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Mistwalker
OK,

It hasn't come up yet, but how long do the batteries on smart wireless weapons last? and on smart weapons with wireless turned off (skin link)?

In a normal run, it wouldn't be an issue, but on a wilderness, or similar deprived area, it could be important.

How are they charged?

Anyone done any work on this?
Ancient History
They work until the GM tells you they go dead in the middle of a firefight.

Note to samurai: always tell the GM you're spending some downtime cleaning/repairing/reloading/recharging your weapons, vehicles, and other gear. Download the patch on the IC-breaker too, while you're at it.
Ryu
No rules that I know off, and impossible to say without knowing the actual tech.

As you only need the smartlink in combat rather than all the time, pretty much as long as you need it to work.
Mistwalker
On that subject, what kind of rating do smart weapons have for wireless nodes?

That is, what is the level of program that I can load into it?
BlackHat
As far as I know, this has been abstracted away to the point where the answer is "long enough". Aside from some electricity weapons that hold "charges", I'm glad that everything else doesn't make you micromanage power supplies. Or fuel for that matter.

I remember in SR3 when I played a rigger who, for some reason, was expected to buy batteries for his cyberdeck (and micromanage how many hours of power they still had), but not for his control deck (or whatever those things were called back in SR3 wink.gif). It similarly sucked paying attention to the levels of fuel in my various drones and vehicles.

The thought of having to put my weapons in "power save" mode, and manage power-levels, makes me shudder. biggrin.gif
Mistwalker
I wasn't looking to micro-manage or have players micro-manage their power usage or fuel use. I was mostly looking for a guide line for wilderness adventures or other powerless regions.

For drone usage, I usually let them go for 24 hours before they need to be recharged, if they can't find a power hook-up where they are.
DireRadiant
Glitches, critical glitches.

Glitch = Low power!

Critical Glitch= Battery blow up!
BlackHat
That's not a bad way of handling it - except that for some reason an unskilled gunslinger's pistols drain batteries like a gameboy, and the skilled gun-bunny's guns work effectivly forever...

But that could sort of be explained by sayign that the skileld hcaracter would know how to care for his weapon better - when to put it in power-save, and would be more likely to habitually recharge it.
Zen Shooter01
I own a wristwatch that runs off solar power.
Thanee
It's like those watches, that 'recharge' constantly by moving them. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Mistwalker
I can just see it.

You have a little solar panel on the top of your Pred IV. You have to have it out and waving it around to recharge it. cyber.gif That might draw a little attention.

Actually, they just might, as an additional way to recharge the batteries.
lorechaser
"ARGH! Why did I buy a solar powered gun when I run the shadows?!"

DireRadiant
Tap tap... this chrome dome full cyber replacement skull you see here... well it's also a solar power collector! Never run out of juice.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
OK,

It hasn't come up yet, but how long do the batteries on smart wireless weapons last? and on smart weapons with wireless turned off (skin link)?

In a normal run, it wouldn't be an issue, but on a wilderness, or similar deprived area, it could be important.

How are they charged?

Anyone done any work on this?

I was thinking about this for things like Low-light, Thermo and SL enabled contact lenses, but decided that who cares as long as it works. Plus, who really want's to care about changing batteries in their contact lenses? cyber.gif
Mistwalker
I could see the contact lenses being powered off of your body (heat, motion-blinks, electical field, etc..). I figure most cyberware works like that.

Shudders to think about changing batteries in a cyber commlink.

Shrike30
The character with the low skill flat-out FORGETS to change the batteries (hence the higher glitch chance).
eidolon
To me, this is the kind of stuff that you can use to really flesh out the fluff side of your game, but that I would probably never actually use in a mechanical way.

So as a player, I might say stuff like "Well, while we're just sitting here waiting for the attack to come, I'm going to check my gear, you know, change batteries, check levels, etc."

As a GM, responding to that, I might do something like "cool, you start running over your weapon; just as you pop out the battery pack to swap it for a fresh one, you hear what you think might have been somebody stepping on a branch about 25 yards into the woods to your left". (I'd never say "hahaha! you got shot cause you didn't have a battery" or anything, but I might use it to create atmosphere.)

Then, as the player responding to that, I might say "okay, I slap my weapon back together as fast as I can while still making sure to do it right, and I hunker down and look in that direction".

That lets you add the element as part of the world, for realism and "cool", but it doesn't create situations where you're worried that you're micro-managing or penalizing players for stuff that really isn't all that important.
dog_xinu
QUOTE
That's not a bad way of handling it - except that for some reason an unskilled gunslinger's pistols drain batteries like a gameboy, and the skilled gun-bunny's guns work effectivly forever...


Well a highly skilled gun-bunny will spend the time cleaning and maintaining their weapons. And unskilled dweeb wont. so it makes a lot of sense. I think I am going to start using this in my current game.

dog
Draconis
I would think with the amount of electronic stuff the person of 2070 carries on them that there would be some universal charger. Can you imagine maintaining and plugging in a dozen different widgets? Oh crap now where did I put that adapter....
Also with power consumption and recharge notices why would skill factor in? I'm looking at my laptop's power bar right now, I don't think there's much of a difference if I notice it or joe average as long as they understand what it means.

Also in 2070 your gear is smart. Remember your toaster can give you the weather report while your fridge is ordering more groceries. You should see what the important stuff can do.

Hell my gear practically takes care of itsself. My predator IV vibrates when it's getting low on ammo so I know when to change a clip even if I ignore the ammo count displayed on my cybereyes. No cybereyes? Have it output to your commlink, your wristwatch, your smartgoggles whatever. I'm sure it occasionaly sends messages to my eyes or commlink about status, maintenance, hell maybe it just wants to talk.

So in short with the prevalence of efficient battery powered items and with their auto notice features, power supply shouldn't be much of an issue.
kigmatzomat
Well, my bluetooth headset (range ~20ft) lasts for around 24-72 hours of standby. It'd be more but it goes into a power-hungry seek mode when it gets separated from my Treo, like when I go to a meeting while the Treo is on the charger. It can provide something like 4 hours of talk time and this is in a package the size of your little finger.

If it goes into a sleep mode anytime you aren't holding it/disengage the safety and the batteries would probably last several weeks.

As to the universal charger, at least one company was pushing for an induction charge pad that would charge any device that was set on it. I doubt it will get off the ground just b/c of the profit margin on chargers and other simple electronic devices.
Zeitgeist
The thing is that we encounter problems when we analyze SR tech to closely. To hell with the batteries on a smartgun (actualy, any gun), where does the power for your cyberlimbs come from? Are there people wandering around in 2070 totaly blind because they got drunk and forgot to charge up their peepers? We can't figure out how such-and-such works because it don't exist!

Now to contradict myself...Considering the amount of heat and kinetic energy a gunshot produces, I'm sure recharging isn't an issue. Also, what with nanotech and it being 64 years in the future, I'm pretty sure that the batteries in our characters' guns will outlive the characters themselves nyahnyah.gif
Garrowolf
The way I always thought about was that the clip on a smart gun has a small rechargable powercell in it. You not only reload the clip but you also recharge it kind of like walkie talkies.

On the cyberware front: Only really tiny things in my game run off your bioelectric field. Your regular cyberware requires monthly upkeep which equals 5% the cost of the cyberware and requires a cyberdoc contact to do the work. That covers powercells and such as well as normal (or even moderate) levels of damage. If they stop paying it for two months then they gain the gremlins quality with their cyberware.
Draconis
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
The way I always thought about was that the clip on a smart gun has a small rechargable powercell in it. You not only reload the clip but you also recharge it kind of like walkie talkies.

Not a bad idea. They use that concept for the guns in the film Aliens.
Draconis
QUOTE (Zeitgeist)
The thing is that we encounter problems when we analyze SR tech to closely. To hell with the batteries on a smartgun (actualy, any gun), where does the power for your cyberlimbs come from? Are there people wandering around in 2070 totaly blind because they got drunk and forgot to charge up their peepers? We can't figure out how such-and-such works because it don't exist!


Not yet but they're working on it. Oh and do you really want to know where the power comes from? I suspect ATPases coupled to electroactive polymers for limbs. So basically proton gradients are supplying the power. No charging or batteries required just like your real muscles.

You did ask. smile.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Oct 14 2006, 06:48 PM)
On the cyberware front: Only really tiny things in my game run off your bioelectric field. Your regular cyberware requires monthly upkeep which equals 5% the cost of the cyberware and requires a cyberdoc contact to do the work.

So, a character'd be paying 60% of the overall cost of all his implants per year in your game ... just for upkeep? Um ... nice. ohplease.gif
knasser
Bah! Batteries are old-school. It would be perfectly possible to use fuel cells (more here). In prototype, something about the weight of a laptop battery can power it for 40 hours. A gun could quite happily run forever off a gas cylinder the size of a stubby lighter.

Not that I wouldn't expect 2070 and nanotechnology to have produced staggeringly efficient and large capacity batteries. The existence of cyberlimbs pretty much makes this mandatory.

My take on this would be to have low power gizmos like guns run forever, though some GMs might tweak it if they wanted. And I'd say the required fuel cells (if you wanted to use the idea) would be as common place as batteries, today. You'd have to be deep into the wilderness before you couldn't get them and you could carry lots, anyway. Commlinks et al, I'd give a few weeks before they died. Cyberlimbs could probably run for a month between charging or changing cells, mainly because I wouldn't want to punish players.
WhiskeyMac
I would say you'd have to be out in the wilderness for about 2-3 months with constant use of your smartlink/smartgun system, cyberware, etc. before your batteries ran dry. Why? Because micromanaging isn't always fun in an RPG much less real life. It's assumed during downtime that characters do certain things like go to the bathroom, reload their clips, clean their guns, etc. so why bother about the battery life of an item. Just my .02 nuyen.gif.
knasser

If you want to reconcile dramatic low-battery problems in the adventure and not wanting to mess up your game with micromanaging forever more, just have a wilderness run where the team are deprived of their normal equipment or it's not useful or something. Then have the team find an old arms cache. The weapons are good, but they've been lying dormant for over two years so the batteries are severely depleted. Scavenging around, they might get a bit more working, but who knows when they're going to give out? Shortage of ammo / battery life is a great way to bring about a change in game style for a little while...
Dranem
Well in SR3, most GMs I came across said that the jackpoints provided the power for the decks.... so your fibre optic connections could power/recharge any connected device.
Cars, if you have an electric or hybrid car, the GridLink helps recharge your car's power cells.

I would think that skinlink would work like USB devices do today: they get their power throught linked device.

With DNI interfaces and micro-power cells for cyberware and toys... I wouldn't be surprised if they could make batteries last serveral days, with some sort of induction pad to place on a recharging base - much like my electric toothbrush. It slots into the base holder, no pins or wires or sockets - induction recharge..
This method also makes devices remarkably water resistant as there's not sockets or openings in which water can seep into.
kzt
QUOTE (Dranem)
Well in SR3, most GMs I came across said that the jackpoints provided the power for the decks.... so your fibre optic connections could power/recharge any connected device.

That's an interesting idea, but absurd. 0.0003 watts just doesn't go very far.
dog_xinu
QUOTE
so your fibre optic connections could power/recharge any connected device.


NO. fibre doesnt transmitt electric current. only light. take it from someone that manages miles of fibre daily. no no no no. the benefit of fibre is that there is no current running on it so you can run it just about anywhere you want with no interfernce.

QUOTE
The way I always thought about was that the clip on a smart gun has a small rechargable powercell in it. You not only reload the clip but you also recharge it kind of like walkie talkies.


clips would be more than 5 nuyen.gif then. more like 25 nuyen.gif or 50 nuyen.gif . Plus not all guns are smartlinked. Most runners take smartlinked guns but not everyone has smartlink. Think of the average gun toting fool (not the average joe but the average gun toting fool) and they still may or may not have smartlink of any form or fashion.

most of my characters say things like "I am going to clean and do maintenance on my guns..." which I take for granted they will recharge the batteries/replace if necessary.

The one house rule (that I stole from someone here on the boards) is this:
Glitch: low battery
Critical Glitch: battery explodes (or melts or whatever).

you mileage will vary!
dog
Draconis
QUOTE (dog_xinu)
clips would be more than 5 nuyen.gif then. more like 25 nuyen.gif or 50 nuyen.gif . Plus not all guns are smartlinked. Most runners take smartlinked guns but not everyone has smartlink. Think of the average gun toting fool (not the average joe but the average gun toting fool) and they still may or may not have smartlink of any form or fashion.

50 nuyen.gif my tail. I think we're talking small cheap nonrechargable batteries in clips so the price wouldn't be nearly as high. And yes I know you'd have to change that battery (they'd make it difficult or not tell you how, think ipod here) or get a new clip. It's called planned obsolescence and Weapons World would love it as you constantly have to come in to get new clips.

If you don't have a smartlink so what? Then you don't want "charged" clips as they probably cost a little more but you could still use em in a gun that has no electronics or powered widgets of any kind.

I'm just hypothesizing here. I'm not saying it would be done, I'm saying it could be done.

Draconis
QUOTE (Dranem)

With DNI interfaces and micro-power cells for cyberware and toys... I wouldn't be surprised if they could make batteries last serveral days, with some sort of induction pad to place on a recharging base - much like my electric toothbrush. It slots into the base holder, no pins or wires or sockets - induction recharge..
This method also makes devices remarkably water resistant as there's not sockets or openings in which water can seep into.

Hey wait a minute my toothbrush recharges by induction as well! You don't have my toothbrush do you? eek.gif
laughingowl
Bahh the last until you glitch smile.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Bahh the last until you glitch

I have better uses for a Glitch than battery death.

I just think this kind of thing is too minor to worry about. Something akin to brushing your hair or going to the toilet. PCs are supposed to at least a little competent in their profession.
laughingowl
Not 100% postive for batteries to go bad on a glitch but (to me) it is a good 'possible' result for a glitch (not critical).

Attack still 'works' but a annoyance (possibly bad, possible very minor).

Works as well as a jam, scope knocked out of aling, etc.

The reason for the 'glitch' is as you mentioned I have far better things to do then track number of shots and 'battery' use unless there is a very solid reason for it to be very limited.

However since a glitch is 'undefined' a dead/failed/bad battery charge is a very legitmate use of a glitch. Now critical glitches are fun...

Had a NPC critcal glitch using a stun batton.... seems it broke and discharged INTO the NPC.

I agree trying to 'track' battery charges is not in the feel of a 'fast' flowing game.... though it is certainly possible (even for 'professionals' to get a bad battery, think batteries were good and fail to check, etc) so dead batteries on a glitch is a good 'possible' use of a glitch.

You say you have better uses for a glitch then battery death... Mind stating what.... to me battery death for a glitch is almost perfectly in line with the guidelines. Attack 'works' but an annoyance happens. Removing ones weapon (or atleast requiring a clip exchange) seems a pretty good example.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (dog_xinu)
QUOTE
so your fibre optic connections could power/recharge any connected device.


NO. fibre doesnt transmitt electric current. only light. take it from someone that manages miles of fibre daily. no no no no. the benefit of fibre is that there is no current running on it so you can run it just about anywhere you want with no interfernce.

Um, I know that Corning is working on an air-core fiber optic right now that is capable of transmitting electricity. Not sure of how it works entirely, but it's fiber optic with a air channel in the center with some odd latticework structure.

Chiefly being developed for undersea runs so they don't have to put down TWO cables during installation. Currently when they put down these undersea runs they have one fiber optic, and one electric to power the signal boosters they have to put every few miles.


-karma
Fortune
QUOTE (laughingowl)
You say you have better uses for a glitch then battery death... Mind stating what.... to me battery death for a glitch is almost perfectly in line with the guidelines.

My bad! I assumed you were stating that you would use a dead battery on every Glitch. I do agree that it is an interesting example of a Glitch, if only used once or twice on an entire campaign.

As to your comment about (good) professionals not being immune to getting bad batteries(etc.), I just have to say that I think it is more likely that a professional will check his equipment often enough (even replacing things earlier than necessary) that this type of situation would rarely happen to them.
Konsaki
While they might change out thier gear often, there is nothing saying that their new gear had a production flaw that the runner's cant see without tearing it open, and some of the items just cant be torn open. (batteries, bullets, grenades, C12)
Some stuff, you just dont know if it will work untill you try using it.
Fortune
What professional would risk his life with a weapon that he hasn't tested out beforehand?
Mistwalker
Weapons and gear fail at times, even if they past the factory, then your inspection.
Fortune
True enough. My real point being that I just don't think it is that major of a factor outside the (very) occasional mishap which, as has been suggested, could be covered by the Glitch rules. I don't believe that rules for Smartlink battery life will add a great new dimention to the Shadowrun RPG.
Mistwalker
I don't plan on have my players have problems with their batteries often, but I do like it as a possible glitch.

Like I said earlier, it was a question for a possible run that I am planning, where they will be out in the wilderness for a while, without any point to recharge things. So I am looking at what and when gear will start to fail due to no power.
eidolon
In that case, as simplistic as it might sound, have it happen if and when it's thematically and dramatically appropriate.

Easy to say...so hard to do. smile.gif

edit: Oh, and be sure to come back and let us know what you did and how it worked out. I'd be interested, anyway.
Mistwalker
Will do.
Jack Kain
Well think about how much power would a smart link actually use? It can do a lot of nifty things but I'd guess that battery would last several days before running out of power. It might also be a case of the battery lasts for weeks and stuff and is covered by life style costs.

If the PC's only turn on the smart link when battle starts They could go weeks or even months I'd guess before the power runs out. (combat doesn't last to long you know)
Mistwalker
I would think that most runners would leave them on all the time. Who wants to spend the first "action" turning on their smartlink? It could be a matter of life and death in a surprise encounter.
Jack Kain
Better to lose the first round, then the next several battles because your smart link ran out of power after spending 3 weeks in the wilderness.
Mistwalker
smile.gif
I do try and throw in a little common sense.
If runners are in the city, or about to do their thing, smartlinks are powered up.
If they are deep in the wilderness, with no opposition expected, and it is a long term thing (plus they have no extra batteries, or recharges), then I expect that the smartlinks will be turned off)
eidolon
You could just make it assumed that it's a free action to turn it on with a command over DNI/PAN/whatever at the beginning of a round.
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