I like Horrors PROVIDED THAT THEY ARE RESTRICTED TO EARTHDAWN AND NOT BROUGHT INTO SHADOWRUN.

There's no reason to bring 'em to Shadowrun.

I like using Horrors as a threat in game. There's no need to bring up the fourth world ties at all if you don't want to.

yeah, that's one thing to keep in mind--horrors aren't an ED invention. they were in SR before ED was ever published.

People who dislike Horrors don't want to be reminded of that. They want other of their support group to say,"Keep the Horrors out of my Shadowrun." No, they don't want to hear inconvenient truths.

Keep your Horrors out of my Earthdawn!

~J

well, while it's true that horrors were introduced in SR, they were defined in ED. i don't mind having ancient, eldritch, evil beings trying to cause bad things to happen in SR. that doesn't mean i want Bonecrown, Ysgarthe, or other horrors from ED in SR.

So, um, Ida know.... don't use them?

No No, if I'm not gonna have it in my campaign, everyone else shouldn't either... or I'll yell at them for having it too!

oops! mistook this for a thread about what we think of the horrors. won't make that mistake again!

Some of the Horrors, as defined, can be easily fit into SR with minimal modification. Others cannot be.

Some lesser Horrors (Gnashers, Baggi, Skullworms) are perfect for meeting in a dread dark place at night.
Some named Horrors are just 'not exactly evil' enough to be major behind the scenes players. Bonecrown as a corporate exec working simply to expand his influence, for example. He feeds off of loyalty, after all, not suffering. Nemesis is another good example. One can make Nemesis their fixer and not even notice any difference really.

Other Horrors can provide great flavor when diluted and not encountered directly.

For example, an urban legend about a matrix vixen whose cyberlovers are carved up in artistically bizarre ways can be spun from a typhoid-Mary like victim of Chantel's Horror. (Yes, Kage, I know that it isn't CH's MO exactly but it is cool and has a nice J-Horror feel to it that is so popular these days)

Santa Clause? Really Giftbringer.

The real problem with having Horrors in SR is The Scourge, because if that happens then everything is pretty much screwed. But, one can divorce the Horrors from The Scourge without losing too much flavor. Instead of great conspiracies to bring them all over early, you can have a few that were able to prematurely slip through in numbers too small to cause major damage (after all, any single* Horror can be taken out by a small band of skilled adepts, even Verjigorm. The problem with the Scourge is that there were trillions of them pouring out from the metaplanes.)

Wraiths and Nomads in work quite well as a "minor Horrors" as they are implied to be. What makes the Horrors work in SR is not that they are some eldrich evil. What makes Horrors work is that they are inherently selfish and they just happen to feed off of people (in the same way blood spirits just happen to feed off of people and insect spirits just happen to inhabit people). Each of them wants to feed. So what? I can get along pretty well with just about any Horror so long as I'm not the guy that it is feeding on.
Its like Grande Zombies, Ghouls, and Vampires. If they ain't eating me then I don't care. You can even let them vote if you want to.

*I would not classify Ristul as a "single" anything.

true enough. i don't use 'em. anybody who does is Wrong and Bad and Against God.

Personally I dont like the horrors for much of the same reason dragons and the IEs never really play a part in our games. They are world changers. Everthing written about them in the fluff leads to world changing things. When we were introduced to SR, we played low level runners, not a presidental kick aquad or prefessional corporate assassins.

Which is fine if you like that sort of game. But it seems a bit strange to us (my group). If a dragon like Dunky hires you, and the world hangs in the balance on your success or failure, why would he hire a bunch of street level mooks, and why wouldnt he give you all the gear and stuff you could possibly need to make sure it happens? To play that sort of game the group should sit down and make a team specifically for a game like that. Background history and all.

Horrors just lend themselves to that sort of game even more. And it almost forces the group to be more magical then the world seems to say is the norm. Sure we are runners so we have a tendency to run into magic more then the average citizen. But if you are running into horrors all the time, the group will start playing nothing but mages and such.

We are much happier playing street level runners, that have to deal with gangs, organized crime, local politics and mid level corporate back stabbing. Occasionaly getting swept up in some defining moment, but not a world changing moment.

Its why we dont play the written adventures also. Well mostly yhe ones that came out later, like blood int he boardroom and brainscan.

And who really wants to play against a bad guy that cant be beat solely for the fact that they are canon and are cooler then you? Sure killing a dagon is pretty impossible, but if by chance I could kill one why not? Fighting a bad guy youll never beat isnt fun, to me anyway. I dont mind being beat by a bad guy thats smarter or luckier then me, even better skilled, but not because killing him would completely alter the game and shouldnt be killed.

Actually, if a dragon like Dunkie hires you then there is a good chance that it is because he is yanking your hoop around for his own amusement and/or profit margin. Remember Super Tuesday? Dunkie hires the PCs for a big run that turns out to be nothing more than a test of his new VR toy.
You can tell small personal stories with dragons and IEs if you really want too. They can't be epic all of the time. The same is true of Horrors.

As for enemies that cannot be beaten an dhow fun they are, remember that people do play Call of Cthulhu.

I agree with Kagetenshi.

And Hyz, nothing in Super Tuesday states that the characters are working for Dunklezahn. They are hired by Carla Brooks, who makes some statements on the Big D's behalf. He's aware of the job, but it doesn't say that it's his idea or even if he's footing the bill. It could be Brooks's idea.

Also, nothing says that they're testing the VR system. In fact, it mentions that several runner teams have already gone through the scenario. They could be testing for different approaches to what will be a run in the meat world, or they could be testing the runners themselves.

There's lots of possibilities. Maybe Brooks was in on the assassination conspiracy at that point; they were planting a bomb on a diplomatic limo, after all....

And I'm a firm believer that villains can be thwarted and beaten without ever being met face-to-face. In fact, story wise, I prefer it.

I also like the fact that horrors are largely unknown. The horror book documents some of the better known ones, but there are so many, in such diversity, I can make up any sort of crazy bad guy and say "he's a horror!", giving me literary freedom where otherwise I would be largely constrained by the canon universe as it stands. I actually prefer horrors over most magical threats because most magical threats can ONLY be beaten by mages. A horror doesn't necessarily have that benefit.

I was thinking lowering entropy in a closed system, but yeah.

~J

Unless someone does something to throw the cycle out of whack.

Imagine, if you will, an alternate shadowrun setting where Dunk's gambit back '58 failed. Mr. darke's bridge is built, the horrors come across early.

What would happen next? How would it change the setting. Who would stay, whou would go, who would fess up and help people survive, and who would ally themselves with the new darkeness? Would the new technology the mundanes have crafted give them the edge to hold back the horrors?

Not Shadowrun in the surest of terms, but one hell of a campaign concept.

But the real question in that campaign is: could we win?

/me runs like hell

No

~J

Actually we could, in that campaign. It wouldn't even be difficult because the Horrors can only cross over en mass at a Bridge at this point in the mana cycle.
This actually give us an obvious bottleneck at which they can be attacked.
Remember that the whole point of the Rites of Passage and Protection was the ward against metaplanar incursions. The ability to pop out of the metaplanes anywhere at any time is what made the Horrors so dangerous. You couldn't defend against the Scourge with normal wards but you can defend against a bridge with such wards.

Put the most powerful ward that can be created around the bridge and then build a military based around it, keep a team of double-digit initiate combat mages with ward permissions and heavy artillery support on call 24-7. The mages can cast through the ward but the Horrors will have to attack it, meaning that the mages will be able to take out several minor Horrors at a time with area combat spells while the big bad Horrors are more likely to spoof the wards instead of breaking them. Remember, it isn't the big Named Horrors that we have to worry about. They're powerful, yes, but they are few and they are subtle (with some exceptions). It is the teeming masses of Unnamed that make the Scourge so dangerous. They overwhelm with numbers and that ain't good. But with such a bottleneck their numbers really don't matter, a single area combat spell can hit hundreds at a time.

Also consider that very few named Horrors would want the Scourge to happen again if they could get through; its just too much competition. Being alone in the Namegiver's world is like being a kid alone in the candy store.

Astral nuke them! Nuke them, I say! Go Humans! Raargh! Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!

(I think I'm channeling the spirit of Minsc. Make way villany, hero coming through!)

Hmmm... I was thinking along the same lines. If it's the end of the world type illness, just a few megaton of nukes will help the medicine go down...

You disagree? Based on what?

A canon Scourge will happen the moment FanPro decides it's profitable, no sooner and no later. A homebrew Scourge will happen as soon as the GM decides it would be lots of fun, also no sooner or later.

It's not cynicism, it's realism. As a company FP won't pull any major changes like that without thinking they're going to be very profitable. Likewise, GMs won't pull major changes like that without the belief in large profits. The only difference is the measure of wealth to base the profits on. One is money, the other fun.

Feh, if your going to be all capitalist like that, then you can define any positive outcome as "Profit", but I think that's a perversion of the term. "Net gain in fun" indeed.

You don't do things because you see some sort of benefit in doing them? So, like, maybe you game because it won the coin toss against suicide this week?