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Lord Ben
Okay, so you and two other guys have your own shadowrunning group. You decide another two guys might be useful for the mission and hire a nice tough Troll and a mage (Bob and Frank finally made it to the game that night).

Since you're an "established" group (okay, only one session) you decide to give the new guys 500ny since the run will be very simple. They agree to 500ny. It gets more difficult than anticipated as there are more guards along and there were supposed to be none. However the briefcase is retrieved by the new guys who you ask to hand it off to the Johnson since we were sort of expecting a doublecross.

New guys hand over the breifcase and get the 5k nuyen cred stick.

At this point when we tell the Troll were to meet so we can divide it up and give him his 500 he says he's taking an equal share. We explain that 500 was the cut but he refuses and says he's not showing up unless he gets an equal share. The mage is in the car with the newguy holding our phat lewt but to this point is unaware of what's going on.

What do you do?
Ben
do as usual: kill everyone with EX ammo cool.gif
krayola red
I would agree to his request, wait until he shows up, knock his ass out, stick 500 bucks in his pocket, grab the rest of the money, leave, and never contact him again.

Then again, I would've just offered him a fair share to begin with seeing as how it's just a game and there's no need to be a cheapskate with make believe money.
Jack Kain
I assume the mage has a comlink?
Call him and offer a full share if he helps retrieve the package. This will show the Troll that betrayal will not be tolerated. If the mage has a good direct combat stun spell it shouldn't be to much of a problem. Krayola red also has good ideas.

I also assume the reduced pay is because the other 2 didn't join until after the run had already started. Which is why they didn't know where to go.
Lord Ben
Yeah, the money is nothing. But it's a RP game so the new guy has to be the new guy for one session. I've been the F'ing new guy a few times.

I was planning on giving him an equal share after the mission when he proved himself. But then he went and demanded it...

Frankly, in the beginning I didn't think he was worth 500 even. He refused to carry a gun and would not tell us IC that he was an adept. He was just a tough Troll thug without even a simple baseball bat.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Yeah, the mone is nothing. But it's a RP game so the new guy has to be the new guy for one session. I've been the F'ing new guy a few times.

I was planning on giving him an equal share after the mission when he proved himself. But then he went and demanded it...

Frankly, in the beginning I didn't think he was worth 500 even. He refused to carry a gun and would not tell us IC that he was an adept. He was just a tough Troll thug without even a simple baseball bat.

As for the Troll keeping secrets.
To me it makes sense from an RP perspective. Why would the Troll tell you he's an adept? He can rip your foes apart with his bare hands and leave you to wonder why.
Lord Ben
Well yeah, it makes sense from a RP perspective not to tell. But don't expect me to pay top dollar for simple muscle until he's proven himself.

At any rate what I did was pay the Mage 5000 to waste the other guy. He lived, but currently has a bounty on his head... Can't go letting people rip you off like that or you get a bad rep among the other Orcs.

His next PC played nice with others (until he put a cranial bomb into a different PC).
Fortune
Did he eventually end up pulling his weight on the mission?

More importantly maybe ... is the player going to be a regular?

If the answer to either (or both) of these is yes, then give him the equal share ... albeit begrudgingly in character, while making it clear that the only reason(s) is because he did actually earn it, and you are the bigger man, in not letting his petty powerplay come between forming a mutually-rewarding partnership. Roleplay it out, but ultimately just give it to him.

If the answer is no to either (or both) of the above questions, then see Ben's reply in the second post. wink.gif
Fortune
Or not
fistandantilus4.0
I would normally say split the sahre, but it depends on how things went. Did the troll pull his weight? Did he make that kind of a difference to qualify for a larger share, or jsut take up space? If the latter, explain that a gun has a better range than a bat, and inform him that you would be happy to demonstrate if he doens't put down the case.

If he agress, everything is cool, perhaps they can work together again, or maybe he should make a new character.

Or perhaps just talk to the new players OOC, and explain that if he is going to be a hard ass IC, then you understand where he is coming form. But he needs to understand that you will respond appropraitely IC, and hope for no ill feelings OOC. If he's cool with it, swell. If not, well, perhaps he needs to go play That Other Game or something.
Konsaki
Depending on my character, I might be forgiving or there might be a burning wreck of a vehicle with two bodies inside after I'm done.
I might go even worse than that if my character is vendictive.
Say, knocking them unconsious, then tearing out the bastards' eyes. Then take them to a streetdoc and say they have enough money on a credstick to install some cheap cyber eyes and he can keep the change.
krayola red
Honestly, I don't see any point in killing him or messing him up. Given the nature of how rumors are spread, that could just as easily nail you with a reputation for backstabbing your teammates as it could for giving you street cred as someone not to be messed around with. In fact, I would say the former is probably more likely than the latter.
Charon
500 nuyen?

Did you even cover the cost of his ammo?

Jack Kain
QUOTE (Charon)
500 nuyen?

Did you even cover the cost of his ammo?

He refused to use a gun, or a bat. Just his hands.
Charon
Personnally, I'd have offered a full share anyway.

Now, you offer 500 nuyen most likely telling him it's a cakewalk. Instead he get shot at, then has to assume the risk of the double cross when you send him alone to meet the Johnson.

If that guy was a PC, he'd take away with the whole pay 80% of the time.

Give the guy his fullshare. Sounds like he deserve it.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Charon)
Personnally, I'd have offered a full share anyway.

Now, you offer 500 nuyen most likely telling him it's a cakewalk. Instead he get shot at, then has to assume the risk of the double cross when you send him alone to meet the Johnson.

If that guy was a PC, he'd take away with the whole pay 80% of the time.

Give the guy his fullshare. Sounds like he deserve it.

No one sent them to meet the Johnson alone, the Troll and the mage ASKED where to hand off the package. No one told them to go off alone, they decided to.
Lord Ben
Yeah, he was going to get his full share. Until he started telling us what to do and withholding the goods from us. If he'd have turned over the chip and then asked for an equal share and stated his case that'd be different. Negotiation is one thing, backstabbing us is another... smile.gif

Besides, the answer should be the same whether it's a PC or NPC.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
At any rate what I did was pay the Mage 5000 to waste the other guy. He lived, but currently has a bounty on his head... Can't go letting people rip you off like that or you get a bad rep among the other Orcs.

Hey thats almost exactly what I said I would have done. Guess we think alike.
Charon
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
No one sent them to meet the Johnson alone, the Troll and the mage ASKED where to hand off the package. No one told them to go off alone, they decided to.

Oh please.

If the team was afraid of a double-cross, they obviously didn't share that concern with the runners when they asked what to do with the package.

They used them, plain and simple.

And beside, they picked up the package and then delivered the package. Sounds like they did most of the work and assumed most of the risk, doesn't it?

Try to run a mission like that with PCs and see their reactions.
Lord Ben
Background that should have no bearing on IC actions:

The player of the Troll is one who in D&D and other such games loves to be the theif who steals from party members. In Shadowrun I figured when he requested to drop the package off he'd try to take some of our money. IE, ask for more for a good job and keep the change himself. However I played it off IC as letting him take the risk of a doublecross. He didn't disappoint but instead of stealing untraceable money or pawning spell foci off a dead mage he withheld the credstick and demanded a bigger share. So I put a hit on him.

He's never been a PC to hesitate with interparty theiving, and I've never hesitated dishing out a well deserved stabbing. I was just curious how much metagaming other groups went through to prevent interparty violence.
Jack Kain
The picked up the package as a whole team did the work to geting a hold of it. And there was no mention of any trouble after the package was retrevied. OTHER then the troll PC backstabing the group.

All we know is that the new guys happend to pick up the package after the dust settled. There's nothing about them taking on combat the rest of the group wasn't equally exposed to.

He did deserve his ful share until he decided to backstab the party and hold all the pay ransom.

Charon
We play it straight from the start.

I've never seen a PC accept less than a full share of the pay if he was taking a full share of the risk. "New guy" or not.

Let's not be silly here, if one party is getting screwed (500 nuyen, come on!) from the start, it gives him pretty much license to try to screw back.

And saying you were going to make it right afterward is no help. Only slave mentality leads a man to work for almost nothing while hoping that his master will make it up to him in the end.

Basically, you get what you pay for. Offering 500 nuyen to someone to perform a criminal activity can only lead to two things ; Someone who laughs in your face or someone who isn't gonna do right by you. And why should he? You ain't doing right by him by offering him crumbs to risk his life.
Lord Ben
Basic rundown:

Package moving from airplane to two security cars. We needed the package. We came up in two cars. 3 guys who went to prison together in one car dealing with the security teams, new guys in the second car. New mage providing mage support, troll thug into the airplane to get the breifcase since he doesn't use guns and the airplane was a smallish private jet.

We duke it out with security teams, he comes out with breifcase, both cars peel off and split up. He offers to make the dropoff himself, he withholds money as a negotiating tactic. I pay money to have him force 12 manaballed as my counteroffer.
Charon
Again ; offer fair money up front.

Then you either don't get this mess to start with. Or if you do, you have a fair case that he is untrustworthy.

As it is, by screwing him on the money upfront, you are both evenly shady.

And saying you were going to make it right is pointless because now we'll never know, will we? And nobody seriously expect a cheap bastard to grow magnaminous at the end of the working day.

---

And accepting to let a new member to deliver the package and pick up money alone is just downright silly even if you did offer fair money. But after screwing him up front, it's plain moronic. It's like begging for that kind of mess.

When I play I am always fair with new guys upfront. That doesn't man I trust them upfront.
Lord Ben
QUOTE (Charon)
We play it straight from the start.

I've never seen a PC accept less than a full share of the pay if he was taking a full share of the risk. "New guy" or not.

Let's not be silly here, if one party is getting screwed (500 nuyen, come on!) from the start, it gives him pretty much license to try to screw back.

And saying you were going to make it right afterward is no help. Only slave mentality leads a man to work for almost nothing while hoping that his master will make it up to him in the end.

Basically, you get what you pay for. Offering 500 nuyen to someone to perform a criminal activity can only lead to two things ; Someone who laughs in your face or someone who isn't gonna do right by you. And why should he? You ain't doing right by him by offering him crumbs to risk his life.

500ny is getting screwed? We agreed to pay him after the run whether we got paid or not. And our share after paying the new guys would have been 1200 for each of the 3 established members and 500 for the 3 new guys (other guy was a TM rigger who drove the cars and stayed out of the whole mess, he was happy for the gas money).

We'd already failed the mission once (showed up at the dropoff point at 4am instead of 4pm due to a miscommunication and nearly got busted by some airport security) so failing it a 2nd time wasn't out of the question. 500 guaranteed was a fair offer considering the circumstances and the fact that the run was going to be lasting less than a few hours.
fistandantilus4.0
eek.gif

Good counter offer. "anybody else wanna negotiate?"

Charon: never been on a run where the Johnson told you one thing, another happened later, and then you renegotiated? I'm just fine with that personally.But if they didn't do anything different, why pay more? If the guys just hired for muscle, why would muscle get paid more. I mean really, he's a freaking troll with a bat!
Lord Ben
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
I mean really, he's a freaking troll with a bat!

Cept without a bat!
Fortune
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Yeah, he was going to get his full share. Until he started telling us what to do and withholding the goods from us.

But he didn't know this, either IC or OOC, right?

QUOTE
If he'd have turned over the chip and then asked for an equal share and stated his case that'd be different. Negotiation is one thing, backstabbing us is another...


Why the hell would he just turn over his only bargaining chip before opening negotiations? You, and your other 'regulars' are the ones that let the two newcomers get their hands on the goods, and then on the paydata. You, and your two mates are the ones that low-balled the newcomers on the deal, and then made the mistake of letting them know about it IC. Seems to me that they have every right to open negotiations the way they did, and were being more than reasonable in only asking for an equal share.

Put yourself in the troll character's position (imagine everyone else is an NPC if you say that it shouldn't matter either way). You get the call and agree to a milk run. This run turns out to be much more than your employer (the three 'professionals') told you it would be, and you end up doing the brunt of the work. Through all this, you get your hands on the goods, and volunteer to do more than you contracted for in making the hand-off ... only to find out the the professionals are not going to back you up (like they did a great job the first time). Despite this, you go on and make the drop, only to have another bombshell hit when you find that you and your mage pal are getting stiffed by these so-called pros. So you pull out your Commlink, and you make a call...
Charon
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
500ny is getting screwed?

Hell yes.

Truth be told, 1200 is also getting screwed. But 500 is getting screwed 140% more!
Jack Kain
If we go fully by IC, then everyone did exactly what they should have done in the world of shadowrun.
Konsaki
What the PCs (Troll + Mage) did was a backhanded way of getting more cash. If he had done that to a Johnson, they would be dead or their rep ruined. I see no reason not to kill them on sight or put an anon hit on them...
If the normal group kills them off correctly and doesnt leave any evidence, then they wouldn't get a bad rep cause there wouldnt be anyone to say they did it...
fistandantilus4.0
Fortune: My take is that they were going to pay him more, but the troll took the wrong position. IC, the troll is basically a muscle ganger. What ganger is going to demand anything from a bunch of 'pro' runners?
Charon
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Nov 22 2006, 12:01 AM)
Fortune: My take is that they were going to pay him more, but the troll took the wrong position. IC, the troll is basically a muscle ganger. What ganger is going to demand anything from a bunch of 'pro' runners?

Well, calling these runners pro is a bit of a stretch.

Pros would have offered equal pay for equal risk and pros would have been present at the final meet.

The first point is perhaps arguable (Personnally I don't think so), but the second isn't.

And this mess would have been avoided.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Charon)
pros would have been present at the final meet.


I'll agree with that.

I wouldn't split my pay equally with straight street muscle though. maybe that's just me.
krayola red
QUOTE (Konsaki)
If the normal group kills them off correctly and doesnt leave any evidence, then they wouldn't get a bad rep cause there wouldnt be anyone to say they did it...

How about the troll's buddy, who knew he went on a job with this bunch of guys, only to end up dead in a ditch right afterwards? Or the Johnson, who knows the troll was part of the team since he's the one who actually made the trade, and then hears that the same troll got iced a few hours after they met? I mean, no one's going to arrest you for it, but people talk, and talk is all that's needed to make a pristine rep crash and burn.
Lord Ben
What I would and have done is to negotiate up front for hazard pay if it ends up being worse than what was promised. Or I would have done my job to the best of my ability and proven myself then on the next run and demanded up front money. All those are valid points.

Actually, keeping it's a valid point too. But so is the manaball counteroffer the Johnson makes.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Konsaki)
What the PCs (Troll + Mage) did was a backhanded way of getting more cash. If he had done that to a Johnson.

Actually the mage sided with the rest of the group and manaballed the troll.
For going IC everyone did what they should have.

The team used the untested new guys and only offered them a partial payment. The troll decided to hold the goods for ransom and demand extra pay. The mage decided to betray the troll for the offer of a full share. Sounds like a good short story.
Lord Ben
Actually I called the Johnson that we hired the Troll through and told her to fix the problem with the guy she recommended because he wasn't living up to agreed upon terms. I gave her one hour and the Troll didn't call and apologize so I called the mage and made my offer to him.
Charon
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Nov 22 2006, 12:05 AM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Nov 22 2006, 12:04 AM)
pros would have been present at the final meet.


I'll agree with that.

I wouldn't split my pay equally with straight street muscle though. maybe that's just me.

The 3 regulars had just one mission under their belt. So obviously the three new guy had just as good (or bad) a rep as the regulars.

They basically had no call treating them as street muscle. That's why I'm adamnant they should have been offered equal pay. Not only did they take equal risk, they had the same street cred.
Lord Ben
Well, regardless Charon he DID agree to 500n for an afternoons work. And we were honest about what we IC expected from the run. The demand for equal pay should have happened BEFORE the doublecross.

OOC everyone involved knew it would be worse.
Charon
Just curious :

How the hell can you afford to pay a mage 5000 to wack the troll if this is your second mission, the first one was a failure and you didn't receive payment for this one?

PS : I'm not arguing the fact that the Troll was unprofessional. A Pro wouldn't have agreed to be lowballed in the first place (not by runner who have no better street cred than him and who want him to assume full risks) and would then have sticked to the term he eventually accepted.

But you weren't professional either IMO and in that context he was just about as out of line as you were. You guys deserved each other, basically. wink.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Established street cred is something I admittedly hadn't thought to factor in. My thoughts are more along the lines that they were the team contacted, and , for lack of abetter word, subcontracted the troll (unless I read that wrong). Also that they went in with more than a bat (or lack of).

I think it really came down to more OOC expectations and those expectations being fulfilled with the player.
Lord Ben
I had a certified credstick with 30,000 on it from my last run before I went to jail stored at my GF's place.

Of course when I got out of jail the bitch had spent half of it, leaving me with only 15,000 to reestablish myself. I owned two pistols and a dozen rounds of ammo. The run was to prove myself to a new Johnson since I needed to establish my rep. He wasn't going to give me and two prison buddies more money unless we could prove we could get it done.

1500 each and 500 expenses was crappy pay for three guys like us but it beat washing dishes at stuffer shack. When we needed extra muscle (read other PC's showed up that night) it was digging into my own money. I had a girlfriend at home and a lifestyle to return to but sometimes a chummer has no good options.
krayola red
Ah, then the solution to the dilemma is clear: dump the skanky ho, marry a rich chick, and retire from your life of crime.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (krayola red)
Ah, then the solution to the dilemma is clear: dump the skanky ho, marry a rich chick, and retire from your life of crime.

but what if the rich chick is a skanky hoe?
kzt
QUOTE (krayola red)
Ah, then the solution to the dilemma is clear: dump the skanky ho, marry a rich chick, and retire from your life of crime.

A modified version of the John Kerry plan for financial success. cool.gif
krayola red
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
QUOTE (krayola red @ Nov 22 2006, 12:23 AM)
Ah, then the solution to the dilemma is clear: dump the skanky ho, marry a rich chick, and retire from your life of crime.

but what if the rich chick is a skanky hoe?

It doesn't matter, because you know she ain't a skanky ho who's going to steal your money.

Wealth is like a one million build point positive quality that completely dwarfs all negative qualities. Obtaining it automatically wins you the game!
Snow_Fox
pay equal shares to get the stuff back, if you can't do it by force, then make sure that fixers know what he did, his rep is in flames and he's down to cash up front grunt work.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
QUOTE (krayola red @ Nov 22 2006, 12:23 AM)
Ah, then the solution to the dilemma is clear: dump the skanky ho, marry a rich chick, and retire from your life of crime.

but what if the rich chick is a skanky hoe?

If she's rich then she can aford unnecessary plastic surgery to get rid of the skank and if she has self-esteem issues then she'll change herself for you without complaint.
This is why you should always marry rich women with self-esteem issues, along with the fact that they're less likey to make you sign a pre-nump.
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
This is why you should always marry rich women with self-esteem issues, along with the fact that they're less likey to make you sign a pre-nump.

Words to live by. biggrin.gif
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