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limejello10512
I recently became intrigued with the idea of the new revolution. Not as villains but as heroes trying to reunify their nation. I've read the articles in threats and in system failure but I'm still unsure of where they are in 2070.

I've been able to gather that the senator who led alamos 20k and one new rev faction is dead (good riddance)

It is also implied that angela colloton is a member of the new rev.

However that's All I know for sure. How much of the new rev survived? Does any of it still function under angela's supervision perhaps? Did loyalist forces over throw the new rev forces or was it just one camp of the new rev overthrowing the other and claiming to be loyalists? Did angela betray the new rev to gain power, is she the only one left? It doesn't say what happened to "the general" or "the political council." Did the new rev actually succeed in claiming power since angela is now in charge? If so where do they go from there? Is this the beginning of the NA wars perhaps?

Any information would be very helpful.
PlatonicPimp
This is complete theory:

I think there were kinda two branches to the new revolution: Those who favored a mass uprising, and those who favored the cloak and dagger stuff. I think the revolution in system failure was the second group cleaning house of the first group. That is to say, the new revolution didn't die that day, it simply got rid of it's embarassing vocal part. Now it exists in the shadows, manipulating events.

There is evidence that the current President, Colloton, is a New Revolutionary.

Also, notice how many mergers of state there have been in North america lately. Pueblo annexed LA and the Ute nation, the Salish have absorved the Tsimshain, etc. Theres other hints of the new revolution at work if you look for them, give it a try.

Interesting thought: What non-New revolution groups might ally with them? Ghostwalker. Think about this: Ghostwalker is trying to put the spirit of Denver back together. The spirit fractured when Deenver was divided as the treaty city, but in the last decade that trend has reversed as aztechnology was kicked out of Denver, and Pueblo annexed the Ute and therefore their sector. If all the treaty nations were merged back into a single state, denver and therefore the spirit of denver would be restored. That might be enough reason for ghostwalker to give the NR some aid.

Canon? maybe not. A good basis for a campaign? Hells Yes.
SL James
QUOTE (limejello10512 @ Nov 26 2006, 12:17 AM)
It is also implied that angela colloton is a member of the new rev. 

However that's All I know for sure.  How much of the new rev survived?  Does any of it still function under angela's supervision perhaps?

Well, seeing as though she's now President of the UCAS, so unless Fanpro is taking cues from the mental abortion that is 24 I would say... No.

Also, Pimp, don't forget that in the original Threats 2 chapter the NR, specifically the Unity Coalition, "decided" to leave Denver for Los Angeles (maybe) after Ghostwalker conquered Denver. However, that's not exactly a bad idea.

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
There is evidence that the current President, Colloton, is a New Revolutionary.

Considering she effectively confessed on national trid.
hyzmarca
We still don't know where Mrs. Brown Nipples is or what happened to her. This bit of information would shed a great deal of light onto the coup. If the NR took her out then the Draco Foundation wasn't in on it. If she escaped unharmed then they, at the very least, knew about it in advance.

The timing of the coup and the Crash can't be a coincidence, either. It isn't just that the crash damaged infrastructure, it also took out Alice Haefner. As the original Ghost in the Machine, Alice was probably on close to the same level as an AI in terms of what she could do in the Matrix if she put her mind to it. The murder of her husband would not have made her happy and she isn't the kind of person you want to have seeking revenge from you, unless you live in an electromagnetically shielded cave with no outside telecommunications, and even then it is risky. Really, the ultimate conspirators behind the assasination could have faced anything from complete financial destruction to a plane crash to a rampaging prototype killbot to having their SINs deleted and replaced with criminal SINs that have execution warrants attached to them.

And if the Draco foundation were involved then they would no this. They would know that the only time they could safely eliminate Haefner was during the Crash when his wife would be incapacitated or killed.
SL James
Ex-wife. He remarried (Super Tuesday, 12).

Which also adds another layer of ignorance to the story. Not as big a deal as, say, the half-assed, ignorance-filled justification of that worthless waste of text, but still. Just to make my position on it perfectly clear, Shadowrun (or at the least the setting) is worse for The Tree of Liberty having been written.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (SL James @ Nov 26 2006, 02:27 AM)
Ex-wife. He remarried (Super Tuesday, 12).

He remaired, but they never divorced. That makes him a bigamist in jurisdictions that recognize marriages between metahumans and computer software; but polygamy is legal in the UCAS so that doesn't really matter.
SL James
She's dead.

At best, at best, the Alice in the Matrix is a long-survived SK with data approximating memory and a psychological profile approximating motives (e.g., revenge).
Grinder
QUOTE (SL James @ Nov 26 2006, 08:27 AM)
Just to make my position on it perfectly clear, Shadowrun (or at the least the setting) is worse for The Tree of Liberty having been written.

But you can't resist its call. Everytime a thread contains the magical word "colloton" you have to appear and rant about it. Sorta like Beetlejuice. biggrin.gif
limejello10512
of course it wasn't a coincidence the NR took advantage of a random occurance. The crash caused the coup though not vice versa.

But I like the idea of the new rev...I think the fall of the US is too pesimistic without someone trying to restore it. Plus I found it hard to swallow that the US was unlamented as Captain chaos claimed in NA's guide to north america (plus his version of events is hardly what I would call fair and ballanced). Now I know that there were those who long for the return of the US. Though I guess I would agree that I'd rather have the NR fighting to reunify the US. From a purely gaming point of view.

So since the rev is probably now soley under the command of General Colloton does anyone want to speculate what parts of it are still functioning or do you guy's think that they have disbanded and just thrown their support behind the UCAS as law abiding citizens?
PlatonicPimp
I actually don't find the Idea that the US would fall unmourned so much. Remember that the south has risen again in the form of the CAS.

Many (most) of the strongest american nationalists I've known were also neo-confederates. It wouldn't be surprising that many of those would forget the silly US if the confederacy were reinstated. This is especially true of those american nationalists mostl likely to do anything remotely conspiritorial.

When the NAN is formed, those people out west with those sorts of sentiments would most likely repatriate to the south.

Also to consider is the large number of people in blue states who admire and respect canada. The idea of merging countries with canida would appeal to these sorts of people. The freedoms and liberty these people associate with america is just as easliy associated with canada, or to the UCAS.

And the Nationalists would be happy to be rid of those carpet bagger hippies, the lot of them.

So yeah, I beleive that most hardcore nationalist Americans would transfer that Loyalty to the CAS given the events in SR.



The New revolution would NOT be united behind Colloton. She's certainly strong in the group, but it is a factous group to begin with, each one operating in it's area. Colloton has control of new revolutionary activites in the UCAS (Ostensibly, there will be others working against her), while other people run it in other areas. Remember that the NR doesn't beleive the UCAS is the US at all. They think of it as just like all the other states in NA: in need of destruction to reforge the US. Imagine what a president who actually wants their country to fail can do to it.
hyzmarca
I don't think that a terrorist organization attacking an AI's upgrade party with magically enhanced nuclear bombs and a new improved version of the Crash virus can possibly be called a random occurrence.

This is something that required a great deal of planning and commitment by multiple parties. If one assumes that both the NR and Winternight were subordinate to the machinations of our favorite dead dragon then the timing makes a great deal more sense. If you read Dunkie's speech about the nature of America, made when he announced his candidacy, one can see some pro-reunification leanings there.

But Dragons think long-term. They don't plan years in advance, they plan centuries in advance. It is quite possible that the New Revolution timetable is far slower than anyone knows, if Dunkie planned it. The coup factions were as impatient as they were useless to the overall cause.

Of course, there is the little issue of the fact that the coup didn't really damage the Unity Coalition, which was in bed with the Mantids via Anne Penchyk. While it is unlikely that Dunkie would get in bed with Mantids, that is always a possibility. The murder of the Insect Spirit inhabitating the body of General Yeats by a Mantis under the direction of Penchyk certainly didn't hurt his campaign.

I'd assume that the Unity Coalition is still around, but the Militia branch is gone and the Reconstitution branch has far less pull than it once did. With Colloton as President the Political branch would have the most sway, assuming that she was a member of the political branch.
Of course, it isn't impossible that Colloton is actually Mantis and Penchyk is using her as a frontwoman.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Imagine what a president who actually wants their country to fail can do to it.


I was a Katrina volunteer. I don't have to imagine.

-Frank
mfb
+2: sick burn, accurate.
Penta
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
If you read Dunkie's speech about the nature of America, made when he announced his candidacy, one can see some pro-reunification leanings there.

Where could we find this speech?
SL James
QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 26 2006, 04:20 AM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Nov 26 2006, 08:27 AM)
Just to make my position on it perfectly clear, Shadowrun (or at the least the setting) is worse for The Tree of Liberty having been written.

But you can't resist its call. Everytime a thread contains the magical word "colloton" you have to appear and rant about it. Sorta like Beetlejuice. biggrin.gif

Yes, because the NR had a ginormous role in a two-year (so far) campaign I've been running, and is a major role in damn near everything one of my PCs does (Yes, I GMPC. So what?). I also have other reasons. It comes up because A) I don't want DS users to get the impression that it's anything less than poorly-done, and B) the plotline means so much to me that I can't help but register my offense.

But at the same time, after my last post this morning, the very thought of this subject made my head hurt badly enough that I had to take something for it.

QUOTE (limejello10512)
So since the rev is probably now soley under the command of General Colloton does anyone want to speculate what parts of it are still functioning or do you guy's think that they have disbanded and just thrown their support behind the UCAS as law abiding citizens?

There are a lot of ideas about what could happen depending on more information being presented. Some of which I've descibed before. Some of which I'm holding close to my chest for varied reasons (mostly GM-wise, since the campaign isn't close to over yet).

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
So yeah, I beleive that most hardcore nationalist Americans would transfer that Loyalty to the CAS given the events in SR.

That was not even suggested, but stated outright in the CAS chapter of SoNA (which was written by Jon Szeto, who wrote the NR chapter of Threats 2).

QUOTE
Imagine what a president who actually wants their country to fail can do to it.

And imagine what the NR could do to the NAN (for example) with the resources of the UCAS government behind them. Hell, it would be incredibly naive to think that the UCAS wasn't (isn't) using the NR.

The wild card in this whole situation is Ares.
Grinder
Wow, that's hard!
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this plot-line, the insight you have and let us know. If you would be simply ranting, I wouldn't bother to read your postings, but most of your postings have a very (even if completly different from canon) profund knowledge.
SL James
Having a working knowledge of American politics helps.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Of course, there is the little issue of the fact that the coup didn't really damage the Unity Coalition, which was in bed with the Mantids via Anne Penchyk. While it is unlikely that Dunkie would get in bed with Mantids, that is always a possibility.

He handed her control of a massive NGO in his will, and you expect me to believe that he was oblivious to her extracurricular activities?

QUOTE
With Colloton as President the Political branch would have the most sway, assuming that she was a member of the political branch.
Of course, it isn't impossible that Colloton is actually Mantis and Penchyk is using her as a frontwoman.

I don't think she is a member of the political branch. She has never been portrayed as being anything other than a soldier's general (If she was in any way political, her appearance before the UCC in RA:S would have been handled completely differently). I like to think of her and the 2068 election as what would have happened if MacArthur ran for President in '52, and won.

QUOTE (Penta)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 26 2006, 03:59 PM)
If you read Dunkie's speech about the nature of America, made when he announced his candidacy, one can see some pro-reunification leanings there.

Where could we find this speech?

Super Tuesday. I'll excerpt some of it in a bit.
Grinder
Didn't you even studied politics?
SL James
QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 26 2006, 05:56 PM)
Didn't you even studied politics?

I have a Bachelor's degree in Political Science with a focus on Political Theory and Behavior. I decided not to seek a Masters in Political Management in order to get my current graduate degree. I've interned or worked for every level of government and for all three branches, and have worked on innumerable campaigns ranging from judicial and city council to helping open and run the state primary campaign for a presidential candidate after he announced his candidacy. I didn't work on the Kerry campaign because I had more personally important races to work on, and well, he's a douchebag.

So... yeah.
Grinder
That seems to give a very solide knowledge of US politics. smile.gif
Kremlin KOA
If Ares is written to be pro Unification, then it will be proof beyond reasonable doubt that the current writers of Shadowrun Canon have either gone insane or hate the gameworld and want to rewrite it.

According to current Canon, if the US reforms then Ares must GIVE Ares Space to them (for free)
SL James
QUOTE (ST @ 97)
But you have always tried again to be the great civilization that you instinctively know you can be. I wish to aid in this effort-by leading you in the direction towar which you have always striven. This nation and all its peoplehave so much strength, so much potential for true greatness. I can make that potential a reality. I can guide the UCAS-and through the UCAS the world-to become what it was meant to become.


BTW, I love how he later mentions that not being a politician is a qualification. Looking at the list of UCAS presidents and noting the very obvious lack of professional politicians among them, one has to consider that maybe it ought to be a good thing. He then goes on to end his announcement by referring to Ronald Reagan's "city on a hill" (although that concept has been a piece of American political ideology and lore since the days of the colonies.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
If Ares is written to be pro Unification, then it will be proof beyond reasonable doubt that the current writers of Shadowrun Canon have either gone insane or hate the gameworld and want to rewrite it.

They don't have to be pro-Unification to be deeply embroiled in the NR. Remember, the precursor and fallout would have easily helped exasperate conflicts between their clients, er... the countries in North America. Also, it's easier to keep it from getting out of hand if they could watch and control it (taking a page from the guidebook to British intelligence dirty tricks).

Plus, come on, it's Ares. If Knight had the slightest suspicion that Dunkelzahn and/or Nadja Daviar or Kyle Haeffner were involved, he would make it his business to get involved out of personal interest, an instinctive defense of his race, and the fact that it could seriously affect the long-term interests of his corp as well as to protect his legacy.

Earlier in ST, Kenson describes Dunkelzahn:

QUOTE (ST @ 12)
The dragon sees himself as something og a benevolent dictator, someone who must take certain high-handed measures because he knows more than everyone else... he will glady do what needs to be done all by himself.
BrianL03
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 26 2006, 05:56 PM)
Didn't you even studied politics?

I have a Bachelor's degree in Political Science with a focus on Political Theory and Behavior. I decided not to seek a Masters in Political Management in order to get my current graduate degree. I've interned or worked for every level of government and for all three branches, and have worked on innumerable campaigns ranging from judicial and city council to helping open and run the state primary campaign for a presidential candidate after he announced his candidacy. I didn't work on the Kerry campaign because I had more personally important races to work on, and well, he's a douchebag.

So... yeah.

James, as a current undergrad PS major (more interested in international politics than national though), I have to say that you have gained an impressive boost in my personal opinion.
SL James
Just to put a point on how far this can go and how many interests and parties touched on this issue, I figured I ought to (with great reluctance) excerpt the climax of something I've been writing. Just to give context (since the character was descibed in an old thread), it's a UCAS Army colonel testifying before a joint congressional committee in 2065 on the UCAS government's aid to and exploitation of the NR movement, so it is quite politically charged and filled with considerable spin.

QUOTE
"Yes, Mr. Chairman, it was. We circumvented those rules or just violated them. What we did was in the best long-term interest of the UCAS people and the government. To this end, we went through considerable lengths to hide our involvement in these activities. However, there were other factors at work which compounded the complexity of these operations. Hostile and ostensibly neutral governments were also involved in aiding or directing these organizations against the UCAS or its allies. To this end, we were simutaneously playing offense and defense, and in many cases allowed terrorist to operate against the UCAS or its interests in the short-term to redirect their efforts back at those nations through a disinformation campaign which required certain sacrifices to be made."
FlakJacket
Interesting. I take it that's something you're cooking up for over on Shadowland?

From the excerpt it certainly sounds like something that would have to be done very off the books thanks to the amount of political oversight and meddling your intelligence agencies, and I'm assuming the UCAS CIA/DIA/whoever, have to put up with.
SL James
Oh, it's been going on in Shadowland for two years IRL. Some PCs have been pretty involved in it, knowingly or not, doing all sorts of things from smuggling to wetwork to money laundering.

And, oh yes, it was off the books. The rest of the file goes into more detail, but only just (this is an excerpt from of the public hearing). Suffice to say, this was even more grossly illegal than Iran-Contra.

You know, thinking back on it, I can't help but think of Angela Colloton giving a speech from the East Room without being reminded of what happened the last time a (retired) general did something similar.
FlakJacket
May have to dig out my old SL log in codes, if I can find them. If this is available for public perusal what's it called? Since you mentioned its been going on for a couple years I'm guessing this grew out of the original Threats 2 material rather than just your rabid dislike for System Failure. smile.gif
limejello10512
I don't know I understand that the confederates and UCAS split because of a political disagreement but I still think that they would rather have their ideal vision of the US ruling north america. Succesion was more an act of self preservation than a wish to see north america fragmented and weak. plus I'm sure they'd love to have US support fighting aztlan right about now.

actually I don't necsisarilly see ares being nationalized though it would be a stupid move on the nr's part to allienate a potential ally I think.


frank that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard why would bush want america to fall? Why would a slow hurricaine response be his method of accomplishing this? Especially when the response which I guess could have been faster was still well within acceptable parameters and the funds offered were unusually high. The only way he could have sent releif sooner is by releiveing the governor of authotiry under the insurrection act which exists for the sole purposes of preventing insurection (this in theory would mean placing the governor under arrest and invading louisiana...which I think would have made you even more angry) and then there's always the fact that the flooding would have been much less severe if environmentalists had allowed the levie repairs to proceed in the first place.

but back to the NR...so I guess you all feel it is wisest to assume that the UCAS revolutionaries are now working with UCAS support to destabilize their neighbors? Taking up covert millitary jobs etc?
Fortune
QUOTE (limejello10512)
actually I don't necsisarilly see ares being nationalized ...

Not all of Ares ... just Ares Space.
PlatonicPimp
Because ares essentially leased NASA from the US, but when the lease was up, the US no longer existed. the UCAS tried to collect, but ares didn';t accept that they were the inheritors of the debt and since the UCAS couldn't force teh issue, Ares kept NASA. If the US reformed, they'd have to give it back.

And while Frank's response is hyperbole, it raises the point I tried to make. The president can't directlyact to harm the country they rule, at least not so long as they still answer to others. If she overtly acts to undermine her country, she'll be impeached. instead, she'd have to make ineffective but active responses to outside threats, responses that appear to be proactive but totally fail to fix the problem, possibly causing more problems in the long run. The difference between that and Bush is that Colloton would be doing it on purpose.
SL James
QUOTE (limejello10512 @ Nov 26 2006, 09:24 PM)
I don't know I understand that the confederates and UCAS split because of a political disagreement but I still think that they would rather have their ideal vision of the US ruling north america.  Succesion was more an act of self preservation than a wish to see north america fragmented and weak.  plus I'm sure they'd love to have US support fighting aztlan right about now.

The thing is that both nations have pretty different versions of what their ideal America is. This has been discussed to death before, but it pretty much boils down to the fact that the CAS is (in SoNA anyway) pretty politically moderate whereas the UCAS is like Spain before the Civil War: Divided between very polarized positions with virtually no middle.

QUOTE

frank that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard why would bush want america to fall?  Why would a slow hurricaine response be his method of accomplishing this?  Especially when the response which I guess could have been faster was still well within acceptable parameters and the funds offered were unusually high.  The only way he could have sent releif sooner is by releiveing the governor of authotiry under the insurrection act which exists for the sole purposes of preventing insurection (this in theory would mean placing the governor under arrest and invading louisiana...which I think would have made you even more angry)  and then there's always the fact that the flooding would have been much less severe if environmentalists had allowed the levie repairs to proceed in the first place.


You see, there are these things called "jokes." We tend to toss a lot of them around here. You may get used to it, but frankly, I hope not.

QUOTE
but back to the NR...so I guess you all feel it is wisest to assume that the UCAS revolutionaries are now working with UCAS support to destabilize their neighbors?  Taking up covert millitary jobs etc?

Not exactly. Some may. The number of factions with their own goals is rather diverse and quickly approaching infinity.

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
The difference between that and Bush is that Colloton would be doing it on purpose.

Or you can destablized other countries and then take them over while you stay President of an American Empire.

*cough* GitS:SAC *cough*

Seriously, if General Yeats was Colin Powell, making Angela Colloton be a female President MacArthur would just be the goddamn funniest thing ever in SR (which is saying a lot).
limejello10512
oh come on joke or no that was clearly an attack against Bush and while I make it a rule to never start a political discussion where it doesn't belong because it only leads to an argument, I also make it a rule never to back down when someone else starts one....wow that's a run on sentence. (Also I've met plenty of people that have said things like that in complete seriousness, so you never can be too sure)

anyway... ares space is what I meant I don't see that being nationalized automaticly. They bought it from the US fair and square. Though ares was clearly fighting the coup forces I could see them being brought into the coup as pro american as they are.

I'm pretty sure Colloton wouldn't try to bring the UCAS down though. Seems like that'd be shooting the new rev in the foot. I think it far more likely to use that as a base of operations to start a war of reunification. Now that she controlls the UCAS I think it could just be a matter of renaming it the US and restoring the old system of governernment.

"The thing is that both nations have pretty different versions of what their ideal America is. This has been discussed to death before, but it pretty much boils down to the fact that the CAS is (in SoNA anyway) pretty politically moderate whereas the UCAS is like Spain before the Civil War: Divided between very polarized positions with virtually no middle. "-sl jmaes

well yeah but I mean they don't want to be alone...they just aren't willing to accept the politics of the UCAS. If the US reformed and did everyhting they wanted they would stop advocating sucession I think. That's different then the NAN, or elven nations who don't want the US to exist in any form. Well most of the nan anyway (or some?...any way we can get our hands on a pole?)

Though that actually brings to mind one major question I've had. Do do you guys think any organization calling itself the new rev still exist in any form? Even secretly? And do you think they know angella was a member. Would their politcial differences be enough to get them to fight to overthrow Colloton?
PlatonicPimp
Actually they didn't buy NASA "Fair and square". They LEASED it. The equipment and locations Ares got were to be returned later. When that later came, there was no US anymore. So Ares kept the stuff. if the US were to reform, they could come collecting because technically, Ares owes the US.

Of course, they could argue non-continuity: that this US isn't the same as the old US: that chooseing the same name as a previous nation doesn't give you rights to collect their debts. But Its a long legal battle anyway son I don't see Ares supporting the new revolutions goals unless they get a solid promise that they'll never come collecting.

Now for the painful part: I feel that your personal sentiments regarding our country are coloring your judgement about the new revolution. By Canon, they are not heroes, they are shadowy conspirators. They have more in common with Timothy Mcveigh than George Washington. The UCAS is not the US. It's not even close. The country that most exemplifies the US as it is today is the CAS. But it is stated the the New Revolution doesn't see ANY of the successor states as the rightful US. They want ALL of them to fall. Their goal and M.O. is to destabalize all the existing governments in hopes that the populace will rise up. That is not to say that they won't use the UCAS as a base of operations to start wars of conquest with other countries, just that in the end, they'll topple the UCAS too.

It's your game, so you can change the New revolution however you want. But be aware that changing them from terrorists who want to destroy evey nation in N.A. to heroes trying to reunite everyone with the UCAS is a change from Canon.
ChicagosFinest
If I recall and SL James can you help me out and let me know if I got my thinking cap on...

The Natzi of the new revolution was killed by his protoge and how he's slowly taking over (having killed the troll too). So with the senator, the natzi, and the troll dead that only leaves him and the sellout native american.

As far as the the natzis apprentise he has the same M.O. as his dead teacher but bigger political and charitable connections. I think he donates a lot to medical and some corp programs.

I remeber reading it somewhere I think SoNA had those clues. So there are only 2 left in the new revoultion playing for power. I think one advocate and one clak and dagger.

SL James
QUOTE (ChicagosFinest @ Nov 27 2006, 11:45 AM)
If I recall and SL James can you help me out and let me know if I got my thinking cap on...

The Natzi of the new revolution was killed by his protoge and how he's slowly taking over (having killed the troll too). So with the senator, the natzi, and the troll dead that only leaves him and the sellout native american.

Not exactly. According to Loose Alliances *puke*, the Doktor killed the Troll and usurped the Nazi, which left the Senator, Loon and Zealot. With the Senator gone - assuming Braddock was the Senator in Alamos 20,000- there would be three leaders. If, OTOH, the Loon also showed his hand during the coup, then it could just be split between the Doktor and the Zealot as well as the inevitable power-grabbers who would try to carve out their own factions.

As for what is left of the NR, there just isn't enough information to say.
ChicagosFinest
Thanks for helping me out I was struggleing this morning with the NR smile.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
frank that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard why would bush want america to fall?


I don't know, why wouldn't you use correct punctuation? I'm not you, andI'm not Bush, your motives are incorrible to me. I can speculate, but I can't know.

Still, here's some speculation:
  1. At the conclusion of the amazingly bad hurricane response, Bush introduced new disaster preparedness plans that were just like the ones the California Forestry Service put into effect in the '70s except that under the new regulations as soon as the Feds get involved Homeland Security will send in a Commisar (sorry, an Intelligence Officer) who will relieve your Public Information Officer of his duties. The Intelligence Officer is charged with restricting access to classifed and proprietary information.
  2. During the hurricane response, Bush unsuccessfully put in a bid to remove governor control over National Guard units.
  3. Friends of Bush made billions of dollars in no-bid contracts to "provide" goods and services that the government already had during the hurricane response.
Take your pick. Take 'em all. I don't give a shit, I can't know for certain which of those were goals, which were simply opportunistic moves, and which which gross incompetence. I don't think we'll ever know.

But here's what I do know:

In 2005, I was stationed in a Construction Battalion Base in Gulfport Mississippi. The bridge to Waveland was out and we had to ship supplies all the way around. The Sea Bees are an elite unit of combat engineers who are some of the fastest and most efficienct bridge builders the world has ever seen. They had the tools, the manpower, and the skills needed to put that bridge back up at any time in under 24 hours even if they were being shot at. All they needed was an order to be signed.

That order is already prepared ahead of time and placed in a folder along with all the other similar orders so that it can be delivered in an emergency situation with a single signature. A signature which, despite that order being sent out, never fucking came. Ever.

Do you understand the magnitude of that? Can you wrap your mind around it long enough to use some correct capitalization? Whatever the motives were, and I can of course continue to weave increasingly elaborate conspiracy theories all day, the fact is that Bush chose to have craftsmen and equipment alread in place in the gulfcoast region stand down rather than rebuild an infrastructure that would facilitate the feeding of the displaced people of the region. That was his choice, and he made it, and Americans died.

Did he do it in order to create a need for contractors that could then gain emergency no-bid contracts of billions of dollars (who would coincidentally be long-time business associates of the vice president)? Did he do it in order to create a need for a new disaster response standard that would then be allowed to have officers who were specifically charged with the protection of corporate intellectual property? Did he do it in order to make a power grab for more executive powers over the National Guard's actions?

You know what? I don't fucking care why he did it. It honestly doesn't mean shit one way or the other why he went out of his way to make the response to Hurricane Katrina a failure. If an American president voluntarily razes an American city, what fucking difference does it make why?

-Frank
PlatonicPimp
Righteous Rage, Frank , but this isn't the place. I think you've made your point, but I'd rather not see this turn into a flamewar over Bush.

So please, Lime, Frank, continue this in a private thread if you must.
ChicagosFinest
Or apply it some way into a creative plot device for a new sourcebook about new Orleans biggrin.gif
SL James
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
They have more in common with Timothy Mcveigh than George Washington.

Aside from quoting Thomas Jefferson so far out of context that it hurts.
BrianL03
QUOTE (ChicagosFinest)
Or apply it some way into a creative plot device for a new sourcebook about new Orleans biggrin.gif

Oh trust me. While I incorporate some of the things SONA says about The Big Easy, I have it as essentially the South's New York, Inc..
ChicagosFinest
Then hows about letting me play with you. You havent answered my email yet biggrin.gif
mfb
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
They have more in common with Timothy Mcveigh than George Washington.

i'd say he resembles Lafayette--attacking Britain by seperating it from its support structure. the only reason we hold Washington in such high regard is that he won. if McVeigh had sparked some revolution that replaced or significantly changed the government, our kids would learn about his heroism in history class. much the way Angela Colloton is a national hero in SR, come to think.
SL James
Why do you hate me so much?
Grinder
He's a shining ball of hate too? Maybe? biggrin.gif
ChicagosFinest
Hug it out fellas biggrin.gif
Grinder
Group hug! biggrin.gif
SL James
QUOTE (Grinder)
He's a shining ball of hate too? Maybe? biggrin.gif

mfb? Hardly.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (mfb)
if McVeigh had sparked some revolution that replaced or significantly changed the government, our kids would learn about his heroism in history class.


No we wouldn't. If McVeigh had managed to spark a revolution against anything it wouldn't have been against the current regime. Remember that even by his own standards, he hit the wrong target. If you buy the "black helicopters filled with jackbooted UN ATF agents are trying to take your guns" line, you've still got to deal with the fact that McVeigh didn't blow up a bunch of helicopters - he destroyed a daycare center.

If armed changes happened it would only have been to crush those who were seen to support McVeigh's activities. Even if a ccunter-counter revolution had occurred, McVeigh would still be a villain, not a hero. McVeigh never could have been a George Washington, though it's possible he could have been a Marinus van der Lubbe.

-Frank
limejello10512
alright alright, but like I said I have a code and you have no idea how hard it is for me not to respond to franks post... :bites fingers....you know cause biting my tongue wouldn't do anyhting cause I'm typing.:

anyway...
- are you sure they leased ares space? I could have sworn they bought it. Though if they did I suppose that does make alot more sense.

-I actually think you may have misterpreted a little bit...they don't want to destroy north American society. They want to rebuild the United states. The whole point of the coup was to destabilize the region to undermine faith in the current governments so as to make their overthrow easier. But the point of that overthrow was to restablish the united states of america. Sure their methods are ruthless but what choice do they have? Bare in mind that threads was written by camptain chaos who wanted anarchy to rain through out america. A ballanced indiviual he aint. Good and evil is all a point of view dependent on on'e political beleifs...based on mine I choose to believe that they're the good guys. regardless I don't see that running the UCAS into the ground would bring them closer to their goal... with them in controll of the territory they can turn it into what ever they like....if they bring it low it would just make it harder form them to rebuild later.

-wiat a second how do you mean they're quoting jefferson out of context?
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