I don't seem to see any posts complaining about magic so I though I would test the waters?
Me and my friends are very new to the system. We've played a TON of (the old) White-wolf world of darkness. We've played billions of years worth of d20. We've somehow been smitten by the shadowrun world (zomg so cool)
Anyways - we've not had very much magic vs magic interaction (read: zero). We've only really had 2 combative confrontations so far. 1) We've had magic used against us with no mage on our side. 2) We've had magic with our group, with no mage on the other side.
Both situations have raised some questions against a very particular type of spell:
Direct Damage. Manabolt (I guess powerbolt too..)
I said I would poll the audience. So lets look at the starting character potential.
6 magic + 5 sorcery + 2 specialty combat magic + 3 combat spellcasting focus +2 mentor spirit.
18 dice = 6 hits on average.
Average Defence = Willpower 3 = 1 hit on resist.
Total Damage Value:
Force 6 = 11 Boxes of Physical (Straight to the damage track). 3 stun drain - should be all resist by 10 dice of Willpower + logic lets say.
Force 12 (overcasting) = 17 Boxes of Physical (Straight to the damage track). 6 physical drain - half resisted.
-----------
So ... on over-cast - you've just one shot the local troll-phatty-muscle-superman.
What are people's opinions on the whole direct-damage all or nothing resist spells? Are our experiences skewed? Are we missing something? Is this just normal/acceptable?
Full Version: Is Magic overpowered or am I imagining things?
No posts complaining about magic? Wow....
Overcast drain is physical damage that cannot be healed by magic. Obscure, not explicit, yet true.
Guns have no drain.
400 BP <> 400 BP != 400 BP
or
Starting Character A > Character B > Character C > Character A
It is not inherent in the system mechanics and creation that all characters are equal and effective. It is not built into the mechanics of the system to make characters equally effective.
It is the play of the system and mechanics that can make characters equal and effective, should you choose to do so.
It's not requires that all characters are equal. It is required that all players have fun.
Overcast drain is physical damage that cannot be healed by magic. Obscure, not explicit, yet true.
Guns have no drain.
400 BP <> 400 BP != 400 BP
or
Starting Character A > Character B > Character C > Character A
It is not inherent in the system mechanics and creation that all characters are equal and effective. It is not built into the mechanics of the system to make characters equally effective.
It is the play of the system and mechanics that can make characters equal and effective, should you choose to do so.
It's not requires that all characters are equal. It is required that all players have fun.
I know it states stun damage (any source) can NOT be healed by magic. Where does it state that physical damage from drain can NOT be healed by magic?
Sam W.
Sam W.
A street samurai can do the same thing with a single weapon. I have seen some people get 20+ dicepools with a single weapon. Take your pick, a heavy pistol, assault rifle, or even a sniper rifle. That is going to be some sick damage. Though, mages of course can do a lot more than just damage. They have a lot of other spells that nearly make them capable of tackling any situation. Not only that, but with Street Magic you can now create your own spells.
Oh, and by the way, use Stunbolt and Stunball instead. It is resisted with willpower just like manaball, but has less drain. It is also more effective because everyone has less stun boxes than physical boxes. Also, you incapacitate them, instead of killing them. If you end up needing to kill them, just walk right up to the incapacitated victim and give him a lead injection to the head.
Remember, an incapacitated victim can be interrogated later using mind probe, then told to do something by using influence, and then told to forget all of it with alter memory. You can also do sick things with the dream spell.
Oh, and by the way, use Stunbolt and Stunball instead. It is resisted with willpower just like manaball, but has less drain. It is also more effective because everyone has less stun boxes than physical boxes. Also, you incapacitate them, instead of killing them. If you end up needing to kill them, just walk right up to the incapacitated victim and give him a lead injection to the head.
Remember, an incapacitated victim can be interrogated later using mind probe, then told to do something by using influence, and then told to forget all of it with alter memory. You can also do sick things with the dream spell.
One should also rememeber that just because you ALWAYS started with magic rating 6 and could cheaply buy spells at rating 6 SR4 is a lot more down to earth. Having a magic rating of 6 is not just unusual, it's even rare. Rating 4 magic is the old "6" but it doesn't really matter.
Any number cruncher can come up with extremes in shadowrun and it is up to the GM to get a GOOD explanation for such characters to exist depending on their gaming style.
Any number cruncher can come up with extremes in shadowrun and it is up to the GM to get a GOOD explanation for such characters to exist depending on their gaming style.
| QUOTE (Nerhesi) |
| I know it states stun damage (any source) can NOT be healed by magic. Where does it state that physical damage from drain can NOT be healed by magic? Sam W. |
Street Magic has in one of it's optional rules section the option to allow healing of phsyical overcast damage via magical healing. This implies the not optional rule.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) | ||
Street Magic has in one of it's optional rules section the option to allow healing of phsyical overcast damage via magical healing. This implies the not optional rule. |
Wow. Nice catch man. Thanks for sharing.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| A street samurai can do the same thing with a single weapon. I have seen some people get 20+ dicepools with a single weapon. Take your pick, a heavy pistol, assault rifle, or even a sniper rifle. That is going to be some sick damage. |
...yes, but you still get armour against he Street Sam's shot, & as I've seen many a time, a fist full of dice doesn't always guarantee massive successes
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...yes, but you still get armour against he Street Sam's shot, & as I've seen many a time, a fist full of dice doesn't always guarantee massive successes |
It doesn't guarantee, but it sure helps. By the same principle, a fist full "spellcasting" dice doesn't guarantee success either. If it's one thing that differentiates SR4 from the whitewolf we used to play it is how much more random it seems. With successes being only 33% of the available range on each die - you tend to want to stay away from combat a lot more - even more than in white wolf - where on average, you were looking at a 50% success range on each die.
Sam W.
| QUOTE |
| We've somehow been smitten by the shadowrun world (zomg so cool) |
I definitely agree with you, Nerhesi. Great genre. Great game.
| QUOTE |
| What are people's opinions on the whole direct-damage all or nothing resist spells? Are our experiences skewed? Are we missing something? Is this just normal/acceptable? |
Well, yes. You are missing a few things. Let me see if I can shed some light on the subject for you.
First of all, Magic can duplicate anything that technology can, and access to Magic can be purchased as a quality for 15 BPs. Essentially, that is the single most valuable/bang-for-your-buck 15 BPs that anyone can ever spend. Ever.
It has unlimited potential, and downsides that don't start off horribly bad to deal with, and are only mitigated with time.
Your direct damage spell example is a great example of where a huge dice pool will most often be applied to a single, small dice pool, where-as the mundane comparison will be a huge dice pool, applied to multiple, larger dicepools.
Of course, I don't want you to overlook Spirits/Elementals, and their awe inspiring uses, and powers.
This puts Shadowrun 4th Edition in an interesting position. Because Magic is already a very, very, very potent tool, the developers have several routes to take. The first is that they can leave Magic as the most powerful force in the latest edition, and people will choose their archetypes on love for the concept, rather than Out-Of-Character knowledge of Game Mechanics.
Of course, if the developers decided to mask their love affair with fantasy over technology, they could expand on the power of the more mudane pursuits, by releasing new munchkinized cyberware, or bioware, new anti-magic techniques, items, and qualities. However, this creates a new problem, as now without either elite hacking skills, bone-chilling degrees of augmentation, or fantastic Magic-Uber-Skillz, you'll end up with a PC that's sort of up shit's creek when it comes to game balance.
This leads to the ultimate solution: Express with your GM and fellow players your concerns about the potential abuse of Magic, and undue fluxuations in power level, and come to terms with In-Character fallout that isn't explicitly stated by raw numbers mechanics.
This forum has countless examples of proposed fallout for abusive Magic activity, but rehash some personal suggestions I've found helpful over the years, your GM can introduce dangerous threats that specifically target awakened characters, dramatically increase law enforcement response to unlicensed magical activity, or more heavily enforce background/aspected-background/mana-dead/warp/whatever zones.
Hope that helps.
Oh. And always GTMF.
(Geek the Mage First.)
| QUOTE |
| First of all, Magic can duplicate anything that technology can, and access to Magic can be purchased as a quality for 15 BPs. Essentially, that is the single most valuable/bang-for-your-buck 15 BPs that anyone can ever spend. Ever. |
LOL! Yes, theoretically anyone who puts 15BP into being a magician is a magician. However, it actually takes a lot more than that if you want to hae a chance of actually doing anything with your magic.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| LOL! Yes, theoretically anyone who puts 15BP into being a magician is a magician. However, it actually takes a lot more than that if you want to hae a chance of actually doing anything with your magic. |
LOL! Yes, theoretically anyone who puts 15BP into being a magician is a magician and has access to the unlimited potential of magic.
Which is why words like Bang-For-Your-Buck were strung together, rather than, say, Immediate-Game-Breaking-Power.
I'd hoped the point did not need to be made using the Triple Entente of bold, italics, and underline.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| Street Magic has in one of it's optional rules section the option to allow healing of phsyical overcast damage via magical healing. This implies the not optional rule. |
Interesting.
The SR4 core book, however, does not state, that Physical Drain cannot be healed, it's simply damage like any other, and the default assumption is, that it can be healed.
Probably an oversight from the SR3 -> SR4 conversion (since in SR3 you definitely could not heal drain).
Bye
Thanee
On Topic:
I think magic is fine in general. It's powerful, yes, but that is kinda the point. And as others have stated, it's not the only way to let the bodies drop.
What I do consider overpowered is overcasting. The drain should be higher (someone had a good house rule, where you only halve the Force up to your Magic for Drain purposes, the Force points that go beyond Magic are fully taken as Drain - i.e. Mag 4 a Mana Bolt 4 does 2 DV, a Mana Bolt 5 does 3 DV, a Mana Bolt 6 does 4 DV, and so on).
Bye
Thanee
I think magic is fine in general. It's powerful, yes, but that is kinda the point. And as others have stated, it's not the only way to let the bodies drop.
What I do consider overpowered is overcasting. The drain should be higher (someone had a good house rule, where you only halve the Force up to your Magic for Drain purposes, the Force points that go beyond Magic are fully taken as Drain - i.e. Mag 4 a Mana Bolt 4 does 2 DV, a Mana Bolt 5 does 3 DV, a Mana Bolt 6 does 4 DV, and so on).
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee) | ||
Interesting. The SR4 core book, however, does not state, that Physical Drain cannot be healed, it's simply damage like any other, and the default assumption is, that it can be healed. Probably an oversight from the SR3 -> SR4 conversion (since in SR3 you definitely could not heal drain). Bye Thanee |
It does however state that damage from overcasting can't be healed by magic.
I also recall a little rule that the max number of hits is equal ot the force of the spell.
Also you still get armor for numerious spells even if its only half impact.
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| What I do consider overpowered is overcasting. The drain should be higher (someone had a good house rule, where you only halve the Force up to your Magic for Drain purposes, the Force points that go beyond Magic are fully taken as Drain - i.e. Mag 4 a Mana Bolt 4 does 2 DV, a Mana Bolt 5 does 3 DV, a Mana Bolt 6 does 4 DV, and so on). |
Huh. I missed that, and my Search-Fu is looking a little weak.
You got a link to that thread, by any chance?
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| Which is why words like Bang-For-Your-Buck were strung together, rather than, say, Immediate-Game-Breaking-Power. |
Actually it's the close to the least bang for your buck you can get for a positive quality, because by itself Magician is almost completely useless. In standard english, bang-for-your-buck equates to return-on-your-investment. There is almost 0 return on the investment of 15 BP into the Magician quality. All it does is open up your access to a huge BP and karma sink.
It's the worst way possible for a huge number of characters to spend 15 BP. Saying it's the best bang for your buck is like saying that because a megacorp can grow from a
75,000 startup corporation the best bang for your buck is to put the 15BP into getting 75K and then investing that in a business. You've completely ignored all the other things required to change that startup investment into something worthwhile.
/cast control thoughts
you're imagining things.
you're imagining things.
What happends when you use stunbolt on a target using a stim pack.
I also think people are forgeting this little rule.
"A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force
serves as a limiter effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can
succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell. Overcasting"
Page 171
I also think people are forgeting this little rule.
"A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force
serves as a limiter effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can
succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell. Overcasting"
Page 171
They take the damage and ignore the penalties.
It's a given rule of life in SR that you require magical support to run for any length of time.
A single mage can provide counterspelling for his entire team, greatly upping their chances of survival.
20 dice pools are not at all uncommon on either magical or non-magical sides.
Magic seems to require the most compensation, if you're running against it. I don't know if that means overpowered, or just intricate. A sniper with AP rounds can be just as ugly, as can a tricked out Sammy with an Alpha. But magic requires you to have counterspelling, and to remember that line of sight is the be all end all of the mage.
And stim packs allow you to ignore stun penalties, that's all.
A single mage can provide counterspelling for his entire team, greatly upping their chances of survival.
20 dice pools are not at all uncommon on either magical or non-magical sides.
Magic seems to require the most compensation, if you're running against it. I don't know if that means overpowered, or just intricate. A sniper with AP rounds can be just as ugly, as can a tricked out Sammy with an Alpha. But magic requires you to have counterspelling, and to remember that line of sight is the be all end all of the mage.
And stim packs allow you to ignore stun penalties, that's all.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Actually it's the close to the least bang for your buck you can get for a positive quality, because by itself Magician is almost completely useless. In standard english, bang-for-your-buck equates to return-on-your-investment. There is almost 0 return on the investment of 15 BP into the Magician quality. All it does is open up your access to a huge BP and karma sink. It's the worst way possible for a huge number of characters to spend 15 BP. Saying it's the best bang for your buck is like saying that because a megacorp can grow from a 75,000 startup corporation the best bang for your buck is to put the 15BP into getting 75K and then investing that in a business. You've completely ignored all the other things required to change that startup investment into something worthwhile. |
No, you silly little man. That's a horrible analogy. I've got a much better one.
It's like this:
Without spending that 15 BP, you will never be able to have 0.000001 points of essence, and 24 points of magic, Move-By-Wire-XI, and a magical rail gun that fires bolts from hell out of your ass. At best, you will be allowed to have a bunch of skills and attributes maxed, and a bunch of cyberware
By spending that 15 BP, however, you increase you Potential nigh infinitely. (There's those silly underline/itallics/bolding, again.) And thus, allow yourself to not only reach a point in your little gamer life of having everything that a mundane could have, ever, end of story, three times over, but -also-, still, be able to flatulate up a force 57 fireball.
If I was exagerating anything, I apologize. I was just completely caught off guard by the complete insanity of your comment.
So. To recap. When you spend a mere 15 BP, you immediately open up the door to someday, somewhere, be an immortal God who wears slippers made out of baby seal skin. If you do not, you will forever wonder how people can somehow rise up to defend 4th Edition magic -not- being a powerful tool, that is pretty damn affordable when it comes down to it.
...15 BPs in High Pain Tolerance = no wound modifiers until the character actually goes down. Really nice when you end up taking a combo of Stun & physical. You still get your entire DPs for attacks, defence, getting away, etc...
That is a good investment.
That is a good investment.
That is a pretty good investment. Definitely agree. Plenty of utility, and not over-priced.
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| slippers made out of baby seal skin |
Cost: 15,000 Avail: 20F
I wouldn't say magic in Shadowrun is overpowered. I'd say it's very versatile though.
| QUOTE (Nerhesi) |
| I know it states stun damage (any source) can NOT be healed by magic. Where does it state that physical damage from drain can NOT be healed by magic? Sam W. |
The bizzare part about that is Adepts can heal Stun damage, in others. It's one of the powers in Street Magic.
are you sure they're healing damage, rather than transferring it they way they were able to in SOTA:64?
Well, you can heal stun damage, anyways, using First Aid.
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| It does however state that damage from overcasting can't be healed by magic. |
Could you tell me where it says that (page number would be great)?
Must have missed that, since it doesn't sound familiar.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| You got a link to that thread, by any chance? |
I'm afraid, no.
Bye
Thanee
I must both agree and disagree with the overpower statement, in contrast to mundane weapons, where the defender has the potentiel to match the number of dice the attacker has, when dealing with magic the defender does not, unless he is a magic wielder himself or has a friend with him who is. All characters can choose to defend better against a gun or other mundane weapon, but against magic only one thing help, that is having a better magician on your side. It kinda presents a problem having the Evil Arch nemesis laugh at the bullets the team sends his way only to see him wasted by the mage completly turning him into goo with 1 single spell.
Lets do a by the numbers example Lets pit the Occult Investigator against the Street Samurai.
We just do the match.
SS shoots with a Ares Predator IV, he is smartlinked.
OI cast a Stunbolt at level 4. (His current magic level)
Both have 8/6 armor on.
1.
SS: Attack With Gun: 4 (skill) + 7 (Agility) + 2 (Smartlink) = 13 Dice
OI: Defense: 3 (Reaction) + 7 (Armor-1) + 3 (Body) = 14 Dice
SS: Attack With Gun: 4 (skill) + 7 (Agility) + 2 (Smartlink) - 1 RC = 12 Dice
OI: Defense: 3 (Reaction) + 7 (Armor-1) + 3 (Body) - 1 Dodge penalty = 13 Dice
This means that the even before successes are counted the dice are stacked in OI's favor 10P - 2 Dice, however this single round of attacks would most likely put the OI out of business, because he will most likely get hit because of his weak defense.
2.
OI: Attack With Stunbolt: 3 (Spellcasting) + 4 (Magic): Dice 7
SS: Defence: 3 (Willpower): 3 Dice
This means that OI come out on top of this. 3 DV + 4 Dice.
So what does the math say? Well Uhm Magic isn't overpowered i guess, lets use the statistics
Shot 1: 4 success - Defense 1 Success, Damage now 5P + 3, resisted by 10 Dice, 3 successes gives 5P Damage
Shot 2: 4 success - Defense 0 Success, Damage now 5P + 4, resisted by 10 Dice, 3 successes gives 5P+1 Damage.
Total 11 in DV all physical
Stunbolt: 2 Success - Defense 1 Success, Damage 4+1
Total 5 in DV
Result Street Sam wins. Offcourse statistics almost never work, i have seen a 13 Dice dodge master get pounded by a 7 dice attacker.
Lets do a by the numbers example Lets pit the Occult Investigator against the Street Samurai.
We just do the match.
SS shoots with a Ares Predator IV, he is smartlinked.
OI cast a Stunbolt at level 4. (His current magic level)
Both have 8/6 armor on.
1.
SS: Attack With Gun: 4 (skill) + 7 (Agility) + 2 (Smartlink) = 13 Dice
OI: Defense: 3 (Reaction) + 7 (Armor-1) + 3 (Body) = 14 Dice
SS: Attack With Gun: 4 (skill) + 7 (Agility) + 2 (Smartlink) - 1 RC = 12 Dice
OI: Defense: 3 (Reaction) + 7 (Armor-1) + 3 (Body) - 1 Dodge penalty = 13 Dice
This means that the even before successes are counted the dice are stacked in OI's favor 10P - 2 Dice, however this single round of attacks would most likely put the OI out of business, because he will most likely get hit because of his weak defense.
2.
OI: Attack With Stunbolt: 3 (Spellcasting) + 4 (Magic): Dice 7
SS: Defence: 3 (Willpower): 3 Dice
This means that OI come out on top of this. 3 DV + 4 Dice.
So what does the math say? Well Uhm Magic isn't overpowered i guess, lets use the statistics
Shot 1: 4 success - Defense 1 Success, Damage now 5P + 3, resisted by 10 Dice, 3 successes gives 5P Damage
Shot 2: 4 success - Defense 0 Success, Damage now 5P + 4, resisted by 10 Dice, 3 successes gives 5P+1 Damage.
Total 11 in DV all physical
Stunbolt: 2 Success - Defense 1 Success, Damage 4+1
Total 5 in DV
Result Street Sam wins. Offcourse statistics almost never work, i have seen a 13 Dice dodge master get pounded by a 7 dice attacker.
Your example is broken. It should be
1st simple action
SS: 4 skill + 7 agility +2 smartlink = 13 dice (3-4 successes)
OI: 3 reaction = 3 dice (1 success)
damage: 6 base + 2-3 net successes = 8-9 damage
soak: 7 (armor-1) + 3 body = 10 dice = 2-3 successes = ~6 damage taken
2nd simple action
SS: "
OI: 3 dice -2 wound penalty = 1 die = 0 successes
damage: 6 base + 3-4 net successes = 9-10 damage
soak: 7 (armor-1) + 3 body = 10 dice = 2-3 successes = ~7 additional damage = dead OI
[sarcasm]
look how utterly weak that is compared to 1 spell (complex action) that might disable the target (and may very well damage the caster as well.)
[/sarcasm]
1st simple action
SS: 4 skill + 7 agility +2 smartlink = 13 dice (3-4 successes)
OI: 3 reaction = 3 dice (1 success)
damage: 6 base + 2-3 net successes = 8-9 damage
soak: 7 (armor-1) + 3 body = 10 dice = 2-3 successes = ~6 damage taken
2nd simple action
SS: "
OI: 3 dice -2 wound penalty = 1 die = 0 successes
damage: 6 base + 3-4 net successes = 9-10 damage
soak: 7 (armor-1) + 3 body = 10 dice = 2-3 successes = ~7 additional damage = dead OI
[sarcasm]
look how utterly weak that is compared to 1 spell (complex action) that might disable the target (and may very well damage the caster as well.)
[/sarcasm]
And that's just a heavy pistol (don't those do 5P?).
You could also take an Assault Rifle with EX-Ex ammo for a tasty 10P/-3AP per burst (plus net hits).
Of course, a Mage could also throw around Force 9-10 Stun/Mana Bolts, which disable pretty much anyone with just one net hit (which is almost guaranteed).
Bye
Thanee
You could also take an Assault Rifle with EX-Ex ammo for a tasty 10P/-3AP per burst (plus net hits).
Of course, a Mage could also throw around Force 9-10 Stun/Mana Bolts, which disable pretty much anyone with just one net hit (which is almost guaranteed).
Bye
Thanee
*shrug* my current character doesn't use guns atm, so I haven't really paid attention to the weapon stats.
Good point though...using non-standard ammo or a burst-fire capable weapon would have a good chance of killing/disabling the OI in the first simple action.
One net hit can be pretty tricky if there's any spell defense whatsoever - remember, it's almost never a one-on-one fight.
Good point though...using non-standard ammo or a burst-fire capable weapon would have a good chance of killing/disabling the OI in the first simple action.
One net hit can be pretty tricky if there's any spell defense whatsoever - remember, it's almost never a one-on-one fight.
| QUOTE (Thanee) | ||
Could you tell me where it says that (page number would be great)? Must have missed that, since it doesn't sound familiar. Bye Thanee |
Well, the implication is on page 31 in Street Magic. The rule isn't specifically stated, it just says
"Normally Drain cannot be healed by magical means, only by complete rest or mundane medical attention. For a less gritty campaign, allow damage from Drain to be healed or alleviated by magical means."
And I must say that our Mage was WAY overpowered before we enacted this rule. He was overcasting always then healing his drain. It was a joke.
| QUOTE (Nerhesi) |
| I don't seem to see any posts complaining about magic so I though I would test the waters? |
Your Search-fu is weak.
Oh, and if you think the magic is overpowered in SR, try the New World of Darkness. Mages can just roll some dice and make up a spell. We had some intermediate-level Mages that could teleport anywhere in the world, enchance their attributes to any level, read anyone's mind and restructure their memories... Our Storyteller lasted about 10 game sessions before quitting.
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| Without spending that 15 BP, you will never be able to have 0.000001 points of essence, and 24 points of magic, Move-By-Wire-XI, and a magical rail gun that fires bolts from hell out of your ass. At best, you will be allowed to have a bunch of skills and attributes maxed, and a bunch of cyberware |
Ah yes, insults. The first sign of a little mind finding itself out of it's league. LOL
Yes, those 15 BP give you lots of potential, but it requires a lot of resources to reach that potential. Unless you want magic to be your primary focus or you expect to be in a campaign long enough to do all your mundane things and then continue to gain karma to add to your magic, that is not the best place to put 15 BP. Generally potential is trumped by actuals when making cost-benefit analysis.
Obviously you disagree, and that's cool. IMX you're wrong. Perhaps your campaigns work differently. Given that you're talking about almost 0 essence on a character with 24 magic and rail guns out of his ass I have to assume that's true.
If so then by all means have every character be awakened if it increases your fun potential.
I don't know. Above and beyond raw damage, I always thought the most unbalancing thing about Magic was that it could duplicate everything that technology could do.
Are there any examples of things that technology can do, that Magic cannot?
Matrix access? That's about the only thing that pops into my mind.
It's always seemed like the Cyber-side writers were racking their brains to impliment cool new gadgets, and toys, while Magic-Side writers were like: "Awesome! That'll make a great spell. Thanks guy! And while we're at it, we should probably include a little bit of levitation, maybe some mind control and... Dude, you know what would be -so- awesome!? If we had an -armor- spell that would, like, make you glow and shit when you cast it!"
Cyberguys: "Well, we watched Ghost in the Shell and are implimenting -ruthenium polymers-!"
Magicguys: "Whatever man. We've had invisibility spells since D&D first edition."
Cyberguys: "Umm... Thermal dampening, to fool the infrared spectrum!"
Magicguys: "Yeah... hrmm... We'd better improve invisibility... I wonder what we should call that spell..."
Edit: Eddited to at a little more salt.
Are there any examples of things that technology can do, that Magic cannot?
Matrix access? That's about the only thing that pops into my mind.
It's always seemed like the Cyber-side writers were racking their brains to impliment cool new gadgets, and toys, while Magic-Side writers were like: "Awesome! That'll make a great spell. Thanks guy! And while we're at it, we should probably include a little bit of levitation, maybe some mind control and... Dude, you know what would be -so- awesome!? If we had an -armor- spell that would, like, make you glow and shit when you cast it!"
Cyberguys: "Well, we watched Ghost in the Shell and are implimenting -ruthenium polymers-!"
Magicguys: "Whatever man. We've had invisibility spells since D&D first edition."
Cyberguys: "Umm... Thermal dampening, to fool the infrared spectrum!"
Magicguys: "Yeah... hrmm... We'd better improve invisibility... I wonder what we should call that spell..."
Edit: Eddited to at a little more salt.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) |
| Oh, and if you think the magic is overpowered in SR, try the New World of Darkness. Mages can just roll some dice and make up a spell. We had some intermediate-level Mages that could teleport anywhere in the world, enchance their attributes to any level, read anyone's mind and restructure their memories... Our Storyteller lasted about 10 game sessions before quitting. |
We played the first few chapters of the nWoD Mage sample adventure from WW's website. At one point my mage with Fate repeatedly used a spell to find the bad guy. Basically I drove the car making turns at random, and we coincidentally found him. And that's jsust a sphere 1 or 2 ability (I don't recall which). It wasn't an exploit, because when I jokingly suggested it the GM said that it's actually one way the adventure expects you to get from point A to point B.
Mage is a fun game to play, but comparing the mundane to the supernatural in WoD is a joke. Granted, a mundane can still kill you with a gun if you lose init.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| We played the first few chapters of the nWoD Mage sample adventure from WW's website. At one point my mage with Fate repeatedly used a spell to find the bad guy. Basically I drove the car making turns at random, and we coincidentally found him. And that's jsust a sphere 1 or 2 ability (I don't recall which). It wasn't an exploit, because when I jokingly suggested it the GM said that it's actually one way the adventure expects you to get from point A to point B. Mage is a fun game to play, but comparing the mundane to the supernatural in WoD is a joke. Granted, a mundane can still kill you with a gun if you lose init. |
This is only kinda off-topic, right?
We had been playing nWoD for a few months already, so we kept our individual XP when Mage came out. Spending some XP gave my character Life 4 and Spirit 4, another player had Space 5 and Mind 4. The combo of Space 5 and Mind 4 allows the Mage to read anyone's mind, then teleport to any location, person or object they have ever encountered. So we basically needed to find a single low-level henchman and we could instantly find the boss and his hideout. With Space 2 you can cast spells on ANYONE as long as you have heard their name (granted, at hefty minuses).
My character could turn people into hamsters, turn himself into an elephant with enhanced attributes (like an elephant needs to be enhanced) and open up a portal to the Spirit World that only he and/or his buddies could use. Not to mention the horrible things he could do to Spirits or any living thing. And that was compared to a single Vampire on the team with Vigor 5 (ooo!) and a Werewolf with some pointless Gifts.
I think the biggest issue that people have with magic is that Mages can start off really powerful unlike many other games. That being said, it doesn't necessarily make them overpowered. The most important thing in any battle, whether there is a mage or not, is to be prepared and to get the jump on the bad guys.
I would contend that most any time that a group is able to identify the enemy mage before the mage gets to act, its likely to be a bad day for the mage. Mages tend to go down quick once identified.
The flip side of course is that if the mage is prepared he can make himself really hard to beat. For instance, its pretty hard to geek the mage if you can't see him. If the mage gets the jump on the group, then its likely going to be up to the group's mage to save the day.
As always the rule of Geek the Mage First applies. I've also found that its useful and wise to have variety on your side. It might be hard to shoot the mage that's hiding behind the van, or even in the van but invisible, but blowing up the van is likely to ruin the mage's day.
I would contend that most any time that a group is able to identify the enemy mage before the mage gets to act, its likely to be a bad day for the mage. Mages tend to go down quick once identified.
The flip side of course is that if the mage is prepared he can make himself really hard to beat. For instance, its pretty hard to geek the mage if you can't see him. If the mage gets the jump on the group, then its likely going to be up to the group's mage to save the day.
As always the rule of Geek the Mage First applies. I've also found that its useful and wise to have variety on your side. It might be hard to shoot the mage that's hiding behind the van, or even in the van but invisible, but blowing up the van is likely to ruin the mage's day.
| QUOTE (Cyberon) |
| Result Street Sam wins. Offcourse statistics almost never work, i have seen a 13 Dice dodge master get pounded by a 7 dice attacker. |
The statistics don't work very well with large dice pools because they're large dice pools. The hits-to-probability curve is a bell curve for all dice pool sizes, with tall, skinny curves for small ones and short, flat ones for large ones.
Your examples use dice pools around 13 dice. One would expect around three hits from a roll of that dice pool, but one only gets exactly four hits about a third of the time with thirteen dice. The majority of one's results are going to come up in the three-to-six range, and with larger dice pools, the standard deviation just gets wider and wider.
Actually, now that I think about it, the SR4 dice system is pretty good at rewarding higher pools without making it impossible to fail.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) |
| Your example is broken. It should be 1st simple action SS: 4 skill + 7 agility +2 smartlink = 13 dice (3-4 successes) OI: 3 reaction = 3 dice (1 success) damage: 6 base + 2-3 net successes = 8-9 damage soak: 7 (armor-1) + 3 body = 10 dice = 2-3 successes = ~6 damage taken 2nd simple action SS: " OI: 3 dice -2 wound penalty = 1 die = 0 successes damage: 6 base + 3-4 net successes = 9-10 damage soak: 7 (armor-1) + 3 body = 10 dice = 2-3 successes = ~7 additional damage = dead OI [sarcasm] look how utterly weak that is compared to 1 spell (complex action) that might disable the target (and may very well damage the caster as well.) [/sarcasm] |
I stand corrected, and i forgot that the SS was carying Explosive rounds, thats where the extra power comes from.
Please note that in essence i do not think of the magic user being overpowered because damage vice anyone who is gunning for him is going to take him out or at least make him waste his IP on a full defense, still licking wounds with a high wound modifier.
I can just note that when it comes to a spell contest, the mage will allways win (unless he has a really unlucky roll, butt offc. i have seen those too), simply because he has access to approx twice the dice than his opponent.
The problem with that is that it brings an unbalance in the run itself, because when you add a spell to the mix, you will need to put a mage or similar defense on the NPC's team, or simply have them gun for the mage for no apparent reason (unless it is obvious that he is the magic user)
As it stands if the NPC's get the jump on a magic user he will find himself digging his own grave fast, going full defense might save him with some lucky rolls, but basicly it won't take more than a single Combat Turn for an experienced gun wielder to take him out. However if the mage has time to prepare, if he thinks cleverly and stay out of harms way, the mage can single handedly take out all the opponents, or at least weaken them so much that it will be a walk for the rest of the team, and that is a lot of power.
.. Ooh and Gargs454 just made my point to...
I don't know. From my personal standpoint, it's just there doesn't seem to be anything unique that a mundane character can bring to the table. You've got to accept that on both sides of the coin, the potential for lethal damage to be dealt is there. And much of it hinges on initiative that -both- archetypes are capable of achieving.
But why play a mundane? What can you really -do- that a Mage can't?
Samurai: "I shoot guns."
Mage: "Yeah, I shoot guns too. And I cast fireballs to pick up chicks."
Samurai: "I got wired reflexes."
Mage: "Yeah, I don't like the detectability of cyberware scanners, so I just toss reflexes in my sustaining foci when I need what you have."
Samurai: "Well... shoot. I can set demolitions pretty well?"
Mage: "Mmm. Yeah, I dropped a few skill points in that myself. Though, I'm not really sure why, when I've got these fire elementals trailing behind me, you know?"
Samurai: "Did you check out my Ruthenium?"
Mage: "Yeah. Good call. I picked some up too. Cool stuff. Though, I thought we already went over the part where I remind you invisibility is kind of, you know, something I -do-."
Samurai: "Uh-huh... Well. At least I have disguise."
Mage: "Yep. You sure do. And if that doesn't work, I can always loan you a physical mask spell."
Samurai: "Man. Is there -anything- I can do, that you can't?"
Mage: "Well, technically no, -but- there's a silver lining to every rain cloud. From a generalist standpoint, you're more equipped to handle a broader range of tasks."
Samurai: "Ah-ha! And there's power in numbers!"
Mage: "Well, no. Not really. The more of you that get tossed together, the more you start to look the same. You're much better off using awakened specialists, as you generalists kind of lose your flair, when you're not just hanging out by yourself."
Samurai: "What do you mean?"
Mage: "I mean that it's better to have five specialists, each bringing a unique skill to the table, than a much of generalists, who are doomed to living averagely."
Samurai: "...Huh. I'm going to go inflict a critical wound to myself, now."
Mage: "I can heal that!"
Samurai: "*sigh*"
But why play a mundane? What can you really -do- that a Mage can't?
Samurai: "I shoot guns."
Mage: "Yeah, I shoot guns too. And I cast fireballs to pick up chicks."
Samurai: "I got wired reflexes."
Mage: "Yeah, I don't like the detectability of cyberware scanners, so I just toss reflexes in my sustaining foci when I need what you have."
Samurai: "Well... shoot. I can set demolitions pretty well?"
Mage: "Mmm. Yeah, I dropped a few skill points in that myself. Though, I'm not really sure why, when I've got these fire elementals trailing behind me, you know?"
Samurai: "Did you check out my Ruthenium?"
Mage: "Yeah. Good call. I picked some up too. Cool stuff. Though, I thought we already went over the part where I remind you invisibility is kind of, you know, something I -do-."
Samurai: "Uh-huh... Well. At least I have disguise."
Mage: "Yep. You sure do. And if that doesn't work, I can always loan you a physical mask spell."
Samurai: "Man. Is there -anything- I can do, that you can't?"
Mage: "Well, technically no, -but- there's a silver lining to every rain cloud. From a generalist standpoint, you're more equipped to handle a broader range of tasks."
Samurai: "Ah-ha! And there's power in numbers!"
Mage: "Well, no. Not really. The more of you that get tossed together, the more you start to look the same. You're much better off using awakened specialists, as you generalists kind of lose your flair, when you're not just hanging out by yourself."
Samurai: "What do you mean?"
Mage: "I mean that it's better to have five specialists, each bringing a unique skill to the table, than a much of generalists, who are doomed to living averagely."
Samurai: "...Huh. I'm going to go inflict a critical wound to myself, now."
Mage: "I can heal that!"
Samurai: "*sigh*"
Que?
Explosive rounds?
No, you were comparing the attack roll vs. the sum of the dodge roll and the soak roll - ignoring the base damage applied by the weapon.
Looking at that example again - the OI should have lost his 3rd die for getting shot at a second time.
Everyone has about twice the dice of their opponent except in melee combat (or a hyperspecialized dodging opponent)
Ranged attack: skill + agil
Ranged dodge: rea
Magic attack: skill + magic
magic defense: either a dodge (rea) or resistance (will)
see? a sum of two things rolled vs. one thing. The specialized attacker always has the advantage in SR4.
Explosive rounds?
No, you were comparing the attack roll vs. the sum of the dodge roll and the soak roll - ignoring the base damage applied by the weapon.
Looking at that example again - the OI should have lost his 3rd die for getting shot at a second time.
Everyone has about twice the dice of their opponent except in melee combat (or a hyperspecialized dodging opponent)
Ranged attack: skill + agil
Ranged dodge: rea
Magic attack: skill + magic
magic defense: either a dodge (rea) or resistance (will)
see? a sum of two things rolled vs. one thing. The specialized attacker always has the advantage in SR4.
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| But why play a mundane? What can you really -do- that a Mage can't? |
You're asking for the flame!!
Um, can't you just reverse the snarky attitude between those two imaginary players?
Mage: "I'm cool because I have fire spirits"
SS: "Oh yeah? Spirits can be banished! You can't banish a can of explosive foam, and you can't detect it without looking at it either! And, um, um, I have skillwires so I didn't even pay BP or Karma for my abilities!"
Mage: "Well, then I'm cool because I can turn invisible!"
SS: "That's nice. When you turn invisibile you're MORE likely to be detected by other Mages. Not the same with Stealth."
Mage: "Stealth? I can get Stealth, too! And a chameleon suit!"
SS: "Well, I can get Stealth, a chamemeon suit AND have extra Karma and money for other stuff! You have to spend all your Karma on foci!"
Mage: "Well at least I have stunball."
SS: "Shut up."
I had a number of individual responses.
They boil down to "No, you would have spent points on that if you weren't burning all your karma to bind spirits, initiate, learn new spells, and find foci."
Sammies can do all their stuff in high background count, without triggering wards.
Mages can do all their stuff in high security areas, without triggering sensors.
Both have a place. Trying to taking a fully buffed magician in to an area with minor magical protections is going to cause some serious problems.
There are also things like Focus addiction and background count, which are typically ignored. If you play in a world that's doesn't take advantage of all the restrictions on a mage, you will find them to be far better.
They boil down to "No, you would have spent points on that if you weren't burning all your karma to bind spirits, initiate, learn new spells, and find foci."
Sammies can do all their stuff in high background count, without triggering wards.
Mages can do all their stuff in high security areas, without triggering sensors.
Both have a place. Trying to taking a fully buffed magician in to an area with minor magical protections is going to cause some serious problems.
There are also things like Focus addiction and background count, which are typically ignored. If you play in a world that's doesn't take advantage of all the restrictions on a mage, you will find them to be far better.
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| I don't know. From my personal standpoint, it's just there doesn't seem to be anything unique that a mundane character can bring to the table. You've got to accept that on both sides of the coin, the potential for lethal damage to be dealt is there. And much of it hinges on initiative that -both- archetypes are capable of achieving. But why play a mundane? What can you really -do- that a Mage can't? Samurai: "I shoot guns." Mage: "Yeah, I shoot guns too. And I cast fireballs to pick up chicks." Samurai: "I got wired reflexes." Mage: "Yeah, I don't like the detectability of cyberware scanners, so I just toss reflexes in my sustaining foci when I need what you have." Samurai: "Well... shoot. I can set demolitions pretty well?" Mage: "Mmm. Yeah, I dropped a few skill points in that myself. Though, I'm not really sure why, when I've got these fire elementals trailing behind me, you know?" Samurai: "Did you check out my Ruthenium?" Mage: "Yeah. Good call. I picked some up too. Cool stuff. Though, I thought we already went over the part where I remind you invisibility is kind of, you know, something I -do-." Samurai: "Uh-huh... Well. At least I have disguise." Mage: "Yep. You sure do. And if that doesn't work, I can always loan you a physical mask spell." Samurai: "Man. Is there -anything- I can do, that you can't?" Mage: "Well, technically no, -but- there's a silver lining to every rain cloud. From a generalist standpoint, you're more equipped to handle a broader range of tasks." Samurai: "Ah-ha! And there's power in numbers!" Mage: "Well, no. Not really. The more of you that get tossed together, the more you start to look the same. You're much better off using awakened specialists, as you generalists kind of lose your flair, when you're not just hanging out by yourself." Samurai: "What do you mean?" Mage: "I mean that it's better to have five specialists, each bringing a unique skill to the table, than a much of generalists, who are doomed to living averagely." Samurai: "...Huh. I'm going to go inflict a critical wound to myself, now." Mage: "I can heal that!" Samurai: "*sigh*" |
...nice...
5 bonus karma for the wit.
almost could visualise it as a cartoon strip.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) |
| Que? Explosive rounds? No, you were comparing the attack roll vs. the sum of the dodge roll and the soak roll - ignoring the base damage applied by the weapon. Looking at that example again - the OI should have lost his 3rd die for getting shot at a second time. Everyone has about twice the dice of their opponent except in melee combat (or a hyperspecialized dodging opponent) Ranged attack: skill + agil Ranged dodge: rea Magic attack: skill + magic magic defense: either a dodge (rea) or resistance (will) see? a sum of two things rolled vs. one thing. The specialized attacker always has the advantage in SR4. |
I'm sorry if i get a little comfounded here...
But a Ares Predator IV has Damage: 5P and -1 AP modifier.
And if you shoot at someone and score 3-4 success of which he get 1 success with his reaction in the dodge, that still only gives you 5P + 2-3 successes giving a DV 7-8 for the shot, where does that 6P come from if it isn't explosive rounds. The calculation say that base DV of weapon + net successes equal DV
oh and i did not factor in the actual damage done to make a more clean comparison between the two.
Two Vs One is correct, however you forget one thing, defending against Melee or Ranged attacks you have the possibility to go on full defense, adding more dice to your defense pool. Against magic you do not have that option.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) |
| "Normally Drain cannot be healed by magical means, only by complete rest or mundane medical attention. For a less gritty campaign, allow damage from Drain to be healed or alleviated by magical means." |
I think the key to that statement is "normal" drain, hence stun damage.
I read that as you can still heal overcasting physical drain.
There is an adept power that allows you to heal stun damage.
When you overcast, there is the change that you will fail, glitch or critical glitch on your drain check. As well as having oppossing forces trying their best to kill you.
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