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noneuklid
Yeah, there seems to be some confusion here between 'transparent,' 'unreflective,' 'non-absorbant,' and 'invisible.'

Something that's transparent can't be seen because light passes right through it. This would pose a massive problem for vision, because you need to capture light to see things. This is what would lead to the scenario with an invisible 'van' and visible occupants. Some sort of rule or principle would define what constitutes the 'van,' and the occupants wouldn't qualify, so you couldn't see the van but you could see its contents. Transparency is also the most likely explanation for being inside the van and being unable to see the controls/occupants, if all were rendered equally transparent. A transparent object may or may not be able to emit light from a source (eg, brakelights); I'm not really up on my physics for that, but I suspect the brakelights/headlights/etc would still work (as would any dash lights, which could be kinda freaky). Of course, it's hard to imagine a physical object which is both transparent and possesses the necessary properties to generate light, so, dunno.

Unreflective objects don't reflect any light, and non-absorbant objects don't absorb any. Bending light away from/around an object effectively gives it both properties. Having the first without the second would give you a pitch-black object with a moderate-sized shadowy region about it. Having the latter but not the former would give you a very shiny object, moreso than a mirror (but maybe not 'reflective' in the sense you think of when you think of a mirror, because the light might be reflecting at all crazy angles unless the surface is very smooth). Having either property would make conventional vision for that portion of the electromagnetic spectrum impossible, but hey, this IS magic.

Invisibility is the state of being non-detectable within that range of the spectrum. There are a wide variety of ways to accomplish this; in Ghost in the Shell, we see 'invisible' characters who (unless I misunderstand -- I've only really watched the SAC series, which doesn't go into explanations) accomplish this by simply editing out their existence from other people's perception in realtime, a form of mind/perception control. A godlike technomancer could do this, and would be invisible to anyone with cybereyes and to machines. (Note that a godlike technomancer would probably be able to remotely activate devices which have a wireless connection but aren't set to broadcast. This can already be done to a certain extent using some really crazy electronics, but you need to know certain things about the device you're targeting) A mage could do this and would be invisible to anything with a 'mind.' Alternately, you can have a realtime chameleon effect, where the reflective/absorbant properties are adjusted quickly to perfectly simulate the surrounding environment.

Or you could just define a state 'Magically invisible,' and give it the properties 'cannot be visually detected from the outside.' wink.gif I like this solution, and it's what I use, unless I'm feeling sadistic or humorous enough to do some of the other things described in this thread.
Kesslan
Yeah personally I'd treat it basicaly like an 'advanced' ruthinium coating, at least to a degree. Except that with invisibility your actual speed wont matter as it's not some bit of technology trying to keep up with the constant changes, but simply a magical spell that basically says to what ever it can that 'Umm.. yeah btw. Not here! BYYEEEE!' and then the subconcious response being "Oh.. well ok then. These arent the droids we are looking for."
hyzmarca
QUOTE (noneuklid)
Invisibility is the state of being non-detectable within that range of the spectrum. There are a wide variety of ways to accomplish this; in Ghost in the Shell, we see 'invisible' characters who (unless I misunderstand -- I've only really watched the SAC series, which doesn't go into explanations) accomplish this by simply editing out their existence from other people's perception in realtime, a form of mind/perception control.

In the movie, and possibly the original manga (I've never read it, unfortunately) invisibility was accomplished by ruthenium-style camouflage. Microscopic cameras took pictures of the surroundings and the surface of the camouflage would retransmit these images on the other side. This by the way, also provided Major Kusanagi with an excellent excuse to strip naked. Her anatomically correct cyborg body's skin doubled as optical camouflage so when she had to go on a covert mission she would take off all of her clothes.

However, we really don't know exactly what "bending light" means in this context. It is quite possible that the light is edited in the target's eyes rather than around the subject. This also lets resistance tests make sense. When light enters any optical sensor the Improved Invisibility spell edits that light so that the optical sensor does not notice the target. Otherwise, the light continues as normal.
If you had a non-visual electromagnetic sensor that detects waves that are on the visible spectrum, then the II spell would not effect it (which is canon). The Thermosense Organ, for example, uses the infrared spectrum but is not visual in nature so II does nothing to it. Thermographic vision, on the other hand, is hindered by II even though it uses the same spectrum. The only way to reconcile these facts is that the bending of the light occurs at the target sensor rather than at the subject.
noneuklid
QUOTE
The only way to reconcile these facts is that the bending of the light occurs at the target sensor rather than at the subject.


AT the sensor? Wherever and whenever (relativistically speaking) it may be? Damn, magic is strong!

Dude. I totally just saw Ringyu flash before my eyes.

I agree with your reasoning, but for Ringyu-related concerns (the magic crawling out of the television set, so to speak), I'm probably not going to adopt that sort of explanation. The real reason the thermosense organ and thermographic vision work differently is because the game was written by homo sapiens who have no experience with snake senses, and think that 'touch' (thermographic touch, not pressure/texture tactile functions) and 'sight' (and for that matter 'hearing') are somehow fundamentally distinct. wink.gif
hyzmarca
Since mana invisibility edits the sensory input at the mind of the target, I see no problem with allowing physical invisibility to edit sensory input at the eyes of the target.

The magic through the television problem does not exist at all, because it can't be done by canon. If a television camera records an invisible character then a person can see that character by looking at the recording. If the spell defeats the camera then it it doesn't record anything.
Unless you are looking at the subject of the spell directly with your own eyes while the spell is being sustained you are not a target of the spell.

By the way, the camera also causes problems. If an II spell does not defeat the camera's OR then the camera record the subject as if the spell was not cast at all. This makes no sense if the light bends around the subject but it makes perfect sense if the light is edited in the camera.
noneuklid
But like I said, there are a few relativistic problems with this model, mainly area of effect. As written, the spell affects the physical properties of the character's image. If that's the case, then this will be true no matter how far away the sensor is. If it's not the case, then how far away does the magic 'reach'? Can an orbital camera detect the character automatically? Could a powerful enough sensor on Mars? The rules say no, the spell doesn't have an area of effect. However, if the effect occurs at the sensor, the effect has an area of effect around the character. Are you arguing that magic can have an unlimited AOE? If I can edit the perceptive properties of a sensor at any range, why can't I, say, ignite a sensor at any range instead? The magic's 'crawling out of the box,' it's travelling far beyond the limitations of what it ought to be able to do, under that interpretation.

I'd also like to point out that the rules as written affect whether or not a technological sensor notices the character, not whether or not it records one. That is, I'd say someone watching the film of a camera taping an I.Invis Mage would have to make the perception test, not the camera to record it at all. If there's an automated system linked up to a camera, then it has to make the opposed test in order to 'notice' that the character is an anomaly rather than just a dust pattern or whatnot. In either case, the sensor records the actual effect -- the character's partially visible form -- but how 'noticable' they are to human or technological reactive criteria is dependant on the Opposed Test score. The Object Resistance test is likewise given to the reactive system (not the camera) as a representation of the fact that an object won't be decieved by the same sorts of optical illusions a living being, with its feedback-based perceptive system, would be. Eg, shadows, light changes that alter depth perception, et cetera, won't fool a computer, even though they're purely physical effects.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (noneuklid @ Dec 8 2006, 07:25 AM)
But like I said, there are a few relativistic problems with this model, mainly area of effect.  As written, the spell affects the physical properties of the character's image.  If that's the case, then this will be true no matter how far away the sensor is.  If it's not the case, then how far away does the magic 'reach'?  Can an orbital camera detect the character automatically?  Could a powerful enough sensor on Mars?  The rules say no, the spell doesn't have an area of effect.  However, if the effect occurs at the sensor, the effect has an area of effect around the character.  Are you arguing that magic can have an unlimited AOE? If I can edit the perceptive properties of a sensor at any range, why can't I, say, ignite a sensor at any range instead?  The magic's 'crawling out of the box,' it's travelling far beyond the limitations of what it ought to be able to do, under that interpretation.

Of course the spell does not have an area of effect. The effects of Indirect Illusion spells are based on line-of-sense and line-of-sight in particular.

Magic does not travel along physical paths, it travels on metaphysical threads. Among these threads are material links, sympathetic links, symbolic links, touch and Line-of-Sight. Line of Sight just happens to be the most powerful and most versitile of all of the mystical threads. A magician can cast an LOS spell at anything that he can see. Period. End of sentence.

There is no distance limitation. If a magician has a good telescope and enough successes he could powerbolt Alpha Centauri into oblivion or kill the Red Obsidimen of Mars with Slay Obsidimen spells. Igniting a satellite is a rather trivial task that any magician could do given enough tries and time to rest off drain if he doesn't get it in the first shot. At least, it would be if not of the pesky vacuum making it difficult to sustain a fire. Still, powerbolting a Satellite is quite doable. All you need is a telescope.

Indirect Illusions are cast on a subject, not a target. This is important because anyone who can sense the subject with an effected sense becomes the target and gets to resist that spell. In this way Indirect Illusions are sort of like always-on anchors. While the spell is cast on the subject it is really cast at everyone who senses the subject.

If you look at a subject of Improved Invisibility then you are a target of Improved Invisibility and the magic can reach out and touch you no matter where you are. Even if you are looking at the character from a telescope on Mars. The same is true if the character is a subject of plain old mana Invisibility. The same is true if you have a Line-of-Sound to a character who is the subject of Stealth. The same is true of Mask and Physical Mask and Phantasm and Trid Phantasm and all other Indirect Illusions.
noneuklid
OK, what's the difference between having a spell that makes things not percieve you by editing the input of light at the target sensor and a spell that makes things not percieve you by editing the input of heat at the target such that the sensor bursts into flame?

In other words, we're talking about a Basilisk spell -- something that affects any sensor that happens to pick up the object (not subject) of the spell. That seems to really conflict with how magic works in SR.
hyzmarca
The difference is that a spell that makes things burst into flames wouldn't be an illusion.
And you shouldn't forget that the mana version of the spell does the same thing, it just does the editing in the mind rather than in the eyes.
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