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Kagetenshi
I haven't experienced anything like the fabled Parisian rudeness any of the times I've been there, but I can definitely agree to the craziness of the drivers (though it's still better than Italy!). Fortunately, my days dodging Bostonian drivers left me adequately prepared for everything but a certain triumphal monument, which thankfully doesn't need to be tangled with anyway.

~J
GodaimeSama
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I haven't experienced anything like the fabled Parisian rudeness any of the times I've been there, but I can definitely agree to the craziness of the drivers (though it's still better than Italy!). Fortunately, my days dodging Bostonian drivers left me adequately prepared for everything but a certain triumphal monument, which thankfully doesn't need to be tangled with anyway.

~J

Ha, been to Italy - yes, drivers are crazy, but try Greece. My cab driver was going 120 or 130 mph on the freeway, weaving in and out of cars. When I was driving myself and stopped at a stoplight, I got honked at by everybody behind me. And motorcycles have the right-of-way. Always, no matter how illegal what they're doing is.

I personally think that the stereotypes against French people is just the American way of rebutting percieved French stereotypes of Americans. Plus the Americans are pissed that they generally won't speak English to you.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (GodaimeSama)
Ha, been to Italy - yes, drivers are crazy, but try Greece.  My cab driver was going 120 or 130 mph on the freeway, weaving in and out of cars.  When I was driving myself and stopped at a stoplight, I got honked at by everybody behind me.

...sounds a lot like Portland OR.

Also drivers here don't seem to know what that little lever on the steering column is for, y'know, the one that makes these lights blink to tell people which way you are turning.

I think when they see those lights flashing on their instrument panel they believe is something wrong with the motor...

...that is when they aren't on their cell phone and actually paying attention.
GodaimeSama
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
Also drivers here don't seem to know what that little lever on the steering column is for, y'know, the one that makes these lights blink to tell people which way you are turning.

I don't even think they exist in most other countries around the world. Never saw them once in Greece, or Mexico, or Colombia, or any of the other countries I've been to. Just didn't happen.
Butterblume
QUOTE (GodaimeSama)
I personally think that the stereotypes against French people is just the American way of rebutting percieved French stereotypes of Americans.  Plus the Americans are pissed that they generally won't speak English to you.

Now, that is a typically american view.
GodaimeSama
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Nov 1 2006, 12:54 PM)
QUOTE (GodaimeSama)
I personally think that the stereotypes against French people is just the American way of rebutting percieved French stereotypes of Americans.  Plus the Americans are pissed that they generally won't speak English to you.

Now, that is a typically american view.

...That's what I was implying. Sorry if you missed that. I said 'percieved French stereotypes.'

The idea was that Americans think that the French hate them, and so they've decided that they're going to hate the French too.

And about the language-speaking thing, I personally think it's stupid to go to another country and expect them to speak your language. Whenever I visit another country I try to learn their language, at least a little, in an attempt to be respectful.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (GodaimeSama @ Nov 1 2006, 12:07 PM)
yes, drivers are crazy, but try Greece.

I never saw any crazy driving while I was in Greece (I spent most of my time away from major roads), but I do remember the clusters of memorials at pretty much every significant turn in the road (for reference, these memorials are put up for the sites of fatal crashes, and IIRC it isn't customary to put up more than one for a given person).

Godaime: I'd say the other way around, myself.

~J
GodaimeSama
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Godaime: I'd say the other way around, myself.

Quite possible.

However, I have little knowledge of the French - and I grew up in a typical American family, where the French are the 'scum of the earth' because they 'hate America.' According to my father, at least.

So from that, I assumed that it must be that way for most American families - they hate the French because they think the French hate America.
Fortune
QUOTE (Crossfire)
It's funny because I have the same feeling about people from Montreal... (sorry to all the dumpshockers from Mtl...). I don't feel like they are actually rude but more like they think they're from the (cultural) centre of the world

It isn't just you. Montreal is pretty much as you say ... with the rest of Quebec being quite a bit better (big statement from an Leafs fan! wink.gif ). In fact, the Quebec province's parallel to France is quite interesting.
Fortune
QUOTE (Skarn Ka)
As a French who's just settled in Paris, coming from the south, I have to agree with some things here but I'm just amazed at how "Parisian" stereotypes can be applied to a whole people by some folks.

Well, that's kinda what stereotypes are for. wink.gif

Seriously though, I'm not meaning to give offence. All I have to go on are my 7 visits to Paris, and quite a bit of world travelling for comparison. smile.gif
Butterblume
QUOTE (GodaimeSama)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Nov 1 2006, 12:54 PM)
QUOTE (GodaimeSama)
I personally think that the stereotypes against French people is just the American way of rebutting percieved French stereotypes of Americans.  Plus the Americans are pissed that they generally won't speak English to you.

Now, that is a typically american view.

...That's what I was implying. Sorry if you missed that. I said 'percieved French stereotypes.'

I think you missed my point wink.gif. To imply that the stereotypical french arrogance is created by the way the french sees americans is pretty ridiculous. That prejudiced view is pretty common in europe. What I was pointing at was the self centered view of some americans.
Also, I don't think the french in general hate america - that would be news to me.

On another note, after visting Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Holland, Portugal, Spain (and some of the smaller countries), the most friendly people I met were the Dutch and the Portugese. Somehow I never made it to Italy, Switzerland or the UK, or the now accessible former Warsaw Pact States.
GodaimeSama
QUOTE (Butterblume)

I think you missed my point wink.gif.

Heh, sorry, it seems I most certainly did.
Kagetenshi
I think US citizens hate the French because there's a secret longing to still be spelling words like "colour" and "characterise" correctly. Had it not been for the French, we would be linguistically pure wink.gif

~J
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I think US citizens hate the French because there's a secret longing to still be spelling words like "colour" and "characterise" correctly. Had it not been for the French, we would be linguistically pure wink.gif

~J

I always thought it was the accents personally.

Now go away or I shall taunt you again, you silly English Ki...nigits!
Butterblume
Whats wrong with colour or armour ? grinbig.gif
Kagetenshi
They're spelled correctly, as opposed to having letters missing for no particular reason.

~J
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I think US citizens hate the French because there's a secret longing to still be spelling words like "colour" and "characterise" correctly. Had it not been for the French, we would be linguistically pure wink.gif

~J

nah, the Brits still put needless 'u's in their words.
GodaimeSama
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

nah, the Brits still put needless 'u's in their words.

Don't forget the Canadians!
Fortune
QUOTE (GodaimeSama)
Don't forget the Canadians!

And the Australians. wink.gif

At least the Canadians teach both versions in many schools.
Dog
I only make a point of it when I'm trying to write "properly." When I'm writing my own notes, those U's come and go.

And I say "eh" a lot. But I don't hear the difference in words like "mouth," "south" and "about".

But to try to bring this back on topic, or at least back to SR relevance:

Are there any new in-game stereotypes that anyone has come up with? Do folks from the UCAS have conversations like this about CASsies? Seattleites?

(...and I'm praying that this does not turn into RL bashing...)
Snow_Fox
I expect the nick names steroetypes between UCAS and CAS would be similar to RL terms today between north and south. Aztlan would probably get the ugly hispanic terms, getting really ugly in CAS.

California? hmm. as an east coast girl we view it a the land of breakfast cereals- "full of fruits, nuts and flakes" but who knows if it would still be like that with CFS.
PlainWhiteSocks
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
California? hmm. as an east coast girl we view it a the land of breakfast cereals- "full of fruits, nuts and flakes" but who knows if it would still be like that with CFS.


This made me laugh so loud everyone around me stopped (at work). Cali is indeed the great land of breakfast cereal. Unfortunately they're all imported.

Back on topic, kinda, almost. I think I'm on the same conspiracy list as WR. Paris seemed full of nice people. Didn't get run over. Asked for directions and had a guy find someone who spoke English for me. Great night life. Either it's a conspiracy or people have pity for the really dumb looking clueless tourist (me).

To the original post, I wonder what happens to the Parisians when they go to Japan? Are they freaked out by the niceness? Do they freak out the Japanese? Or is it more of a "when in Rome" thing?





Snow_Fox
As a group in rl today, Japanese are xenophobic and racist. on vacation or business outside Japan they open up a bit but back in Japan culture is strickly regulated and the nail that sticks out is hammered back into place.
If you don't speak japanese you are screwed. Now there can be and are exceptions but that is the general rule of thumb.

For my sources my best friend is Japanese-American, I have two more friends, both white, who are in Japan teaching english.
Dog
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
As a group in rl today, Japanese are xenophobic and racist. on vacation or business outside Japan they open up a bit but back in Japan culture is strickly regulated and the nail that sticks out is hammered back into place.
If you don't speak japanese you are screwed. Now there can be and are exceptions but that is the general rule of thumb.


You could probably substitute all kinds of nationalities in there and still be accurate. A flaw of human nature, I suppose.
Kagetenshi
Indeed, though the fact that Japan is not a melting pot and is largely single-ethnicity means there's simply no hope of just "blending in" for pretty much any outsider—you wear your outsider status emblazoned on your skin. Contrast that with, say, the US, where if you dress right no one can tell you aren't from here on sight.

Usual caveat about posting-while-mostly-asleep goes here.

~J
Snow_Fox
Exectly, unlike the Us or even western Europe where there is lots of merging nad travel, Japan is still pretty much one ethnic gorup. They don't even want to let in many other asian groups as laborers. It resultys in a place where non-Japanesae really stand out, though DLN has said that even though she is ethnicvally 100% Japanese, she has been told by her parents and grandparents she is too american and owuld stand out on a Japanese train platform as 'different" and so owuld be givne a margine.
Kagetenshi
Most places it's probably worse if you're of the local ethnicity but haven't lived there. I know I've heard several stories about second-generation China-to-US immigrants going to China and feeling all sorts of out of place, because they aren't given the leeway someone obviously different is about not knowing language, customs, etc.

~J
Grinder
The same can be said about young turks here in Germany. When they travel to Turkey the are seen as "germans" and treated accordingly: as strangers. They don't belong to a group, neither are they accepted by germans nor by turks (in Turkey). Trapped between two worlds, so to say.
fistandantilus4.0
I feel the same way at my in-laws strangely.....
Dog
As a pretty typical North American white boy, "ethnic" belonging is kind of a strange thing. I don't identify with any of the three countries that my grandparents came from. Yet by most accounts, I am still seen as non-native to the land I was born in. My country is proudly multi-cultural, but I would have a very difficult time describing what "culture" I belong to. See, I have an idea of what a German is like, or a Turk, or a Parisienne. (It might not be correct, but I have one.) But to say that I'm a Canadian only tells you my nationality, I could still be practicing any other culture in the world... but I don't.

It's weird. Good and bad in ways.

I had an interesting debate with a prof at university who often referred to my "white culture." I kept asking her to describe what that was...
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Dog)
I had an interesting debate with a prof at university who often referred to my "white culture." I kept asking her to describe what that was...

Did she?

I have a it a bit easier I suppose. My family name is scottish, we go to the scottish games, pretend to knwo about our "heritage", and no one really calls us on it because we can describe the caber toss. woo hoo.
Kagetenshi
I belong to geek culture.

~J
Dog
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Did she?

No. Didn't even try.

Kagetenshi's got it right, though. New non-ethnic cultures are emerging. Maybe there's some hope, then.
DV8
I only just read the article in the original post just now, and I have to say that I love Paris. It's the only city in the world I've ever been hit by a car...while walking on the sidewalk. smile.gif
Blade
I hope the driver complained about you not paying attention wink.gif

That's why we're rude to strangers, they keep doing stupid things like walking on the sidewalk when we're driving on it grinbig.gif

Actually, I don't think French are especially rude, it's mostly culture shock. French culture have some elements of "Latin culture" (but "Latin culture" may not mean the same thing in America), they tend to be hot-blooded while people raised in "anglo-saxon" culture will tend to be cold-blooded. That's why many French will insult you if you bump into them while you were walking and looking the other way at that Parisienne. He doesn't hate you, he doesn't want to be rude, he's just expressing himself and releasing his emotions.

This is also why French are sometimes seen as xenophobes (well sadly some French are nowadays because of political extremes blaming strangers for everything) and full of themselves. Many French enjoy complaining. They complain about everything they can, they even complaign about French complaining about everything. But they are proud of complaining. As I once heard : "when a new idea comes out, Americans seek ways to get money out of it, French seek how it may fail." And looking for signs of failure is also a way to avoid problems and to change things for the best.
That's why you can often hear French complaining about other Nations or strangers. But that doesn't mean they don't like them. That doesn't mean that they prefer themselves either : French also complain about their own country and about French.

There are also some things that may be seen as rudeness by strangers but are totally normal to French just because of culture. For example, in France if you wait in a line and see a friend up ahead in the line there's nothing wrong with going past everyone to stand with him in the line (well, if you do it too harshly, you may get insulted for bumping into other people or because they're bored of waiting). In some countries, this will be seen as rude.

And yes, Parisian are reckless drivers (but in urban areas only, they're totally lost when they leave the city).
DV8
I think you're spot-on, Blade. This is a "simple" case of culture-differences. You don't go abroad and think that everyone is going to be like you are, do you? No, you go because you know that you're going to be put in an unpredictable situation. If you don't, then you're perhaps a bit naive, but most certainly up for a dissappointment.
eidolon
That's an interesting point. In NY, for example, I didn't expect everyone to wave at passers by the way that drivers do where my parents live (smalltown, AR). But I also didn't go there expecting the "typical asshole that is portrayed on TV". I went there, and let people show me what they were like, and I thought they were great.

There are good people and jerks everywhere. Recognize those individuals that you have contact with for what they are, not as representatives of an entire culture. smile.gif
Dog
Group hug!
Grinder
rotfl.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (DV8 @ Nov 8 2006, 03:21 AM)
I think you're spot-on, Blade. This is a "simple" case of culture-differences. You don't go abroad and think that everyone is going to be like you are, do you? No, you go because you know that you're going to be put in an unpredictable situation. If you don't, then you're perhaps a bit naive, but most certainly up for a dissappointment.

I disagree, in that while it may be a universal phenomenon, from my own personal experiences with a fair number of different cultures around the world, it does seem to be taken to the extreme by Parisiennes (but not necessarily other french peoples). Since my own experiences and opinions about Parisienne rudeness seem to be mirrored on such a large scale by people from almost all other cultural backgrounds, I find the 'cultural differences' argument to be somewhat lacking, or maybe just a convenient excuse.
Warmaster Lah
Wow this thing still going?

smile.gif
Snow_Fox
Nah, it ended weeks ago.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 7 2006, 05:34 PM)
QUOTE (DV8 @ Nov 8 2006, 03:21 AM)
I think you're spot-on, Blade. This is a "simple" case of culture-differences. You don't go abroad and think that everyone is going to be like you are, do you? No, you go because you know that you're going to be put in an unpredictable situation. If you don't, then you're perhaps a bit naive, but most certainly up for a dissappointment.

I disagree, in that while it may be a universal phenomenon, from my own personal experiences with a fair number of different cultures around the world, it does seem to be taken to the extreme by Parisiennes (but not necessarily other french peoples). Since my own experiences and opinions about Parisienne rudeness seem to be mirrored on such a large scale by people from almost all other cultural backgrounds, I find the 'cultural differences' argument to be somewhat lacking, or maybe just a convenient excuse.

That is pretty much what I thought.
DV8
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (DV8 @ Nov 8 2006, 03:21 AM)
I think you're spot-on, Blade. This is a "simple" case of culture-differences. You don't go abroad and think that everyone is going to be like you are, do you? No, you go because you know that you're going to be put in an unpredictable situation. If you don't, then you're perhaps a bit naive, but most certainly up for a dissappointment.

I disagree, in that while it may be a universal phenomenon, from my own personal experiences with a fair number of different cultures around the world, it does seem to be taken to the extreme by Parisiennes (but not necessarily other french peoples). Since my own experiences and opinions about Parisienne rudeness seem to be mirrored on such a large scale by people from almost all other cultural backgrounds, I find the 'cultural differences' argument to be somewhat lacking, or maybe just a convenient excuse.

Just to clear this up; I wasn't talking specifically about rude Parissians, but more broadly. People too often go abroad and have their (largely negative) opinions at the ready. It's like saying that wearing a burqa is a restriction of freedom; it is in the eyes of some, in the eyes of others it's quite the opposite. Horses for courses, and all that.
Fortune
Fair enough.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Exectly, unlike the Us or even western Europe where there is lots of merging nad travel, Japan is still pretty much one ethnic gorup. They don't even want to let in many other asian groups as laborers. It resultys in a place where non-Japanesae really stand out, though DLN has said that even though she is ethnicvally 100% Japanese, she has been told by her parents and grandparents she is too american and owuld stand out on a Japanese train platform as 'different" and so owuld be givne a margine.

Considering just how often a couple of my Chinese and Filipino friends are mistaken as being Japanese, by Japanese, in Japan, I'd say that statement has a very hefty dose of hyperbole.

I think the real point is, 12 people a year is too small a number to draw any sort of conclusions from, aside from the fact that it is a small enough number for each of them to be whacko, hopelessly ignorant, or so extraordinarily air headed that they thought Disney's 'Beauty and the Beast' was a realistic depiction of daily Parisean life.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
Considering just how often a couple of my Chinese and Filipino friends are mistaken as being Japanese, by Japanese, in Japan, I'd say that statement has a very hefty dose of hyperbole.

In my experience, that's unusual. I know several people who can reliably tell with brief visual inspection what region of East Asia someone is from.

~J
Sandoval Smith
Yeah, there are physiological differences, but those aren't always appearent at a glance, appearently, especially if there's some white dude standing next to them. I can tell the difference between, just to pick three, Japanese, Korean, and Chinese, but not just from the way they stand at a disctance. The statement that 'someone can tell you're not Japanese' just from the way you stand on the platform is bunk.
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