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emo samurai
I get mixed messages about your opinions of the Horrors. You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit, but they were voted the best magical threat in my threats poll. So do they rock, or do they suck, in your collective opinion?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (emo samurai)
You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit

We do? Since when?

~J
emo samurai
I remember a lot of times people did this... I don't remember when.
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
We do? Since when?

You took the words right out of my mouth.
emo samurai
Well... I guess I'm wrong...
Angelone
I for one don't like them as Shadowrun antagonists. Didn't like the whole SR/ED crossover personally. In Earthdawn they fit because they are a major part of the game. In Shadowrun they don't do it for me.
Frag-o Delux
You forgot the "What horros are you talking about? Oh those metaplot things the writers like to bring up all the time."

I dont think the horrors have played any major role in the 16 years I have been playing. So I would say I dont have any opinion on them, especially since we dont run published adventures or read the novels.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (emo samurai)
I remember a lot of times people did this... I don't remember when.

Maybe it was in That Other Forum? A lot of people here were major participants in that thread. Hell, I don't think I've ever had more fun in a Dumpshock thread. I got to argue and learn, and I was prompted to buy the Horrors sourcebook, which I still hold as the single best sourcebook I have ever read for any system.

~J
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
which I still hold as the single best sourcebook I have ever read for any system.


agreed

To answer emo's question, I like them when they're used sparingly. Very sparingly in SR. They shouldn't be used (well, in most cases) just as a big nasty monster with brutal powers. They should be damn smart, manipulative, and disturbing.
mfb
i don't like them because they're bad guys. there's no moral choices, there; you may as well have the PCs fight vampire Hitler. i prefer to keep black and white morality way, way away from my campaigns, and it's just hard to do that with horrors.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mfb)
i don't like them because they're bad guys. there's no moral choices, there

I disagree, but you know that.

~J
mfb
i can come up with interesting moral conundrums involving horrors, or even vampire Hitler. you can, too. but most of the times i've seen horrors in a campaign, it's just been a boss battle. so, as a rule, i don't like horrors.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 8 2006, 01:03 AM)
i can come up with interesting moral conundrums involving horrors, or even vampire Hitler. you can, too. but most of the times i've seen horrors in a campaign, it's just been a boss battle. so, as a rule, i don't like horrors.

That's not the fault of the Horror, it is the fault of the modules that have used them as bosses.


Well, we've still got the Wraith and the Nomads and that' pretty good. They make decent unnamed Horrors.

Of course, the moral choices need not lie with the Horror itself. The wraith are a good example. Their ability to incite violence leave a moral conundrum of apparently "good" people committing atrocious acts under what may be extreme magical duress or which may be a slight suggestion. Does freeing them from the influence of the Wraith free them from responsibility for their actions? Is it okay to punish someone who was influenced by a Wraith. Is it alright to let them go?

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
To answer emo's question, I like them when they're used sparingly. Very sparingly in SR. They shouldn't be used (well, in most cases) just as a big nasty monster with brutal powers. They should be damn smart, manipulative, and disturbing.


I still like the idea of Mr. Darke's replacement commanding packs of cybered Gnashers as fodder. Not all Horrors are cunning adversaries. Some of them are just mindless beasts.

There is, by canon, at least one Named Horror still around somewhere (Worlds Without End p.140) He hasn't been dealt with that I know of.

Sometimes, I like to think its Nemesis. Sometimes I like to think that its Bonecrown. At the moment, I'm thinking that a naked young woman speaking an unknown language should have been found on the shores of the Caspian Sea by now.
mfb
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
That's not the fault of the Horror, it is the fault of the modules that have used them as bosses.

it's a least partially the horrors' fault, because the horrors themselves are bad guys. i'm not going to say that horrors are one-dimensional, but their morality is; and it's more difficult to make a multi-dimensional landscape using a creature with one-dimensional morals than it would be using a creature with the normal scope. like, vampires and ghouls, in SR? they come pre-packaged with moral dilemma. it's one of their accessories, like those stupid backpacks that all the GI Joes used to come with.
krayola red
I think it's good to have a little variety once in awhile, and Horrors provide that option. Complex moral dilemmas are nice and all, but sometimes you just feel like beating the crap out of the bad guy without wondering the whole time if it's the right thing to do.

My opinion: I likes them nasty critters.
knasser
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
That's not the fault of the Horror, it is the fault of the modules that have used them as bosses.

it's a least partially the horrors' fault, because the horrors themselves are bad guys. i'm not going to say that horrors are one-dimensional, but their morality is; and it's more difficult to make a multi-dimensional landscape using a creature with one-dimensional morals than it would be using a creature with the normal scope. like, vampires and ghouls, in SR? they come pre-packaged with moral dilemma. it's one of their accessories, like those stupid backpacks that all the GI Joes used to come with.


I kind of agree, but I voted Horrors Rock. You can use the Horrors as a coming calamity and find your moral exploration in the in-fighting and betrayals in the face of the disaster. Just at what point will people faced with scarce resources and a fight for survival begin to turn on one another? That's a fascinating opportunity for a morality game based on Horrors.

Also, this horrors source book - did it ever get a PDF release? Might be worth a look.
Grinder
There you go:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/prod...roducts_id=2150
wargear
I'm kinda ambivalent about the issue.

Used sparingly in a cthulhu-mythos-type-cultists-summoning-the-dread-thing-from-beyond kinda way, they can really add to the game. Or if, like we had in one game, you are doing a whole ED rise-of-magic-portents type of event.

As an actual threat the PCs are expected to face in combat? Nah.
Dog
I'm with Wargear. A vague, distant threat that only certain, enlightened people are even aware of, their existence influences everything in the runners world, but the runners will never actually see them, and might not even have heard of them.

The horrors are everything, yet they are nothing.
eidolon
The horrors might be cool, but as they pertain to SR, my vote is "suck".

I don't particularly care for the ED/SR crossover stuff.
Kyoto Kid
...never got into ED, never had the inclination since for the most part the group of people I play with turn to the Other Game when they want to do pure fantasy stuff. Definitely not up to speed or care to be about any ED/SR crossover.

For straight up bad ass horrors in a more "modern" setting (eg the 1930s & up"), we go for the best, CoC.

I believe there have been and are enough good threats out there set in the SR universe to not require those from ED be brought in:

Corps, Toxics, Gangs (yes, even 400 pt characters can have a lot of trouble with gangs), Law Enforcement, Special Forces & Mercs, Pirates, Dragons, GDs (though I would use them very, very sparingly if at all), Manipulative IE's (again used very sparingly), Various Critters & Paranormals, Space (try to not even toss your lunch every waking moment) Environmental (Desert, Arctic, Jungle, Toxic), The Local Urban Brawl team, just to name a few.

mfb
QUOTE (emo samurai)
You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit...

forgot to comment on this. i think you're mistaking "forums bullshit" for "oh god please NOT AGAIN".
Ryu
They suck in SR. Despite Earthdawn being great.
DragginSPADE
I voted against them in SR as well. They were very overdone in a campaign I played in once, and I never want to see them again. (I'll also never again play in a campaign where the GM is a drama major. He loved the demonic corruption of the soul aspect of the Horrors WAY too much.)
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (emo samurai)
You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit...

forgot to comment on this. i think you're mistaking "forums bullshit" for "oh god please NOT AGAIN".

That is true. Even for awesome discussions, there are only so many times a year one can have them. In this particular case, it's once a year, right around the new year.

~J
Draconis
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 8 2006, 10:59 AM)
QUOTE (emo samurai)
You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit...

forgot to comment on this. i think you're mistaking "forums bullshit" for "oh god please NOT AGAIN".

That is true. Even for awesome discussions, there are only so many times a year one can have them. In this particular case, it's once a year, right around the new year.

~J

Happy Horror year. "May all your horrors be forgot...."
nezumi
I like them as a GM because:
1) They give me a chance to grab random crazy monsters from completely unrelated sources and give a canon justification for them in SR
2) They let me create very difficult to fight, difficult to understand, non-combat related threats (failing horrors, I like AIs and complex organizations for the same reason)
3) Like Kage said, the Horrors book is *AWESOME*. There is no end to the creativity that can be put in a horror, nor to the coolness of the back story. I like that, and I use it regularly

As a player, I have no experience with them. I imagine the people who would use them as a tough 'end boss' would, failing horrors, just use some other stupid, random threat for the same purpose. Horrors would just give us diversity, I guess.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
To answer emo's question, I like them when they're used sparingly. Very sparingly in SR. They shouldn't be used (well, in most cases) just as a big nasty monster with brutal powers. They should be damn smart, manipulative, and disturbing.


I still like the idea of Mr. Darke's replacement commanding packs of cybered Gnashers as fodder. Not all Horrors are cunning adversaries. Some of them are just mindless beasts.


Yeah, there's always the cannon fodder ones. Like the (I assume) constructs in Hq's Back. I just prefer the cunning ones myself to the mindless hordes. I would love to have BoneCrown in SR. Mostly because no one would really know, but it gives potential for a lot of plots.

I prefer to have the horrors in the background, so that there's very rarely anything going on in the plot line, but there is the potential for something epic/extremely creepy/disturbing.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Nov 8 2006, 12:12 AM)
QUOTE
which I still hold as the single best sourcebook I have ever read for any system.


agreed

To answer emo's question, I like them when they're used sparingly. Very sparingly in SR. They shouldn't be used (well, in most cases) just as a big nasty monster with brutal powers. They should be damn smart, manipulative, and disturbing.

Re-agreed. However, I can see them being too one-dimensional for the SR universe many of us choose to play in. I have read quite a bit of online fan fiction that uses them well, so I can see them as a great plot device for runs to turn into campaigns.
Draconis
Well the obvious question to be asked is how many people have encountered horrors or had them influence the plot of their current or past campaigns?

If they're used so much they obviously have merit.

We took a minor one out a couple months ago, we took out a horror marked guy two weeks ago and we could mess with them more if we wanted to currently.
knasser
QUOTE (Grinder)
There you go:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/prod...roducts_id=2150


Thank you. I'll have a look, but based on the the adulation here, I'll probably get it.

Cheers,

-K.
Glyph
I voted "they suck" because I'm kind of tired of the whole SR/ED thing. It's nothing but cryptic references, Mary Sue NPCs, and efforts to combine two settings that don't quite actually fit together. If I want nameless horrors from beyond time and space, Lovecraft and his successors did it better.
James McMurray
Lovecraft stole most of his ideas from Earthdawn. He just added tentacles to avoid intellectual property laws.
Kagetenshi
The Horrors and Lovecraft's creatures are not remotely alike, with the possible exception of Ristul (which still isn't Lovecraft's style, but it's the only one that maintains an apparent total cold indifference towards humanity).

~J
Fire Hawk
To quote an entry in one of WebRPG.com's Top 10 lists from waaay back:

QUOTE

The Shadowrun world had gotten terribly strange. The shaman swore we were in a UV computer system. The decker swore we weren't. The rigger swore that the GM had gotten confused and was playing Rifts. The samurai just swore, often and colorfully.

Escorting the Hawaiian Tropics bikini team across the country for the Yakuza, the team's garishly painted bus was hijacked by were-rats. Paralyzed as much by the inevitability of it all as by tranq darts, the team succumbed. They woke, tied to a post, surrounded by were-rat dancers, while the Hawaiian Tropics bikini team were tied to a stone pillar some yards away. The high priest stood over them and began chanting.

"You hear the words 'Yog-Sothoth,'" said the GM, giggling manically. The mage and the shaman, Lovecraft literate, traded horrified glances. The shaman called in a favor from her totem, who was kind enough to dissolve the ropes, and the team ran like hell while a column of interdimensional horror ate both bikini team and were-rats, and the shaman (more guts than brains) stood around shouting "Over here, you tentacled bastard!" until the GM pointed out, delicately, that this was YOG-SOTHOTH. "He doesn't HAVE a damage code!"

We ran like hell. Looked back to see a giant lizard and pig being melted out of primal bedrock by Yog-Sothoth. Said pair, in various forms, followed us for weeks to come, during which time we ran away more often than not, but that's another story....
-Jackal


I still think it's funny.
Garrowolf
I am using the Horrors in my SHadowrun game as the thing they are trying to stop. There are less powerful demons trying to bring them forth before the mana peaks. They are so powerful and so vague that they work great as a general thing you don't want around.
toturi
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 8 2006, 10:59 AM)
QUOTE (emo samurai)
You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit...

forgot to comment on this. i think you're mistaking "forums bullshit" for "oh god please NOT AGAIN".

That is true. Even for awesome discussions, there are only so many times a year one can have them. In this particular case, it's once a year, right around the new year.

~J

Speaking of which the new year is only a couple of months away...

Now it is time for us to nuke Klendathu(the Hive). biggrin.gif
FrankTrollman
Horrors can make adequate Macguffins, and also make unbelievably trite deus ex machinas or railroad lines.

Everyone can agree that they don't want horrors in their yard, so it can make a great way to introduce a possible (and short) alliance with Insects, Toxics, or Humanis. Horror artifacts are things that you're willing to quest to get and willing to destroy when you get them (which is great news for a steady-state campaign).

But horror invasions can loom in importance. They can essentially force players to abandon plot lines to deal with them instead. The arival of a horror can essentially invalidate any other events or actions and shift things directly to the giant boss battle.

There are pros and cons, like in all things. The fact that "everyone wants" a horror invasion to not happen is essentially like how "everyone wants" the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. You don't have to show it, you just have to set up that there's a lot of desire - the drama can work itself out.

-Frank
hyzmarca
Not everyone wants to stop the Horrors or slow down the Scourge. I, for one, welcome our otherworldly masters and hope that they'll see fit to rend my soul into tiny-tasty barbecue strips and mutate my corpse into an unimaginable monstrosity of considerable power. cool.gif

All kidding aside, there are plenty of people who see long term advantages in having a Scourge.

Look at Alachia. In Worlds Without End attempts to sabotage efforts to enlist the Tir Na N�g against Ysrthgranthe. Why? For one thing she she'd like to see Aina suffer and Ysrthgranthe will surely make that happen. For another, she welcomes the Scourge whenever it may be and hopes that it will last a long, long time. If an army of Horrors began devouring the world today then she'd just turn one of the Tirs into a brand new Blood Wood. Absolute dictatorial control over her own little band of chosen people is very tempting, even if the price is high.
She won't go so far as to work with them, she knows that that is ultimately self-destructive, but she sure is heck isn't going to lift a finger to stop them because she doesn't care who she paves over when building her road to power.

Then there are other, less wise, individuals like Mr. Darke and Juan Atzcapotzalco. For his servitude, Darke gained power and knowledge beyond all mortal men of the time. Jaun, we don't know what he gained but it was probably big. Heck, they're probably the reason why he was president of Aztechnology. They certainly see the advantages of working with certain Horrors.

How many sociopaths would make a deal with Chantrel's Horror and feed it victims in exchange for complete physical immortality? All the sociopath has to do is pick up people at clubs and have sex with them once. The Horror will mark the one-night-stand, slaughter the individual's every friend and relative, and savor the suffering for a while. Chantrel is tasty but she doesn't help it play, she sequesters herself away from the world instead of making precious connections that the Horror could use to cultivate even more suffering.

How many Shadowrunners would happily accept Nemesis as a fixer? He can get so much stuff and so small a price and availability doesn't seem to matter at all. And his jobs, they do pay well. How many politicians would buy information from him. How many merchants would use him to unload their merchandise or pick up more at a low price? How many bunraku parlors and back-ally brothels would buy his slaves? How many ghouls would buy flesh from him?

And what of Ristul? Some may say that the Toxics already serve him even if they don't know it.

And Verjigorm, the Hunter of Great Dragons? He is quite generous to his followers, gifting them with weapons like Wyrmslayer, a sword which can kill even the most powerful dragon with surprising ease. Certain people would happily give their souls to him. A certain Shadowtalk poster, for example.
toturi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
A certain Shadowtalk poster, for example.

If he were still around.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 9 2006, 02:44 AM)
Everyone can agree that they don't want horrors in their yard

Really? Aztechnology at bare minimum says otherwise.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
How many sociopaths would make a deal with Chantrel's Horror and feed it victims in exchange for complete physical immortality?

None, probably. Not because they'd refuse, but because we've got no precedent for Chantrel's Horror doing anything of the kind, and it has no trouble finding food anyway.

~J
mfb
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Everyone can agree that they don't want horrors in their yard...

now, see, that would be a cool use of horrors in SR. you've got a corp or government that finds it's holding a plot of land that hosts a horrible mana warp due to someone's horror-summoning attempts and research--and that the mana warp is starting to taint the surrounding area. the run would revolve around their attempts to foist the land off on some other sucker, so they don't have to deal with the cleanup or take the PR hit if the mana warp becomes public knowledge. the horrors don't even have to show up, anywhere in the run.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Lovecraft stole most of his ideas from Earthdawn. He just added tentacles to avoid intellectual property laws.

...*Ahem* I think it is the other way around. They just got "de-tentacled" in ED.
Kyoto Kid

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Everyone can agree that they don't want horrors in their yard

...Oh, I don't know...they might actually make pretty good gardeners.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Lovecraft stole most of his ideas from Earthdawn. He just added tentacles to avoid intellectual property laws.

...*Ahem* I think it is the other way around. They just got "de-tentacled" in ED.

See: irony.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Lovecraft stole most of his ideas from Earthdawn. He just added tentacles to avoid intellectual property laws.

...*Ahem* I think it is the other way around. They just got "de-tentacled" in ED.

Just wait for the next round of SURGE to hit, and it'll be Tentacle City once again for the Horrors. Just what we need to balance out those pesky catgirls.
PlatonicPimp
See, I absolutely LOVE whores in shadowrun. I mean, you can't really have a dark and gritty Noir Setting without at least 1 Whore. Now, I'm no Frank Miller. I don't think that all female characters should be whores. But they do add a certain ambiance to the ....

OH, um. I read that wrong. Sorry.
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Everyone can agree that they don't want horrors in their yard

...Oh, I don't know...they might actually make pretty good gardeners.

they'll certainly keep the kids off the lawn... along with the neighborhood pets, door to door salesmen, missionaries... wow. Where do I get one?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Nov 9 2006, 10:57 AM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Everyone can agree that they don't want horrors in their yard

...Oh, I don't know...they might actually make pretty good gardeners.

they'll certainly keep the kids off the lawn... along with the neighborhood pets, door to door salesmen, missionaries... wow. Where do I get one?

Sure it sounds nice when you put it like that, but it keeps the cat girls off the lawn too.

That's not cool.

-Frank
PBTHHHHT
egads, what was I thinking?! eek.gif
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