I would avoid skill groups, since some of them are not essential at char-gen and can be picked up later. Generally, I would go for spellcasting, summoning, and counterspelling (mabye one point of assensing), at high levels with specializations. I would usually get a mentor spirit.
Spellwise, powerbolt and stunball at least, possibly others. A good indirect combat spell is useful, but not essential at char-gen. Also heal, increase reflexes, improved invisibility, and levitate. Lots of other good spells, but those six are the must-haves. If I needed a defensive spell, combat sense and deflection would both get the nod over armor, which protects you but makes you a glowing target at the same time.
Mages are still far from invincible, though. They are versatile, but are better used from cover than as a front-line fighter. Also, one of the biggest potential disadvantages to playing a mage is that there are mana ebbs, surges, background count, and so on. The mage loses dice and has to soak heavier drain, and in SR4, even adepts suffer temporary magic loss in such areas.
It seems to me...
Unless you have a facility that by nessessity must involve mages or magic; eg, a magic research facility, oricalcum creation operation...
The best way to secure it against mages is simply to keep it full of FAB III at all times, and ensure that nobod who's Awakened works there.
Unless you have a facility that by nessessity must involve mages or magic; eg, a magic research facility, oricalcum creation operation...
The best way to secure it against mages is simply to keep it full of FAB III at all times, and ensure that nobod who's Awakened works there.
But then the cloud wouldn't have anything to feed on except the backrground count, which would keep it at a low Force. And it wouldn't stop a mage who wasn't astrally active. And it can be killed in astral combat, or with a sterilize spell, if you spot it. And even when it works, it takes hours - sure, it's nice to know the mage will drop dead later on (assuming he's dumb enough to stay astrally active for all that time), but it won't stop him from blowing away the security guards. And finally, FAB III is only practical in an enclosed area, otherwise the cloud will drift off. FAB III can be an insidious threat, but it's not that effective as a security measure.
Now, if an installation was designed so that everyone had to pass through a certain area to get into the complex, and they kept a cloud of FAB III in that one area, that would be effective. But still only in a "this will mess them up later" kind of way.
Now, if an installation was designed so that everyone had to pass through a certain area to get into the complex, and they kept a cloud of FAB III in that one area, that would be effective. But still only in a "this will mess them up later" kind of way.
The problem is that the various vision enhancements and modes you put into a pair of googles won't help you with LOS or lessen the negatives from darkness, ect applied against your Spell Pool where-as cybereyes do. *Edit* With the exception of optics of course, but that is what, Vision Enhancement only? */Edit*
And besides, there are other implants which are also very sweet for Mages are the Pian Editor (Ignore normal Drain until it starts overflowing.). And also any Mage who is planning on researching her own spells or doing any enchanting on the side should get a Sleep Regulator installed as soon as possibe.
And besides, there are other implants which are also very sweet for Mages are the Pian Editor (Ignore normal Drain until it starts overflowing.). And also any Mage who is planning on researching her own spells or doing any enchanting on the side should get a Sleep Regulator installed as soon as possibe.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| The problem is that the various vision enhancements and modes you put into a pair of googles won't help you with LOS or lessen the negatives from darkness, ect applied against your Spell Pool where-as cybereyes do. *Edit* With the exception of optics of course, but that is what, Vision Enhancement only? */Edit* |
i don't think vision enhancement is optical... the only thing i can think of that would be optical is vision magnification. which is nice, and certainly something you can afford to worry about only when you really need it, but which is not going to help if someone drops a smoke grenade, turns off the lights, etc.
While it has its own risks it looks, a mage can get around most sight problems by flicking on their astral perception. In this edition the penalty when using astral perception only applies to "physical, non-magical" activities, and is only -2 in the first place.
And it does say targets astrally perceiveing can still target stuff in the meat world.
Anyway full darkness is obviously nothing to astral perception, the target freaking glows!
You can also just close your real eyes to negate glare penalties. And since they're subjective the range and fog penalties would likely be reduced or ignored (again the target is freaking glowing).
And it does say targets astrally perceiveing can still target stuff in the meat world.
Anyway full darkness is obviously nothing to astral perception, the target freaking glows!
You can also just close your real eyes to negate glare penalties. And since they're subjective the range and fog penalties would likely be reduced or ignored (again the target is freaking glowing).
Except that switching on Astral Perception allows astral-only critters to eat your face and materialization/possession critters to eat your face with significantly greater ease.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| i don't think vision enhancement is optical... the only thing i can think of that would be optical is vision magnification. which is nice, and certainly something you can afford to worry about only when you really need it, but which is not going to help if someone drops a smoke grenade, turns off the lights, etc. |
Yeah, I was thinking about Vision Mag, I don't know why I wrote Enhancement instead.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| While it has its own risks it looks, a mage can get around most sight problems by flicking on their astral perception. In this edition the penalty when using astral perception only applies to "physical, non-magical" activities, and is only -2 in the first place. And it does say targets astrally perceiveing can still target stuff in the meat world. Anyway full darkness is obviously nothing to astral perception, the target freaking glows! You can also just close your real eyes to negate glare penalties. And since they're subjective the range and fog penalties would likely be reduced or ignored (again the target is freaking glowing). |
Although I'd disagree about Range, Fog ect, in addition to hyzmarca's point about allowing Astral Monsters to eat your face, going Dual nature is also a huge "Geek Me" sign assuming that your targer has any Astral Overwatch abilities at all.
Burning 1 point of Essense for cybereyes plus a few other tidbits is still looking like a really good deal.
To each his own on the cybereyes. There is no arguing that they're nice, but so is that extra point of magic (it isn't just your essense going down with the cyber, you do realize that right?)
One other limiting thing on mages (since that's what the OP hopes we'll talk about). They tend to have less defense against out of the blue attacks.
When on a run a mages bag of tricks for not getting killed can be impressive.
But should they get jumped when they aren't expecting it they can be less than impressive.
One other limiting thing on mages (since that's what the OP hopes we'll talk about). They tend to have less defense against out of the blue attacks.
When on a run a mages bag of tricks for not getting killed can be impressive.
But should they get jumped when they aren't expecting it they can be less than impressive.
Then again, everyone who is attacked when not expecting it has big problems.
| QUOTE (Particle_Beam) |
| Then again, everyone who is attacked when not expecting it has big problems. |
Well if they're hit by a missle out of the blue everyone is screwed. The mages issue is more with the guy punching/stabbing/shooting them with a pistol in the club. Where a sammies damage reducing and armor adding cyberware would probably get them through the initial surprise attack and leave them in good stead for a counterattack, the +4 DV from a called shot on top of no defense may well be to much for the mage.
Though as always there are a bunch of ways a mage could possibly have arranged things so that such an occurance wouldn't happen.
For example maybe an elemental was set to protect the mage in the astral ahead of time.
Actually that's something I mentioned in another thread. A mage has to do stuff like precase spirits and bother with sustaining things and all that. A mundane can just do stuff, making them a bit smoother to play. It's a small thing but there it is.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| To each his own on the cybereyes. There is no arguing that they're nice, but so is that extra point of magic (it isn't just your essense going down with the cyber, you do realize that right?) |
Sure, but one point of Magic isn't nearly as nice as being able to realibly target your spells against what should be a common defensive tactics.
And also the question isn't whether or not cybereyes are worth that point of magic, it's whether or not cybereyes plus a pain editor, plus a few other implants are worth that one point of magic.
Now if you want to burn two points then we start asking the same questions about whether or not extra IPs that don't glow on the astral and trip wards or worth it.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that one trick ponies, even if they are "uber Mages" aren't nearly as good in play as they look on paper provided the DM isn't afraid of the characters.
There are also numerous circumstances where a mage would be better-off than a Sammie. Sure, if they're swung at randomly in a night club then their lower attributes might mean they take a few more boxes of damage. The mage, however, is still fully armed whilst the Sammie probably had to check his gun in at the cloak room.
He can disappear (literally) into the crowd or, if it looks like it's a hostile crowd too, drop a high-force stun-ball and KO everyone within a 9m radius. Assuming he's swapping some of the sorcery dice for drain and protecting friendlies with counterspelling, he can possibly even drop it on top of friendlies (including himself) without worrying about friendly fire or serious drain.
He can disappear (literally) into the crowd or, if it looks like it's a hostile crowd too, drop a high-force stun-ball and KO everyone within a 9m radius. Assuming he's swapping some of the sorcery dice for drain and protecting friendlies with counterspelling, he can possibly even drop it on top of friendlies (including himself) without worrying about friendly fire or serious drain.
Well something to remember is that unless you use one of the optional tweaks you can't save sorcery dice for drain anymore.
Sorcery as a skill, and the ability to withold part of it to resist Drain, are both third edition. In SR4, you can't withold spellcasting dice (although you can do this with a spellcasting focus). There may also be some debate about whether you can use counterspelling on your own spells. I would allow it, myself, based on how they describe spell defense as working.
On visual aids, they only can't be used if they are substituting themselves for the target's own visual senses. Magnification can be optical, while thermo and ultrasound are out, but low-light vision, flare compensation, and visual enhancement may or may not be useable - not quite enough information, so it's a GM call.
On visual aids, they only can't be used if they are substituting themselves for the target's own visual senses. Magnification can be optical, while thermo and ultrasound are out, but low-light vision, flare compensation, and visual enhancement may or may not be useable - not quite enough information, so it's a GM call.
Why is thermo out? Dwarf and troll mages get it.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Why is thermo out? Dwarf and troll mages get it. |
because the only way to make it visible in the (human) visible light spectrum is to take the data, convert it into a separate visual image, and project it onto a screen of some kind where it can be interpreted by people who don't already have thermal vision.
i would argue the same is true for low light vision... unless you've developed an optical filter that somehow filters *in* light from nowhere, low-light is not going to be available as optical.
(note: optical low-light vision is available, just not as a passive mod. it is known in common parlance as a "flashlight")
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| [QUOTE=Tarantula,Jul 4 2007, 09:52 PM] i would argue the same is true for low light vision... unless you've developed an optical filter that somehow filters *in* light from nowhere, low-light is not going to be available as optical. |
I think you can do that by focusing light from a larger area. You'll need big, bulky goggles though, and it probably won't be as effective.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Sorcery as a skill, and the ability to withold part of it to resist Drain, are both third edition. In SR4, you can't withold spellcasting dice (although you can do this with a spellcasting focus). There may also be some debate about whether you can use counterspelling on your own spells. I would allow it, myself, based on how they describe spell defense as working. On visual aids, they only can't be used if they are substituting themselves for the target's own visual senses. Magnification can be optical, while thermo and ultrasound are out, but low-light vision, flare compensation, and visual enhancement may or may not be useable - not quite enough information, so it's a GM call. |
Gah... I could've sworn it was in in another way too...
Nah, you're probably right. It hints at it, but it doesn't say outright that you can do it. P173, under area spells, was probably what gave me that impression:
| QUOTE |
| The caster can reduce or expand the base radius by 1 meter for every die withheld from the Spellcasting Test. Dice expended to change the radius of effect cannot be used in any related test, such as resisting Drain for that spell. |
Fair enough, in that case I suppose I could suggest making it force 7 and dropping a few dice to increase the radius. That'd still leave the spell itself as a bit of a glass mallet, enough to KO a bunch of goons leaving protected individuals unharmed, but still keeping the drain low enough that you'd only take drain on an unlucky roll.
Reading my notes from a SR4 mage character, I remembered how I dealt with the issue of no longer being able to trade competence on casting/summoning with competence on drain. Assuming you have a round to cast/buff in:
Cast Increase Attribute, force 9, on yourself and boost one of your drain-resisting attributes to 8-9 (drain is only 2, so you can just buy hits). Hey presto: 3-4 more dice on drain for the -2 dice sustaining penalty on casting. Sustaining doesn't affect drain in this edition.
If you have even more time, repeat for the other drain attribute. You'll be resisting drain with a genuine bucket-load of dice.
Cast Increase Attribute, force 9, on yourself and boost one of your drain-resisting attributes to 8-9 (drain is only 2, so you can just buy hits). Hey presto: 3-4 more dice on drain for the -2 dice sustaining penalty on casting. Sustaining doesn't affect drain in this edition.
If you have even more time, repeat for the other drain attribute. You'll be resisting drain with a genuine bucket-load of dice.
Going through the gear section, it would seem that only those devices under the optical devices category could be used for casting through. (Endoscope, mage sight goggles, periscope) Anything else (even flare comp) couldn't be, except for vision magnification which specifically says optical is an option.
For soaking Drain, there are a number of ways to go. None of them are that significant by themselves, but several of them together can be a decent boost. Example - dwarven hermetic mage, soft-maxed Drain stats (Willpower: 6, Logic: 5), focused concentration: 2, cerebral booster: 2, fetish modifier for a combat spell, and a spellcasting (combat) focus: 3. That character could be rolling 20 dice to resist Drain.
For casting an area spell and counterspelling it on the friendlies, one trick would be to cast the spell normally, but use Edge on the counterspelling test.
As far as the visual aids go, they have optical low-light scopes and goggles, and optical flare compensation, now, so I doubt they wouldn't be available in the future. Probably not as contact lenses, but I could see them in goggles, or even glasses.
For casting an area spell and counterspelling it on the friendlies, one trick would be to cast the spell normally, but use Edge on the counterspelling test.
As far as the visual aids go, they have optical low-light scopes and goggles, and optical flare compensation, now, so I doubt they wouldn't be available in the future. Probably not as contact lenses, but I could see them in goggles, or even glasses.
how do these optical low-light goggles work, exactly?
At a basic level you use two lenses to "shrink" an incoming light beam. The image now has the same number of photons but is simply in a smaller area. Hence brighter.
The trick of course is that the first lens has to be big so that it can gather a lot of light. So such a device would be bulky. Kinda like a big scope. Also while a digital CCD will simply saturate something like this would fry your eyeballs if there was a bright flash.
The trick of course is that the first lens has to be big so that it can gather a lot of light. So such a device would be bulky. Kinda like a big scope. Also while a digital CCD will simply saturate something like this would fry your eyeballs if there was a bright flash.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Also while a digital CCD will simply saturate something like this would fry your eyeballs if there was a bright flash. |
i c 0.o
...well, it's a good thing they have optical flare comp then =S
Umm, wouldn't the visual aids still work for the mage if they were in cyber? To have them, the mage did pay Essence for them after all.
yes. go back and read the discussion, and you'll find that's exactly what we're talking about =P
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