Full Version: Sniping with Pistols
| QUOTE (The Grifter) |
| If you're making an adept, I'd say scrap the scope, spend the .25 of a power point for Vision Magnification, and then you could use it with any pistol. But that's just my opinion. As for stats, 8S sounds pretty steep to me, but then again I guess it would depend on what type of rifle round the handgiun was chambered for. |
High-power rifle ammunition, I would say. No fancy loading mechanisims mean less things to break. Considering that it's got a 15" barrel, one might just consider it a rifle with Bullpup Design and a reduced-length barrel. (-2 power, +2 concealibility, reduced weight.) Range would also be a bit shorter, but still far and a away better than anything else smaller then an assault rifle.
I know most people here are none too fond of houserules and weapon creation, but the whole "Anything using rifle ammunition must be a rifle, even if the barrel is 4'" thing is pretty silly. Although it might wreak havoc on a normal semi-automatic pistol's machinery, there's no good reason why a break-action weapon could'nt use rifle shells and a pistol-style grip. Admittedly, there's a good deal of reasons why a panther cannon in pistol size would'nt work, but rifle ammo should work just fine if the firing mechanisim is reinforced well enough.
IRL, you can get some pistols like the Thompson/Center Encore or the Lone Eagle in common hunting calibers like .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm and .30-06. You could justify 8S for these, if you're willing to bend the rules a bit. Such pistols are always single-shot, however.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| IRL, you can get some pistols like the Thompson/Center Encore or the Lone Eagle in common hunting calibers like .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm and .30-06. You could justify 8S for these, if you're willing to bend the rules a bit. Such pistols are always single-shot, however. |
I was asking for specs on the Thomson/Center Eagle, actually. I wrote up a weapon description, with the only non-cannon modification being dropping the weight from an absurd 4.5 kg. to a more reasonable 2 kg, and firing it under the pistol skill instead of the rifle skill. (This is without scope, mind you.) And, if I'm not mistaken, weapons like these have existed since the late 80's, so they would be entirely logical finds in Seattle in 2064.
Thompson Center Arms Encore .375 JDJ
Damage 9S
Firing Mode: SS
Concealibility: 6
FCU: .75 (remaining)
Ammo: 5
Weight: 2
RC comp: 1
DPV: 348
Notes:
Bullpup Design
Break Action loading
Reduced Barrel
Improved Power II
Weight Decrease VI
Improved laser sight
Silencer
Total cost:
2240
Notes:
Because this weapon is over 60 years old in the shadowrun universe, it is found primarily in antique stores. Due to a low media presence, it's not highly collectible, so the street value multiplier is 1. These weapons almost always have a scope attached, but time and rust tend to have damaged these beyond repair, so the price of a scope is not included.
"Ammo" should probably be "1". 
Another problem with designing it from a Sporting Rifle is that you end up with 90/225/450/675 ranges, which are just way too fricken high for a pistol in any caliber -- compare with Heavy Pistols, which might come pretty close to the ballistics of the .375 JDJ from a 14" barrel (220gr @ 2300fps vs. 240gr @ 1900fps for a .440 COR-BON DE), but are stuck at 5/22/44/66.
Another problem with designing it from a Sporting Rifle is that you end up with 90/225/450/675 ranges, which are just way too fricken high for a pistol in any caliber -- compare with Heavy Pistols, which might come pretty close to the ballistics of the .375 JDJ from a 14" barrel (220gr @ 2300fps vs. 240gr @ 1900fps for a .440 COR-BON DE), but are stuck at 5/22/44/66.
One more example of why the firearms creation rules are crap and should not be used by anyone!
This Sounds like a Job for....... CARBINE!
What?
I like the sholder stock Idea, You can feal like Cournal Mortamer from 'A Few Dollars More'. (ya know when he bags that guy in the beginining of the movie)
I thought the US military had a class of weapons called "carbine". They issued the M1 Carbine in WW2 to rear echelon and armored units because they needed weapon with better range and power than the .45 Colt Sidearm, and the M1 Garand was too expensive/bulky. I don't remember anything in SR3 thats fits this category, but it looks like this is what Corwyn is looking for: A weapon that is more concealable than a long arm but "bigger" than handgun.
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl08-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl08-e.htm
| QUOTE |
| The last modification was the M3, which originally appeared as an experimental prototype T3. It was no more than a M2 select-fire carbine, fitted with special mounts to accept night-vision sighting devices (IR sights). Intended use was as a short-range, night-time sniper rifle. M3 also was used in Korea and, probably, Vietnam. |
The M1 Carbine issues in WW2 is really fairly unique in terms of what a carbine is today (and, in many ways, has been historically). Hell, even in WW2, SMGs like the Thompson and Sten were referred to (somewhat erroneously) as carbines by certain groups, and the German standard rifle, the 98K, was also a carbine (karbiner). Hell, the G43, later in the war, was also cut short as a carbine to make the G43K. Today, the M4 carbine is an M16 with a fully automatic reciever and a shorter barrel and hand guard. Carbines really just tend to be rifles with shorter barrels and slight modifications to take advantage of the shorter length. The M1 carbine is, then, unique, because it was designed from the ground up to be small and fire what was pretty much a glorified pistol round. Not a good example.
In any case, Raygun's site has a pretty good explanation of why this term can be a bit muddy.
In any case, Raygun's site has a pretty good explanation of why this term can be a bit muddy.
A carbine is a rifle that uses smaller cartriges and has a smaller size compared to a full sized rifle. t sacrifices range and lethality for speed and protaility. Generally, all assault rifles are technically carbines.
No. Assault rifles are full size rifles. They are not carbines.
The M16 is a full size assault rifle firing an intermediate caliber (5.56x45mm). The M4 is a carbine in the same family with a shorter barrel. It fires the same stuff.
The SG550 is a full size assault rifle firing an intermediate caliber (5.56x45mm). The SG551 is a carbine in the same family with a shorter barrel. It fires the same stuff. The SG552 is a short carbine with a shorter barrel and it still fires the same stuff.
The M16, SG550 are assault rifles. They are not carbines.
The G3 is a full size battle rifle firing a full rifle caliber (7.62x51mm). The G3K is a carbine in the same family with a shorter barrel and it fires the same stuff.
The FAL is a full size battle rifle firing a full rifle caliber (7.62x51mm). The FAL paratrooper model is a carbine in the same family with a shorter barrel and it fires the same stuff. The FAL OSW is a modified short carbine in the same family with an even shorter barrel and it still fires the same ammunition.
Hell, the German standard rifle in WW1 was the Mauser G98 firing the 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge. It was a full size rifle. The Germans used this rifle again in WW2, but modified it to be shorter, creating the Mauser K98k— the K standing for Karbiner, or carbine. Still fired the exact same cartridge: 7.92x57mm Mauser.
The M16 is a full size assault rifle firing an intermediate caliber (5.56x45mm). The M4 is a carbine in the same family with a shorter barrel. It fires the same stuff.
The SG550 is a full size assault rifle firing an intermediate caliber (5.56x45mm). The SG551 is a carbine in the same family with a shorter barrel. It fires the same stuff. The SG552 is a short carbine with a shorter barrel and it still fires the same stuff.
The M16, SG550 are assault rifles. They are not carbines.
The G3 is a full size battle rifle firing a full rifle caliber (7.62x51mm). The G3K is a carbine in the same family with a shorter barrel and it fires the same stuff.
The FAL is a full size battle rifle firing a full rifle caliber (7.62x51mm). The FAL paratrooper model is a carbine in the same family with a shorter barrel and it fires the same stuff. The FAL OSW is a modified short carbine in the same family with an even shorter barrel and it still fires the same ammunition.
Hell, the German standard rifle in WW1 was the Mauser G98 firing the 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge. It was a full size rifle. The Germans used this rifle again in WW2, but modified it to be shorter, creating the Mauser K98k— the K standing for Karbiner, or carbine. Still fired the exact same cartridge: 7.92x57mm Mauser.
The M-4 is a good example of a RL carbine, and I believe there's a gun in the CC calle the Colt Cobra or somesuch that is a carbine for Special Forces.
| QUOTE (The Grifter) |
| I believe there's a gun in the CC calle the Colt Cobra or somesuch that is a carbine for Special Forces. |
It's not called a carbine, thank goodness, it just mentions that it's "[t]he chosen SMG of special-weapons units [whatever those are] around the world". For whatever reason, Cannon Companion only calls shortened, full rifle caliber, select-fire (burst fire, none full auto capable) "Carbines".
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
It's not called a carbine, thank goodness, it just mentions that it's "[t]he chosen SMG of special-weapons units [whatever those are] around the world". For whatever reason, Cannon Companion only calls shortened, full rifle caliber, select-fire (burst fire, none full auto capable) "Carbines". |
I think he might have confused it with the Colt M24A3 Water Carbine.
Forgot about that piece of crap. Yeah, in addition to the above, Cannon Companion also calls SMGs with air tanks tacked on "Carbines".
unfortunately Jane is packed in a box somewheres, but if I recall correctly, guns seem to have the name carbine slapped on them by the manufacturer arbitrarily. as is the case of a japanese rifle that is shorter than the "carbine" version of said weapon. in general a carbine is a 1. rifle firing a pistol round 2. a SMG type frame firing a rifle round, or some type of bastard weapon that needs a cool name.
Unfortunately, pistol sniping is something of a running joke because it's so impractical. Just stick with the sport rifle.
| QUOTE (Krazy) |
| unfortunately Jane is packed in a box somewheres, but if I recall correctly, guns seem to have the name carbine slapped on them by the manufacturer arbitrarily. |
With current Western gun makers, it's not exactly arbitrary.
| QUOTE (http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/assault/iapps_ar.html) |
| The common definition of the word carbine is simply, "a lightweight rifle with a short barrel." With that in mind, the term has been in use for quite a while, in regard to rifle designs that have been abbreviated in any manner of ways. The term has been used to describe a version of the Springfield "Trapdoor" single-shot rifle, which was developed to suit the use of horse-mounted cavalry. The Mauser G98 became the Karabiner 98K while the US developed the M1 Carbine during WWII. The list goes on. M16A2 (1982) and M4 Carbine (1994). Today, the term "carbine" is more commonly used to describe a compact assault rifle. A good example of this is the carbine version of the M16A2 assault rifle, designated by the US military as the M4 carbine. It differs from the M16A2 by including a 14.5-inch barrel (shortened from 20 inches) and a retractable shoulder stock, in order to make the weapon more compact. The same can be said for the AKS-74U, which is a compact version of the Russian AK-74 assault rifle that includes a 8.26-inch barrel (shortened from 15.75 inches) and a folding shoulder stock. The carbine is usually reserved for close range work (MOUT and CQB environments). In recent years, many police SWAT, hostage rescue, and counter-terrorism teams have begun to transition away from the use of the submachine gun to the carbine, mostly because of the proliferation of body armor and the higher penetration potential that rifle cartridges offer over pistol cartridges. For lack of a better term, marketeers over the years have hastened to attach the word "carbine" to long-barreled, semi-automatic firearms that fire pistol cartridges. Depending on who you talk to, this may or may not be a proper use of the term. |
(This was linked above by Arethusa, but I figured it was not being read.) There are a few oddities, like the way the Chinese call the AK-47-copy the "Type 56 Rifle" and the SKS-copy (which is longer) the "Type 56 Carbine", but on the whole guns are named "carbines" based on what Arethusa has been explaining.
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