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when i first bought the canon companion, i was thrilled 2 see that they'd included the minigun in the statistics!

but then came the following dissapointment... the minigun fires 15 bullets/round, no more, no less, and it doesn't take barrel mounts!
so my question is: how on earth can this gun ever be fired with even the slightest chance of a hit???

the rules state that all uncompensated recoil modifiers are doubled when dealing with heavy weapons, and the minigun only takes a top and under barrel mount.
i've been through every piece of gear in the books, but there was no recoil compensating accesories that could be top barrel mounted. so my conclution was that you could only use one single recoil compensating accesory for the minigon (an under barrel mount), which makes it impossible to get a recoil comensation that would even make a difference!
you can't hit anything with this sucker! how can that be??? there must be some use for this weapon...

help, please...
The way the SR system applies recoil to the entire burst makes it useless. Sorry, it's just a problem with the game mechanic.
On the otherhand, wouldn't it be a huge pain in the butt to roll the first bullet, then, add 2 to the TN and roll the second bullet, then add 2 more and roll the third bullet, etc etc etc?
A foregrip can be top mounted. Then again, It already has a top grip, so the only time in which it could be used would be with an articulated arm.

Gyro units seem like the most logical way of handling the minigun. If you can get a Troll with a strength of 19, you get an extra -3 recoil comp. SO, cyberarm(19 strength = -3 recoil) + maxgyro (-7 recoil) That gives you 10 points of recoil comp right there. Only 5 more to go.

5 more points lets see.

Articulated arm + foregrip = Hmm the rules dont say you can use an articulated arm for recoil stabalizing on anything larger then a light machine gun. Let me direct you to the picture on page 34 of the CC. What is that I see? An articulated arm gripping a forgrip on the assault cannon?

Hmm lets look at teh other options.

Hip pads. 1 point.

How about mounting it onto a vehicle? eek.gif
well, i was sort'a hoping for some good advice on how to change these follish game mechanics (at least make an exception for the minigun).

and a foregrip only gives 1 point of RC, so it makes virtually no difference (but thanks for pointing it out anyway).
so with a max gyro, a foregrip and a troll's strength, you can muster a total of 9 points of RC, with the remaining 6 to be doubled...
Use supressive fire...
Although the "no barrel accessories" makes a certain amount of sense...

well, my point is that a minigun kicks major @$$, correct?
but the game mechanics don't display this quallity of the weapon, so i'm looking for creative solutions to make it a more respectable weapon in combat (like it's supposd to be).
I guess you could have barrel mounts, as long as you get 6 of them.... And it would be heavy, 6X the weight. Canon seems reasonable though.
Digital Heroin
Two words: Gyro Stabalization

Next thing you're going to ask to be ableo to run around with it in on hand, and a coffin in the other like the Governator... it's meant to be a big nasty pain in the ass to use my friend, but a gyro harness'll help ease the pain... biggrin.gif
I think the general concensus was the man-portable minigun is a fun toy, but really (really) impractical from a logistics point of view.

The amount of ammo you have to haul around makes it logistically complicated (never mind "Predator").

The weight and while I can't speak to the recoil never having fired one before, I would imagine it proves difficult for a large majority of troops.

The anti-vehicle role it's designed to play can be accomplished better by other weapons.

You might ask Ray for a more informed opinion on the viability of the thing.

If you hose multiple targets, then you will have a chance of hitting the first few you shoot at.

As well, can't you mount it on a vehicle? I was under the impression that vehicle mounting was a superior way of reducing recoil.
i've already mentioned the gyro stabilisation unit, and it doesn't give much recoil compensation compared to the weapons huge firing rate....
that is unless i've overlooked some aspect of the gyro mount... ohplease.gif

and i'm not asking for much. in fact, all i'm asking for is to reduce the recoil at any costs. i don't care if the gun has to be mounted on a tank, just as long as it can actually be considered useful in any given combat situation, like all the other weapons in SR...

but i liked the idea buzzed came up with.
and also, i had forgotten that you could spread the rain of bullets among several targets. but still, this doesn't set the weapon much apart in power than so many other cheaper weapons.

and finally, El_Machinae, i've checked the possibilities of mounting one on a vehicle, and the best result is to have the recoil halfed, which still leaves 7 points uncompensated (and i don't think it's plausible to make use of a vehicle mount and a gyro unti at the same time).
Become a rigger and use a drone that you use for legs and stabalizing while you fire at things. A combat wheelchair for miniguns if you will.

Hmm, a mobilized version of the Max-gyro, that moves with you like a 3rd leg on a wheel, to eliminate the movement penalty. love.gif SOTA is calling it's name.
John Campbell
QUOTE (kenny26)
and finally, El_Machinae, i've checked the possibilities of mounting one on a vehicle, and the best result is to have the recoil halfed, which still leaves 7 points uncompensated (and i don't think it's plausible to make use of a vehicle mount and a gyro unti at the same time).

You can put up to nine points of recoil adjustment on a vehicle hardpoint. The hardpoint also halves recoil, so that should be quite sufficient.

And remember, the guy in Predator fired the thing dry without actually doing anything but shredding some foliage...
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, a minigun is a heavy weapon, and as such suffers 2X uncompensated recoil. So sticking it on a vehicule still leaves you with +15 modifier. Otherwise, you're looking at +30. Fun, neh?
I'm pretty sure the 2x recoil for heavy weapons is only a factor if the weapon isn't on a tripod or mounted on a vehicle.
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
The way the SR system applies recoil to the entire burst makes it useless. Sorry, it's just a problem with the game mechanic.

Just use suppressive fire rules. 15 rounds are great for suppressive fire, especially when they have more punch than Supermachs.
Max Gyro (7) + Troll Str (3) + Foregrip (1) + Hip pad (1)

Where exactly do people say that it already has a foregrip? Am I missing something?

Anyway: with this setup you could quite easily spit out two 16D bursts (on TNs 2 and 4 if you count a smartlink) and let the other three bullets fly wild. You don't have to shoot all the bullets at the same target, you don't even need to shoot all of the bullets at targets. Say you're aiming to get the first 9 on one target and you don't care about the rest; 21D is definately nasty and possible for the meager sum of 30:nuyen: in bullets.

Suppressive Fire is also your friend.
I don't think that you can fire the minigun in bursts. It's all or nothing.
mounting a weapon on a vehicle negates the double uncomp recoil mod for heavy weapons, according to R3. if you're silly enough to want to lug it around on foot, i'd reccomend an advanced gyromount (7 RC), a cyberarm gyro (3 RC), hip pads (1 RC), barrel weight (1 RC), and high strength (1-3 RC). this should easily be sufficient.

if you're looking for alternate autofire rules, try this: calculate the TN without recoil mods. then, subtract the full recoil mod from the highest die you rolled, and add the amount of recoil compensation. this tells you how many rounds struck the target (up to the number fired); adjust the damage level accordingly, then stage according to how many of the highest die you rolled.

for instance, if i fire a full-auto burst from an AK-97 with 4 skill and 4 RC, i might roll a 4, a 2, an 8, and an 8 (lucky shot!). 8 is my highest roll; from it, i subtract the full recoil (10 rounds, 10 points of recoil) and come up with -2. then, i add my recoil comp of 4, and come up with 2. therefore, 2 rounds have hit the target; my burst does 10M damage, staged up by successes to 10S.
You can use the optional rule for trace fire with the gun. Which makes it a suporior hitting tool.

You can mount it on a tripod.

I think it might be possible to apply both a tripod and the gyro stabilizer to the thing as well. I mean using the gyro stabilizer as a top mounted accessory, I see the thing as a surrounding the entire weapon accessory from most pictures and the game calls it a bottom, so I don't know why you couldn't possibly reverse it. It works on gyroscopic motion so being above shouldn't be hard to configure correctly for the weapon, it is not like it works on gravition or some such thing. I guess it is the GMs decision.

Next as people have been saying suppressive fire.

For those that want to know a bit about suppressive fire and searching fire I refer to you to cannon companion pg 106, 107 and103 respectively.

Note: Though I understand some of the physics behind it I'm not pretending or trying to make anyone believe that I have actually used firearms in anyway. Thus I am not a great authority on these matters.
yeah, tracers are also a big help. -1 TN per 3 rounds fired. you can also use phosphorus ammo, to make up for the lower damage of tracer rounds. nasty, those.
You're all forgetting about the supressive fire rules. Recoil doesn't matter on that, nor does skill. All that matters is how much ammo you can send downrange, and the miniguns are very good at that.
skill matters somewhat. after all, you still have to roll, and at +2 TN; even at short range, you still need some skill to hit anything.
MFB's system is interesting, but it makes it even less likely that you are going to hit with more than one bullet when unloading large amounts of lead at a target.

I like the idea of using the highest die rolled as this is something ignored in most SR tests. If I'm GMing and a player rolls 6 after 6 after 6 then it feels a bit of a shame to let the roll go to waste. I'd usually just tell them they look particularily cool while they do whatever it is.
In my games (dont know if this is canon or not, been using it so long) if you tripod mount something it no longer counts as a heavy weapon for recoil rules. Well if you use tracers and fire the full 15 thats -5 to the tn, use a tripod (-6), foregrip(-1), custom grips (-1) and a smartlink (-2) HEY YOUR AT EVEN TN TO HIT!.

QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 26 2003, 09:53 PM)
a cyberarm gyro (3 RC),

Cyberarm gyros can only work upto light machine guns. (in other words 1 handed guns)
It all boils down to the Max Gyro. Remember. You dont have to hit alot with it, as long as you hit. So the uncompinsated recoil is really not that much of an issue.

1 success is all you need to turn a target into a swiss cheese pulp pudding. The chances of resisting a 22D damage with 1 success is almost impossible. If they do get 2 successes, it would require ALOT of armor and body to do so. Even then they would be at severe damage.

Remember the other drawback though. The knockdown on this gun really hurts the user, so keep some stim patches handy when you use it. rotfl.gif
Seems the common arrangement would be max gyro (RC 7), Custom Grip (RC 1), Hip pad (RC 1), Foregrip (RC 1, for a troll), Strength 12+ (RC 2). That leaves you with 3 points of recoil, doubling to a +6 modifier. Your tracer rounds drop it to +1. You can't get a tracer benefit with smartlink, so ignore it, the -5 is way better and get vision mag 3 cyberware to compensate.

Now, you're firing a weapon at +1 TN to hit, for 17D and a dodge TN of 9. What else could you want?
Mephisto, Cray, and Cain are all correct. Use supressive fire. Miniguns, quite simply, cannot be aimed short of vehicle mounts, gyro stabilization, tracer rounds, high strength, and a whole lot else. In real life, miniguns are not aimed, they are pointed. You don't aim at your enemy, you just point it in his general direction and wave it around a little. This is the tactic that the supressive fire rules represent quite well.
The rules aren't bad, some people just use the wrong one in the wrong situation. The only trick is knowing when to switch over.
Seriously, look at the supressive fire rules, with 15 bullets, you can do pretty effective damage over a VERY wide arc, and in the right situations, geek/wound a LOT of people, WAY more than with aiming (+2/second target)
hmmm, come to think of it, it's been a long time since my players were at the wrong end of one of those things....
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Buzzed @ Oct 27 2003, 05:40 PM)
Cyberarm gyros can only work upto light machine guns. (in other words 1 handed guns)

Teeheehee, he called LMGs "1 handed guns" biggrin.gif
Rules-wise, you are probably correct, or at least should be. The image is just a bit funny, unless that's "1 handed guns for Trolls".

As for how to make full auto more useful with such weapons, cap recoil at some point. Put a limit to what is the maximum modifier to hit from recoil. Say, +10. It's a bit silly that recoil can make hitting so much more difficult than shooting blind.

If you want to stick to canon, go the way of the TwinkerGnome. notworthy.gif

[Edit]The problem with Suppressive Fire is that RL miniguns will KILL people DEAD, even if you just point them in the general direction of the enemies and wave them around a little.

The RL equivalent of SR Suppressive Fire Miniguns is locking a minigun the slowest possible RoF (2000rpm, generally) and squeezing off a short burst (somewhat under a second in length, ~33rpsec but it takes a short while to accelerate) while swinging the minigun around insanely fast, trying your best not to get more than 1 bullet land on any square foot.

SR Suppressive Fire certainly is useful, and I'm not trying to say it's a complete bust. It works. It's just that it's a bit of a turn-off when you never manage to rip the enemy apart, but only do some rather small amount of damage. You certainly will get that small amount of damage through quite often, but what fun are miniguns if you can't rip people apart?[/Edit]
small caliber Miniguns are really nice as a micro CWIS for tanks. If they can get the ROF down to around 1000 RPM, it can double as an anti-infantry mount.
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Buzzed @ Oct 27 2003, 05:40 PM)
Cyberarm gyros can only work upto light machine guns. (in other words 1 handed guns)

Teeheehee, he called LMGs "1 handed guns" biggrin.gif

Oops. Me bad. embarrassed.gif
austere, that's true if you're trying to cover a 15-meter area. a better use might be to cover a 3-meter area, 5 rounds per meter. this way, there's almost no way in hell a character will be able to dodge completely (though it's annoying that he'll only get tagged by one round).
I got a question about supressive fire. Couldn't I just declare that with said Minigun that I am going to do supressive fire in a 2 meter arc (the meter of the guy I want to shoot, and the meter area next to him) and then hit him (unless he rolls 7 successes on a dodge test), and with a smartlink just roll skill against TN 4 for staging ?

If that is the case, then FA fire is amazing.
smartlink bonuses don't apply to suppessive fire. the only mods that do, officially, are cover and wounds (note that vis mag is not a modifier per se; it adjusts the base TN, and therefore does apply). unofficially, Rob says that modifiers for defaulting ought to also apply.
ok, now i see quite alot of options that it'd overlooked before...
well, the suppresive fire and many recoil compensators would make the minigun a useful weapon.

and what Austere says about putting a limit to the recoil is also true. i never thought of it that way. how can it be so much more difficult to hit a target than firing blind?
well, this is all useful and i'll take your suggestions into consideration. smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
Motorfirebox, exactly. You'll only every hit with one round. That's why I used the 1 round per sq ft analogy. ~11 sq ft in a square meter, or ~43 in an area 2 x 2 meters square, so there'd still be about 28 square feet of bullet-free area in the average Suppressive Fire area. But, IRL, you could easily have put 4.5 bullets in each sq ft of that area in 3 seconds with any old minigun (though the distribution would certainly not be that even).
true. that's why i prefer my house autofire rules, though i'll be damned if i can remember exactly how they work. maybe it was: subtract the full recoil mod from the highest die rolled, then add the value of your recoil comp and the original TN?, then, you stage by the number of high rolls you made; if you hit with the maximum number of rounds, all dice that equal or exceed the TN + recoil - recoil comp are used to stage. lemme see:

range Medium, 14-round burst, 8 points RC, 6 skill, smartlink-2. TN is 5 (range) -2 (SL) = 3. let's say i roll 1, 5, 2, 9, 3, 3. that would leave me with (high roll 9 -14 recoil +8 RC +3 TN) = 6 rounds hit. yeah, that makes sense. this way, recoil doesn't interfere with your chance to get the first round on target, and you're rewarded for rolling higher.

as a bonus, i raise the dodge TN based on the total number of rounds in the burst, not just the ones that hit--after all, it's not like the bullets that miss just disappear. this helps mitigate the hit you take on your successes (since you don't often come up with two or more of your highest result).
The long and the short of it is Vidicator Miniguns are ment to be mounted on vehicles. 'Old Painless' used in Predator (and the basis of the Vindicator) is a General Electric Minigun off the side of a helicopter.
The USA army looked at making one (they said 'cool what a great support weapon') but found that to hold enough ammo to make the weapon tacticaly viable you had to be Mungo the Super Soldier (not to mention the gun and batteries...).
The other main obstical was that the ejecting shells tended to eviserate the user (not a problem with caseless rounds in SR).
Past that I am a HUGE fan of rotating barrels. If it spin'n I'm grin'n.
If you want a squad based mini gun get a smithy to make one that spews out light pistol or pistol rounds. This weapon would be about the size of an chunky assult rifle and wouldn't have the double recoil rule attached. Geek'n good fun.
I made one called the Viper (following on the 'V' name pattern). A decent helix feed should hold about 80 - 120 pistol sized rounds, heavy but fun.

Just remember the vidicator basicly takes a similar caliber round to a sporting rifle (both are 7S). These are BIG rounds kiddies, bigger than assult rifle rounds!! Think 7.62 mimimum.

Also be careful of the six barrels with six modifications. Man who fire minigun with six weighted barrels feeeeeeeels the gyroscopic force.
A'ight, my nuyen.gif .02. RL GE Miniguns are 7.62 NATO or 5.56 NATO in caliber, with a cyclic rate of about 6,000 rounds per minute. NO FRAGGING WAY ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE IT MAN PORTABLE. PERIOD, DOT, END. They mounted the fraggers on Huey's in Vietnam, one on each side sponson, and they visibly slowed the chopper down while firing.

My use for Vindicators? My rigger's got a naval variant of the Stallion (Bigger gas tanks!), with a Vindicator in a chin turret. 2000 rounds of AV in the hopper and the thing becomes a fairly effective anti vehicular weapon. Drop a couple Great Dragons under the belly for good measure. They make wonderful AA or aerially mounted weapons. Occasionally, they're okay when mounted in a turret on a vehicle. For my land vehicles, I just use a pair of Ingram Valiants. Cheaper, just as effective, and easier to feed. Granted, there is something just intimidating about that *WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRR...* that makes enemies soil their britches. But mostly, the Vindicator is an odd curio with little practical value. Go for LMGs, MMGs, or HMGs... If you want serious AV capability, get an assault cannon. Buy an Ares Vigorous, put it in a turret, and smartlink the damn thing. Only one shot at a time, but DAMN it's a big one. And if you're a half decent shot, you'll hit your target...
QUOTE (Jonah)
Also be careful of the six barrels with six modifications.  Man who fire minigun with six weighted barrels feeeeeeeels the gyroscopic force.

Shweet! A built-in gyro-stabilisation unit wink.gif

Anyway: I don't see why the gun couldn't mount 6 gas vents and recieve the modifiers as-if it had one.
Austere Emancipator

Man, maybe not. Troll, hell yeah. The RL XM214 5.56x45 NATO minigun weighed 15kg empty. 2000 rounds of 5.56x45 NATO ammunition will weigh, what, 25kg? And then there's the battery, which'll weigh a few kg (shouldn't more than 2-3kg in the 2060s). Caseless ammunition would cut down the ammunition weight by a lot. The RoF can be cranked up to 10,000rpm (on the XM214, yeah that's 500 rounds per Combat Turn), but it can certainly limited to some semi-low figures, like 2000-4000rpm (the M134 7.62x51 NATO miniguns mounted on choppers are already limited to those, AFAIK).

That would mean a weapon weighing ~30kg, tops, with 2000 ready rounds, enough for 1 minute (or 30 seconds at 4000rpm) of fully automatic fire. No problem at all for a troll. At 2000rpm, the recoil shouldn't be bad at all, since the weapon weighs twice as much as a LMG, and fires at twice the RoF. At 4000rpm, it might get a bit worse, but certainly nothing a troll couldn't handle.

This is all purely theoretical house-rule-rambling, since by canon it can never be done. The RoF will get totally f***ed, limited to 300rpm in most situations. Ammunition will weigh 5kg/100, or 100kg for 2000, unless you get APDS which weighs 50kg for 2000. And then there's the "heavy weapon" x2 uncomp recoil bullshit, even though you'd hardly even notice any recoil IRL at such a pitifully low RoF and with such heavy weapon (assuming you're firing AR rounds; you might actually feel a slight trembling of the weapon with rifle rounds).

Thus, reasonably, you COULD make a metahuman-portable minigun, and it would be semi-useful. But, with SR canon rules, there's no reason to go through the trouble, because miniguns are nerfed.

You could probably make a 6kg minigun, however. Seeing as how the RoF is so incredibly low (only a bit over 1 shot per barrel per second for a 4-barrel configuration), the barrels could be extremely light. The electric motor to rotate them could then be very light as well. Since it wouldn't have to endure much punishment or the huge forces acting on a RL minigun, it could be made out of very light parts overall. A realistic estimate of total weight of such a weapon (4- or 3-barrel minigun firing LMG ammunition at 300rpm), battery and all, would be well under 10kg. Probably ~8kg by the 2060s. Add a reasonable amount of ammunition, like 300 APDS rounds (good for one minute), and you're still at ~15kg.
I still think that even at 2000 rpm the recoil would tear the arms off the average troll...
Austere Emancipator
Wrong. Why would you think so? Loads of LMGs fire 1000rpm, like the KK62 I've fired several times. The M249 SAW can also fire 1000rpm. The minigun in question weighs twice that, and fires twice that. Basically, it's the same as if you taped 2 M249s together and fired them at the same time. There are plenty of stories about trolls firing LMGs single handed. In fact, I bet there are plenty of people in the US army who have fired the M249 single handed (though they probably didn't hit shit).

2000rpm with a minigun firing AR/LMG ammo would NOT tear off the arms of any SR character, except maybe an albino otaku 11-year-old girl with all Phys stats at 1. The average man would be quite capable of firing it. The accuracy would suck, and firing it on the move might be extremely hard. But for a troll, it should present absolutely zero problems. Even at 4000rpm. I mean, they weigh 3+ times as much as average humans (and reasonably they should weigh even more than that, see How Much Did You Say He Weighed in the TSS archives).

Now, if this was a minigun firing cannon rounds, or even HMG rounds, then sure, the troll would be in a world of hurt. But it doesn't, so he wouldn't.
Hm. Don't have my books with me, but just wanna check:

The minigun still lets you break shots down into 3 round bursts, right? I thought it was only the high-velocity weapons (with max full auto of 18) that required a minimum of 6 round bursts...

With the minigun, I can picture getting off the +3 and the +6 shot with proper recoil mods.. perhaps even the +9 if you are really good, or vehicle mounted... Beyond that, though, the remaining shots would be wasted walking, or just flung out to lower your magazone, or cause collateral damage...

Ever since going on a minigun-viewing spree with Bull, I've never thought that there is a practical man-portable minigun, especially if one does not at least mount it on a tripod or gyro stabilizer. This is not a weapon you are going to lug around with you to the ultra-secret stealth areas.

Also: hitting a car wouldn't be terribly hard with it, no? I mean, miniguns are meant to shred vehicles first and foremost, right?

*grumbles about not having his rules on him*

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
2000rpm with a minigun firing AR/LMG ammo would NOT tear off the arms of any SR character, except maybe an albino otaku 11-year-old girl with all Phys stats at 1.

Hey leave her out of it!! What did she ever do to you? biggrin.gif

Besides she has a quickness of 3 nyahnyah.gif

John Campbell
QUOTE (Backgammon)
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, a minigun is a heavy weapon, and as such suffers 2X uncompensated recoil. So sticking it on a vehicule still leaves you with +15 modifier. Otherwise, you're looking at +30. Fun, neh?

Yeah, if you don't bother with any recoil compensation. But, as I pointed out, you can put up to nine points of recoil adjustment on a hardpoint. Now, the doubling is applied to uncompensated recoil... and the halved recoil from the fixed weapons mount is applied before recoil compensation from accessories.

So we have 15 recoil from the minigun. This is halved by the hardpoint... 7.5, rounded down to 7. The hardpoint can have up to 9 points of recoil adjust, which gets us down to -2. That means that all recoil is compensated, which means there's nothing for the "heavy weapon" modifier to double. So, no recoil modifier, and we've even got a couple points of RC left over...

IIRC, every example in the book says that the vehicle halving of recoil cancells out the doubling of uncompensated recoil.. So that 9 would be taken from the 15 total...

QUOTE (Manual Gunnery @ P151, SR3)
For weapons mounted on fixed vehicle mounts and turrets, reduce recoil by half (rounded down) before applying recoil compensation provided by weapon accessories.

IE you only need 7 points of RC to completely cancel the recoil from a 15-round autofire burst from a heavy weapon. There is no uncompensated recoil so there is no doubbling.
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